The Official SBR-B Brawl Tier List v3.0

[ShadowLink84]

CGs are ****

He grabs like a ******** baby dinosaur AND the range is bad.

His camping is pro.

use a multihit aerial move and you'll break through with ease. Or you can jab it.

His planking? oh my god...

I agree, its ridiculously good.

hes fast, hes small and hard to hit.

k

thunder is god.

What?
I haven't been hit by it unless i screwed up badly.

Pikachu suffers a SEVERE lack of range and while his camping seems nice, it really isnt hat comparable to other characters.
His CG's are good but again, lack of range makes it an issue against characters like Marth, MK, Olimar etc etc

he just has way too many incredibly abusable moves/characteristics[/COLOR]

I think you should look at his negatives for a bit.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Can he even CG Marth or Olimar?

 

[ShadowLink84]

i think he CG's the entire cast except for floaties.

 

[smashkng]

Pikachu is top tier, I have definitely been saying this since january.

CGs are ****
His camping is pro.
His planking? oh my god...
hes fast, hes small and hard to hit.
thunder is god.

he just has way too many incredibly abusable moves/characteristics

Pikachu is also very light. His size is comparable to MK, G&W and Olimar. And hasn't also MK a great planking?

 

[thrillagorilla]

Its not just the CGs, its also the 0 - death lock and the different ways of setting it up that make Pikachu so dangerous. Couple that with his superior stage movement and control, his recovery and the large amount of options with his regular move-set and you have a very good character. He also falls under the same category as MK with his light weight... U-air is a great momentum canceling tool and can help him to survive much longer than he should. Once people start using the CGs and lock regularly, he is going to climb even higher on the list and rightly so.

As to those who still think Wario is a top character... I wonder what you base your ideals for a good character on. He is the bridge between high and top, but no higher. He has a massive exploitable weakness (Even the good Captain gets a free knee in if I'm not mistaken) and his game relies a lot on how good the player is and how poorly the opponent reads. Once people get over the "OMG I can't hit him!" phase he will start to drop. He isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, just not great.

 

[§leepy God]

As to those who still think Wario is a top character... I wonder what you base your ideals for a good character on. He is the bridge between high and top, but no higher. He has a massive exploitable weakness (Even the good Captain gets a free knee in if I'm not mistaken) and his game relies a lot on how good the player is and how poorly the opponent reads. Once people get over the "OMG I can't hit him!" phase he will start to drop. He isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, just not great.

♪ Quote for I'm going to make this my sig and make sure more people read this... if you mind? :D †

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Wario can work around his weaknesses.

His only true bad MU's are Marth (40:60) and MK (45:55 if you call it a disadvantage)

 

[thrillagorilla]

♪ Quote for I'm going to make this my sig and make sure more people read this... if you mind? :D †

Not at all, go ahead.

Wario can work around his weaknesses.

His only true bad MU's are Marth (40:60) and MK (45:55 if you call it a disadvantage)

A good player can work around it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is there. Again, it will take some time but he will likely got the route of Kirby. Once people know the MU, his stock will drop a bit.

 

[Nefarious B]

The thing is Wario has pretty much every good trait you could want in a character, except for range. His grab releases aren't a huge deal, I don't know why people keep thinking they are.

Range is his true problem. His positives are so ridiculous that he has to have bad range to even be somewhat balanced.
-Heavy weight, with amazing recovery and momentum canceling, as well as crazy aerial DI means his survival is some of the best in the game.
-Can combo with heavy damage attacks
-Is amazingly safe with approaches, and has excellent mixups
-Bite, which (imo) is one of the best moves in the game for it's versatility
-Has some of the strongest and easiest-to-hit-with killing moves in the game
-Dthrow CG is an excellent threat

Now how can you look at that and tell me that he isn't a top tier character? He has amazing damage wracking, amazing safety, and the ability to kill while staying alive himself. You guys are looking at this character and pointing out the flaw that he has the least issue with. Range, not grab releases, is what keeps this character from being at the tip top.

 

[thrillagorilla]

The thing is Wario has pretty much every good trait you could want in a character, except for range. His grab releases aren't a huge deal, I don't know why people keep thinking they are.

