The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

CaliburChamp, a couple questions:
What was the last offline tournament you attended to? How many people were there and how did you place? Was there any known top player?
Have you ever hosted an offline tournament yourself? If yes, how many people attended and was there any known top player?

Nidtendofreak said:

What CC, now not only are you claiming you're the only person who has posted their own tier list and have done research, you suddenly have access to the SBR?

*watches everyone's opinion about CC start to drop to the level of Gheb and Inui*

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Unlike this guy, though, Inui and Gheb know ****.

Ray_Kalm said:

I doubt Popo or Nana are that bad, even as individual characters.

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They are that bad. Weak damage, can't gimp anyone, bad aerial mobility, bad recovery (especially vertically.) Weakest projectile in the game (1 Ice block. 2 is much better.)

The only thing solo popo has over Ganon is d-throw chain grab, but it's so weak and ends early when at the edge of a stage, that 2 Ganon side b's equal or surpass that of a 5-6 chaingrabs. Down+B does weak damage for blizzard. The only things solo popo has over Ganon is faster attacks, and faster run speed. Their recovery are like equal, however in this game, its more important to have a vertical recovery move than a horizontal one, since most stages aren't low like Pictochat low.

Nidtendofreak said:

*watches everyone's opinion about CC start to drop to the level of Gheb and Inui*

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At least Inui can prove that he has access to the SBR.

Edit: LEGITIMATE ACCESS.

CaliburChamp said:

They are that bad. Weak damage, can't gimp anyone, bad aerial mobility, bad recovery (especially vertically.) Weakest projectile in the game (1 Ice block. 2 is much better.

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That's not enough to make a character dead bottom.

Neo Exdeath said:

Since when did you have access to the SBR? You seem to have a large knowledge of it.

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At a LAN center called Zero Ping. Someone with a purple name didn't sign off, and I was able to look at the SBR threads.

Why is everyone placing Squirtle so high on the independent list?

CaliburChamp said:

At a LAN center called Zero Ping. Someone with a purple name didn't sign off, and I was able to look at the SBR threads.

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and thus, you're automatically smarter than all of them.

CaliburChamp said:

At a LAN center called Zero Ping. Someone with a purple name didn't sign off, and I was able to look at the SBR threads.

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And when was this? And.... isn't that sorta unallowed?

Unlike this guy, though, Inui and Gheb know ****.

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*blinks*

Could have fooled me.

At least Inui can prove that he has access to the SBR.

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That he can...

They are that bad. Weak damage, can't gimp anyone, bad aerial mobility, bad recovery (especially vertically.) Weakest projectile in the game (1 Ice block. 2 is much better.

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Sad thing is solo IC would still most likely have better MUs then Ganondorf.

EDIT:

At a LAN center called Zero Ping. Someone with a purple name didn't sign off, and I was able to look at the SBR threads.

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I would think that is a bannable offense. I know it is at some other sites I go to.

Onishiba said:

CaliburChamp, a couple questions:
What was the last offline tournament you attended to? How many people were there and how did you place? Was there any known top player?
Have you ever hosted an offline tournament yourself? If yes, how many people attended and was there any known top player?

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haha


hahahaha


Seriously? ONISHIBA is pulling the experience card?

Nidtendofreak said:

*blinks*

Could have fooled me.

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I think you got me wrong. Gheb and Inui DO know several things and they are at least decent players. However, they tend to judge some things wrong and mainly are only open to their own perspectives. But they DO know things, I've had several RL talks with Gheb already and he is pretty knowledgeable. His points are at least worth a look. Inui is in the same boat.
They're neither scrubs nor are they dumb, they're just... themselves.

Flayl said:

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haha


hahahaha


Seriously? ONISHIBA is pulling the experience card?

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Your attempt of trolling me is futile. If you want to insult me for my position or trying to say that I don't know **** about Brawl, then aim it somewhere else, like at CC. I don't see any need to defend myself or my knowledge with the game. Besides this, I have attended tournaments and hosted some, and I play with Austria's top players, so I do have experience. It's just that neither events were particularly big.

Ray_Kalm said:

Maybe it doesn't, but it also doesn't mean that you know how 'good' the character being discussed is, and where that same character should go on the tier list.

Well, that's just your opinion. My opinion is, it does matter.

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Fixed.

CaliburChamp said:

Edit: For anyone who disagrees with my previous posts. Read above. No one does that. SBR is not right all the time. And yes, I do think my tier list is better than the SBR tier list.

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So you think your knowledge is greater than the knowledge of several dozed people having success with various characters? Nope.

