Official Metaknight Discussion

[Hylian]

For the sake of not having the forums cluttered with multiple topics on MK I am making one for the public to discuss him in.

Pro-ban, Anti-ban, whatever you want discuss it here.

I'm going to be keeping an eye on all the topics here and closing the ones that derail into metaknight discussion.

Here are links to the two topics before if you want to read up:
Omnis: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263145
Overswarms: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=263082


Personally, I feel like all this discussion is redundant. Everything that's being said for both sides you can probably find in one of the old MK topics. But everyone seems to want to talk about it so here you go.

I will try my best to keep track of this topic and address questions but you might have a better chance just asking on my wall if you need something.

Concerning the SBR stance on this:

Currently there is casual discussion/arguments going on in the SBR about MK. As of now there are no polls concerning his banning, and nothing official going on at all.

AlphaZelot, Marc, and myself(The three people in charge of the SBR-B for those who weren't aware) are discussing the matter privately for now. Once we decide how we want to approach this we will let you know. Any topics from one of us will be official.

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Isnt there a CHARACTER SPECIFIC BOARD for this?

 

[-Mars-]

I would like a top player for either side to address this that i posted in Omni's topic:

I'm not pro-ban or whatever for any reason, but Omni your original post referenced other fighters such as Street Fighter and other franchises as examples of games with character dominance.

While it is common sense that the best character will be winning a large majority of the time....comparing Smash to a game like SF is fundamentally flawed. There are too many factors in this game when considering characters that don't come up in other fighters such as recovery, offstage play, and planking.

The fact that MK wins so much is not what bothers people, the WAY in which he wins is what bothers people.

Traditional fighters are games in which even if your character is overrmatched, the opposing character is still forced to finish you off until the damage meter is gone.....in this game that simply isn't the case which is why comparing the two games is imo silly.

Granted, the fact that this game is played competitively is probably a major issue to begin with, but there are STRONG arguments for the removal of MK eliminating the majority of these issues.

Again, i'm not pro-ban by any stretch of the imagination. I actually would rather fight the plethora of MK's then see an explosion of icies, pikachus, and olimars to **** my character.....but i thought this was poorly done.

To respond to OS' ridiculously bias post, you responded with a similar post. This did nothing but show people two talented players puffing out there chests.

My 2 cents.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Isnt there a CHARACTER SPECIFIC BOARD for this?

This is a topic that affects the entire tournament scene as a whole, not just one character.

Amazing as it sounds, mods actually know what they're doing.

 

[Hylian]

Isnt there a CHARACTER SPECIFIC BOARD for this?

Yes, but this deals with tournaments and people not just metaknight. I would have the discussion there but people would still be making topics here that I would have to close, this makes things easier to keep track of and moderate.

Concerning the SBR stance on this:

Currently there is casual discussion/arguments going on in the SBR about MK. As of now there are no polls concerning his banning, and nothing official going on at all.

AlphaZelot, Marc, and myself(The three people in charge of the SBR-B for those who weren't aware) are discussing the matter privately for now. Once we decide how we want to approach this we will let you know. Any topics from one of us will be official.

 

[Crow!]

A note about the start of the recent insanity:

After Pound4, ADHD made a thread which I guess was intended to be a nail in the coffin for the pro-ban side. He did, after all, beat out a MK filled crowd to win that large tournament, and if anyone was in a position to do such a thing I suppose he was.

Unfortunately, the claim he made was, more or less, if you can't beat MK, it's because you're lazy and haven't bothered to study him enough.

Pro tip: when trying to end an argument, DON'T INSULT THE PEOPLE YOU'RE TRYING TO CONVINCE. Considering that the top6 of Pound4 consisted of ADHD and 5 Metaknights (depending on how you count Ally), the people he accused of either laziness, scrubbiness, or suckiness, was arguably all non-MK smash players in the entire world except himself.

Anyway, this led to a lot of defensiveness, which led to arguments, and opened the flood gates for a lot of tension that has had no real outlet aside from quietly just quitting since the last major MK banning poll.

If this is going to restabilize, I think the SBR does need to make some sort of a statement in the near future. Might I suggest something vague that sounds more pro-ban than it is, like "We encourage wider experimentation with MK banned tournaments" or something.

