I thought there was some degree of debate as to who the best character in SF4 is?
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Official Metaknight Discussion
- Thread starter Hylian
- Start date
- Status
Pac West.
And for amusment sake, how would you rank the metas since it was universally accepted for a while I think that Dojo was number 2. This isn't meant to be snarky btw.
Edit: Sagats the Best char in 4 but Akuma arguably has the best tools. It's just that since he has the least amount of durabilty, he can't make nearly as many mistakes as Sagat and thus Sagat gets the top notch. OVERSIMPLIFIED EXPLANATION.
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Nope, Sagat is the undisputed best. Followed by Ryu and Boxer. But Sagat's MU aren't as good as MK's.
Reeaad. Important points for both sides.
The Average Character Ranking
- 270 (out of 2 Snakes)
- 256.09 (out of 3 Diddy's)
- 252.59 (out of 2 Ice Climbers')
-206.28 (out of 13 Metaknight's)
- 173.51 (out of 2 Marth's)
Numbers were calculated by taking a sample size of 29 players. These 29 players were players who contributed 90 points or more to the current character rankings.
Despite having a little less than half of the representation, Metaknight is only 4th best in terms of average placings. Essentially, a population of 7 non-MK players all have a substantially higher average. MK's 4000 point placement is due to MK's over representation and the remaining cast's under representation.
MK does not perform at a level that is beyond expectation. He simply performs at a certain level at a high rate. Regardless of attendance, a Snake, Diddy, and Ice Climbers still out performs all Metaknight's with the exception of Mew2King. Why is this happening? Because certain players have stepped up their game and have brought their character to higher levels within the metagame.
Overswarm likes to call these players "outliers" but what does being the best at your character have anything to do with character representation? If you take away the Ally, ADHD, and M2K you're still left with Lain at the top of the rankings. However, it's important to recognize these three.
Surprisingly enough ADHD, M2K, and Ally weren't always as good as they are today. In the beginning, DSF's Snake ruled the WC while Azen's Lucario and M2K's DDD ruled the East Coast. ADHD and Ally were busy playing Wifi while M2K was getting his Metaknight demolished by Azen's Lucario. Time passed and M2K claimed the top. More time passed and Ally joined him. More time passed and now ADHD is up there.
The trend is that as time goes by people get better. Some better than others. Imagine that. No one could predict that Ally's Snake could succeed where DSF's Snake failed. No one could predict that ADHD's Diddy would be the second thorn in M2K's back after Ninjalink. But these events are happening so why would pro-ban predict that it will no longer happen?
The game is not stagnant. It is moving and progressing and growing. The current Top 4 has foru different characters at the top despite the massive MK army that follows.
The problem is that there are some who are fine with this being the case. Then there are others who are not. This is what essentially separates anti-ban from pro-ban. When I look at the current metagame I see healthy. When Overswarm looks at the current metagame he see's unhealthy. We're looking at the same thing, but what changes is our lenses. How we perceive the metagame alters significantly. How we see the metagame evolving becomes vastly different. What he may see as a problem may be normal in my eyes and vice versa.
This is Omni from a neutral standpoint.
The truth is that there's a chance the metagame could improve or deter regardless of which direction as we, the community, take it. For all it's worth, it could be a mistake keeping Metaknight in the game. At the same time, it could be a mistake removing Metaknight from the game. There is no right or wrong way as long as the community moves forward.
I won't be making many arguments at this point. It simply comes down to what you believe in; what kind of lenses YOU see the game is essentially what will make the game be made or break in your eyes.
It's nice to see so many people making such a huge effort to move forward even if we see things differently. As much as I get annoyed by Overswarm, he is one of the main reasons why this community moves forward. His methods are sneaky and his sarcastic attitude reminds me of a high school cheerleader, but his intentions are not to hurt the community but rather to help. The same goes for myself.
That's all I have to say for now.