Red Ryu said:

Why is everyone placing Squirtle so high on the independent list?

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Because Squirtle is really good. Some people place him in A which I think is a bit high but he's definitely B tier at least.

While my method of expressing it is fairly troll'ish, there is one undeniable truth when it comes to discussions of ANY kind:

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

Tien2500 said:

Fixed.

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Oh, so, let me get this straight, if Snake were to switch places with Metaknight on the tier list, it wouldn't matter? I see.

Countless problems in that list.

I'm gonna cry cause Yoshi is above Mario. WAAAAHH...

Flayl said:

While my method of expressing it is fairly troll'ish, there is one undeniable truth when it comes to discussions of ANY kind:

People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

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Sweetheart, I love you too.
However, I would like you to stop saying I'm a scrub who doesn't know jack****. If I wouldn't be a valuable asset to the SBR, I would've been kicked out long ago. I'm still in there, though, so I guess my input is valuable.

But of course, Flayl, the God of Brawl, who is beating every player in the world and hosting tournaments with 9001 attendees knows everything about every aspect in the game better than anyone else.

Red Ryu said:

MK is much easier on Norfair compared to most stages.

Can't really comment on the rest.

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Why?

He can plank and Shark on 5 different platforms and you're in the air a lot.

Supermodel From Paris said:

ZSS has a pretty nasty (not unwinnable, but not fun) match-up vs Falco.

I'll be honest; the rest of ZSS' good match-ups are basically convenient. She doesn't have them because she's an amazing character (though she is very good) but because she has a few qualities that allow her to compete with said characters. She's kind of an aerial combo queen, which makes her good against Wario and MK, and she has a good item game, which makes her work against Diddy, and she does well vs large targets like Snake and King Dedede, so she does well vs them too.

This is mostly convenience, though. ZSS has a few match-ups that she loses slightly (like 45:55?) that you wouldn't expect, like Wolf (very slightly I guess) Sheik, Luigi. She also tends to go very very even with low and even bottom tier characters like Samus. So her match-ups are good (very few ones where she loses to any significant degree, and even the Falco match-up is evened out by stage selection) but it's only coincidence, heh.

In the end it doesn't matter why she has the match-ups though, only that she does. Because a weakness is only a weakness if there are good characters that can exploit them, and the only good character that can exploit ZSS' big weakness is Falco, and only on some stages.

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This is actually a perfect way of describing her. She has many excellent qualities but in most cases she doesn't have any abusable strategies that give her easy wins, which is probably why people don't play her much.

Onishiba said:

Sweetheart, I love you too.
However, I would like you to stop saying I'm a scrub who doesn't know jack****. If I wouldn't be a valuable asset to the SBR, I would've been kicked out long ago. I'm still in there, though, so I guess my input is valuable.

But of course, Flayl, the God of Brawl, who is beating every player in the world and hosting tournaments with 9001 attendees knows everything about every aspect in the game better than anyone else.

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Feel free to jibe me when I start making tier lists and claim I'm good/knowledgeable enough to be in the SBR.

Ray_Kalm said:

Oh, so, let me get this straight, if Snake were to switch places with Metaknight on the tier list, it wouldn't matter? I see.

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Well first of all we're not talking about order we're talking about making Ganondorf his own tier. Noone is disputing that Falcon is much better than Ganon. Second of all Snake and MK are characters who are incredibly important in the metagame. Falcon and Ganon aren't. Also the specific ordering in the tier list matters less and less down the tier list.

"Long story short, if the character is in S or A tier, order matters a lot. If the character is not, then unless it's at the top of the tier and another is at the bottom of the tier, there's not that huge of a difference."

zeldspazz said:

Why?

He can plank and Shark on 5 different platforms and you're in the air a lot.

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I'm guessing it's probably because he's seen a good Link beat a good Metaknight on that stage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWMen9KvflM

@Tien: I feel people tend to forget that even though there isnt a huge difference, there still is a difference from character to character.

Edit:

@Ray: I wow thats an old video, Id watch that back when I first got brawl (I was a late bloomer when it comes to getting it xD)

Tien2500 said:

Well first of all we're not talking about order we're talking about making Ganondorf his own tier. Noone is disputing that Falcon is much better than Ganon. Second of all Snake and MK are characters who are incredibly important in the metagame. Falcon and Ganon aren't. Also the specific ordering in the tier list matters less and less down the tier list.

"Long story short, if the character is in S or A tier, order matters a lot. If the character is not, then unless it's at the top of the tier and another is at the bottom of the tier, there's not that huge of a difference."