 

[theunabletable]

Traditional fighters are games in which even if your character is overrmatched, the opposing character is still forced to finish you off until the damage meter is gone.....in this game that simply isn't the case which is why comparing the two games is imo silly.

Correct me if I'm wrong (I may very easily be wrong on this, as my street fighter knowledge isn't very good), but don't they play with a 99 second timer in SF4?

I mean couldn't you run the timer out on someone in SF4?

The fact that MK wins so much is not what bothers people, the WAY in which he wins is what bothers people.

You play a gay game, expect gay wins.

 

[link2702]

This is the one topic that has motivated me enough to post. I've been lurking for a while and I have to say pro-ban arguments are solid. I'm not a pro smasher, but I'm an engineer. In engineering numbers are king. Quantitative observations trump anecdotal evidence. Overswarm has presented data. It shows that Metaknight is dominant. It also shows a trend, Metaknight mains are growing in number. Data also shows that Metaknights are taking more and more of the top spots. It's hard to not call this overcentralized.

Reading Omni's reply on page three shows contradictions. He says that Overswarm has an agenda to distort the metagame the way he wants it to. That Overswarm is appealing with emotional arguments. It's hard to take that argument seriously considering you clearly have a personal dislike for Overswarm, and that you are just trying to protect your main. Omni tries to discredit the data presented, without presenting any numbers to back his own arguments. Simply saying "data is inconclusive" is not a conclusive argument.

Now back to Metaknight. My personal opinion is that a Metaknight ban can only help Brawl. Fact is, tournament attendance is dropping. The status quo is not working. The game is slowly dying. If your hot air balloon is sinking, why not throw the giant elephant overboard. There is a clear disdain for Metaknight, anyone who has read the forums knows that. The Metaknight debate has gone on for over a year; a ban cannot be called a knee jerk reaction.

Now for my bit of contradiction. I will now present some anecdotal evidence to show overcentralization. Ally plays Metaknight now. Pretty much everyone knows this. A year or so ago, everyone believed Ally to be the MK slayer. That he would miraculously halt Metaknights dominance. Now he is one of them. Metaknight is so good that he can even entice the best player of the second best character to switch over. Ally's reasons to switch probably weren't just so he could win with less effort. But imagine if your an average player in the tournament scene and you want to get better, no matter what. That shiny Metaknight over there is gonna start looking awfully enticing. This is happening. More and more players are switching to Metaknight. It's killing diversity and interest in the game. A ban is the only thing that can stop this behaviour.

Now an emotional argument. Could you imagine the tournament landscape if there weren't a flood of Metaknight's. We could actually be talking about other people other than M2K, other Metaknight mains, and the two other players that can actually beat them. We could actually watch matches that grasp our attention, rather than just gritting our teeth, hoping Metaknight doesn't time out his victim again. I don't see Mike Haze, Boss, Chudat or Lain timing out people with their respective mains(If I'm ignorant about this please tell me).

Many players don't play Metaknight because they like him. He's just the necessary evil that they must employ to achieve success. Much like steroids, he gives an advantage, but he is also detrimental to the game. People must realize that a ban isn't a terrible thing. It doesn't mean that the game is horrendous. It just means that there is an aspect of the game that needs correcting.

Those are my thoughts on the issue. I've read 25 pages worth of posts, and this is my take on the issue. Pick it apart. Blast tiny grammar mistakes because you can't find anything else wrong with it. Talk about me being a hypocrite. Argue semantics. Take it for what it's worth...not much. Hell it's my first post, what could I possibly know?

ima quoting this one post just like the other guy did in the other topic, just for anyone that might of missed it in the other/it gets knocked off the list since its been locked already.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Correct me if I'm wrong (I may very easily be wrong on this, as my street fighter knowledge isn't very good), but don't they play with a 99 second timer in SF4?

I mean couldn't you run the timer out on someone in SF4? You play a gay game, expect gay wins.

Eh, you could. But remember-it's a single planar space, meaning it's not really possible to run away (although fireball camping is still valid, and various sorts of approach ****** makes things a little harder)

 

[-Mars-]

Point is in Street Fighter you can force some sort of combat while in Smash you can't which means comparisons to SF are irrelevant.

