• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Official Metaknight Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.
Joined
Oct 9, 2008
Messages
8,905
Location
Vinyl Scratch's Party Bungalo
NNID
Budget_Player
Depends on who you are asking, which is the fundamental problem with this debate.

I for example believe that the community will be more healthy if MK is banned.
Another big important point. It is also my belief that while banning MK will cause part of the community to break away (a lot of MK mains, mostly), it will lead to the game lasting longer due to less people bailing out due to being sick of that flying rat.
 

ShadowLink84

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 12, 2005
Messages
9,007
Location
Middle of nowhere. Myrtle Beach
I would have to disagree with the idea that banning MK WILL make this game more diverse/overcentralized/more fun.
Primarily because MK,while strong, is only there because he beats the characters who beat everyone else anyway.

I do think that MK's legality when determined, should be done for the best interest in the community.
Certainly we will lose people because they would not agree with MK being banned or remaining legal, but it should be done in a manner that ensures that the community wont try to rip itself in half.
 

Chuee

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
6,002
Location
Kentucky
Another big important point. It is also my belief that while banning MK will cause part of the community to break away (a lot of MK mains, mostly), it will lead to the game lasting longer due to less people bailing out due to being sick of that flying rat.
Nobody quits the ****ing game because of mk.
 

fkacyan

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 15, 2008
Messages
6,226
My goal is to eliminate planking and scrooging with as few surgical rules as possible.

Also I've mentioned this before but nationals aren't more significant than other large tournaments.
Sure they are.
More money = people playing better / gayer = more accurate results
More people = more diverse pool of people and character styles = more accurate results

Tourneys in and of themselves are exercises in statistical accuracy. Hence seeding, double elim, pools, etc. The larger the data pool, the more accurate, and thus the more significant, the data is.
 

Judo777

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
3,627
I would have to disagree with the idea that banning MK WILL make this game more diverse/overcentralized/more fun.
Primarily because MK,while strong, is only there because he beats the characters who beat everyone else anyway.

I do think that MK's legality when determined, should be done for the best interest in the community.
Certainly we will lose people because they would not agree with MK being banned or remaining legal, but it should be done in a manner that ensures that the community wont try to rip itself in half.
I'd just like to throw this out there but with MK gone, every character in the game will have at least two unfavorable matchups that are like at least 4/6. Not to mention with MK gone you will see more characters like peach, luigi and rob who all have advantageous or even matchups with characters that can be hard to find counters to.
 

Chuee

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
6,002
Location
Kentucky
But those who quit Brawl (not necessarily for Melee) are pro-ban. I have friends at my skill level to prove this.
Not all of them are. I know people that quit the game just because they don't like it. They're anti-ban.

EDIT: Judo, no. Snake doesn't have any MUs 60-40 right know. Diddy MIGHT have 1 or 2, but those are debatable.
 

GunmasterLombardi

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
2,493
Location
My ego...It's OVER 9000!
Not all of them are. I know people that quit the game just because they don't like it. They're anti-ban.

EDIT: Judo, no. Snake doesn't have any MUs 60-40 right know. Diddy MIGHT have 1 or 2, but those are debatable.
Falco has 60:40 on Diddy.

Not even liking/playing the game and being anti-ban is unacceptable. That means they know MK has the potential to cripple the metagame and they want Brawl to die, or, they're m2k who doesn't want their easiest way to makin' dat money gone.
 
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
4
Nobody quits the ****ing game because of mk.
**** YOU ARE SOOO STUPID!

Say hello to blanket statements...

Extremely false blanket statements...
I lol'd.


10cars
Not nearly enough to actually make the game die.
Wow I'm tired of your *** dumbo.

These ^ QFT



You're wrong stop, don't change your agruement.

Lol
But those who quit Brawl (not necessarily for Melee) are pro-ban. I have friends at my skill level to prove this.
Not all of them are. I know people that quit the game just because they don't like it. They're anti-ban.