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So, basically, you're opinion is that the SBR shouldn't give a crap about where they place Ganondorf and Falcon because they aren't important to the metagame. Once again, that is YOUR opinion.

Tien2500 said:

Because Squirtle is really good. Some people place him in A which I think is a bit high but he's definitely B tier at least.

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I'm not seeing this.

I really think together they are much better than they are alone.

zeldspazz said:

Why?

He can plank and Shark on 5 different platforms and you're in the air a lot.

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If he planks I drop bombs.

He will die earlier much earlier since this is one of the few stages using lots of Dair is good for Link. The layout of the stage makes it much better for Link camp game. Lava can save Link from being gimping.

Trust me, it's Link's best stage. There are very few characters I wouldn't take there.

Ray_Kalm said:

So, basically, you're opinion is that the SBR shouldn't give a crap about where they place Ganondorf and Falcon because they aren't important to the metagame. Once again, that is YOUR opinion.

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I'll ignore for a second that you're putting words in my mouth. Lets just say pretend for a second that is my opinion.

Obviously what I'm saying is my opinion. I'm the one saying it. Duh. How about in the future every time I post something I put. THIS IS MY OPINION in giant red letters just like that as a disclaimer. I never made the claim that anything I said was 100% right or the only way to view things.

And my opinion is that the difference between Snake and MK is a meaningful distinction being that they are both characters near the top of the metagame who are played commonly and are significant.

On the contrary Ganon being in F or G or Z tier or OMG He Sucks Tier gives us no useful information. We know Ganon really sucks. We know he is the worst character in the game. We can see that in the list. What information does him being in a separate tier give us? That he really really really sucks as opposed to just really sucking?

Red Ryu said:

I'm not seeing this.

I really think together they are much better than they are alone.

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Charizard and Squirtle I think are better than Squirtle alone. Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard together I don't know.

Tien2500 said:

I'll ignore for a second that you're putting words in my mouth. Lets just say pretend for a second that is my opinion.

Obviously what I'm saying is my opinion. I'm the one saying it. Duh. How about in the future every time I post something I put. THIS IS MY OPINION in giant red letters just like that as a disclaimer. I never made the claim that anything I said was 100% right or the only way to view things.

And my opinion is that the difference between Snake and MK is a meaningful distinction being that they are both characters near the top of the metagame who are played commonly and are significant.

On the contrary Ganon being in F or G or Z tier or OMG He Sucks Tier gives us no useful information. We know Ganon really sucks. We know he is the worst character in the game. We can see that in the list. What information does him being in a separate tier give us? That he really really really sucks as opposed to just really sucking?

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I didn't say you were a 100% right, you only brought that upon yourself.

On the contrary Ganon being in F or G or Z tier or OMG He Sucks Tier gives us no useful information. We know Ganon really sucks. We know he is the worst character in the game. We can see that in the list. What information does him being in a separate tier give us? That he really really really sucks as opposed to just really sucking?

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and I'm putting words in your mouth? You, yourself, think that placing Ganon below F tier is going to be pointless, not because he doesn't deserve it, but because YOU THINK it'll be pointless.

A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It indicates how professional smashers expect each character to be able to perform under tournament conditions. Tiers thus measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments. Tier lists are common in fighting games as well as many other competitive games involving a large selection of characters, such as Pokémon.

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Tiers determine what a character could accomplish at it's highest level, but only if it's exposed. What we have on Ganon so far (more than 3 impossible match-ups being a main factor), is that he's not just the worst character in brawl, but he's the worst character in brawl in a seperate tier.

3. i dont even main sonic. I main metaknight. ask the people I go to tourneys with.

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lol metaknight

Onishiba said:

Unlike this guy, though, Inui and Gheb know ****.

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lol

Dear, we all know Gheb is knowledgeable... about some things.

