Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

Strong_Bad said:

pichu also hard counters falco
just watch kdj vs. random guy

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i know you're kidding, but don't bring it up, we already had several pages about those matches a while ago.

Well, with those two posts made, I'll just wait for someone to actually start arguing why Pichu vs Falco is winnable against high level Falcos. And then let the thread resume its charted course from there.

*twiddles thumbs*

Ken and Isai actually started that rumor about Kirby after that match as a joke and they kept it up so long that people actually forgot it wasn't true. It makes me feel amazing every time I beat a sheik cus I bring it up and continue perpetuating the lie.

x After Dawn x said:

unknown, does the next update have Fox vs Falco as 50-50?

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it doesn't. Maybe it should, but the problem I have with it is that the arguement is south coast and both west coasts vs everyone else. We all have different opinions, so I basically put / left the middle of the 2 arguements. 6-4 falco vs 50 / 50.

Pink Reaper said:

Ken and Isai actually started that rumor about Kirby after that match as a joke and they kept it up so long that people actually forgot it wasn't true. It makes me feel amazing every time I beat a sheik cus I bring it up and continue perpetuating the lie.

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~____________~

I raged.

First post updated.

well, here's a breakdown of what happened:

Changes:

sheik: - vs ICs to 50-50. ICs can CG into wobble, or into an edgeguard on any level. ICs get gayed by CP stages and it is hard to grab sheik on platform stages.
- I took out some 5's on the bottom tiers, due to being able to combo sometimes and gay her from the ledge. If her recovery was better, it would be 10-0 from low tier and down.
- v YL to 80-20. He does about as well as link in the matchup.

- v Zelda to 90-10. Zelda is only good at camping, but sheik can easily shut down zelda with needles and sheilding periodically. Zelda can down-b to make the matchup even, lol.

fox: - vs puff back to 65-35. Lasers. He has more speed and can rack damage quickly off of lasers. Puff also dies at mid percents from u-smash / u-air. You can also combo puff with weak n-air -> u-air. Puff also has a crappy tech roll, which fox can follow every time, because of his speed.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7931551&postcount=247

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7937598&postcount=250

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7940063&postcount=251

- vs DK to 65-35. DK can combo u-throw -> several u-airs on almost every level. Fox will hit DK more times, but DK's hits do more.
- pichu to 90. Pichu can CG from 0% on almost any level.
- v zelda to 90-10. Fox can get in and out of her range in a slit second. He can also n-air stride her all day.

falco: - vs marth to 45-55. marth has an answer to falco's shield pressure, by light shielding. If they shine in place, or do a waveshine you get a free grab. Falco can mix up, but it will limit his combos. Falco is also good with running away and lasering, but eventually, he will get trapped by the edge of the stage, possibly resulting into a gimp. Marth is also faster than falco, so he can catch him sometimes when he tries to run away. Marth can also CG -> combo falco on almost any stage and platform, his superior range also helps him a lot and he has a lot of good combo starters. Falco has decent combos on marth and can disrupt marth with the laser while he's in the air. Falco needs to mix up, where as marth doesn't in any matchup. Falco also edgeguards marth very well.
- vs peach to 45-55. peach can float the perfect height to go over SHL and under his FHL, which forces him to fight close range. She also has more priority than him. he's good at close range as well, but she has a slightly better edgeguard
- vs doc to 6-4 Doc is good vs falco on small stages. He can setup gimps pretty well and can CG on some stages. Falco has the better poking and combo game, but doc is really good when he gets close. He is also a bit faster than falco.
- v mario to 65-35. Mario has a bit of a harder time setting up edgeguards on falco due to his lower kill power compared to doc.
- v falcon to 6-4. The good falcon players somehow pull off this matchup against good falcos sometimes.
- v DK 7-3. We all know it's ****. Seriously.
- v M2 85-15. M2 does better vs falco than he does against fox. Falco has a bit of a harder time killing M2 and also has trouble comboing him.

