Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[BSP]

You think something can only be banned if it has NO flaws?

Nope i got nothing XD

 

[TLMSheikant]

Praxis and Bengalz just won this thread =).

 

[P. O. F.]

Woo. thats neo? Time to go play him on wifi and get that marf practice!

 

[BoTastic!]

say it loud for all the whiny *****es who cant just man up and beat him. we need a voice too.

I'd be a very happy person if i got a dollar for every time I've heard this.

 

[CRASHiC]

LMAO I just realized your name is hungrybox.. Man.. what the **** is a hungrybox?! I've been casually saying it for so long but like... what the ****?

a lunch box that eats your lunch.

 

[SnowballBob33]

Before anyone brings up Akuma again, consider this.

Generally, Akuma and MK is a bad comparison because Akuma 90:10'd his whole cast. But...has anyone considered the cast of HD Remix?

In Street Fighter II HD Remix, Akuma was REBALANCED (by David Sirlin himself, hired by Capcom) to be a playable character, intended to be tournament legal.

He ended up having no bad matchups, but still being beatable and not even winning every tournament.

The SF community fought for months. Several anti MK ban smash players like AlphaZealot were arguing against banning him too.

In the end- the SF community banned him, and he was banned at Evo. And David Sirlin SUPPORTED this.

A major player wrote:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170255




Street Fighter II HD Remix Akuma == Metaknight?

After this, I'm speechless. I think this statement may just get that little ****er banned.

 

[P. O. F.]

Seriously, everyone being PRO Ban has honestly made solid arguments

while anti ban is saying

learn the match up and deal with it. stop crying.


I'm not kidding. I havent seen one solid retaliation from the anti ban side other than "stop crying"

The Pro ban side covered all aspects of the smash game as a whole

the art of counter picking
what warrants a ban
why we ban items
how meta knight is on a much higher level than any character
tournament results
video footage to convey points as to why his recovery is PERFECT and has nearly over 15 options to recover
he has an option in EVERY situation.

The anti ban says-

Meta knight does not break the meta game because-RESULTS WITH NO EXPLANATION
Brawl is not about counter picking because no other fighting game is. Yeah? Because smash is identical to SF IV? SF Third strike? Mortal Kombat II? Tekken 4? They are nothing alike.
He even states that Meta Knight defeats a portion of the competitve game w counter picking.

to me that argument says "I swear to god guys! MK is not broken! I swear to god I can prove it." Almost like a plea for help and a last resort cry.


I'm sorry but if anyone who has read both essays thinks that Anti Ban had a stronger set of points:

You're stupid.

 

[OFY]

Good stuff Praxis.

 

[CRASHiC]

Before anyone brings up Akuma again, consider this.

Generally, Akuma and MK is a bad comparison because Akuma 90:10'd his whole cast. But...has anyone considered the cast of HD Remix?

In Street Fighter II HD Remix, Akuma was REBALANCED (by David Sirlin himself, hired by Capcom) to be a playable character, intended to be tournament legal.

He ended up having no bad matchups, but still being beatable and not even winning every tournament.

The SF community fought for months. Several anti MK ban smash players like AlphaZealot were arguing against banning him too.

In the end- the SF community banned him, and he was banned at Evo. And David Sirlin SUPPORTED this.

A major player wrote:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170255




Street Fighter II HD Remix Akuma == Metaknight?

I was quite surprised with this argument.

 

[Bob Money]

How does Ally win national tournaments not using Metaknight?

If one of you pro or anti banners could answer that, please.

 

[Falconv1.0]

After this, I'm speechless. I think this statement may just get that little ****er banned.

You're living in delusional land.


Bob Money don't even try, apparently Genesis was in favor of an MK ban so this is just...ugh.

 

[Anth0ny]

Before anyone brings up Akuma again, consider this.

Generally, Akuma and MK is a bad comparison because Akuma 90:10'd his whole cast. But...has anyone considered the cast of HD Remix?

In Street Fighter II HD Remix, Akuma was REBALANCED (by David Sirlin himself, hired by Capcom) to be a playable character, intended to be tournament legal.

He ended up having no bad matchups, but still being beatable and not even winning every tournament.