The Average Character Ranking
- 270 (out of 2 Snakes) - 256.09 (out of 3 Diddy's) - 252.59 (out of 2 Ice Climbers') -206.28 (out of 13 Metaknight's) - 173.51 (out of 2 Marth's)Numbers were calculated by taking a sample size of 29 players. These 29 players were players who contributed 90 points or more to the current character rankings.
Despite having a little less than half of the representation, Metaknight is only 4th best in terms of average placings. Essentially, a population of 7 non-MK players all have a substantially higher average. MK's 4000 point placement is due to MK's over representation and the remaining cast's under representation.
MK does not perform at a level that is beyond expectation. He simply performs at a certain level at a high rate. Regardless of attendance, a Snake, Diddy, and Ice Climbers still out performs all Metaknight's with the exception of Mew2King. Why is this happening? Because certain players have stepped up their game and have brought their character to higher levels within the metagame.
Overswarm likes to call these players "outliers" but what does being the best at your character have anything to do with character representation? If you take away the Ally, ADHD, and M2K you're still left with Lain at the top of the rankings. However, it's important to recognize these three.
Surprisingly enough ADHD, M2K, and Ally weren't always as good as they are today. In the beginning, DSF's Snake ruled the WC while Azen's Lucario and M2K's DDD ruled the East Coast. ADHD and Ally were busy playing Wifi while M2K was getting his Metaknight demolished by Azen's Lucario. Time passed and M2K claimed the top. More time passed and Ally joined him. More time passed and now ADHD is up there.
The trend is that as time goes by people get better. Some better than others. Imagine that. No one could predict that Ally's Snake could succeed where DSF's Snake failed. No one could predict that ADHD's Diddy would be the second thorn in M2K's back after Ninjalink. But these events are happening so why would pro-ban predict that it will no longer happen?
The game is not stagnant. It is moving and progressing and growing. The current Top 4 has foru different characters at the top despite the massive MK army that follows.
The problem is that there are some who are fine with this being the case. Then there are others who are not. This is what essentially separates anti-ban from pro-ban. When I look at the current metagame I see healthy. When Overswarm looks at the current metagame he see's unhealthy. We're looking at the same thing, but what changes is our lenses. How we perceive the metagame alters significantly. How we see the metagame evolving becomes vastly different. What he may see as a problem may be normal in my eyes and vice versa.
This is Omni from a neutral standpoint.
The truth is that there's a chance the metagame could improve or deter regardless of which direction as we, the community, take it. For all it's worth, it could be a mistake keeping Metaknight in the game. At the same time, it could be a mistake removing Metaknight from the game. There is no right or wrong way as long as the community moves forward.
I won't be making many arguments at this point. It simply comes down to what you believe in; what kind of lenses YOU see the game is essentially what will make the game be made or break in your eyes.
It's nice to see so many people making such a huge effort to move forward even if we see things differently. As much as I get annoyed by Overswarm, he is one of the main reasons why this community moves forward. His methods are sneaky and his sarcastic attitude reminds me of a high school cheerleader, but his intentions are not to hurt the community but rather to help. The same goes for myself.
That's all I have to say for now.
I thought there was some talk about Akuma being best. Do you have a link to the SF4 tier lists? I couldn't find the most current one.
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
heeeellll no. You're thinking about Super Turbo where Akuma was broken and banned and O.Sagat was slightly less broken and and soft banned.
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/
http://www.eventhubs.com/guides/2008/oct/17/street-fighter-4-tiers-character-rankings/
6Mizu
Smash Champion
This logic is BS.
If you Lrn the MU you should know the MKs options and know how to deal with those otions.
I don't care how many people agree with it.
Ok. And what if the MK player learns your options? And he has a far better moveset which gives him more options than most characters do. You act as if once you learn to beat MKs options he has no other ones when in fact he has better options than all of the cast which is why he does as well as he does.
I don't know whats BS. All he said in a nutshell was that Meta Knight is the best character and that overcentralization is a bad thing.