marth: - vs doc to 65-35. Marth can literally grab through some of doc's moves. Doc also has a hard time getting down while he's above marth. He also ***** doc with edgeguarding, though doc actually sometimes can't edgeguard marth when he's high above the ledge. Doc has a good close range game and can force him into the air with pills.
- vs dk to 6-4 DK has a good combo game on marth. He also has his up-b which can beat some of marth's moves. He also has good edgeguarding on marth and can match his range with b-air. Marth has decent combos as well and can ken combo him really easily, or edgeguard with a spike. DK's shield also sucks ***.
- vs luigi to 65-35. Luigi can get inside marth's spacing with fast wavedashes. He is really bad in the air, though he has good edgeguarding on marth. He also has good priority once he is inside marth's range. Marth can keep luigi out really well and can spike him every time he tries to recover, unless he gets a missfire.
- vs YL to 65-35. YL can combo off of his projectiles. He can also keep marth above him with u-airs. YL's d-smash sends marth most horizontal, which sets up easy edgeguarding.
- vs G&W to 80-20. G&W his disjointed hitboxes as well. He can also duck under marth's grab.
- v falcon 5-5. Falcon can death combo, but so can marth. They both edgeguard each other really well, though marth has a slight edge. Falcon has to use his speed to bait moves, while marth uses his slightly slower speed combined with range to chase down and trap falcon. At mid percents, marth can death combo falcon, or set up an edgeguard.
- vs puff to 6-4.

Falcon: - v ganon to 65-35. Falcon's speed and combos really shut down ganon. The fact that falocn can get easy combos on ganon out of throws or moves.
- v pichu to 85-15. Pichu can set up edgeguards and combo decently on falcon, though falcon's combos, speed and priority **** pichu to hell. Also mid damage kills even with good DI. Faclon's recovery gets screwed from a simple back throw and it doesn't have to be from the ledge.

Puff: - vs doc to 55-45. Doc has a decent combo game on puff out of throw. Doc can also kill puff out of his throw at decent percents. Doc's pills doing 8% is really good, though puff can avoud it easily. Puff's b-air is broken thouhgh.
- vs mario to 6-4. Mario has a good poking game. He can also kill puff pretty well with u-smash. His head is invincible during the move. F-smash outranges puff. Puff has a decent combo game into rest. She also has good edgeguarding on mario. Her b-air also beats mario's other moves.
- vs link to 55-45. Link has more range than puff and his projectiles are awesome against puff. His n-air is really good for priority and as a combo starter. He gets gayed hard off the stage thouhg
- vs YL to 6-4. YL can combo well off of his boomerang and bombs. His d-air and u-air also kills puff at a really good percents and is disjointed. Puff gays him with having more range and her b-air gays him off the stage.
- vs pika to 55-45. Pika can chip damage at puff because of his disjointed d-air. His u-smash kills at really low percents. It is also hard for puff to edgeguard pikachu, though she can still combo into rest pretty well and also carry him off the stage with b-air.

Samus gets screwed over by her lack of priority below her and she also has low air mobility. Her CC is awesome vs most of the cast, but she gets outcamped by a lot of characters. Some of the numbers are lowered vs low tiers, because her recovery isn't as good as it looks like. She stays in the air for a long time, but she has to recover low majority of the time with a really slow recovery.

Bowser: - vs pichu to 45-55. Pichu is really gay with u-air on bowser. It only does like 4% per hit though. Bowser can kill pichu at low percents though and up-b out of shield is awesome since pichu has no range.
- vs kirby to 50-50. Kirby can gay bowser with suicides. Bowser is over all a better character, but he can get suicide gayed randomly. Kirby can also recover after the suicide kill, because bowser's body is bigger.
- vs M2 to 50-50. M2 has a decent grab game on bowser, but bowser kills M2 really quickly.

Yoshi: - vs pichu to 50-50. This matchup sucks. Yoshi has combos, while pichu has more speed.

Pichu: - vs kirby to 55-45. Pichu is faster, though kirby has more priority.
- some of pichu's numbers are increased vs the low tiers because he is faster than most of them and hs a decent combo game on some of them. He also has a decent b-throw and u-throw against some characters. He is also small and nimble so he is pretty good at evading moves.

Some of kirby matchups are increased vs the low tiers since he has more priority than most of them with his b-air / u-tilt. His five jumps also helps his edgeguarding a lot. He is really slow on the ground, so he gets camped pretty easily, but he is good at forcing stalemates vs some of the low tiers.

I might be missing something. This **** is long.

There are way too many matchups to go into detail. It'd take me like 10 hours to type it all.

Wow Mario over Luigi, Marth at #3 and Jiggs at 5th? Interesting *looks into analysis now*

im loving all the pichu mathcup changes XD

DK can 0- death fast fallers =p.

You're welcome.

Fox vs Falco still even? argg.

I'm DEFINITELY liking how you switched Falco vs Falcon from 65-35 to 60-40 though. I forgot to mention it before, but a knee even at low percent will kill Falco like instantly, it's ridiculous.