The SF community fought for months. Several anti MK ban smash players like AlphaZealot were arguing against banning him too.

In the end- the SF community banned him, and he was banned at Evo. And David Sirlin SUPPORTED this.

A major player wrote:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170255




Street Fighter II HD Remix Akuma == Metaknight?

LOL wow.

MK needs to be banned. I pretty much quit the game and went to Melee because playing MK dittos all tournament is NOT FUN.

P.S I'm not using that as a point towards the ban. Obviously my views on "fun" means nothing to the argument. But there's not much more that could be said beyond the first post, and the post that I quoted

 

[C.box]

Praxis was so prepared for this day, **** he is legit at this.

 

[Remzi]

Good **** Praxis.

Not that I really feel we should be using SF credentials to justify our own bannings. Still, it shuts down the people who ARE trying to bring SF into the argument.

 

[Roxas M]

How does Ally win national tournaments not using Metaknight?

If one of you pro banners could answer that, please.

ask him not us.
we didn't chose who he used.

 

[[FBC] ESAM]

Pro-ban, ask me these questions:

Why now is a ban necessary? You've been using the same argument for a year, and the MK "problem" has only gotten better, yet people are still fussing on about how MK will only get worse, and he's dominating tournament results, etc.

Let's look at something.



This has been said since November, and since November, his overall tournament results have declined. While he still is in the lead for best results, they aren't nearly as bad as half a year ago. Look at the two most recent, most competitive, largest Brawl tournaments; Apex and Genesis. A lot of people said, "Let's wait for Apex!" It happened. One out of the top eight was a pure MK main I believe, with two or three others using him as a secondary in some matches. Ally, a Snake main, won Apex. Most people said, "Let's wait for Genesis!" 3 out of the top 8 were pure MK mains, no one else using him. Ally, a Snake, won Genesis.

The fact of the matter remains that in genesis 4-5 of the top 8 used him as a secondary to CP and to make the matchup more in their favor. That is the point of the pro-ban saying that he ****s up the CP system. Don't know results of apex so i can't argue about that.

These results have a decent decline from other large tournaments such as hobo11 and CoT4 in the past, yet people are saying that MK's tournament results will only grow. They've shrunk. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that his tournament placings will get better.

True. However, MK has needed to be banned for a while. The only reason he wasn't was because the game was even younger. Having this many tournaments have that many MKs place high is a bad sign, regardless of age of the game.

First of all, what exactly is an even match-up? If you're really on-paper-picky, then even match-ups don't exist except for ditto matches (but even then, port priority). But realistically, an even match-up is just a match-up where it's very close, and the more skilled player will generally win. And the top players are pretty close in skill.

The point of a matchup ratio is to decide out of 100 matches one character will win some amount and the other will win some amount, asuming they are on the same skill level. If MK has no matchup worse than 50:50 (probably the hardest being himself) it means that MK will win more matches than he will lose. Yes, it is POSSIBLE for him to lose...just less likely in most cases

To say that MK has no even or close enough to even match-ups is hard, given the evidence. Ally, a Snake main, has gone back and forth with M2K, an MK main, as well as beating other top MKs. Lain, an Ice Climbers main, beat Dojo and M2K, both MK mains, at Apex. ADHD, a Diddy main, has beaten Dojo in an MM at Apex and come very close to beating both M2K and Tyrant in previous sets.

Matchup experience comes into play with lain and ADHD. M2K lost to lain at Apex, but then ***** him back in loser's finals because he realized how to play against him. Ally's style of snake is very VERY good, but if the MK plays perfectly against that style, MK will still win more matches than the snake will

If MK had a clear advantage on every one of his match-ups, why would things like this be happening?

MK doesn't have a clear advantage in EVERY matchup, just enough to make 75% of the cast unplayable against him. THe other 25% still barely go even with him. MK wins more matches against every character than he loses, with the exception of another MK. THe fact that he has a higher chance to win against EVERY CHARACTER than EVERY CHARACTER's chance to win against him is prepostorous

If you want to argue the match-up specifics of why I think that he has even MUs like Snake, ICs. and Diddy, then go ahead and challenge me, because I don't feel like writing out long match-up summaries. I will say this though; Diddy Kong especially has only improved in this match-up since it's been explored, and he has a lot of known technical room to grow, such as single banana locking and working out the kinks of mid-ranged zoning, room to grow in the match-up that MK doesn't have. These match-ups are looking worse for MK as time goes on.