Range is his true problem. His positives are so ridiculous that he has to have bad range to even be somewhat balanced.
-Heavy weight, with amazing recovery and momentum canceling, as well as crazy aerial DI means his survival is some of the best in the game.
-Can combo with heavy damage attacks
-Is amazingly safe with approaches, and has excellent mixups
-Bite, which (imo) is one of the best moves in the game for it's versatility
-Has some of the strongest and easiest-to-hit-with killing moves in the game
-Dthrow CG is an excellent threat

Now how can you look at that and tell me that he isn't a top tier character? He has amazing damage wracking, amazing safety, and the ability to kill while staying alive himself. You guys are looking at this character and pointing out the flaw that he has the least issue with. Range, not grab releases, is what keeps this character from being at the tip top.

Its the combination of the grab release and the range. He as a character has to rely on the opponent missing a read to actually get in to use that great move-set of his. If he makes a mistake, he gets a KO move on him that he can't escape from a good portion of the cast. A great player can do amazing things with him, but it is the player's talents rather than the character's being showcased. I can think of 6 other characters that have much more "broken" or "OP" traits about them that they can use in match to much greater effect than Wario. Hence why I say he is at the bottom of top, top of high.

 

[Nefarious B]

You can't deny that the character himself has excellent traits that help him get in better than any other character in the game, and avoid grabs better than any character in the game. That's the character. He's built to bait, to cause your opponent to miss a read. He's just better at those things than other characters.

He's top 5, along with MK Snake Diddy and Falco

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

A good player can work around it, but it doesn't change the fact that it is there. Again, it will take some time but he will likely got the route of Kirby. Once people know the MU, his stock will drop a bit.

But you see, Wario's weaknesses of lacking range, projectiles, and grab releases when you not telling the other side of the story.

Wario's air momentum is ridiculous. He can weave in and out without any problems what so ever. He can run in and get out without his opponent even touching him, a great hit and run character.

Combine this with his weight and good recovery with a boke, you have a character that can live ridiculously long. Gimping him is possible with a recovery like this and an amazing air dodge, it's not going to happen.

His kill power is amazing, waft can kill very early against most characters, Uair is a top killer, Fsmash has super armor to stop clashes. He can kill very well.

He does have weaknesses, but his strengths make up for it.

edit: beaten to it.

 

[thrillagorilla]

Shouldn't have gotten into a debate right before being ready for bed.

You can't deny that the character himself has excellent traits that help him get in better than any other character in the game, and avoid grabs better than any character in the game. That's the character. He's built to bait, to cause your opponent to miss a read. He's just better at those things than other characters.

He's top 5, along with MK Snake Diddy and Falco

I am not denying Wario's good traits, I simply didn't post them because most people here already know them and my point was that Wario as a character still has to wait for an opponent's mistake to take advantage of anything you or Red Ryu listed. There are characters that don't require that, hence why they are better (in the case of the ICs, the reward is even greater for that forced mistake). I am not saying he is bad, I am saying that there are other characters that are better.

But you see, Wario's weaknesses of lacking range, projectiles, and grab releases when you not telling the other side of the story.

Wario's air momentum is ridiculous. He can weave in and out without any problems what so ever. He can run in and get out without his opponent even touching him, a great hit and run character.

Combine this with his weight and good recovery with a boke, you have a character that can live ridiculously long. Gimping him is possible with a recovery like this and an amazing air dodge, it's not going to happen.

His kill power is amazing, waft can kill very early against most characters, Uair is a top killer, Fsmash has super armor to stop clashes. He can kill very well.

He does have weaknesses, but his strengths make up for it.

edit: beaten to it.

Yes, but again my point was that the fact he has a noticeable weakness already makes his inclusion in the top questionable when there are better candidates. Yes his air movement is amazing, but any character that out-ranges him in the air can give him trouble if they know the MU and they have the right tool (a fast aerial with little ending lag).

I'd like to go into more detail, but I need to get to bed. I'll try and pick this up again some time later this week.

 

[Nefarious B]

Also I know you said you're going to bed but if anyone wants to take over for him feel free, cause it seems to me that too many people in this community don't understand just how rediculous this character is.

my point was that Wario as a character still has to wait for an opponent's mistake to take advantage of anything you or Red Ryu listed. There are characters that don't require that, hence why they are better (in the case of the ICs, the reward is even greater for that forced mistake).

