"I can't beat him" is a horrible arguement
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Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.
- Thread starter Marc
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Emperor Time
Smash Lord
Do you guys think MK hinders ones ability to grow as a player?
Nintendevil
Smash Ace
I can't believe people still need reasoning for this. Everyone should know the ups and downs of both sides by now, it's a matter of what you think outweighs which.
ShadowLink84
Smash Hero
That is not the point of what I said.
The fact of the matter is that the argument of saying "wait until it hurts us" is NOT a valid argument.
That is the point of my argument. if you cannot understand this simple argument, do not reply. Thank you.
You just said earlier that you must take into account only the behavior of top level players.
Hence my reply.
Let alone dominance means little. Ally is top, m2k is top. The dominance of one person doesnt change the fact that he encounters a top player that may break the dominance.
Which is hardly a necessity unless the argument has a logical fallacy.
Cannot see? How so?
You just said earlier it was irrelevant so obviously there must be a reason.
Course not, base inductive reasoning is perfect and not flawed.
We shall wait for a human being to start ****** with Akuma before we ban.
We should wait for the IDC to be used at tournaments before we ban it, rather than ban it on the argument that it is an impossible to monitor stall.
The U.S. metagame has ALWAYS remained seperated from the Japanese metagame. We didnt use the evidence of Japan's tournaments primarily because the development of US and Japanese Metagame tends to be very different.brawl is an example.
So we didn't have much evidence from tournaments from the U.S.
Akuma's legs are invincible when he kicks.
Most of Akuma's combos dizzy resulting in 0-death.
He can kill you simply by chip damage.
Other characters cannot deal with it.
Based on these characteristics, do you believe we need to test Akuma's abilities in order to prove him being broken?
Again I refer to the OHKO character who kills you with a button press. Do you need to test that characters abilities to ban him?
Your idea of theory places mindgames and theory ont he same level. What if's and what not.
This is not true.
Science is based mostly on theory. It is supported theory. Evolution, gravity, light, momentum etc etc.
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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No?? Why would he?
noradseven
Smash Lord
Okay guys Ill stop being a trollish, here is an important question.
Why do you play brawl???
now sit there and think about this question.
Personally I play brawl to have fun and relax after a long college/work week, then go to tourneys some weekends to hang out and have fun.
Now when you are playing the game why don't you like metaknight?
A)because he beats your character and it just irks you to lose, especially when the other player isn't as good as you.
B) he makes the game totally boring because you are being totally ***** the whole match, and there is nothing you can do.
If its A play MK, or just get over yourself darn it.
If its B I can understand alot more I would suggest trying to pick a character who isn't balls at the match but it always sucks to have to play a different person because of one guy. Ohh wait odds are your character also gets totally ***** by one of the other top tier characters quite badly too, there are a few exceptions.
If you play to win and make money or prove how much more badass you are then your friends than play MK to win money, and play ganondorf to prove your manhood problem solved.
Also if your getting ***** by random MK secondaries odds the match is ballz or you don't know the match.
Why do you play brawl???
now sit there and think about this question.
Personally I play brawl to have fun and relax after a long college/work week, then go to tourneys some weekends to hang out and have fun.
Now when you are playing the game why don't you like metaknight?
A)because he beats your character and it just irks you to lose, especially when the other player isn't as good as you.
B) he makes the game totally boring because you are being totally ***** the whole match, and there is nothing you can do.
If its A play MK, or just get over yourself darn it.
If its B I can understand alot more I would suggest trying to pick a character who isn't balls at the match but it always sucks to have to play a different person because of one guy. Ohh wait odds are your character also gets totally ***** by one of the other top tier characters quite badly too, there are a few exceptions.
If you play to win and make money or prove how much more badass you are then your friends than play MK to win money, and play ganondorf to prove your manhood problem solved.
Also if your getting ***** by random MK secondaries odds the match is ballz or you don't know the match.
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
I suppose you could say that, seeing as MK plays don't have to deal with uphill battles.
I don't know if I would put it that way, though.
I would say he helps because people will think of new strategies to beat him
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
lolol. a story on how to cp
Ganondorf_the_King
Smash Apprentice
I don't play compeitive Brawl anymore, but when I did oh god I wanted this mofo banned
My name is Tyr. I main Lucas and have been playing SSBB competitively since last summer. I recently have used Metaknight as a secondary in tournaments in a few sets. I attend tournaments relatively often throughout the states of Ohio, Indiana and Kentucky. I have attended multiple Midwest Circuit events and am aware of and up to date with the current metagame. I play against and with Overswarm at smashfests and tournaments. In fact, he knocked me into loser's brackets just last week at a tournament in Kentucky. I have read the entirety of the pro-ban's side in this thread.
As a player in what is almost undeniably the least Metaknight saturated region, the midwest, I have watched Metaknight be beaten time and time again by different characters played by better players. Lain, Ally and Anther as obvious examples have shown us just how Metaknight can be beaten. Lain and Ally have both beaten M2K, the best Metaknight player in the world, with Ice Climbers and Snake respectively. More recently, I watched Overswarm himself be beaten by a Marth player and then a Snake player back to back in a tournament using his Metaknight. Metaknight is beatable. This has been proven time and time again.
This discussion is not about what the community wants. This is about what the competitive community wants. Don't be fooled into thinking this poll is so that the pro-bans can use the voice of the people to make this game better for everyone. We all know that a lot of people that don't know anything about real competitive smash are going to cast votes on here. And we also know that it's much easier to believe that a character is overpowered at first glance than to realize he is simply the best character in the game (which there inevitably is one) and that there are ways to beat him. The pro-ban side has done a great job of taking advantage of people who don't know enough to make educated decisions. Just watch that recovery video if you don't understand what I mean.
Please, if you do not go to tournaments, if you have not kept up with the metagame, if you don't even play this game, don't vote.
There will always be a best character in the game. What you have to consider is whether you want to learn how to beat this character or just give up and ban him. Are you going to do the same when Snake dominates?
I hope people get a chance to read this and I respect your decision, whatever it may be, as long as it is educated. As a low tier main and a player who gets beaten by Metaknight players because he has work to do on the matchup, because he is an overall less experienced player than his opponent, and because he is generally outplayed, I vote against the ban.
As a player in what is almost undeniably the least Metaknight saturated region, the midwest, I have watched Metaknight be beaten time and time again by different characters played by better players. Lain, Ally and Anther as obvious examples have shown us just how Metaknight can be beaten. Lain and Ally have both beaten M2K, the best Metaknight player in the world, with Ice Climbers and Snake respectively. More recently, I watched Overswarm himself be beaten by a Marth player and then a Snake player back to back in a tournament using his Metaknight. Metaknight is beatable. This has been proven time and time again.
This discussion is not about what the community wants. This is about what the competitive community wants. Don't be fooled into thinking this poll is so that the pro-bans can use the voice of the people to make this game better for everyone. We all know that a lot of people that don't know anything about real competitive smash are going to cast votes on here. And we also know that it's much easier to believe that a character is overpowered at first glance than to realize he is simply the best character in the game (which there inevitably is one) and that there are ways to beat him. The pro-ban side has done a great job of taking advantage of people who don't know enough to make educated decisions. Just watch that recovery video if you don't understand what I mean.
Please, if you do not go to tournaments, if you have not kept up with the metagame, if you don't even play this game, don't vote.
There will always be a best character in the game. What you have to consider is whether you want to learn how to beat this character or just give up and ban him. Are you going to do the same when Snake dominates?
I hope people get a chance to read this and I respect your decision, whatever it may be, as long as it is educated. As a low tier main and a player who gets beaten by Metaknight players because he has work to do on the matchup, because he is an overall less experienced player than his opponent, and because he is generally outplayed, I vote against the ban.
FB Dj_Iskascribble
Frostbitten
you cant say out of 36 characters because only like 10 will win. mk or no low tier will NOT win
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Why do people keep on posting the same thing over and over! >_>
noradseven
Smash Lord
IDK I thought mine was p. new.
POKE40
Smash Lord
I say nay!
It makes a great tournament climatic battle
cough*
M2K vs Ally
<3 MK
It makes a great tournament climatic battle
cough*
M2K vs Ally
<3 MK
vato_break
Smash Master
i like how everyone ignored Bob$'s post
shlike
Smash Ace
Brawl's metagame is pretty much summed up by this statement.
I personally have fallen victim to losing a set because of my opponent goes mk.
I personally don't do it out of principle, but If I were strictly playing to win I would go mk in a heartbeat.