He has even matchups?? ****, he must not be broken then...
/scarasm
Just because the person doesn't 100% win every match doesn't mean he isn't bannable. He clearly makes EVERY character in the game less viable, other than himself. You can never use anybody in a tournament with a 60:40 against MK or worse because you will be over-run if you don't have a secondary. This also ****s the game mechanics up because it requires people who don't main MK from the start to pick up 2 characters, splitting their attention which makes the metagame for EACH of those characters develop slower


First: Snake and Diddy Kong.

So MK doesn't win every match 100% of the time. Oh no!

Second: Planking and aircamping have been known for ages, The infamous Plank vs. SK92 match where Plank...well...planked and played very campy was a match from September of last year. It's late July now. Everybody knows about the match, everybody knows about planking and air-camping, INCLUDING MK mains. If they wanted to have planked every match to net a win by now, they'd do it.

Yes, air planking/real planking have been known for a long time. However, do you see ANY metaknight use them every match? Do you see EVERY metaknight do it until the person gets around it? The fact of the matter remains that people just get bored with the actual style MK can play, and it makes the game A LOT less fun for both parties. Hell, M2K ends up playing a more aggro style instead of a defensive one because he doesn't like being defensive. Just because you don't like doing something doesn't mean it isn't better to do. I don't like running, but it doens't mean it isn't good for me.

But not only do many people choose not to play like that because it's boring and not fun for them (M2K being a good example of this), many don't do it much even if they could because they aren't horribly broken. A good chunk of the cast has a very safe answer to planking, and EVERYONE can get past planking and air-camping by simply approaching. Is it safe? Not always. Do we know the specifics of what each character can do against planking and air-camping? No. So should people stop saying, "LOL IT'S BROKED BAN EET" and actually try to find out how good or bad it is before they say it's bannable? Yes.

Exactly. Approaching ISN'T SAFE! When your one chance to even the game up isn't safe that makes the game retardedly difficult. A metaknight can just realize from what angle the opponent is approaching and either hit them away, or run away and start camping from a different position. The top players of each character have tried to find ways around air camping, but not enough people actually do it so that when it actually does happen the people can't do anything about it. You prove to me that every character can deal with air camping...hell, even 10 characters can deal with air camping and you are right in this point.


People have been saying that since November.

It's late July now.

Hey, guess what, competitive Brawl still exists! And look, all of the signs, such as his match-ups and tournament placings, show that his lead on the cast that he once held is now, in fact, slipping! There's no evidence to suggest that the meta-game will deteriorate, especially since people have been saying that for over half a year and the situations only gotten better!

I don't see how the situations have gotten better. Metaknight still places in the majority of tournaments. No other character has even CLOSE to the same success as metaknight. It isn't like there is one dominant player that ***** every region. Every single region has some sort of MK problem. The only region I can think of that doesn't have a MK as #1 is the MW with anther. However, he loses to the top MKs of other regions (tyrant, M2K, Seibrik) so MK would dominate that region if a good enough one came around. Metaknight still dominates most regions, and most is good enough. You don't need MK to win every single tournament and have every top placing, just most of them comparing to every other characters, which he does.

There is no logical reason to ban MK at this point. While the scare back in November or whatever was understandable, the situation's gotten better, and pro-ban is using the exact same argument. If competitive Brawl would have died, it would have happened by now. There is no evidence to suggest that MK will have some broken new tech, or MK will dominate results in the future. Even if there was, you don't ban things pre-emptively because you theory-craft that they MIGHT be bad. You ban them when they're a problem.

Yes, there is no evidence to suggest that MK will have even more dominance than he already does, but the dominance he already has is scary! 22% of all top 3 placings? Holy **** man, that is ****ing ridiculous considering how many characters there are in this game. No one characters should have 11/50 top 3 spots. In theory craft MK is bad, and in actuality MK is bad.