You could argue that plenty of characters are the same way. You mentioned ICs have to pressure their opponents into getting grabbed. DDD is the same way. Snake relies heavily on pressure and punish game. MK is much the same way with his tilts and nado pokes. Falco pressures early to try and setup for his CG. If you notice the pattern, every character in this game has to wait for their opponents to make mistakes, the top tier is just made up of the ones who can pressure well enough to make those mistakes happen more often.

Yes, but again my point was that the fact he has a noticeable weakness already makes his inclusion in the top questionable when there are better candidates. Yes his air movement is amazing, but any character that out-ranges him in the air can give him trouble if they know the MU and they have the right tool (a fast aerial with little ending lag).

First off, saying that he has a noticeable weakness and therefore shouldn't be top is a pretty terrible argument. Snake: Juggle traps and gimpable/spikable recovery. Falco: Gimpable recovery, bad killing ability. Diddy: Gimpable recovery, bad killing ability. ICs: If seperated they suck, gimpable, if they can't grab you they have a much harder time killing.

Even the best character has weaknesses, they're just hardest to exploit (hence the best character).

Second, you say that any character that has a fast aerial with little ending lag can "give him trouble". Yeah that's pretty much what having a weakness means. The thing is, the only characters that can really do this well enough to truly "give him trouble" to the extent that he loses the matchup, are MK and Marth. Oh hey, his two bad matchups, surprise.

 

[TKD]

Wario can work around his weaknesses.

His only true bad MU's are Marth (40:60) and MK (45:55 if you call it a disadvantage)

Actually, Wario's bad match-ups are Meta Knight, Snake, Marth, King Dedede and Peach. LOL.
Pikachu's not very good. He's just OK. He has a 2/8 match-up vs Marth and Ice Climbers. Hard to believe, I know...but who would play a 2/8 match-up in tournament? His horrible match-up odds look like Fox's. haha

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I am not denying Wario's good traits, I simply didn't post them because most people here already know them and my point was that Wario as a character still has to wait for an opponent's mistake to take advantage of anything you or Red Ryu listed. There are characters that don't require that, hence why they are better (in the case of the ICs, the reward is even greater for that forced mistake). I am not saying he is bad, I am saying that there are other characters that are better.

But you see this application of mistakes is true for all characters. Even Ganondorf, Link, jiggly puff, etc. can take advantage of others if they make a mistake.

Wario baits by moving in and out and looks for opening and holes. Marth uses his spacing tools to pressure an opening, even ice climbers need to use Ice blocks, blizzard, tilts, and smashes to force huge mistakes.

It applies to everyone.

Yes, but again my point was that the fact he has a noticeable weakness already makes his inclusion in the top questionable when there are better candidates. Yes his air movement is amazing, but any character that out-ranges him in the air can give him trouble if they know the MU and they have the right tool (a fast aerial with little ending lag).

I'd like to go into more detail, but I need to get to bed. I'll try and pick this up again some time later this week.

This isn't different for anyone in top tier.

MK: light, no projectiles, poor air momentum
Snake: jugglable, gimp able recovery if low
Falco: Can't kill well, predictable recovery
Diddy: Can't kill well, short range, light
DDD: juggleable, camped, poor air momentum

If you know the match-up their tools become less threatening.

Actually, Wario's bad match-ups are Meta Knight, Snake, Marth, King Dedede and Peach. LOL.

Wario boards list Snake as their advantage.

King DeDeDe is so horribly stage dependent it's not even funny. FD DDD *****, Norfair Wario *****.

Pikachu's not very good. He's just OK. He has a 2/8 match-up vs Marth and Ice Climbers. Hard to believe, I know...but who would play a 2/8 match-up in tournament? His horrible match-up odds look like Fox's. haha

Please tell me your joking.

Marth is his worst MU, and it's a 35:65.

Anther plays against IC just fine.

 

[DMG]

As to those who still think Wario is a top character... I wonder what you base your ideals for a good character on. He is the bridge between high and top, but no higher. He has a massive exploitable weakness (Even the good Captain gets a free knee in if I'm not mistaken) and his game relies a lot on how good the player is and how poorly the opponent reads. Once people get over the "OMG I can't hit him!" phase he will start to drop. He isn't bad by any stretch of the imagination, just not great.

His defensive game is very good. He's definitely better than Pikachu, IC's, people under him (besides Falco and Diddy, those two below him are better).

♪ Quote for I'm going to make this my sig and make sure more people read this... if you mind? :D †

That is your quote? A guy questioning the placement of Wario?