^and anytime falco is off stage, short hopping a weak knee kills all his recovery attmpts.

its pretty funny cuz theres nothing he can do

unknown522 said:

Falcon: - v ganon to 65-35. Falcon's speed and combos really shut down ganon. The fact that falocn can get easy combos on ganon out of throws or moves.

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What? That's not true.. if you DI properly Ganon cannot get comboed on stage against any character! It's a 60-40, strictly because Falcon is faster or has more mobility, pretty much it.. the rest is rock paper scissors. Ganon's move come out as fast as Falcon, I don't think it's possible for a Falcon to pressure Ganon even with Jabs on the shield and all that... it's suppose to be the other way around.. Ganon has amazing combos on Falcon as well. Both characters edgeguard is the same and easy pretty much... Ya it's just because Falcon can move around better that Ganon has a hard time catching up to him but other than that... it can go either way.

LOL, there is no way that sheik is 45-55 against jiggs. sheik has an advantage, don't trust m2k on this. he has a major jiggs problem. i would even argue marth has a tougher time with jiggs; mostly cuz his moves have way more lag, leading to more potential rests. marth also doesn't have neeeeeedles, or a consistent vertical kill move. it's 60-40 sheik. you should ask mango, at least he plays both chars

and i've done the falco vs jiggs matchup quite a bit too. falco does pretty well, but it's in jigg's favor.

Divinokage said:

What? That's not true.. if you DI properly Ganon cannot get comboed on stage against any character! It's a 60-40, strictly because Falcon is faster or has more mobility, pretty much it.. the rest is rock paper scissors. Ganon's move come out as fast as Falcon, I don't think it's possible for a Falcon to pressure Ganon even with Jabs on the shield and all that... it's suppose to be the other way around.. Ganon has amazing combos on Falcon as well. Both characters edgeguard is the same and easy pretty much... Ya it's just because Falcon can move around better that Ganon has a hard time catching up to him but other than that... it can go either way.

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I'm going to have to agree on this, in fact I would say the matchup would be closer to being 55-45 than 65-35 (not saying it should be 55-45, IMO should be 60-40).

Devil Ray said:

LOL, there is no way that sheik is 45-55 against jiggs. sheik has an advantage, don't trust m2k on this. he has a major jiggs problem. i would even argue marth has a tougher time with jiggs; mostly cuz his moves have way more lag, leading to more potential rests. marth also doesn't have neeeeeedles, or a consistent vertical kill move. it's 60-40 sheik. you should ask mango, at least he plays both chars

and i've done the falco vs jiggs matchup quite a bit too. falco does pretty well, but it's in jigg's favor.

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Needles don't do that much against Jiggs considering she's in the air most of the time. But KirbyKaze explained a few pages back why Jiggs does well, and essentially it's because most of Sheik's bread and butter tricks that work against other characters just don't work against Jiggs, and she just doesn't have as many options as she usually does. 55-45 actually sounds perfect.

Also, I agree with your statement, I think Jiggs vs Falco should be maybe 55-45 for Jiggs, or maybe even 60-40. Falco's lasers are most ineffective against Jiggs than any other character, and once Jigglypuff gets passed that and the fact that shine > bair, or any combo to bair doesn't work, and a good Jiggs won't run into Falco's awkward fsmash, it becomes a bit difficult to kill Jiggs once you also consider how weak his vertical options are compared to Fox. I find that a good Jiggs can just full hop over Falco's lasers and get into him, and once that happens, it's not like Falco can do some shine combos because they simply don't work on Jigglypuff, and especially not at mid-high percents. Upthrow > rest, or jab missed tech > rest ***** Falco, and her dash attack makes it impossible for Falco to recover at mid percents because of his horrible recovery. Falco doesn't really have any realistic (and reliable) answer to Jiggs once she comes up close to him and he can't laser. Falco's worst matchup, IMO.

well, KK also said he didn't feel comfy with giving numbers, so i'm not sure that should equal disadvantage. and sheik's "normal stuff" all happens to jiggs. any tilt to fair. dthrow to fair. dthrow to upair. needles, upsmash oos(covers both sides and above), it's all good. and jiggs rest game on sheik is the same with EVERY char.

otg said:

Wow Mario over Luigi, Marth at #3 and Jiggs at 5th? Interesting *looks into analysis now*

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Of course Mario's better than Luigi. Luigi is pretty much a joke character! He's got a stupid recovery and a useless projectile. That's a waste of a B move since you only get 4!