Meta Knight is not a problem, and Meta Knight will not be a problem.

Meta Knight should not be banned.

Those last 2 are just opinions

You said nobody was responding to you, so i did. Have a nice day. Responses in bold

How does Ally win national tournaments not using Metaknight?

If one of you pro banners could answer that, please.

Again, MK doesn't have every matchup that he is going to win every time, but the times ally has won tournaments have been THE ONLY national tournaments that a MK hasn't won. You can't invalidate all those wins with 2 losses, considering a lot of the top placers all at least second MK

 

[ETWIST51294]

How does Ally win national tournaments not using Metaknight?

If one of you pro banners could answer that, please.

Because Isai said "let there be a snake player win against all of his foes" thats why. duh

 

[DotHack]

Seriously, everyone being PRO Ban has honestly made solid arguments

while anti ban is saying

learn the match up and deal with it. stop crying.


I'm not kidding. I havent seen one solid retaliation from the anti ban side other than "stop crying"

You've been heavy pro-ban for over half a year. I've seen a few solid arguments in this thread from the anti-ban side. You just refuse to acknowledge them being the hater you are.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Consider this


You guys don't actually know what Akuma can do to basically **** everyone over in that game.


POF stop ignoring Avarice Panda and making us out to be all 'haters' when most of the 1 posters are anti ban, and making super scrub comments.

 

[Remzi]

How does Ally win national tournaments not using Metaknight?

If one of you pro banners could answer that, please.

Because Ally is a LOT better than everyone bar a very select few players.

Spoiler

I hope this isn't the best argument anti-ban has to offer, Jesus.

 

[Nysyarc]

Hmm... I wonder what kinds of people/players are voting against the ban. Obviously MK mains and even people who use MK as a secondary would, that gives them a lot of voting power right there. But you would think that people who didn't use MK outnumber the MK users by a good margin, yet the poll is still close. Are people who have no affiliation with MK just spontaneously voting to keep him?

That's part of the problem with public voting I find, sure we get our fair share in what the decision is, but not everyone in the general public is cut out to properly evaluate a situation and make the right choice. Not saying that banning MK is the 'right' choice, it's just that, the majority of people in general don't tend to put much thought into things like voting, especially if they consider the subject unimportant or uninteresting.

 

[shlike]

Before anyone brings up Akuma again, consider this.

Generally, Akuma and MK is a bad comparison because Akuma 90:10'd his whole cast. But...has anyone considered the cast of HD Remix?

In Street Fighter II HD Remix, Akuma was REBALANCED (by David Sirlin himself, hired by Capcom) to be a playable character, intended to be tournament legal.

He ended up having no bad matchups, but still being beatable and not even winning every tournament.

The SF community fought for months. Several anti MK ban smash players like AlphaZealot were arguing against banning him too.

In the end- the SF community banned him, and he was banned at Evo. And David Sirlin SUPPORTED this.

A major player wrote:

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=170255




Street Fighter II HD Remix Akuma == Metaknight?

Praxis marry me please.

 

[C.box]

How does Ally win national tournaments not using Metaknight?

If one of you pro banners could answer that, please.

Because ally is amazing, it has already been said that ally is the only player to show any consistency in beating top mks, however 1 player doesnt justify the entire metagame or else GANON would be alot better then given credit for since koskinator places high with ganon all the time.

 

[*_Echo_*]

i think the brawl meta game and styles of each char would increase when MK is gone.
and the only real reason not to is because he didnt win the 2 most recent big tournys >_>

 

[TLMSheikant]

How does Ally win national tournaments not using Metaknight?

If one of you pro banners could answer that, please.

Because ally is too good. He's an excellent player but just because ONE person wins over mk mains consistently it doesnt mean mk shouldnt be banned. Make less sense anti ban please. No solid arguments from anti ban means that there really is no debating this, mk SHOULD BE BANNED.

 

[Wisp]

I'm disappointed with the arguments of most anti-ban people. Stop crying? No one's gonna listen to that. It was really a hard decision for me. I eventually went anti-ban, but mostly because I feel for all the people who have trained for months or even years with MK, and I don't want all their work to go to waste, regardless of his cheapness. Might be a lame reason, but meh, I'm stickin' with it.