Even if you learn the matchup and know to pick the best options for given situations, that doesn't change the fact that Meta almost always has more and better options. He's the best character.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
idk I thought Dojo and Tyrant were both like tied for number 2 but that same time period Larry 6-0d tyrant and dojo lost to hylian and razor in the same weekend and got 4th. Dojo's slightly better at the mk ditto but not by much. It's pretty close.
oh but um... that shouldn't be happening because mk is so broken and ***** everyone by a lot and should be banned I guess they were just flukes
oh but um... that shouldn't be happening because mk is so broken and ***** everyone by a lot and should be banned I guess they were just flukes
You cannot assume that MK will always have the upper hand, thats ridiculous. Give it some time and check if its true.
Clear evidence MK is not a broken, God level character. ADHD, DEHF, Ally all with different characters.
All I'm saying now is "Get Better" seeing as this is what a lot of you need to do. I'm sick of the pro-banners coming back with the same stuff they've had for the past 2 years, so I'm going to start with that logic myself.
Get Better.
All I'm saying now is "Get Better" seeing as this is what a lot of you need to do. I'm sick of the pro-banners coming back with the same stuff they've had for the past 2 years, so I'm going to start with that logic myself.
Get Better.
we prefer the word outliers, it makes disregarding things that are inconvenient to our agenda sound much better.
I guess if your definition of being broken is simply not having even matchups than yes MK is broken. I like using broken for other things though, like IDC.
Judo777
Smash Master
- Joined
- Sep 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,627
Yea they were talking about super streetfighter 2 turbo where akuma was banned. Also he was definitely beatable otochun beat inoki at xmania 3 if u want 1 example. O sagat was soft banned and he was definitely beatable. They just banned them cause they were OP.
So far all evidence (frame data, priority, results and whatever) shows that MK does have the best options in the widest range of situations. There is always the potential for some sort of major break through but it doesn't seem particularly likely considering it would take a pretty major discovery.
he goes even with snake, falco, and diddy.
Not according to the facts the pro-ban has gathered.
Mew2King
King of the Mews
you can't just base things off frames, priority, and stuff like that. This is why Marth is so overrated in Melee. Wasn't I the only marth in the top 32 at genesis. Taj I think maybe too I forget. Marth lacks kills and projectile and other things, and Sheik Fox Falco and especially Jiggs are far better characters than him as a whole.
All of those are very highly debatable. Especially Falco since that's only true with certain rules in place.
Overswarm
is laughing at you
- Joined
- May 4, 2005
- Messages
- 21,181
90 points or more? Metaknight has 4000. How, exactly, did you arrive at 90?
In addition to this, did you calculate how many times MK mains have knocked each other out in relation to how many times other mains knock themselves out? Seeing as how you're attempting to alter the data due to population, this is a big deal. After all, there are more Metaknights.
What players were used so others can check your work?
Why do you expect MK's results not to suffer when he has 13 people coming in? This alone indicates that the character with two is going to have less variance. In other words, if you pick two medicore Diddy mains that are getting 3rd and 5th on a consistent basis, but then pick 5 ultra MKs that makes 1st and 2nd and 8 sucky ones that make only 5-8th, Diddy will win out.
If you can get a scoring of 1-10, with 10 being the best and you have two Diddys:
8
6
You have a total of 14, divided by 2 is a score of 7.
If you have 13 MKs:
10
10
8
3
4
5
6
5
8
4
7
4
2
Total of 76, divided by 13 you get a score of 5.8
Random numbers, many of them close to the Diddys placement. More importantly, the first three match or improve on Diddy's placement. When you compare the top to the top, MK wins. I can't do this with your numbers as I don't have them, but this is merely meant as an example to show why what you're doing doesn't make any sense.
You've selected two black belt kung fu martial artists and put them in a ring against Wayne Gracie and then a handful of jujitsu enthusiasts and then divided the results by the average of players. You don't get meaningful data at all, in any shape or form.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
Very true, all I'm saying is that when you know the MU completely.....you guys would not be complaining like others that know the MU. Nor would we be having this discussion. So quit whining and go play some MKs.
So what in your opinion are the things that MK lacks?
?
DEHF(falco) consistently beats the second best MK
Ally(snake) goes 50:50 with the best MK
ADHD beats the best MK more than not at this point
the pro-ban argument thus far has been "lol top players don't count, best of every character gets discarded", I don't see how you can call that a legit standpoint.
Hey, while you're still here, you said Meta has close matchups. Obv Snake and Diddy are close and in a world without planking falco as well. Icies merely have to wait for you to **** up three times...so give Dojo a break for losing to Hylian lol.
I'd like to preemptively point out 60:40's aren't unwinnable, which is why we don't (well I can only talk for myself) consider MK broken, just too good.
edit:
edit:
Too late.
He meant 90 points or more each. The players gathered were as follows:
Code:
Name Characters Score
Mew2King Meta Knight 843.38
Ally Snake 711.28
ADHD Diddy Kong 620.38
lain Ice Climbers, King Dedede 369.69
Tyrant Meta Knight 302.78
Dojo Meta Knight 242.63
Seibrik Meta Knight 224.66
DSF Meta Knight 215.75
MikeHAZE Marth 208.56
iStudying Diddy Kong, Ice Climbers 192.62
Ultimate Razer Snake 191.19
Kaos Meta Knight 162.09
Atomsk King Dedede 156.16
DEHF Falco 140.63
Havok Meta Knight, Marth 139.91
Shaya Marth 138.46
Lee Martin Lucario, Meta Knight 136.13
Meep Ice Climbers 135.5
Overswarm Meta Knight 131.06
Gnes Diddy Kong 116.94
Shadow Meta Knight 116.94
Bizkit Snake 112.5
Judge Meta Knight 104.19
Anti Snake, Meta Knight 103.75
Blue Rogue Wario 102.31
Infern Snake 100.69
Kel Meta Knight 94.44
Tibs Diddy Kong 94.43
Anther Pikachu 93.78Well with Falco its a ruleset issue. In Dehf's region is planking banned or not?
As for others you need the data to be repeated more to have conclusive evidence. If Ally is beating M2K about 50% of the time that may indicate an even matchup however the fact that there are no other Snake's are having this success makes that a bit hard to verify. Again I'm not saying that the matchups aren't even just that its very debatable.
Idk if plankings banned in west coast or not, but I know that Ty and Havok don't do it.
Nanaki
Smash Lord
**Puts up Flame Shield**
All I realistically got from M2K:
1. I'm the best at Melee, so I was automatically the best at Brawl.
2. I was the best Dedede, and I picked up MK because he was better (and more fun).
3. I taught every MK everything they ever used or will use because I'm M2K and you cannot challenge my greatness.
4. I've put in a lot of time, and you can't ban my character because I say so.
I can feel the burning coming!
All I realistically got from M2K:
1. I'm the best at Melee, so I was automatically the best at Brawl.
2. I was the best Dedede, and I picked up MK because he was better (and more fun).
3. I taught every MK everything they ever used or will use because I'm M2K and you cannot challenge my greatness.
4. I've put in a lot of time, and you can't ban my character because I say so.
I can feel the burning coming!
Again, 40:60's aren't unwinnable, they never were.
We can all agree though that a character that has 60:40 his advantage as his worst non-mirror matchup is bannable right?
ETWIST51294
Smash Hero
Mango was the best in Melee when Brawl came out. 1=false.
don't know if I'd agree or not but no one good actually thinks MK's worst non-ditto is 60:40 lol
The theoretical lot of Snakes that may or may not be having success at a local matter can't really factor into things. Do you know the overall win/loss ration between razer and Dojo?
And no I don't think MK never loses. But just because he loses doesn't mean that equal matchups exist. People win 60-40 matches.
Like I said, Smashboards is guilty of down-playing ratios in order to hide how unbalanced the game is.
Maybe my 60:40 is your 55:45?
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