Luigi is good but if you know the matchup you will understand how often he leaves himself vunerable.

He ***** fast fallers in terms of combos and edgeguards, although he gets ***** by their uairs, but doesnt combo many of the other characters very well.

From there, pretty much hes just WDing around making noise. Just out space him and be prepared to shield grab when he lands and dont fall for the double or triple aerial trap.

Mario is more of a solid character, just being more direct, and effective while relying on less nintrickery.

KAOSTAR said:

Luigi is good but if you know the matchup you will understand how often he leaves himself vunerable.

He ***** fast fallers in terms of combos and edgeguards, although he gets ***** by their uairs, but doesnt combo many of the other characters very well.

From there, pretty much hes just WDing around making noise. Just out space him and be prepared to shield grab when he lands and dont fall for the double or triple aerial trap.

Mario is more of a solid character, just being more direct, and effective while relying on less nintrickery.

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My thoughts exactly! I agree with Kaostar 100%!

i just wanted to take a break from all this excellent debating and say good job guys. i think we've set some sort of world record for intelligent discussion and on-topic dialogue

Iceys vs Pichu 95:5? No.

Pichu's upair is painful and goes through our dair, pichu's dsmash separates us, nana cannot SDI out of pichu's fsmash. Dthrow > dair is DIable at low percents, dthrow reverse dair doesn't work because of pichu's weight, and dthrow dsmash regrab obviously doesn't work. Wobbling is banned in the southeast. :/

cant they just do a solo popo cg on pichu?

Divinokage said:

What? That's not true.. if you DI properly Ganon cannot get comboed on stage against any character! It's a 60-40, strictly because Falcon is faster or has more mobility, pretty much it.. the rest is rock paper scissors. Ganon's move come out as fast as Falcon, I don't think it's possible for a Falcon to pressure Ganon even with Jabs on the shield and all that... it's suppose to be the other way around.. Ganon has amazing combos on Falcon as well. Both characters edgeguard is the same and easy pretty much... Ya it's just because Falcon can move around better that Ganon has a hard time catching up to him but other than that... it can go either way.

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I was conflicted on this one. I've seen you consistently lose to hax, though I personally think that you are a better player than him. Also, Linguini lost to Romeo, though I am 100% sure that linguini is a better player than him.

I just never see / hear about the good ganons beating the good falcons.

x After Dawn x said:

I'm going to have to agree on this, in fact I would say the matchup would be closer to being 55-45 than 65-35 (not saying it should be 55-45, IMO should be 60-40).



Needles don't do that much against Jiggs considering she's in the air most of the time. But KirbyKaze explained a few pages back why Jiggs does well, and essentially it's because most of Sheik's bread and butter tricks that work against other characters just don't work against Jiggs, and she just doesn't have as many options as she usually does. 55-45 actually sounds perfect.

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same thing I said to kage.

x After Dawn x said:

Also, I agree with your statement, I think Jiggs vs Falco should be maybe 55-45 for Jiggs, or maybe even 60-40. Falco's lasers are most ineffective against Jiggs than any other character, and once Jigglypuff gets passed that and the fact that shine > bair, or any combo to bair doesn't work, and a good Jiggs won't run into Falco's awkward fsmash, it becomes a bit difficult to kill Jiggs once you also consider how weak his vertical options are compared to Fox. I find that a good Jiggs can just full hop over Falco's lasers and get into him, and once that happens, it's not like Falco can do some shine combos because they simply don't work on Jigglypuff, and especially not at mid-high percents. Upthrow > rest, or jab missed tech > rest ***** Falco, and her dash attack makes it impossible for Falco to recover at mid percents because of his horrible recovery. Falco doesn't really have any realistic (and reliable) answer to Jiggs once she comes up close to him and he can't laser. Falco's worst matchup, IMO.

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I thought I changed falco to 55-45 for jiggs, but I guess I missed it.

GofG said:

Iceys vs Pichu 95:5? No.

Pichu's upair is painful and goes through our dair, pichu's dsmash separates us, nana cannot SDI out of pichu's fsmash. Dthrow > dair is DIable at low percents, dthrow reverse dair doesn't work because of pichu's weight, and dthrow dsmash regrab obviously doesn't work. Wobbling is banned in the southeast. :/

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wtf? pichu gets ***** to hell by the ICs.

4% APR said:

cant they just do a solo popo cg on pichu?