As previously stated by all 9234893849834 people on this thread, mk has NO badmatchups, destroys the counterpick system, essentially has unlimited recovery, and can plank. It seems like metaknight invented planking.
Mk is NOT unbeatable, however he cheapens the game so much to a point that this thread has been created.
I vote ban.
Nintendevil
Smash Ace
Because not everyone has seen the full side of each argument. As I said a few seconds ago, there are ups and downs to both side. Seeing as Metaknight has not been banned for an increasing amount of time, and nothing's changed, I think banning him will at least give us an INSIGHT as to how things develop if he was gone.
And a side question: How many of you would quit (permanently, or until he returned), if MK was banned?
Famous
Smash Champion
Low tiers win/place high on many occasions...Just not in RC's/Nationals...yet
Nintendevil
Smash Ace
But you can do the same with any character >_>
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
I'll admit...i liked this post even though I am pro ban and still am.
I just look at it this way regardless of whether or not he is "beatable" a good 75% of the community looks at like this "well, if i cant beat mk...i'll use him!" and its that competitive play that is destroying this game and this character is a key reason why so many people have either quit or do not play this game.
Unless you are a top level player, you are not beating a good MK.
I believe it is also important to look at mid level play of this game too because a good 80% of us in here that are casting our votes are not top level players. and obviously mid level play is being considered because our votes matter and im very thankful for that.
Basically, people should stop being ****ing stupid and read the proposed arguments and make an actual valid decision and not take this as a joke.
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Yours is new but everyone else is not. Ive been reading this since page one since I just got on the brawl boards when this thread was put up. But people keep on wrighting the same thing over and over and its pissing me off
.
noradseven
Smash Lord
I have won both ganon and random in small local tournies 20some ppl of random skill(mostly not tourny goers), I'm sorry but really only big state tournies and nationals really show more accurate results.
Akuma was banned without ANY debate, and yet, a year later, there is still a TON of debate here.
Aside from that, you using Akuma as an example is severely flawed. Akuma was known to be awfully broken, and thus the pros agreed that he was bannable. There was prior evidence. For MK? He can't spam one move to win against anybody who places out of pools. He is outspaced and out prioritized on several moves by other high-tier characters. He is not an Akuma in that most of the cast is 100-0d by him. You're trying to make a comparison that isn't viable because the two things you're comparing are too radically different.
I believe my wording is typically more along the lines of "The top level of the metagame" i.e. not taking into account random 13 person tourneys in the middle of Oklahoma that have nobody known in them where Links and Captain Falcons run rampant. I never said that only top players were viable subjects for gathering data on this.
hungrybox
Smash Legend
I'm anti-ban.
Never has a character been banned from smash...
It should stay that way.
MK is quite beatable.....
Never has a character been banned from smash...
It should stay that way.
MK is quite beatable.....
If he's not unbeatable, that means he has flaws right? Why should he be banned if he has flaws?
En.Ee.Oh
Smash Champion
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LMAO I just realized your name is hungrybox.. Man.. what the **** is a hungrybox?! I've been casually saying it for so long but like... what the ****?
Sosuke
Smash Obsessed
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You think something can only be banned if it has NO flaws?
Remzi
formerly VaBengal
All you need to look at is air camping.
It is an essentially broken tactic that is impossible to limit.
What are we gonna do, limit air time the way we did with edge grabs? So stupid. We've made enough rules JUST to keep MK viable, when are people going to realize that he is simply TOO GOOD compared to the rest of the characters.
If you have to put several rules in place, just to keep him from 95-5ing everyone, there is clearly a problem. And now with air camping, there isn't really much we can do.
If the SBR doesn't ban him, the community itself will. Because we are ****ing tired of it all.
It is an essentially broken tactic that is impossible to limit.
What are we gonna do, limit air time the way we did with edge grabs? So stupid. We've made enough rules JUST to keep MK viable, when are people going to realize that he is simply TOO GOOD compared to the rest of the characters.
If you have to put several rules in place, just to keep him from 95-5ing everyone, there is clearly a problem. And now with air camping, there isn't really much we can do.
If the SBR doesn't ban him, the community itself will. Because we are ****ing tired of it all.
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
We should all stop posting.
This post summed up everything.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972056&postcount=857
This post summed up everything.
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7972056&postcount=857
Before anyone brings up Akuma again, consider this.