 

[ZIO]

I noticed the argument for the Akuma ban, and I notice this quote - "citing other games is not an effective rhetorical strategy."

Now if they were referring to other Street Fighter games, or other game entirely, I do not know.

I would like to say, such a choice to ban Metaknight will affect this game and the community - it will force the community to develop in an entirely different direction than it could have. We may come to find something out of other characters that then make them "broken". Then without Metaknight, this character may see no equal. This is speaking purely hypothetically.

I am FOR this ban, don't get me wrong. I had seen many good players get taken out by this character - back when few saw his potential, and now when he's been all but found out. Yet, I want to stress that this decision is something that can't be taken back (I'm certain once it's made - it is official and cannot be changed), and to be doing it only a year and some odd months after its release is still too early. There just hasn't been enough, has it? Then again, Texas as a state, and Italy has made the decision to ban Metaknight (I had read that a while ago). So whether we like it or not, it may just overcome the community in time.

 

[Sosuke]

This thread has gotten enough voters so that I can't both the Pro and ban vote percentages on the same screen without scrolling.

http://i27.tinypic.com/2vuzc0i.jpg

 

[vato_break]

Uffe wrote at 8:44 PM on Jul 28, 2009 :
Death is my destiny.

 

[Maniclysane]

Because Ally is a LOT better than everyone bar a very select few players.

Spoiler

I hope this isn't the best argument anti-ban has to offer, Jesus.

So get better at the game. You said it yourself, he wins because he's that good. That means you need to become that good. Skill is the determining factor in competitive games.

 

[Flayl]

Are people who have no affiliation with MK just spontaneously voting to keep him?

Yes. I've witnessed MK's get beaten by non MK's. It's not something that only happens once in a blue moon. It happens often.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Everyone thinking Italy banned him, read the ****ing Smashwiki. Unless something has changed, you're an ignorant moron.

 

[Roxas M]

Because Ally is a LOT better than everyone bar a very select few players.

Spoiler

I hope this isn't the best argument anti-ban has to offer, Jesus.

bengals, why are the pro-ban people waay more prepared than the anti-ban?
and why do they start using marth as a argument to keep mk?

 

[SuSa]

This thread has gotten enough voters so that I can't both the Pro and ban vote percentages on the same screen without scrolling.

http://i27.tinypic.com/2vuzc0i.jpg

How come I haven't figured out how to see the results like that?

Not fair.

 

[Genome Squirrel]

I'm anti-ban.

Never has a character been banned from smash...

It should stay that way.

MK is quite beatable.....

i can't think of a better way to say brawl is horribly designed fighter than to ban a character
not that i think mk will even be banned or that nintendo cares what sbr says.

 

[Banks]

I don't play or like brawl but i voted pro-ban because i want to see what happens and this whole thing is hilarious.

 

[fkacyan]

As an additonal counterpoint to pro-ban, who seems to show Melee off as some great balancer, let's look at some results, shall we?

1. Mango - Jigglypuff/Falco - $2,280
2. Armada - Peach - $1,425
3. Hungrybox - Jigglypuff - $855
4. Zhu - Falco/Fox - $570
5. Mew2King - Marth/Sheik - $228
6. Scar - Falcon - $171
7. Darkrain - Falcon - $114
8. Hax - Falcon - $57
9 Pink Shinobi - Peach
9 Raistlin - Jigglypuff
9 Lambchops - Falco
9 Dashizwiz - Falco/Fox
13 Vwins - Peach
13 Tope - Sheik
13 Jman - Fox
13 Darc - Jigglypuff

What placed well here?

Jiggs, Falco, Fox, Peach, Falcon, Marth, Shiek

But wait! Two of those characters were used by one person, and - by god, is that TWO jiggs in the top3? 7/25 characters were used, 28% of the cast. Now, over to Brawl.