EDIT: Judo, no. Snake doesn't have any MUs 60-40 right know. Diddy MIGHT have 1 or 2, but those are debatable.
I quoted you and and the people that SHOULD have made you shut up but you are just too **** stupid to shut up *******. I've been lurking these boards for a while now and I can't stand your *** whenever I see your name. I used to have respect for you but then I noticed something...........but **** ***** you seem to get slower, slower, and slower, and if you can't understand what I'm saying cause you can't seem to get when people tell your *** you are wrong and have proved you wrong. YOU ARE STUPID. Plain as that my *****, I made this account personally for you and now I'm probably gonna get banned for it, but whateva I'll just go back to what I was doing....lurking and NOT SOUNDING LIKE A ******* LIKE YOU!
 

GunmasterLombardi

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 4, 2009
Messages
2,493
Location
My ego...It's OVER 9000!
**** YOU ARE SOOO STUPID!







Wow I'm tired of your *** dumbo.







I quoted you and and the people that SHOULD have made you shut up but you are just too **** stupid to shut up *******. I've been lurking these boards for a while now and I can't stand your *** whenever I see your name. I used to have respect for you but then I noticed something...........but **** ***** you seem to get slower, slower, and slower, and if you can't understand what I'm saying cause you can't seem to get when people tell your *** you are wrong and have proved you wrong. YOU ARE STUPID. Plain as that my *****, I made this account personally for you and now I'm probably gonna get banned for it, but whateva I'll just go back to what I was doing....lurking and NOT SOUNDING LIKE A ******* LIKE YOU!
...:laugh:

...:urg:

Ouch, he's right but this was uncalled for.

If the majority of us agree for a temporary ban then it's more stupid we have failed to get anywhere for months.
 

Judo777

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
3,627
Not all of them are. I know people that quit the game just because they don't like it. They're anti-ban.

EDIT: Judo, no. Snake doesn't have any MUs 60-40 right know. Diddy MIGHT have 1 or 2, but those are debatable.
Snake has a 4/6 matchup with olimar and D3. D3 definitely isnt even unless u feel like telling ally that CO18 is just better than he is.

Diddy has 4/6 matchups with falco and luigi and has 45/55 matchups with wario and peach and goes even with jiggs lol.
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
Just ignore his posts. One of the forum's mods will probably get here and delete all of these last few posts...
 

demonictoonlink

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 25, 2008
Messages
3,113
Location
Colorado
Some much ignorance in this discussion right now...

Snake DOES NOT have two 60-40's against him. Neither Olimar not D3 are considered 60-40...Where are you getting this? Your own personal thoughts?
 

Luigi player

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 29, 2004
Messages
4,106
Location
Austria
Snake has a 4/6 matchup with olimar and D3. D3 definitely isnt even unless u feel like telling ally that CO18 is just better than he is.

Diddy has 4/6 matchups with falco and luigi and has 45/55 matchups with wario and peach and goes even with jiggs lol.
Diddy goes even with Falco, Luigi, Wario and beats Peach and Jiggs. Maybe he even beats the other three (55:45)...
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,664
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Long post warning. The three bolded posts are my concerns.

How much dominance is too much?

This has been brought up before and quickly dismissed, but it's a serious question. The pro-ban argument has shown a lot of information that Meta Knight is dominating; this is something that shouldn't come as a surprise. However, we don't know if the dominance is banworthy because we don't know how much dominance is too much. The cutoff would be different from person to person, so the information shown could be overdomination to some and perfectly fine to others

Any dominance cutoffs created by this point would be biased — that much is obvious.

What happens after Meta Knight is banned?

Again, this is another point that's been brought up. We only know a few things for certain:

1)An MK ban will force a large chunk of the Brawl community to change their mains for MK banned events.
2)An MK ban (should) bring in more varied tournament results.

The former is the only thing we really know for sure. There's no true proof of the latter happening, but it's hard to argue against with the character rankings and match-ups presented. What happens past then — increased tournament attendance, a split in the community, past MK mains remaining top pros, new players coming, Brawl lasting longer, etc — is all speculation. We have no way of knowing what will actually happen, but there are definitely many concerns about what would happen to the community.