... ... ...

Are you serious? Go get a new quote. That post was not quote worthy; it was not funny, not full of win, he just posted "Oh hey this is my opinion, what do you guys think?". lol.

Wario can work around his weaknesses.

His only true bad MU's are Marth (40:60) and MK (45:55 if you call it a disadvantage)

Marth, MK, Peach, Dedede (heavily Stage dependent, but in conservative regions he clearly has the advantage.

Its the combination of the grab release and the range. He as a character has to rely on the opponent missing a read to actually get in to use that great move-set of his. If he makes a mistake, he gets a KO move on him that he can't escape from a good portion of the cast. A great player can do amazing things with him, but it is the player's talents rather than the character's being showcased. I can think of 6 other characters that have much more "broken" or "OP" traits about them that they can use in match to much greater effect than Wario. Hence why I say he is at the bottom of top, top of high.

Bottom of the top if the top is top 5, Top of High if the top is only top 4. Otherwise, no.

Wario boards list Snake as their advantage.

Marth is his worst MU, and it's a 35:65.

Snake is probably only 55:45 Wario's favor. It shifts more towards even/45:55 Snake favor in a conservative region. In a region like the Midwest though, I honestly don't think Snake would win the set, especially if it's a longer set like 3/5 or 4/7.

Marth is probably only 40:60 (He has the potential to be 65:35, but I've not come across a Marth who was willing to camp the right way for 8 minutes. Not even Haze wants to sit in one spot and frame trap me lol, I don't blame him it's boring).

 

[mountain_tiger]

Marth, MK, Peach, Dedede (heavily Stage dependent, but in conservative regions he clearly has the advantage.

I always thought that Wario vs Peach was even.

IMO, Wario should be 5th. He's definitely S Tier quality, though I don't think he should be quite as high as 3rd.

 

[Kitamerby]

Not Even Haze Wants To Sit In One Spot And Frame Trap Me Lol, I Don't Blame Him It's Boring).

WHAT. THE. ****?

DMG calling camping boring?

Dear god, the apocalypse is here.

Run for your lives, everybody! The Ganon mains have come to smash our faces in!

 

[DMG]

Camping as Marth against Wario, when done right, is boring. You don't move much, you don't have long term strategies, it's just "Hey, I'm going to do this, frame trap Wario, and now he can't beat me"

 

[Kitamerby]

Camping as Marth against Wario, when done right, is boring. You don't move much, you don't have long term strategies, it's just "Hey, I'm going to do this, frame trap Wario, and now he can't beat me"

Yeah, but you can do it on any stage, so you can look at other things once you get tired of that pretty blob brain thing in the background of Brinstar, like the lovely green forest on castle seige or the beautiful scenery and lake on Battlefield.


Can't go wrong with options and variety like that.

But I guess you have a point.

On a side note, why the heck are you up this early?

 

[Suspect]

He just finished camping​

 

[DMG]

DMG doesn't sleep.

Ask the Texas guys.

 

[Kitamerby]

DMG doesn't sleep.

Ask the Texas guys.

Good stuff.

I never noticed just how long of a corridor Brinstar took place in until I saw your thread and took your advice.

It's a really long corridor. =D

Such a neat background for a stage.


On a side note, Wario has quite possibly the most amazing get-up attack animation(from a failed tech/Snake Dthrow) in the game. He spins like a top with that awesome grin on his face. =D

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Marth, MK, Peach, Dedede (heavily Stage dependent, but in conservative regions he clearly has the advantage.

I don't think Peach has a clear advantage in the MU, 45:55 at the worst. Yeah she has her little grab release foot stool chain grab trick, arcing Fsmash, etc. but I can't see her having a notable advantage on that alone. He still lives longer, and can kill earlier than she can.

While DDD is annoying, both of you have some pretty bad **** counter picks against one another. Granted some TO just outright get rid of some of Wario's really good CPs, Norfair being a prime example.

Snake is probably only 55:45 Wario's favor. It shifts more towards even/45:55 Snake favor in a conservative region. In a region like the Midwest though, I honestly don't think Snake would win the set, especially if it's a longer set like 3/5 or 4/7.

Marth is probably only 40:60 (He has the potential to be 65:35, but I've not come across a Marth who was willing to camp the right way for 8 minutes. Not even Haze wants to sit in one spot and frame trap me lol, I don't blame him it's boring).