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yes.

x After Dawn x said:

Needles don't do that much against Jiggs considering she's in the air most of the time. But KirbyKaze explained a few pages back why Jiggs does well, and essentially it's because most of Sheik's bread and butter tricks that work against other characters just don't work against Jiggs, and she just doesn't have as many options as she usually does. 55-45 actually sounds perfect.

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jiggs being herself removes a lot of sheik's game. She can get rest punished in many different ways, so she is kind of forced to alternate ground and air attacks in moderation, because jiggs' air mobility is way better than sheik's. She can weave between sheik's attacks and hit her, sort of like what she does to marth. All of sheik's tilts can be CC'd up to mid-high percents (60% ish). She can crouch under sheik's grab and single needle -> grab doesn't work if puff crouches the needle. Sheik gets destroyed on recovery. Added bonus, jiggs' b-air is ridiculous. Sheik's is too.

Sheik's platform camp game is generally really good and is pretty much the major thing going for her in the matchup. She has the same problems as she does vs ICs.

Devil Ray said:

well, KK also said he didn't feel comfy with giving numbers, so i'm not sure that should equal disadvantage. and sheik's "normal stuff" all happens to jiggs. any tilt to fair. dthrow to fair. dthrow to upair. needles, upsmash oos(covers both sides and above), it's all good. and jiggs rest game on sheik is the same with EVERY char.

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KK told me that it's even yesterday after seeing the update. above post.

Well, he said if falco v jiggs is going to be even, then sheik v jiggs should be too. Falco was supposed to be put as 55-45 for jiggs though.

Devil Ray said:

well, KK also said he didn't feel comfy with giving numbers, so i'm not sure that should equal disadvantage. and sheik's "normal stuff" all happens to jiggs. any tilt to fair. dthrow to fair. dthrow to upair. needles, upsmash oos(covers both sides and above), it's all good. and jiggs rest game on sheik is the same with EVERY char.

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Puff's duck

- makes sheik's f-tilt whiff unless you do it really close
- removes sheik's grab unless you needle --> grab
- prevents d-smash from knocking over or offstage for a long time
- prevents dash attack from launching her until like 80
- allows her to cc rest or cc f-smash all her ground moves (some situationally)

If Puff DIs away her F-tilt doesn't combo unless it's at really, really low percent.

Sheik is also really, really, really easy to Rest when she's recovering if they're used to doing it at all. If immediate Rest isn't possible for whatever reason, they can F-smash her back off or Uair combo her and push her offstage (or combo her into Rest lol), which are both very effective too.

Sheik's normal stuff should include gimping, edgeguarding, and being able to grab people.

Puff can D-throw on a bunch of the platform stages and force Sheik to tech on platform and possibly Rest her or get a free combo (possibly even into Rest lol). If Sheik doesn't DI away and hit the platform, she can just be Rested at low percent or comboed guaranteed.

Puff's Bair generally beats all of Sheik's aerials except her Fair and her Bair's sweetspot. But Sheik sucks at spacing those to beat Puff's moves because her short hop sucks and her air mobility sucks whereas Puff has good jumps and amazing aerial mobility.

unknown522 said:

I was conflicted on this one. I've seen you consistently lose to hax, though I personally think that you are a better player than him. Also, Linguini lost to Romeo, though I am 100% sure that linguini is a better player than him.

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While this is true, match ups should define themselves over at least long battle session. I don't think it's fair to say that just because I lost to Hax 3 times 2-1 or 2-0 that is a 65-35. And ya I have played many many falcons and it's definitely not that bad once you get used to everything. The other way around, yes I can see the advantage but it's a not great advantage, I played Falcon against Ganons a lot too, if you are not careful Falcon is gonna be *****.

Divinokage said:

While this is true, match ups should define themselves over at least long battle session. I don't think it's fair to say that just because I lost to Hax 3 times 2-1 or 2-0 that is a 65-35. And ya I have played many many falcons and it's definitely not that bad once you get used to everything. The other way around, yes I can see the advantage but it's a not great advantage, I played Falcon against Ganons a lot too, if you are not careful Falcon is gonna be *****.