However, the point is that he completely loses all reason and logic when it comes to discussing anything outside his expertise. His reasons for disliking some characters while praising others are just absurd, and he has a habit of blowing things out of proportion. In all due respect, he's biased as hell, and he doesn't know jack **** about some of the characters he criticizes or praises. When a person comes in here (from the and insists on associating that the MK of low tier tournaments is to be lower on the list than everyone that he dominates, and then gives outright wrong information to prove said radical point, along with completely biased and outright horrible matchup numbers for other characters that he knows absolutely nothing about that seemingly came out of nowhere to prove said radical point even further, how are we supposed to take him seriously, especially if he does this all the time, so we know he's not just trolling us? We don't care how smart he is or how knowledgable he is about Smash. We just want people to be knowledgable about what they are talking about at the time. He could be the best Wario player in the world, but if he comes in here and starts telling us that Ike loses to Sonic 70:30, or Snake 75:25 obviously three characters he knows absolutely nothing about, and of which Sonic in the current metagame actually loses most of the time about 40:60, then all that Wario experience isn't gonna matter ****, because we ain't talkin' about Wario, we're discussing Sonic, Ike, and Snake, and we will not refrain from telling him that he is a complete fool for pulling such ridiculously stupid matchup numbers out of his *** and then devoutly believing them when he could just LOOK at the characters themselves and instantly see what's wrong with his absolutely horrid points instead of basking his own misguided opinions and shutting out any possibility of him erroring because he's perfect and knows alot about Smash, which obviously makes him an expert on all characters... And you still expect us to take him seriously?

Inui is just Inui. Even if he's right (rare) he's wrong because his name has basically become a meme for everything johnny, assholish, and arrogant, lol.


Also, KID is 100% right on all subjects this time around in regards to CC. <<



Also, Tien, please realize that making Ganondorf G tier has nothing to do with how good he is.

The point is that G stands for the mother****ing Ganondorf. He's badass enough for his own tier. Screw the list, G stands for Ganondorf.

Ray_Kalm said:

I didn't say you were a 100% right, you only brought that upon yourself.

and I'm putting words in your mouth? You, yourself, think that placing Ganon below F tier is going to be pointless, not because he doesn't deserve it, but because YOU THINK it'll be pointless.

Tiers determine what a character could accomplish at it's highest level, but only if it's exposed. What we have on Ganon so far (more than 3 impossible match-ups being a main factor), is that he's not just the worst character in brawl, but he's the worst character in brawl in a seperate tier.

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Falcon has such crappy matchups that he can't be expected to win any tournament. Can he realistically beat Dedede? DK? MK? Falco? His chances of winning a big tournament are pretty much 0%. Ganon's are pretty much 0%. (in the current metagame). That's all I'm going to say about it.

Falcon has 1% chance of winning. If he runs into Ganondorfs/Sonics/Ikes/other matchups that are 4-6 or better all day and plays 100% perfectly and amazing, with every opponent never facing a Falcon before, he can win.

Ganondorf doesn't even have that hope.

Tien2500 said:

Falcon has such crappy matchups that he can't be expected to win any tournament. Can he realistically beat Dedede? DK? MK? Falco? His chances of winning a big tournament are pretty much 0%. Ganon's are pretty much 0%. (in the current metagame). That's all I'm going to say about it.

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No, Falcon can't win any 'big' tournaments, but he does have more of a chance than Ganon.

By your logic, we should place Lucas, Yoshi, Fox, Samus, Mario, Ness, Bowser, and Jigglypuff in the same tier because they all have (equally) the same amount of trouble winning a big tournament.

Nidtendofreak said:

Falcon has 1% chance of winning. If he runs into Ganondorfs/Sonics/Ikes/other matchups that are 4-6 or better all day and plays 100% perfectly and amazing, with every opponent never facing a Falcon before, he can win.

Ganondorf doesn't even have that hope.

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Falcon may also run into Shiek and have a heck of a better chance at winning.

Ray_Kalm said:

I never said that you said you were a 100% right, you only brought that upon yourself.

and I'm putting words in your mouth? You, yourself, think that placing Ganon below F tier is going to be pointless, not because he doesn't deserve it, but because YOU THINK it'll be pointless.

Tiers determine what a character could accomplish at it's highest level, but only if it's exposed. What we have on Ganon so far (more than 3 impossible match-ups being a main factor), is that he's not just the worst character in brawl, but he's the worst character in brawl in a seperate tier.

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Link, Jigglypuff, Samus, Falcon and Ganon deserve sharing tier in my opinion. They all suck. Ganon is the worst, Ray Kalm. But it doesn't mean he needs to be alone in his own tier.

Or Ganon and Falcon at least together. Not only they get ***** by the majority of the cast, but do not even have an advantage matchup (though characters like Link has such, they still have lots of ***** matchups).