Read the post, i'm not pro-ban.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Omni seems to be a pretty smart / awesome guy. I hope I'll meet him at Apex 2010

Oh, and MK should obviously not be banned. Why would you ban a character that didn't win Pound4, Genesis, SNES and Apex 09? Those were pretty much the biggest tourneys since CoT4 and MK won not a single one of them. A Diddy and a Snake that can't be stopped by about 20 MKs and you still think he's too good? Silly, pro-banners.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Omni seems to be a pretty smart / awesome guy. I hope I'll meet him at Apex 2010

Oh, and MK should obviously not be banned. Why would you ban a character that didn't win Pound4, Genesis, SNES and Apex 09? Those were pretty much the biggest tourneys since CoT4 and MK won not a single one of them. A Diddy and a Snake that can't be stopped by about 20 MKs and you still think he's too good? Silly, pro-banners.

Eh. Let's remember that these are the best players in the game, period. Of course they're gonna have the upper hand. After Genesis, when Ally won, M2K learned the matchup and went back to beating him more often than not. And it's no secret that almost no MK knows how to deal with Diddy; Dekar himself said that the Diddy Backroom is withholding information on how to fight diddy for a good reason. If MK learns the matchup, Diddy will lose.

 

[Inui]

Gheb is g0d.

Especially in FE 8.

 

[-Ran]

We've tried Brawl up until now with MK legal. Why can't we have a six month temporary ban? Consider the findings, the changes in character trends, and then make a final vote after the summer has passed. There is no reason to approach this with an absolute vote now, but rather let us examine the other side of the equation, together as a community. The chief reason that areas do not ban MK, is because other regions do not. Texas's MK play became worse because Hobo didn't allow for MK to be used except once every few months, which lead to Dojo losing his edge. Other areas saw this, and quickly removed any desire to ban MK. No one wants to be the weakest region or state.

Six months. That's all we'd know to come to a proper vote on the subject. To those that claim that the vote must be absolute from the get go, then they are merely showing their childish nativity to the dynamics of rule creation in games. Sports have competition committees that come together and create regulations to make the game maintain popularity and integrity. Many times, the rules that they make are only on an interim basis to test their validity. I'm personally tired of hearing this constantly, and I feel the only way to resolve it would be to have a temporary ban.

Ask yourself this, do we really want to be discussing the MK Ban for another year, or two?

 

[Pete278]

I think something else that also has to be considered with comparisons to SF is that all SFs beyond the original and the first two or so renditions of SF2 were designed with competitive play in mind, where as Brawl is clearly designed for the more casual market. Thus, its rather hard to judge off of their decisions, since there's rarely a case of a character being completely unviable (sorry Dan and Sean, you don't count), unlike Brawl and Melee, where a number of characters just can't win. Plus, character specific infinites in those games are fairly useless, since they do terrible damage after two loops and are nigh impossible to keep up, which prevents any link to the DDD infinite (for when the thread goes off topic, inevitably )

I also agree with the post above me (Ran if I get ninja'd). You can't definitively judge the effects banning MK would have, or even say 'Brawl with MK is fine' if you don't know the other possibilities. A temporary ban to judge these effects is really in order if the SBR decides to discuss this again, as discussion when only one side of the argument has results and statistics is clearly not going to go anywhere.

 

[Dark.Pch]

These meta threads are dumb as hell and a waste of time. The only reasom I see to banning meta is cause he kinda screws up the counterpicking rule. You can not solidly counterpick meta on stages. And there is stages where he is just out of control like RC. The closet bet to beating meta is a stupid meta ditto.

And one big thing comes to play when people talk and deal with meta. Player emotions. And I'm ****ing emo to no end, so trust me, I know about this ****. Ask yourselfd these questions:

- Does meta annoy the hell out of me?
- Do I know this match up in and out?
- Do I know all I can do to him?
- Do I know my characters limit?
- How do I feel when he spams/planks/ Up-B out of everything?


There is more questions to ask yourself when it comes to this, but I am sure you boys know it. ADHD has beaten meta. But then again, how well do these players know diddy vs meta?only one I can think of is M2K, and he goes about even with ADHD from the record I am seeing. The next one would Be DEHF beating all these metas with Falco. A character that gets his *** handed to him when he is out the stage. So imagine meta out there with Falco.