Suppose you take a region, like Atlantic North, that has a good amount of MK mains, and it's after the MK ban. Would all of the TOs follow through with the ban? Suppose they all or mostly don't, and within Atlantic North the competitive scene remains as it usually has been. What happens if they try to host a national, or MK players want to compete in a national out of region? They probably won't be able to well because of the MK-banned vs. MK-legal tournament attendee discord. Suppose some TOs follow the ban and others keep MK legal. What happens to attendance within region with all of the MK mains? Will they only go to MK allowed tournaments? Will non-MK mains go to those same tournaments, or will they keep to the MK banned ones? Will they just switch mains? Suppose most or all TOs follow the ban. What happens to the large chunk of MK mains in the region? There probably won't be enough people that quit because of MK and are waiting to come back to fill in their shoes, so does the region just suffer if all the MK mains decide to quit? Or do they just switch mains?

There are too many questions that we can't answer because we don't know for sure what will happen with an MK ban. The game could turn out better or worse, but we don't know.

(One thing that an MK ban will not do, however, is magically increase tournament attendees. While some increase may happen over time, a bunch of new players won't join the competitive scene simply because MK is banned. Attendance is somewhat different only in the sense that if a region is literally turning into MK dittos and people are quitting in the region because of that, then an MK ban would increase the attendance. It won't bring in new players or tournament goers. That's more of the issue of the tournament itself. I'll expand on this later.)

A possible solution for the “We don't know anything!” dilemna is a temp ban. Banning MK for a time period like 6 months could provide the evidence we need to make a final verdict. However, I'm very wary about a temp ban because we don't know for sure if the evidence and results we find would show what we'd get with a permanent ban. It's all up to what the TOs and players do; if there's a split with MK-banned and MK-legal tournaments, we won't get very accurate results. If certain players just stop playing, or only go to MK-legal tournaments, etc., it's the same result.

Is Meta Knight a real problem in the Brawl community right now?

Think about this question for a second before you instantly say “yes.” This question is ignoring the theorycraft, the ban criteria concerns, the LGL rule specifics, all of that stuff — looking at the real picture of actual tournaments, is Meta Knight a real problem?

MK ban threads usually only come around the time of a national. CoT4, Genesis, SNES, Pound 4, etc, and there's usually not much commotion about the MK ban until then. When the thread comes up and we see tournament results, everybody goes frantic. Why? The results of nationals shouldn't be surprising; top players get top spots, a lot of top players main Meta Knight, Meta Knight gets a lot of top spots.

People like to throw around blanket statements of how much MK is destroying the community, how MK is overcentralizing the metagame, how MK is decreasing tournament attendance — I even heard that the game wouldn't last until 2010 (which is obviously false). However, what MK actually does to the community seems to be quite region specific. For example, I heard that New Mexico (from Dekar), GtaN (from Swordgard), and Puerto Rico (from Kewkky) have all had MK problems or overcentralization to the point where they had to ban the character. He would consistently be taking 6-7 out of the top 8, and people have stopped going to tournaments because of him in the regions. In that case, a ban is completely understandable.

What about everywhere else?

What about places like Atlantic North, where a lot of people main MK but a lot of people are fine with it, and a ban of MK would cut a large chunk of the playerbase? What about places like Eastern Midwest, where MK exists but isn't really dominating? In most places, sure MK has the top results since he's the best character in the game, but he's not a real problem. People have mentioned the slow decline of tournament attendance and have correlated it with the slow increase of MK's results. Honest question: Do you think a ban of MK will boost tournament attnedance in your region?

If you answered yes, stop and think for a bit. I said before in a parenthetical remark that a MK ban wouldn't bring any more new attendees, and except for special cases such as New Mexico, GtaN, and Puerto Rico, his ban wouldn't really bring much more tournament attendance. Certain regions have been having trouble with attendance recently, and more likely than not it isn't because of MK dominance that attendance is declining, but of tournaments themselves.