Marth comment was directed at Pikachu not Wario.

but yeah Wario vs Marth is only 40:60.

I feel silly talking about this to you. I'm trying to discuss this when I don't main the character and my only Wario experience is against Quik.

 

[DMG]

Trust me, Peach has a clear advantage. I didn't think so at first, but I noticed that it looked like she had a frame trap on Wario (I always thought it was possible for her, but I never saw someone do it dedicated/well). After looking into it more, I was correct.

Also the grab release Footstool/Bair lock on Wario doesn't work. He can escape it. Even with that not working, she clearly beats him, in the same sense as Marth as they both have similar objectives on what they need to do to beat Wario. She doesn't do it as well as Marth, but she has some advantages that he doesn't (control/timing over the trap for example).

The only reason the Dedede matchup would be close to even is strictly because of stages. It depends on the starter stages as well as the CP stages. Depending on the list of stages, it can go from 60:40 Wario overall to 40:60 Dedede overall.

When I refer to the frame trap, I'm talking about the characters putting Wario in a large enough bind that frame wise he has a lot of issues. It abuses how many frames it takes to jump, how many frames it takes to airdodge/landing lag, accounts for variable positioning on a X-Y plane, subtle threats leading to situations where you cannot stop both/multiple threats while still being safe, etc. Basically, it's like a more effective zoning because Wario is also disadvantaged frame wise (usually quite heavily).

 

[Browny]

So I heard someone say not too long ago we can expect a new list in November? can someone else please verify this? I just want to check, so if it is I can bring back my member voted tier list thread in user blogs

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Not November. December IIRC is the most likely time.

 

[DMG]

I'm gonna feel dumb for saying this even though I am in the SBR myself:

I have no idea when you can expect a new list.

We are doing things a bit differently this time, and currently we've got a lot of discussion going on right now. I've not payed attention as to when we expect to be done.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

The new tier list should come out at around December 4th, so a little less than two months.

I just hope the SBR's a little more accurate this time around.

Spoiler

Ganon at G Tier.

 

[Ripple]

---S-----
Meta Knight
Snake
diddy
Falco
wario

---A---
King Dedede
Marth
Ice Climbers
Pikachu
Olimar
R.O.B.
Mr. Game & Watch

---B---
Lucario
Kirby
Zero Suit Samus
Pit
Toon Link
Donkey Kong

----C----
Peach
sheik
Luigi
Fox
Wolf
Sonic


----D----
Bowser
Ike
Zelda
Pokémon Trainer


----E----
Lucas
Mario
Yoshi
Ness
Samus

----F----
Link
Falcon
Jigglypuff

----G----
Ganondorf


take THAT SBR tier list v 3.0

 

[Ray_Kalm]

That's a horrible list.

 

[Ripple]

That's a horrible list.

1 man's opinion

 

[Ray_Kalm]

1 man's opinion

I guess.

10chars.

 

[Ripple]

I fail to see what is wrong with my list. although I could see G&W moving up a spot or 2

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Pikachu, R.O.B, Lucas and Ganondorf are too high. There's more than that, but I'm too busy to point them out.

 

[Vermy]

That's a horrible list.

Seconded.

I fail to see what is wrong with my list.

That's because it's your list. Of course you don't see anything wrong with it. You fail to see what is wrong with it because you don't want to be wrong. I'd point out the flaws in the list myself, but odds are I'd be wrong about a few. Making your own list is a silly idea, (granted i fell victim to the trend and posted mine a little while back) since no single person has a wealth of knowledge about every characters current metagame, matchups, tournament rankings etc.

 

[Ripple]

Seconded.


That's because it's your list. Of course you don't see anything wrong with it. You fail to see what is wrong with it because you don't want to be wrong. I'd point out the flaws in the list myself, but odds are I'd be wrong about a few. Making your own list is a silly idea, (granted i fell victim to the trend and posted mine a little while back) since no single person has a wealth of knowledge about every characters current metagame, matchups, tournament rankings etc.

you wait and see....you'll all see. my list is the greatest list there is and most accurate. GUARANTEED!

 

[Vermy]

Good luck with that.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

I'm still a bit stumbled on why the SBR hasn't given Ganondorf his own tier below F yet.

It took them a year to figure out that he's the worst character in the game, I imagine how long it'll take them to realize that he's a level below both Link and Falcon.