What would be the excuse for these 2 things. is it the fact that they don't know the match up? or they get annoyed? This is a main reason people play gay, plank, w/e. To piss you off. You can't play correctly or on point pissed. I't more of a mental mind **** than a game play strat to win. I even seen this from M2k in both melee and brawl to a point he just quits. And take into account he uses the best character (Brawl) characters (Melee) in the game.

And since meta is the best in the game, you spamm and do all this crap, human emotion will kick in, and you can't play straight. And people don't wanna believe this. This is why people who are not even that skilled with meta get away with alot of stuff against players who are better. Good luck getting people to admit that.

Meta is a broken character that just gets away with alot of crap. But is the problem really meta? or is it you people letting him get to you? Just seeing someone pick meta on the screen can piss someone off. You lost the match before it started. And after 2 years or this broken game, people are just losing their patients more. and lose to stupid ****. Thus everyone out thier mom plays meta cause it is just that easy. They are not really beating your character, they are beating you. I have yet to ***** about meta knight and I play freaking Peach. I have *****ed about characters below meta. Some not even A tier material and Meta is the best in this game.

The gay and stupid **** he does in that match up makes no sense and in a way, unfair. Yet I deal with it. And still look for ways to deal with it. And now that I am focusing on frame detail and hit boxes. etc. Meta is looking less harder for me. usually Peach has a hard time edguarding him. But doing my homework and a lil math, I'm finding good ways to edgeguard him. I already took care of his up-B nonsense. Now I am working on his air attacks. Since that is where he starts most of his BS.

*****ing about meta or making these threads are not gonna do anything. And I seriously think emotions play a big role in this saga of meta taking over to a point he has to go. The only reason I see him leaving is cause he screws up te counterpicking rule. Also the fact that he makes alot of characters unplayable cause of the BS he does. Some might say he breaks the game.

Ether way these threads are stupid and get nothing done. Just bias crap from meta players and the other side fighting against it to why he has to go. 2 years of this nonsense. When are people gonna take a hint? 365 more days?

 

[Ledge_g2]

We've tried Brawl up until now with MK legal. Why can't we have a six month temporary ban? Consider the findings, the changes in character trends, and then make a final vote after the summer has passed. There is no reason to approach this with an absolute vote now, but rather let us examine the other side of the equation, together as a community. The chief reason that areas do not ban MK, is because other regions do not. Texas's MK play became worse because Hobo didn't allow for MK to be used except once every few months, which lead to Dojo losing his edge. Other areas saw this, and quickly removed any desire to ban MK. No one wants to be the weakest region or state.

Six months. That's all we'd know to come to a proper vote on the subject. To those that claim that the vote must be absolute from the get go, then they are merely showing their childish nativity to the dynamics of rule creation in games. Sports have competition committees that come together and create regulations to make the game maintain popularity and integrity. Many times, the rules that they make are only on an interim basis to test their validity. I'm personally tired of hearing this constantly, and I feel the only way to resolve it would be to have a temporary ban.

Ask yourself this, do we really want to be discussing the MK Ban for another year, or two?

I think this is a smart and fair way to do it. Theres no reason not too.

 

[*Tyson*]

M2K actually sucks at the Diddy match up, Learn it and MK wins the match up

 

[~ Gheb ~]

"Learn it [the Diddy vs MK match-up] and MK wins."

What are these statements based upon? Apparently every MK always plays the match-up wrong, If so many people know that there is a "right" way for MK to play why don't MK just play that way and actually win that match-up?

Something doesn't add up in your theorcraft BS.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Try asking a diddy main. I've heard it often-"there's only 2 people who aren't diddies and know how to fight diddy" (from Swordgard), "We aren't letting anyone give away the secrets to the diddy matchup" (Dekar), etc.

 

[swordgard]

Try asking a diddy main. I've heard it often-"there's only 2 people who aren't diddies and know how to fight diddy" (from Swordgard), "We aren't letting anyone give away the secrets to the diddy matchup" (Dekar), etc.

WTF when did I say that O.o You sir are completely strawmanning me.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

O.o

Really? I thought you said that in the Diddy thread. I'm gonna go look again; maybe it was someone else. I'm sure someone reliable said it though.