Falcon is only slightly better than Ganon. Both are terrible (and clones). It's a way too hard to hit the opponent. Ganon hasn't the problem with way too small hitboxes (Ganon's dtilt is very good and also his fair can help this, so hitting small characters isn't as annoying as for Falcon: Falcon's dtilt sucks while his ground moves are terrible). This along his approach issues and lack of priority and speed in most of his attacks (Falcon's attack speed is slower than it looks). Ganon lacks way too much in speed and has way too many weaknesses. His recovery is worse than Falcon (but still Falcon's recovery is mediocre). He has more priority than Falcon (but still Sakurai put way too little priority on Ganon considering his play style). He also has extreme difficulty against campy people. Still, I consider matchups like 70-30 (or 75-25) and 100-0 as equal hard. 65-35 is also a quite hard matchup. They are both hopeless. Low tiers without help of a secondary that is high tier will never win in a very large tournaments. Seriously, with MK (very common character) and several other characters Falcon won't win a tourney with big players.

smashkng said:

Link, Jigglypuff, Samus, Falcon and Ganon deserve sharing tier in my opinion. They all suck. Ganon is the worst, Ray Kalm. But it doesn't mean he needs to be alone in his own tier.

Or Ganon and Falcon at least together. Not only they get ***** by the majority of the cast, but do not even have an advantage matchup (though characters like Link has such, they still have lots of ***** matchups).

Falcon is only slightly better than Ganon. Both are terrible (and clones). It's a way too hard to hit the opponent. Ganon hasn't the problem with way too small hitboxes (Ganon's dtilt is very good and also his fair can help this, so hitting small characters isn't as annoying as for Falcon: Falcon's dtilt sucks while his ground moves are terrible). This along his approach issues and lack of priority and speed in most of his attacks (Falcon's attack speed is slower than it looks). Ganon lacks way too much in speed and has way too many weaknesses. His recovery is worse than Falcon (but still Falcon's recovery is mediocre). He has more priority than Falcon (but still Sakurai put way too little priority on Ganon considering his play style). He also has extreme difficulty against campy people. Still, I consider matchups like 70-30 (or 75-25) and 100-0 as equal hard. 65-35 is also a quite hard matchup. They are both hopeless. Low tiers without help of a secondary that is high tier will never win in a very large tournaments. Seriously, with MK (very common character) and several other characters Falcon won't win a tourney with big players.

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But, the fact that Ganon has a much harder time still remains.

Ray_Kalm said:

But, the fact that Ganon has a much harder time still remains.

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Who cares 80-20 and 90-10? They are both horrible matchups.

Ok.

We took a vote in the SBR, and we all agreed to give Ganon the G Tier all to himself. This vote was unanimous- 100% of the members voted yes.

So there, Ganon gets his own tier, we all acknowledge that he is the worst in the game, every one wins.






... Except Ganon.

Jigglypuff/Samus/Link are miles ahead of Falcon and Ganon. Still not very viable but have hope, unlike Ganon and Falcon.



Edit: But Ganon is still epic.

I cant see the matchup of Sonic vs Falcon being anything less than 65:35.
Its so stupid to play

Kitamerby said:

Inui is just Inui. Even if he's right (rare) he's wrong because his name has basically become a meme for everything johnny, assholish, and arrogant, lol.

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You're dumb, lol. I'm usually right because I just post facts. You know, proven stuff that can't be questioned. It's just people (like you) are extremely biased and ignorant.

Idc what you think my name is. At least people know it and I'm unquestionably important and a top player. Who are you?

Inui, not to shoot you down but, I am the type that views a persons words and arguments as the validity for their statements.

Not for whom they are, you can be jesus when playing melee or Brawl, but it doesn't go hand in hand with your arguments.

So strike that second part out since its somewhat hurtful to your first statement.
*smacks you with an objection as well*

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3318830

Sadaharu Inui said:

You're dumb, lol. I'm usually right because I just post facts. You know, proven stuff that can't be questioned. It's just people (like you) are extremely biased and ignorant.

Idc what you think my name is. At least people know it and I'm unquestionably important and a top player. Who are you?

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Like the "fact" that Meta Knight is the 4th best character in the game?

ShadowLink84 said:

Inui, not to shoot you down but, I am the type that views a persons words and arguments as the validity for their statements.

Not for whom they are, you can be jesus when playing melee or Brawl, but it doesn't go hand in hand with your arguments.

So strike that second part out since its somewhat hurtful to your first statement.
*smacks you with an objection as well*

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3318828

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good sir, I was not making an argument at all

I just said people know me and I'm a top player regardless of bias/hate/whatever, and nobody knows who that guy is (the truth)

I know what you're saying, which is why arguments coming from someone like you, who's not a top player, are valid to me

Kofu said:

Like the "fact" that Meta Knight is the 4th best character in the game?

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LOL @ anyone taking that seriously