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this is true.

x After Dawn x said:

Also, I agree with your statement, I think Jiggs vs Falco should be maybe 55-45 for Jiggs, or maybe even 60-40. Falco's lasers are most ineffective against Jiggs than any other character, and once Jigglypuff gets passed that and the fact that shine > bair, or any combo to bair doesn't work, and a good Jiggs won't run into Falco's awkward fsmash, it becomes a bit difficult to kill Jiggs once you also consider how weak his vertical options are compared to Fox. I find that a good Jiggs can just full hop over Falco's lasers and get into him, and once that happens, it's not like Falco can do some shine combos because they simply don't work on Jigglypuff, and especially not at mid-high percents. Upthrow > rest, or jab missed tech > rest ***** Falco, and her dash attack makes it impossible for Falco to recover at mid percents because of his horrible recovery. Falco doesn't really have any realistic (and reliable) answer to Jiggs once she comes up close to him and he can't laser. Falco's worst matchup, IMO.

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this is true for the most part except once jiggs gets in close, falco isnt completely helpless, dair spam always works.

and as for "combos into bair", dair, jab, bair is a pretty reliable finisher vs floaties

unknown522 said:

this is true.

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Well my style works really well vs Falcon/Marth mainly. So I guess you can say I'm a specialist vs these guys.

Divinokage said:

Well my style works really well vs Falcon/Marth mainly. So I guess you can say I'm a specialist vs these guys.

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Random question: does matt still play?

JPOBS said:

this is true for the most part except once jiggs gets in close, falco isnt completely helpless, dair spam always works.

and as for "combos into bair", dair, jab, bair is a pretty reliable finisher vs floaties

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except she's most likely going to spit out a projectile she gets close enough, and her attacks have more horizontal range than Falco's

likewise, dair as an approach is a bad idea unless you want to get rested oos or shieldgrabbed to upthrow to rest. bair is probably Falco's best killing move against Jiggs, but he can't really combo into it. dair > jab > bair works better vs Peach than Jiggs.

KirbyKaze said:

Puff's duck

Sheik is also really, really, really easy to Rest when she's recovering if they're used to doing it at all. If immediate Rest isn't possible for whatever reason, they can F-smash her back off or Uair combo her and push her offstage (or combo her into Rest lol), which are both very effective too.

Sheik's normal stuff should include gimping, edgeguarding, and being able to grab people.

Puff can D-throw on a bunch of the platform stages and force Sheik to tech on platform and possibly Rest her or get a free combo (possibly even into Rest lol). If Sheik doesn't DI away and hit the platform, she can just be Rested at low percent or comboed guaranteed.

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sheik is easy to rest thru certain hits and percents, but i promise you, it's not that bad. i would argue fox and falco are easier to rest. if we saw 10 matches between equally skilled jiggs vs sheik, i guarantee there'd be at MOST 2 rests from sheik's recovery. and sheik's landing lag is a problem against everyone, not just sheik. in fact, luigi can wdash to upB faster than any move jiggs can do.

almost 90% of the time you get rested, it'll be thru a random combo that you di'ed wrong at a low percent. it's not that bad. you will certainly get more grabs than jiggs will rest you. and if jiggs grabs sheik more, you're not playing sheik right.

falco vs jiggs is much harder. i've used falco and sheik for years. falco can't mess up against jiggs at all, it's pretty unfortunate. jiggs can just take advantage of every little mistake. falco only has lasers, shine, bair, and uptilt. falco's cc is good, but it's not reliable in this matchup. it's 55-45 in jigg's favor, maybe 60-40

Devil Ray said:

sheik is easy to rest thru certain hits and percents, but i promise you, it's not that bad. i would argue fox and falco are easier to rest. if we saw 10 matches between equally skilled jiggs vs sheik, i guarantee there'd be at MOST 2 rests from sheik's recovery. and sheik's landing lag is a problem against everyone, not just sheik. in fact, luigi can wdash to upB faster than any move jiggs can do.

almost 90% of the time you get rested, it'll be thru a random combo that you di'ed wrong at a low percent. it's not that bad. you will certainly get more grabs than jiggs will rest you. and if jiggs grabs sheik more, you're not playing sheik right.

falco vs jiggs is much harder. i've used falco and sheik for years. falco can't mess up against jiggs at all, it's pretty unfortunate. jiggs can just take advantage of every little mistake. falco only has lasers, shine, bair, and uptilt. falco's cc is good, but it's not reliable in this matchup. it's 55-45 in jigg's favor, maybe 60-40

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agreed with the falco vs jiggs part. I would personally say 60-40 as well for Jiggs. Definitely Falco's hardest matchup.

Strong_Bad said:

uthrow rest doesn't work with DI.

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Well obviously, but half of the time Jiggs upthrows spacies, they don't DI it, and then it becomes an automatic kill for Jiggs.