EDIT: Also, that's not a strawman, lol. :V

 

[Nanaki]

...bunch of irrelevant stuff

Meta is a broken character that just gets away with alot of crap. But is the problem really meta? or is it you people letting him get to you? Just seeing someone pick meta on the screen can piss someone off. You lost the match before it started.

...stuff about Peach...

Pretty sure those 2 things are enormously important ban criteria.

WTF when did I say that O.o You sir are completely strawmanning me.

I think you mean 'scapegoat' not 'strawman'.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

O.o

Really? I thought you said that in the Diddy thread. I'm gonna go look again; maybe it was someone else. I'm sure someone reliable said it though.

EDIT: Also, that's not a strawman, lol. :V

If your going to quote someone use an actual post they typed, not your own words...

These meta threads are dumb as hell and a waste of time. The only reasom I see to banning meta is cause he kinda screws up the counterpicking rule. You can not solidly counterpick meta on stages. And there is stages where he is just out of control like RC. The closet bet to beating meta is a stupid meta ditto.

And one big thing comes to play when people talk and deal with meta. Player emotions. And I'm ****ing emo to no end, so trust me, I know about this ****. Ask yourselfd these questions:

- Does meta annoy the hell out of me?
- Do I know this match up in and out?
- Do I know all I can do to him?
- Do I know my characters limit?
- How do I feel when he spams/planks/ Up-B out of everything?


There is more questions to ask yourself when it comes to this, but I am sure you boys know it. ADHD has beaten meta. But then again, how well do these players know diddy vs meta?only one I can think of is M2K, and he goes about even with ADHD from the record I am seeing. The next one would Be DEHF beating all these metas with Falco. A character that gets his *** handed to him when he is out the stage. So imagine meta out there with Falco.

What would be the excuse for these 2 things. is it the fact that they don't know the match up? or they get annoyed? This is a main reason people play gay, plank, w/e. To piss you off. You can't play correctly or on point pissed. I't more of a mental mind **** than a game play strat to win. I even seen this from M2k in both melee and brawl to a point he just quits. And take into account he uses the best character (Brawl) characters (Melee) in the game.

And since meta is the best in the game, you spamm and do all this crap, human emotion will kick in, and you can't play straight. And people don't wanna believe this. This is why people who are not even that skilled with meta get away with alot of stuff against players who are better. Good luck getting people to admit that.

Meta is a broken character that just gets away with alot of crap. But is the problem really meta? or is it you people letting him get to you? Just seeing someone pick meta on the screen can piss someone off. You lost the match before it started. And after 2 years or this broken game, people are just losing their patients more. and lose to stupid ****. Thus everyone out thier mom plays meta cause it is just that easy. They are not really beating your character, they are beating you. I have yet to ***** about meta knight and I play freaking Peach. I have *****ed about characters below meta. Some not even A tier material and Meta is the best in this game.

The gay and stupid **** he does in that match up makes no sense and in a way, unfair. Yet I deal with it. And still look for ways to deal with it. And now that I am focusing on frame detail and hit boxes. etc. Meta is looking less harder for me. usually Peach has a hard time edguarding him. But doing my homework and a lil math, I'm finding good ways to edgeguard him. I already took care of his up-B nonsense. Now I am working on his air attacks. Since that is where he starts most of his BS.

*****ing about meta or making these threads are not gonna do anything. And I seriously think emotions play a big role in this saga of meta taking over to a point he has to go. The only reason I see him leaving is cause he screws up te counterpicking rule. Also the fact that he makes alot of characters unplayable cause of the BS he does. Some might say he breaks the game.

Ether way these threads are stupid and get nothing done. Just bias crap from meta players and the other side fighting against it to why he has to go. 2 years of this nonsense. When are people gonna take a hint? 365 more days?

Alot of what your complaining about is the play to win strategy idea most take up. Im afraid thats something you cant really ban since its a players decision to really want to win the tournament. And part of being a good player is being able to break through metas arsenal of gay and defeat him. That task can be made harder or easier depending on the tools you are given to work with, with whatever character your on.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

If your going to quote someone use an actual post they typed, not your own words...

My bad.

I was wrong swordgard, my apologies.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9356137&postcount=10

(It's the purple names >.>)

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=9415370&postcount=186

That one took me way too long to find; why I paraphrased in the first place.

 

[Black Marf]

Pretty sure those 2 things are enormously important ban criteria.