1. Ally - Snake - $2,336
2. M2K - Meta Knight - $1,460
3. Tyrant - Meta Knight - $876
4. Dojo - Meta Knight - $584
5. ADHD - Diddy Kong - $233
6. DEHF - Falco - $175
7. Fiction - Wario - $118
8. SK92 - Falco - $59
9. Judge - Meta Knight
9. Lain - Ice Climbers/King Dedede
9. Ultimate Razer - Snake
9. UTD Zach - Game & Watch
13. Bardull - Marth
13. Havok - Meta Knight/Marth
13. Zex - Marth/Meta Knight
13. Chip - Toon Link

Who placed here?

Snake, MK, Diddy, Falco, Wario, Ice Climbers, D3, GnW, Marth, Toon Link.

Several of these characters are loners, and we see several MKs and alt MKs. But none of the MKs are first, and we also have two Falcos in the top 8. As for the amount of the cast used, we have about 10/35 of the cast members, or... wait, WHAT?! 28%?

Holy crap, Batman! Those numbers are the same! And if we look at the distribution of mains:

4 Jiggs, 3 Peach, 3 Falco, 3 Falcon, 1 Marth, 1 Sheik, 1 Fox
5 MK, 2 Snake, 2 Falco, 2 Marth, 1 Wario, 1 Diddy, 1 Ice Climbers, 1 Game And Watch

Well cripes! It looks like the distribution for the top 16 is much closer to uniform for the Brawl results!

Clearly this isn't conclusive and there are almost certainly a few flaws in my reasoning, it's still good evidence that arguing Melee as the harbinger of balance is kinda ********.

 

[Hall]

Easy Ready Willing

Good arguments on both sides, but what did stick out to me the most was the talk about mid level play. While the banning of MK will piss off and hurt a lot of top players I do think it might do wonders for mid-level play. The world's best will still win with other characters.

Basically for me it boils down to what we're willing to change the most

~Top level play
or
~Mid level play

I've never felt that MK should be banned. As a competition ***** (martial arts, trading cards, video games, sports) I've always felt that pushing yourself/your character's limits as far as possible was what competition was all about. Top level competition is what I've always strived for. But there is a community to think about as well. By banning MK you encourage not so much a diversity of characters but a diversity of players. The more low to mid level players you have the more top players you'll get from it.

One of the coolest things we get from a larger pool of players (and characters as a result) is the emergence of unique and talented players. You can throw out all the big names like M2k, Ally, Tyrant, ect. but you also have to remember guys like FOW and Simna. Reflex and Typh. Chip and Rockon. M7H and Fly Aminita. Futile and Fiction. I'll even go so far as to say that even though I'm not as loud or brash as other players, my Snake is one of many unique Snakes that has been around since Brawl began in the states alongside folks like Mojo or JonT. You'll lose good MK's, but it isn't too far fetched to say you might see other members of the cast shine.

There is another part to me that hates the idea of getting rid of MK. The highest level of play possible is important to competition. By banning MK you might garner some new top players, but that might also be a result of the highest plateau of play being lower than before. In addition you'd be losing a chunk of that high level play that we might never see. Can you really claim to have high level play when we're stunting it's growth? Are we really ok with not striving to play the best we possibly can in every aspect and way?

All in all I won't be voting. There are far more capable people debating this right now, and I'm too torn between myself as a competitor and a community that needs to be nurtured. It's almost silly how far all of this has gone even though things like this have happened, and will happen again.

 

[Nysyarc]

Skill is the determining factor in competitive games.

I got flamed to no end for saying something like this in the tier list thread when I first joined. I tried to argue that Metaknight is only as high on the tier list as he is because all the best players with the most skill use him. Guess what the response was?

They use him because he is the best character. Notice the only person who can consistently beat MKs (Ally) mains Snake, and where is he on the tier list?

Skill is important, but a skillful player knows he has to use the best character to compete with others who will be using the best character as well. And so everyone starts using Metaknight. If everyone just played as Ganon it would be all about skill, but there are different characters, so skill is not the only determining factor.

 

[Remzi]

This thread has gotten enough voters so that I can't both the Pro and ban vote percentages on the same screen without scrolling.

http://i27.tinypic.com/2vuzc0i.jpg

after seeing that pic

i googled how to change firefox colors

downloaded anycolor

and now have blue firefox

<3 thank you

*EDIT:

SuSa: Click on the number of votes on either option of the poll