Generally, Akuma and MK is a bad comparison because Akuma 90:10'd his whole cast. But...has anyone considered the cast of HD Remix?
In Street Fighter II HD Remix, Akuma was REBALANCED (by David Sirlin himself, hired by Capcom) to be a playable character, intended to be tournament legal.
He ended up having no bad matchups, but still being beatable and not even winning every tournament.
The SF community fought for months. Several anti MK ban smash players like AlphaZealot were arguing against banning him too.
In the end- the SF community banned him, and he was banned at Evo. And David Sirlin SUPPORTED this.
A major player wrote:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170255
Street Fighter II HD Remix Akuma == Metaknight?
Generally, Akuma and MK is a bad comparison because Akuma 90:10'd his whole cast. But...has anyone considered the cast of HD Remix?
In Street Fighter II HD Remix, Akuma was REBALANCED (by David Sirlin himself, hired by Capcom) to be a playable character, intended to be tournament legal.
He ended up having no bad matchups, but still being beatable and not even winning every tournament.
The SF community fought for months. Several anti MK ban smash players like AlphaZealot were arguing against banning him too.
In the end- the SF community banned him, and he was banned at Evo. And David Sirlin SUPPORTED this.
A major player wrote:
http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170255
Street Fighter II HD Remix Akuma == Metaknight?
SnowballBob33
Smash Ace
amen my brother. say it loud for all the whiny *****es who cant just man up and beat him. we need a voice too.
(its sad cuz i dont even kno if im being sarcastic anymore)
P. O. F.
Smash Ace
Praxis is amazing.
SBR is not Jesus on stilts. TOS can do as they please.
He basically summed everything up nicely here too.
SBR is not Jesus on stilts. TOS can do as they please.
noradseven
Smash Lord
Okay on akuma his entire stratagy was running away fireballs I mean jesus chirst he was probably the most boring character to fight in a game ever with the only ppl coming close being karas, and spiral+sentinal tag team. I would ban him because he was totally boring.
Also lets look at some games that didn't ban the top tier broke characters.
Eddie from GGAC no badmatchs, or lol reload eddie no bad/even matchups
Lisaelotta from AH, yeah **** her she hit you once you p. much lost the match, again no bad matchups
Jun SFIII third strike, no bad matchups again, only 1 even match, the rest were 6:4 or better
Toki from HnK (lol no im not going there that whole game is just broke)
Vega SFII softbanned no bad matchups if I remember right
Sagat SFIV softbanned, no bad matchups actually most are like 7:3
Karas TvC softbanned, he is the definition of gay imagine MK but give him like Ikes range, and like make him a ton faster, that was karas.
Now you can say well they should of been banned and that is wrong and that is all cool and all, but this is to debunk the SRK banned someone MK is like them, they mostly banned him cause because he wasn't an SFII character in their minds.
Also lets look at some games that didn't ban the top tier broke characters.
Eddie from GGAC no badmatchs, or lol reload eddie no bad/even matchups
Lisaelotta from AH, yeah **** her she hit you once you p. much lost the match, again no bad matchups
Jun SFIII third strike, no bad matchups again, only 1 even match, the rest were 6:4 or better
Toki from HnK (lol no im not going there that whole game is just broke)
Vega SFII softbanned no bad matchups if I remember right
Sagat SFIV softbanned, no bad matchups actually most are like 7:3
Karas TvC softbanned, he is the definition of gay imagine MK but give him like Ikes range, and like make him a ton faster, that was karas.
Now you can say well they should of been banned and that is wrong and that is all cool and all, but this is to debunk the SRK banned someone MK is like them, they mostly banned him cause because he wasn't an SFII character in their minds.
The only characters that have been banned in the past p. much had like no flaws, or at least not ones that could ever be exploited, but yeah I don't think its a good argument.
Earth_Swords_Man_009
Smash Lord
I'm sorry but the pro side really seems to make complete sense.
Roxas M
Smash Master
every character has flaws. even mk. that's pretty obvious.
the problem is that his flaws are very hard to exploit. too hard for most characters to use against him. that's what the ban is for. i can even use your argument and say why is the IDC banned? it has flaws too. but it got banned didn't it? because the flaws are very little. just like mk.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
Mid level should never matter. Mid level is part of the progression to top level. Taking mid level into account over top level, is essentially dumbing down the game.
C.box
Smash Journeyman
Neo posts off-topic yet amazing posts.
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