When he said "you lost the match before it started", it had nothing to do with the fact that they were playing the best character in the game (MK). He's referring to how people lose their cool, and start thinking negatively. Once you start thinking negatively (I can't win this, I'm going to lose), you already lost.

Reading comprehension.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

When he said "you lost the match before it started", it had nothing to do with the fact that they were playing the best character in the game (MK). He's referring to how people lose their cool, and start thinking negatively. Once you start thinking negatively (I can't win this, I'm going to lose), you already lost.

Reading comprehension.

^^^ This is also a pretty important thing i believe people have a tendency to over look. Keeping your cool during a match against a loving bat is not for the weak of heart. A defeatist attitude towards any MK in general can land you in no win situations in the match.

ex; "oh man another mk..sigh this wont go well"
"oh well i might as well give up now im off stage and here he comes ready to SL me"
"oh woe is me he has the % stock lead i'll never catch up"


Why not go into the match thinking, "oh hey another bat! lets go sit on it to see if its just as squishy as the last bat i slew?"

 

[Nanaki]

When he said "you lost the match before you started", it had nothing to do with the fact that they were playing Metaknight. He's referring to how people lose their cool, and start thinking negatively. Once you start thinking negatively (I can't win this, I'm going to lose), you already lost.

Reading comprehension.

If the character illicits the response, is it the character's fault, or the player's fault?

The entire point is moot anyway, everything in that post was a load of garbage. I find it absurdly unlikely that the thousands of people who play this game all **** themselves with fear when their opponent picks MK. Response incoming anyway:

I was merely pointing out the irony of the 'stop whining, don't ban' stance while simultaneously stating that the character is broken, and you've lost the match as soon as your opponont picks MK (for whatever reason, be it psychological or otherwise - does it really make a difference? If the character is so absurdly good that you FEEL like you've already lost, and this happens at TOP TOURNAMENTS with the BEST PLAYERS IN THE WORLD on a CONSISTENT BASIS, how the hell does that make the 'you've already lost' argument any less valid?).

 

[Kuraudo]

^^^ This is also a pretty important thing i believe people have a tendency to over look. Keeping your cool during a match against a loving bat is not for the weak of heart. A defeatist attitude towards any MK in general can land you in no win situations in the match.

ex; "oh man another mk..sigh this wont go well"
"oh well i might as well give up now im off stage and here he comes ready to SL me"
"oh woe is me he has the % stock lead i'll never catch up"


Why not go into the match thinking, "oh hey another bat! lets go sit on it to see if its just as squishy as the last bat i slew?"

I prefer to punch bats in the face.

 

[Black Marf]

If the character illicits the response, is it the character's fault, or the player's fault?

It's the player's fault in this case. You're expected to keep a level head in competition, and failing to do so is your fault. In fact, it's even advantageous for the opponent to purposely piss you off.

Whether or not MK should be banned is a completely separate argument from how defeated choosing MK makes the other player feel. By extension, rules should not be based around the fact that a player can't stand facing the best character in the game.

 

[UltiMario]

Brawl is a horridly unbalanced game. There is one thing that is constant though, there are some characters that can't win a match-up, and then ones like MK with no truely terrible match-ups....

Then there are characters, like Marth, that really only has 1 problem: The extremely common Meta Knight.

You're not going to get rid of the problems by banning Meta Knight, you're just going to proclaim a new King that skyrockets past the #2 spot by uncountably high wins. It doesn't matter if it is Snake, Marth, or even Peach. Its still going to happen.

Also, none of us consider the DRAWBACKS of banning MK other than less tourney participation from big anti-banners and the MKs that need to get a new Main. Has anyone ever actually examined character match-ups and try to predict what tourney results would look like with MK gone?

Edit:

It's the player's fault in this case. You're expected to keep a level head in competition, and failing to do so is your fault. In fact, it's even advantageous for the opponent to purposely piss you off.

Whether or not MK should be banned is a completely separate argument from how defeated choosing MK makes the other player feel. By extension, rules should not be based around the fact that a player can't stand facing the best character in the game.

I like how this guy thinks.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

I prefer to punch bats in the face.

if it were sonic, i would prefer to simply put, "its time to go bat, your only at 186%"

If the character illicits the response, is it the character's fault, or the player's fault?