The MD/VA tournament scene was struggling a few months ago (not sure if it's the same now) mainly because of how tournaments were run. They usually had $10 venue fees, not great venues, top 3 payouts, and sometimes no pools. This is horrible for anybody who isn't around top 5-10 in the region, and it's especially horrible for the worse players. Imagine being new to the competitive scene (AKA probably not good), driving a good distance to go to a tournament, shelling out $30 for entry+gas+food, having the tournament go slowly because of the lack of set-ups, and when it's all said and done you only play two matches because of the lack of pools. That's not even worst case scenario — that happens in quite a lot of tournaments (I'm not taking a stab at MD/VA by the way, this is just in general). They're set up and run badly, and as a result the lower end of the player spectrum has a bad experience and no motivation to go to future tournaments. They don't see much hope of getting better, and it just isn't fun for them. This leads to tournament attendance decline. Things like losing to a planking Meta Knight may contribute a small bit to this, but it's hardly the main reason why attendance is lacking.

Now let's take a look at Ohio. Ohio's tournaments are amazingly well run, and as a result they have a huge and very competitive scene. If you have the time, I'd advise you to read this thread (it's the chat between AlphaZealot and Takeover, and AZ gives great advice on how to run a tournament. How his tournaments are run are pretty much how most of Ohio's tournaments are run).

Anyway, I've heard from pretty much all sources, from AIM, on SWF, and in person, that Ohio tournaments are just fun experiences. TOs and helpers such as AZ, Nope, Keist, and OS all do the suggested things for smooth and fun tournaments, so it caters really well to everyone. They have cheap entry fees, tournaments that run on time, pools, and tournaments in each region: Springfield, Cincinnati, Columbus, NEOH. The result is a large amount of good players all competing for the Ohio Power Rankings.

I don't know from experience, but I heard that SoCal was in a slump similar to MD/VA, but Champ with 2GoodGaming has stepped it up with tournaments and helped boost the scene there.

Overall, what I'm trying to say is that region's tournament success or tournament troubles doesn't seem to have anything to do with MK. All of those regions have their share of MK mains, good and bad. Their existence doesn't have an effect on the tournament scenes.

Those are my three viewpoints on those questions. I feel that MK's dominance is region specific and we can't put a broad blanket over how MK performs in the world. I feel that we can't know what will happen afterwards if a ban was instituted, and there's no evidence to suggest the ban will improve the community. I feel that MK isn't even a problem in the community right now, and while we can argue over specifics about him on SWF, he doesn't have actual impact on a region's tournament attendance — other factors do and we should be addressing those. Because of all this, I'm anti-ban.

I know for a fact I left something major out I wanted to say. I also lost focus towards the end of this and rambled on some points. This is much wordier than I hoped. Hopefully anyone who wants to say anything about my points won't nitpick at small things and will get the big picture of what I'm saying, but hopefully people aren't strictly arguing against my points anyway; it's exactly what we shouldn't be doing. We've been having redundant arguments over the MK ban since fall of 2008, and we haven't accomplished much or anything since then.
 

Kewkky

Uhh... Look at my status.
Premium
Joined
Apr 20, 2008
Messages
8,019
Location
San Diego, CA
Switch FC
SW-7001-5337-8820
I was reading, but had to stop here for a sec:

For example, I heard that New Mexico (from Dekar), GtaN (from Swordgard), and Puerto Rico (from Kewkky) have all had MK problems or overcentralization to the point where they had to ban the character.
I didn't say we banned MK. I said we soft-banned MK. Like, if anyone would use it, we wouldn't recognize their wins and troll them until they stopped using MK... But they could use MK if they wanted to, it's not and has never been against our rules. :ohwell:
 

Judo777

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
3,627
Some much ignorance in this discussion right now...

Snake DOES NOT have two 60-40's against him. Neither Olimar not D3 are considered 60-40...Where are you getting this? Your own personal thoughts?
Ok well according to both boards were right except i didnt look up the falco one. However diddy has like 6 45/55 MUs whih is just as good.

Snake on the other hand may only have 2 45/55 matchups against like olimar and D3 but they also have several even matchups with character like pikachu and rob as well. Also a few lower tier characters come close to even with snake like sheik. Also wario is supposed to have a slight advantage on snake but thats debateable.

