Melee Match-Up Chart (NTSC) [Update 008 - 09.09.28]

[KirbyKaze]

if we saw 10 matches between equally skilled jiggs vs sheik, i guarantee there'd be at MOST 2 rests from sheik's recovery. and sheik's landing lag is a problem against everyone, not just sheik. in fact, luigi can wdash to upB faster than any move jiggs can do.

I already said that she can do a lot of other crap than just Rest, including but not limited to comboing her back off the stage (there's nothing wrong with Uair --> more aerials / Rest), or F-smashing her back off. There's probably more, too. I know a lot of Puffs just Bair and try to Bair her through her jump and that works well too.

almost 90% of the time you get rested, it'll be thru a random combo that you di'ed wrong at a low percent. it's not that bad. you will certainly get more grabs than jiggs will rest you. and if jiggs grabs sheik more, you're not playing sheik right.

When Puff hits your shield with an aerial, if you try to grab at any range you will be Rested or F-smashed unless the Puff screwed up.

You can't do crouch cancel grabs because Puff has too much range, coupled with multiple jumps, and probably will move away from you after hitting you.

You can't dash dance to grab, because she's going to be airborne a lot, and if she is on the ground, she will be ducking, because anything Sheik does on the ground can be punished unless by her duck unless Puff's at a high percent.

The only real way to grab Puff (barring needle grab or punishing really stupid dash attacks, smashes, etc.) is to convince her to shield and then take advantage of it, because literally everything else she does will be ungrabbable.

When you add that almost all of Sheik's ground moves on Puff's shield are punishable, it becomes really, really hard to do much at all to a smart Puff.

edit: I feel that Sheik is as good or better than Falco at the matchup, which is why I said that if Falco Puff was even, Sheik Puff should also be even (minimally).

edit2: Sheik Puff at high level winds up being a massive grind war because of the damage Sheik can inflict with a grab (KO at 85 and other stuff), and because of the danger that approaching Puff presents Sheik. Sheik's game is very limited against Puff, but if Puff wants to win, she doesn't have many options either.

Because of Puff's ability to KO consistently with edgeguarding, her ability to gimp, and her ability to combo into gimp, I think it balances Sheik's camping game, and the matchup winds up being really close.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

uthrow rest doesn't work with DI.

can always count on this guy to call out the obvious.

EVERY SINGLE TIME.

we know strong bad, just stfu plz.

i see marth and falcon is now even. what else was changed, if i may ask?

 

[lordvaati]

looking at the updated chart, and I like.

It's rather Ironic how Pichu has better matchups against tops then Yoshi and Kirby, though.

this combined with how Kirby has no good matchups, seems like a hint that pinkie will be dead last soon -_-

I ****ing called it.

Also, props for Mario=DK now, and Ness moving up(barely) to low Bottom.

 

[1048576]

I like how YL keeps having his own tier.

 

[Strong Badam]

can always count on this guy to call out the obvious.

EVERY SINGLE TIME.

we know strong bad, just stfu plz.

i see marth and falcon is now even. what else was changed, if i may ask?

why even ****ing mention uthrow rest when we're talking about high level play, then?
might as well talk about how amazing nair combos into falcon punch.

 

[KirbyKaze]

What a terrible comparison.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but that's quite the exaggeration.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

sometimes you can even catch pros in bad DI. hard to believe. But i've seen several people get uthrown rest that you would consider "pro" and "high level".

 

[Strong Badam]

yea, m2k gets uthrow rested sometimes, too. but seriously, people's DI are getting better and better, and I'm seeing less and less uthrow rests. I used to see them all the time back in the day.
I think I've been uthrown -> rested like, twice in the past 6 months, usually in teams when I had other stuff to worry about, too. LOL

 

[KirbyKaze]

DaShizWiz, Lambchops, Colbol all get U-throw Rested by Hungrybox at least once per set.

That's good enough for me.

Jiggs U-throw is pretty fast.

 

[Divinokage]

Random question: does matt still play?

We play from time to time, he's a little rusted but he can definitely hold his own still.

 

[x After Dawn x]

yea, m2k gets uthrow rested sometimes, too. but seriously, people's DI are getting better and better, and I'm seeing less and less uthrow rests. I used to see them all the time back in the day.
I think I've been uthrown -> rested like, twice in the past 6 months, usually in teams when I had other stuff to worry about, too. LOL

Clearly, the Jigglypuff players you play either aren't good or you just don't play a lot, because KirbyKaze's right, I've seen many good spacie mains get rested at some point or another. Now, we can play "super theory bros" and imagine that players DI everything perfectly, or we can be realistic and say that sometimes people miss the DI on the upthrow because it's so fast and sometimes unpredictable, and that often leads to Jiggs getting a free kill.

Either way, I think you guys should quickly fix the matchup for Falco vs Jiggs so that we don't have to wait until the next update, since KirbyKaze did say it was supposed to be 55-45 for Jiggs.

 

[Divinokage]

Hbox come back vs Zhu at Genesis.. enough said lol.

 

[Devil Ray]

all right, this is my last post in this thread about sheik v. jiggs...i'll post in the sheik forums after this.

the great thing for sheik is that jiggs doesn't have a universal guaranteed combo on sheik at every percentage. it's all about spacing and what gambles you take to approach, from either player. jiggs can bair sheik to whatever, but he/she still has to do methodical edging. it's not easy for jiggs. for me, i feel like it's easy to get fair combos, tilt combos, anything that leads to an aerial for sheik.

when i played sliq at smym, i just upsmashed, grab-fair, and dsmashed. that's pretty much it. all sliq did was bair, uptilt, and dair me OOshield. we had to space each other like crazy. he rested me twice the whole 3 matches, one of the rests he FELL OFF the platform on yoshi's after the rest. we both died, so it didn't matter. and sliq tries to rest everything, he threw out like 6 of them. he didn't rest me out of my dsmash bc there's too much risk, he would just dair me. he beat me in the set, but i didn't tech after a hit and got jab-rest. that's the only legit rest he got on me. he won the set, but it was pretty close. i won the first, and might have won the 2nd but i remember something weird happening with the dreamland wind and i airdodged.

but sliq is better than me and i made him earn his win. i also didn't needle camp that much, just very little. no time or space to do it. either 55-45 sheik, or 60-40 sheik

 

[KirbyKaze]

Either way, I think you guys should quickly fix the matchup for Falco vs Jiggs so that we don't have to wait until the next update, since KirbyKaze did say it was supposed to be 55-45 for Jiggs.

I said Sheik vs Puff (IMO) and Falco vs Puff should be the same or Falco should be more disadvantaged.

 

[john!]

Props to DRC for not exaggerating his character's bad matchups. I think people do that too much. >_<

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the only time a no DI uthrow should happen is when the fox doesn't see the grab happening/working and the puff tries it and it works. if the fox sees the throw coming at all, he will be DIing

 

[Blatt Blvd]

even if something is DIable, someone(even at high level play strongbad) is gonna get caught in it.

whether it be an escapable chain grab, ken combo, ect(obviously some moves/combos are just plain bad and should never even be attempted).

humans screw up.

period.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

even if something is DIable, someone(even at high level play strong f@g) is gonna get caught in it.

whether it be an escapable chain grab, ken combo, ect(obviously some moves/combos are just plain bad and should never even be attempted).

humans screw up.

period.

no .

 

[The Irish Mafia]

Peaches' advantageous matchup count is WAY too low, IMO

 

[x After Dawn x]

I said Sheik vs Puff (IMO) and Falco vs Puff should be the same or Falco should be more disadvantaged.

IMO Falco is 5 points worse simply because Falco has a rough time killing Jiggs and Jiggs can gimp Falco super easily. 60-40.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

no .

yes .

 

[Strong Badam]

maybe .

 

[unknown522]

IMO Falco is 5 points worse simply because Falco has a rough time killing Jiggs and Jiggs can gimp Falco super easily. 60-40.

I agree with this.

I'm not in control of editing the first post though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

banana .

 

[Strong Badam]

donkey kong has a 100-0 match-up with DK

 

[joeplicate]

i'd call fox-ics 60-40 instead of 65

 

[unknown522]

donkey kong has a 100-0 match-up with DK

indeed he does.

 

[worldjem7]

Falco vs Purin fixed:

Previously 50, fixed to 55 (Purin) after posted mistake, fixed to 60 (Purin) for mini update.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yes .

every move is useful

 

[LuCKy]

puff falcon is deff 50 50

............. my falcon beat both h box and darc


all tho my puff would **** my falcon

w/e

=DDDDDD

 

[Dark Sonic]

yes.

If you're in the position to land a ken combo....why wouldn't you do it?

 

[john!]

If you're in the position to land a ken combo....why wouldn't you do it?

You would. The thing is that Ken was king back in the days when people's DI sucked. Today most everybody will DI out of it, so it becomes a negligible factor in determining matchups.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you can still trick people into messing up the DI, especially when they are off the stage. m2k does that a lot.

 

[joeplicate]

You would. The thing is that Ken was king back in the days when people's DI sucked. Today most everybody will DI out of it, so it becomes a negligible factor in determining matchups.

the thing is that you can REACT to when they mess up their DI, then jump and dair

also i'm pretty sure that there are situations where you can't get out of it, like mid percents when you hit with the tip of fair

 

[Strong Badam]

if they DI away and a ken combo won't work, then fast fall -> fsmash/ftilt or just do another fair/maybe a DJ shieldbreaker (I've seen Ken do it before). the thing about a ken combo is yeah, it can be DI'd out of, but you're in a bad position anyway.

 

[otg]

if they DI away and a ken combo won't work, then fast fall -> fsmash/ftilt or just do another fair/maybe a DJ shieldbreaker (I've seen Ken do it before). the thing about a ken combo is yeah, it can be DI'd out of, but you're in a bad position anyway.

*ding ding ding*

 

[KirbyKaze]

*ding ding ding*

banana phone

Someone said Peach matchups.

Maybe we should like, talk about her matchups.

Who here thinks Marth is harder than Fox? And who here thinks she beats Falcon or goes even with him? We'll start there and move onto less relevant characters as she goes.

Does anyone think Sheik beats her 60/40? Or does anyone think it's even? Or Falco thoughts? this is the song that never ends...

 

[Strong Badam]

dk vs. peach is 40-60

from trying to use Sheik as a Peach counter because I hate Peach, I think it's 55-45 in Sheik's favor or even. both chars have a decent amount of things going for them in the match-up, but neither of them really dominate each other in any aspect.

 

[unknown522]

Falco vs Purin fixed:

Previously 50, fixed to 55 (Purin) after posted mistake, fixed to 60 (Purin) for mini update.

good work.

puff falcon is deff 50 50

............. my falcon beat both h box and darc


all tho my puff would **** my falcon

w/e

=DDDDDD

understandable. Do you mind giving reasons?

dk vs. peach is 40-60

from trying to use Sheik as a Peach counter because I hate Peach, I think it's 55-45 in Sheik's favor or even. both chars have a decent amount of things going for them in the match-up, but neither of them really dominate each other in any aspect.

Doesn't the chart say that?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach vs Sheik is like

Peach can float Fair and beat all Sheik's moves if it comes out but Sheik can hit Peach prematurely to punish (can be mitigated by better float back).

Peach low float stuff all goes under Sheik's aerials and therefore Sheik has to be falling to beat them with aerials but then Peach risks being D-smashed or F-tilted or something.

Not sure what else happens. I don't do this one much.