Hard to say. Depends on the situation, the players reaction time and probably move priority[lol bats]

 

[Kuraudo]

if it were sonic, i would prefer to simply put, "its time to go bat, your only at 186%"



Hard to say. Depends on the situation, the players reaction time and probably move priority[lol bats]

ohhhhh, SNAP.

 

[Nanaki]

It's the player's fault in this case. You're expected to keep a level head in competition, and failing to do so is your fault. In fact, it's even advantageous for the opponent to purposely piss you off.

Whether or not MK should be banned is a completely separate argument from how defeated choosing MK makes the other player feel. By extension, rules should not be based around the fact that a player can't stand facing the best character in the game.

Responding to one line in a person's post is awesome. Did I say anywhere, or even infer, that MK should be banned because of this psychobabble bull****?

**Disclaimer**: The following paragraph is totally irrelevant. I'm only following the weird little trail of 'logic' that we've somehow started down. Refer to the last paragraph of this post for the real point I'm trying to make.
The most ridiculous part of this whole 'argument' (if you can call it that, it's mostly just tooting our own horns), is that you make it sound like the person who chose MK pulled some super aggravating maneuver to piss off his opponent. It's not like the person is pulling out Sonic, sending you flying, and spamming 'You're too slow!!!' to piss you off (or a Kirby 'HAAAIII!!' or whatever - pick your poison). He picked a character. If picking a character makes smashers all over the world go into conniption fits (and that's the whole crux of this 'argument' - that it happens to ALL people, tournament level or not, who fight MK's), then something is likely wrong with the character.
**END DISCLAIMER**

Again, none of this matters, because none of it is true. People don't gain some ridiculous psychological edge by picking MK. Tournament-going smashers don't crap in their pants because people pick MK. When you go to a tournament, you KNOW you're going to go up against a slew of MK's. You're ready for it. Honestly, I'd probably be more psychologically affected if I went to a tournament and fought a huge variety of characters - I wouldn't know how to handle it.

Edit: Removed a quote I ended up not responding to.

 

[solecalibur]

Also, none of us consider the DRAWBACKS of banning MK other than less tourney participation from big anti-banners and the MKs that need to get a new Main. Has anyone ever actually examined character match-ups and try to predict what tourney results would look like with MK gone?

We've been doing this, most of those post get ignored, it would be like melee triangle with some bad MU's and some good MU's and also with flowers lots of those....

 

[Kewkky]

The moment a mod locks up all the other topics, then open up a new one and say "gather here to keep debating", is the moment the MK debate dies.



How anti-climactic. :freak:

 

[Kuraudo]

It's disappointing, really.

But it's still early enough in the day. Guaranteed that things will pick up, somehow. And if they happened? Well that just means the SBR is discussing matters.

...

I hope.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

We've tried Brawl up until now with MK legal. Why can't we have a six month temporary ban? Consider the findings, the changes in character trends, and then make a final vote after the summer has passed. There is no reason to approach this with an absolute vote now, but rather let us examine the other side of the equation, together as a community. The chief reason that areas do not ban MK, is because other regions do not. Texas's MK play became worse because Hobo didn't allow for MK to be used except once every few months, which lead to Dojo losing his edge. Other areas saw this, and quickly removed any desire to ban MK. No one wants to be the weakest region or state.

Six months. That's all we'd know to come to a proper vote on the subject. To those that claim that the vote must be absolute from the get go, then they are merely showing their childish nativity to the dynamics of rule creation in games. Sports have competition committees that come together and create regulations to make the game maintain popularity and integrity. Many times, the rules that they make are only on an interim basis to test their validity. I'm personally tired of hearing this constantly, and I feel the only way to resolve it would be to have a temporary ban.

Ask yourself this, do we really want to be discussing the MK Ban for another year, or two?

Thank you. Nothing wrong w/ this. If you suddenly suck against MK after 6 months that's your fault 'cause he wouldn't be banned ftom joke/friendly matches.

 

[Overswarm]

The moment a mod locks up all the other topics, then open up a new one and say "gather here to keep debating", is the moment the MK debate dies.



How anti-climactic. :freak:

How about you wait for me to finish my post?


Also, Hylian is a joy killer.

 

[Master Raven]

Is there actual evidence that tournament attendance is dropping due to MK?