Mk on the other hand has no unfavorable matchups and very few even....
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
2,136
1)An MK ban will force a large chunk of the Brawl community to change their mains for MK banned events.
So what you're saying is we should have just banned MK back when the first big ban MK thread was created, and it wouldn't be nearly the same percent losing their mains as would now.
 

AvaricePanda

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,664
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
So what you're saying is we should have just banned MK back when the first big ban MK thread was created, and it wouldn't be nearly the same percent losing their mains as would now.
Yeah dude that's exactly what I'm saying, yo, keep straw manning and avoiding the entire point of my post, your contributions are mad helpful.
 

ElDominio

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
452
I was reading, but had to stop here for a sec:


I didn't say we banned MK. I said we soft-banned MK. Like, if anyone would use it, we wouldn't recognize their wins and troll them until they stopped using MK... But they could use MK if they wanted to, it's not and has never been against our rules. :ohwell:
QFT
People here don't play MK because..... er.... we are instilled with a hatred on him. Only now has MK started to spring up again in tourney standings :S
 

Orion*

Smash Researcher
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
4,503
Location
Dexters Laboratory
However diddy has like 6 45/55 MUs whih is just as good.
no. it isnt just as good.

also have several even matchups with character like pikachu and rob as well. Also a few lower tier characters come close to even with snake like sheik. Also wario is supposed to have a slight advantage on snake but thats debateable.
snake Clearly beats rob and pikachu. shiek shouldnt be low tier, but i wont go into that, snake wins in a 6:4ish manner. you can argue the same thing with yoshi or sonic doing quite well vs metaknight.

wario is very debatable, i will agree that.
 

etecoon

Smash Hero
Joined
May 31, 2009
Messages
5,731
I think snake vs pika is pretty even, but yea snake definitely beats ROB probably like 6:4, snake in general doesn't have bad matchups except DDD and MAYBE olimar but I don't have the experience to make a call on oli and other snake players seem divided on it
 

Judo777

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 9, 2008
Messages
3,627
no. it isnt just as good.



snake Clearly beats rob and pikachu. shiek shouldnt be low tier, but i wont go into that, snake wins in a 6:4ish manner. you can argue the same thing with yoshi or sonic doing quite well vs metaknight.

wario is very debatable, i will agree that.
Dont misunderstan what i said i was saying having 6 45/55 matchups is about as good as having 2 4/6 mathups. because while the matchups maybe not be as hard for diddy its a little against him and hes gotta learn 6 matchups instead of just learnning the 2.

and no snake doesnt beat sheik 6/4 is 55/45 and pika or rob is dangerously close to even. The boards actually say its their favor (one of em that is) but that might not be right. Just like how everyone thinks MK is only 6/4 against like the whole game top tier exclued.

Also u have to take into account that matchups can also be swayed easier with stage picks because omg snake diddy and marth actually have bad stages. Unlike MK where it doesnt matter where u freaking take him.
 

Chuee

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 20, 2008
Messages
6,002
Location
Kentucky
Falco has 60:40 on Diddy.

Not even liking/playing the game and being anti-ban is unacceptable. That means they know MK has the potential to cripple the metagame and they want Brawl to die, or, they're m2k who doesn't want their easiest way to makin' dat money gone.
Falco has a 6-4 on Diddy? Maybe i'd accept that if both boards agreed to it, don't think Diddy mains have that.
Just because you quit the game doesn't mean you have to hate MK's guts. I know one guy who "supposedly" quit just because he got bored of the game. He's anti-ban. There's a lot of people that quit simply because they don't like the slow, campy nature of the game. Not just MK, but many other characters.

@Judo:
First off, Snake vs both of those is 55-45 arguably 50-50. Nobody EVER agreed to those.
Lets see, no Diddy does not have 6 55-45's ._.
Snake beats Sheik, ROB, & goes even maybe slight adv. with Pika. And from what I've heard he beats Wario too.

Also Dajayman/whoever else that dumb*** troll could be.
Fail troll is fail.
Good day.

EDIT: Judo, it actually matters where you take mk.
FD is a bad MK stage.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom