SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

MythTrainerInfinity · Jun 4, 2010

If you don't get killed by her Side B (I still don't know which why to DI this lol) her FAir and BAir will kill you around 130%ish.

ZSS really really ***** on BF.

ZSS also seems to have a lot of trouble landing around Lucario.

Does ZSS' down B have invincibility frames?

Kitamerby · Jun 4, 2010

ZSS' Flip Jump is known for having a ton of invincibility frames, including frame 1. She can also footstool during it to recover.

Tony T · Jun 4, 2010

Here are the invinicibility frames that I know of.
Invincibility frames: Warios F-smash, DK's neutral B and up-B, Ike's Up-B and neutral B (only by contact) olimars down-B (hyper armor), Wolfs down B (hyper armor) (one frame) Charizards up-B, Sonic's Up-B, yoshis 2nd jump, Bowsers up-B on the ground idk for sure about that and zss down-B, snakes up-b only has a super armor to atks with less than 10% damage so only atks like b-air or a projectile atk with knockback can knock him off unless you grab him from the ledge. All of those have super/hyper armor properties thats all I got for that research.

Steam · Jun 4, 2010

most of those only have super armor. and you might want to change one second to one frame lol

Tony T · Jun 4, 2010

Steam said:
most of those only have super armor. and you might want to change one second to one frame lol

lol sorry I'm still new to the frames aspect lol. It takes some getting used to lol.

Latias · Jun 4, 2010

sonicfalco said:
lol sorry I'm still new to the frames aspect lol. It takes some getting used to lol.

anyone have a frame to second ratio?

Tony T · Jun 4, 2010

Latias said:
anyone have a frame to second ratio?

I'm learning ok I'm good at brawl but I just never studied the frames and hitboxes yet I'm just trying to help anyway I can.

Steam · Jun 4, 2010

60 frames/sec

Kitamerby · Jun 4, 2010

sonicfalco said:
Here are the invinicibility frames that I know of.
Invincibility frames: Warios F-smash, DK's neutral B and up-B, Ike's Up-B and neutral B (only by contact) olimars down-B (hyper armor), Wolfs down B (hyper armor) (one frame) Charizards up-B, Sonic's Up-B, yoshis 2nd jump, Bowsers up-B on the ground idk for sure about that and zss down-B, snakes up-b only has a super armor to atks with less than 10% damage so only atks like b-air or a projectile atk with knockback can knock him off unless you grab him from the ledge. All of those have super/hyper armor properties thats all I got for that research.

Most of those are super armor, and Yoshi/Snake each have their own special type of armor. Snake won't flinch from moves doing 7% or less. Yoshi has severe knockback reduction, aka "Heavy Armor."

Quite a few standard moves do have invincibility frames, though.

Lucas' Usmash is invincible frames 1-4.
Sonic's usmash is invincible for a few frames during his initial hop.
King Dedede's utilt is invincible frames 5-8 iirc.

etc.

Latias said:
anyone have a frame to second ratio?

60 frames = 1 second.

There were two threads I used to read. One covered super armor and the other invincibility frames. I'll look them up later to give a full list if anyone cares.

phi1ny3 · Jun 4, 2010

-sonic sideB also has some invincibility from that "hop".
-Nana is invincible from Belay (if you have both climbers of course).
-MK grounded SL has invincibility on frame 5 (and only frame 5)
-Wario bite has grab armor as long as a hurtbox comes into contact and initiates the grab
-fox has a tiny bit of invincibility from shine (not as much as wolf's though)
-PKT2 has invincibility at the beginning, as do most space animal's sideBs
-G&W has invincibility from upB
-Pikachu has thunder invincibility if thunder makes contact with himself
-Ivy bullet seed has two frames of invincibility
-squirtle sideB has invincibility, but can receive knockback, can also be footstool jumped for lols.
-there's the more typical invincibility that results from most character upBs.

I guess that's it from everything that hasn't been covered.

Pitbuller26 · Jun 4, 2010

phi1ny3 said:
-MK grounded SL has invincibility on frame 5 (and only frame 5)

I lost a match in a tourney set against a MK because of that ****. Dang, I didn't that many moves had invincibility frames.

Kitamerby · Jun 4, 2010

phi1ny3 said:
-sonic sideB also has some invincibility from that "hop".
-Nana is invincible from Belay (if you have both climbers of course).
-MK grounded SL has invincibility on frame 5 (and only frame 5)
-Wario bite has grab armor as long as a hurtbox comes into contact and initiates the grab
-fox has a tiny bit of invincibility from shine (not as much as wolf's though)
-PKT2 has invincibility at the beginning, as do most space animal's sideBs
-G&W has invincibility from upB
-Pikachu has thunder invincibility if thunder makes contact with himself
-Ivy bullet seed has two frames of invincibility
-squirtle sideB has invincibility, but can receive knockback, can also be footstool jumped for lols.
-there's the more typical invincibility that results from most character upBs.

I guess that's it from everything that hasn't been covered.

That's not all. There's more than that. Especially among special moves.
Also, to correct you...

Also, Ivysaur's Bullet Seed has three frames of invincibility, and Fox's has two.
Meta Knight's shuttle loop on the ground is invincible frames 5-8 iirc.

Wario's Bite has absolutely no form of invincibility and I have absolutely no idea why the hell you even mentioned it.

Squirtle technically doesn't have true invincibility. It's more along the lines of invulnerability, since you can still attack him, it just doesn't do damage, and he can obviously be footstooled.

THere are many more moves with invincibility, though. You missed quite a few. Sheik's Up B, Transform, and Pokemon Switch for example. :V

phi1ny3 · Jun 4, 2010

Kitamerby said:
That's not all. There's more than that. Especially among special moves.
Also, to correct you...

Also, Ivysaur's Bullet Seed has three frames of invincibility, and Fox's has two.
Meta Knight's shuttle loop on the ground is invincible frames 5-8 iirc.

Wario's Bite has absolutely no form of invincibility and I have absolutely no idea why the hell you even mentioned it.

Squirtle technically doesn't have true invincibility. It's more along the lines of invulnerability, since you can still attack him, it just doesn't do damage, and he can obviously be footstooled.

THere are many more moves with invincibility, though. You missed quite a few. Sheik's Up B, Transform, and Pokemon Switch for example. :V

whoops, knew the MK one was wrong

I mentioned wario because people get ***** all the time by attacking it only to get eaten lol. Grab armor counts too, and I notice that wario tends to get hit with bite more than any other grab in the game.
Yeah squirtle's is definitely different since he receives knockback proportional to the attack used on the his withdraw.

Transform and switch are kinda givens, but since people tend to smack them for using it (not so much transform, but definitely switch) it's kind of a moot point. Sheik upB is another one I forgot, kinda unique too from other usual recoveries too I guess. I wasn't going to go about mentioning every single upB that had invincibility lol, there's plenty in that category.

Oh yeah and squirtle fsmash has super armor if that hasn't been mentioned.

RT · Jun 4, 2010

Command grabs too good, always.

culexus・wau · Jun 5, 2010

WAIT

MK upB doesn't have invincibility on start-up? [or at least immediate invincibility]

didn't know that.

Tony T · Jun 5, 2010

phi1ny3 said:
-sonic sideB also has some invincibility from that "hop".
-Nana is invincible from Belay (if you have both climbers of course).
-MK grounded SL has invincibility on frame 5 (and only frame 5)
-Wario bite has grab armor as long as a hurtbox comes into contact and initiates the grab
-fox has a tiny bit of invincibility from shine (not as much as wolf's though)
-PKT2 has invincibility at the beginning, as do most space animal's sideBs
-G&W has invincibility from upB
-Pikachu has thunder invincibility if thunder makes contact with himself
-Ivy bullet seed has two frames of invincibility
-squirtle sideB has invincibility, but can receive knockback, can also be footstool jumped for lols.
-there's the more typical invincibility that results from most character upBs.

I guess that's it from everything that hasn't been covered.

Thanks phi1ny3 there were a few things that I was unsure of.

phi1ny3 · Jun 5, 2010

FlameWaveK said:
WAIT

MK upB doesn't have invincibility on start-up? [or at least immediate invincibility]

didn't know that.

Only a couple of frames midway, while grounded, yup.
Which is kinda irrelevant since it's still blazingly fast and often is used on unsafe/incorrectly spaced attacks after they're performed.

culexus・wau · Jun 6, 2010

Hey I have junebug disease right now.

Snake is feeling harder then metaknight.

Gogogogo MU discussion tactics :<

I don't know much rather then play it safe on the ground until he's airborne.

Steam · Jun 6, 2010

does anyone know when/where our Dair beats out nado? sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't

hichez50 · Jun 6, 2010

During some of the beginning frames and move can know MK out of nado as long as it has enough range.

RT · Jun 6, 2010

You can nair MK out of nado...it's probably easier but that's just my opinion.

hichez50 · Jun 6, 2010

You can fsmash Mk out of nado if you have time to space it.

I have a question about the fox match-up. How do you deal with super aggressive players. To me it seems that fox is faster than he really is. I just have a hard time keeping up. It always seems that lucario doesn't have the speed.

iDeo · Jun 6, 2010

hichez50 said:
You can fsmash Mk out of nado if you have time to space it.

I have a question about the fox match-up. How do you deal with super aggressive players. To me it seems that fox is faster than he really is. I just have a hard time keeping up. It always seems that lucario doesn't have the speed.

Lucario can't handle speedy characters, his moves won't allow it. In these MUs with fast characters you have to sit-back and play the patient game. I like using pivot grabs in these because half the time their dashing towards me. Lucario up-tilt is good in these Mus for juggling and when their in the air, using the fair. Don't spam the fsmash because they'll punish u for it, especially Fox's upsmash.

In the nutshell just mix-up ur movements and be creative, shifts momentum in ur favor. If ur gettin' pressured just keep ur cool.

hichez50 · Jun 6, 2010

Makes sense. Up tilt is not effective on fast fallers at lower percents because they can shield then grab you out of your uptilt.

MythTrainerInfinity · Jun 6, 2010

You can hit MK out of Nado with DSmash, but its so hard I wouldn't recommend it unless you're super frame precise. USmash works too, but it too is hard to land.

culexus・wau · Jun 6, 2010

If foxes are approaching you they're doing it wrong.

sh AD can be met with uptilt or grab.

dair is sickingly easy to shieldgrab.

you shouldn't be having a problem with an offensive fox, at least not as much as a runaway fox.

if aggressive actually means running away and camping [I do hope it doesn't]

You're going to need to be patient and wait for an opportunity to get him in the air, and keep him there.
getting him offstage is even better.

Dair usually clanks with nado when you're too close. in those situations I usually footstool or nair the nado :>

Vionce · Jun 6, 2010

Steam said:
does anyone know when/where our Dair beats out nado? sometimes it does sometimes it doesn't

All dairs beat out nado when positioned right above it. You might be fast falling the dair or MK is a little to the side.

\*/ =nado
*=MK

HyperEnergy · Jun 6, 2010

Dair beats Tornado when you space yourself as far away from MK as possible while still being in range to hit MK's head. If you're too close Tornado will clank and keep going.

Basically it's difficult to pull off.

iDeo · Jun 7, 2010

HyperEnergy said:
Dair beats Tornado when you space yourself as far away from MK as possible while still being in range to hit MK's head. If you're too close Tornado will clank and keep going.

Basically it's difficult to pull off.

It's better not to even try to dair his nado anymore. It's useless so just get away from it. Saves time and u don't get unnecessary damage.

phi1ny3 · Jun 7, 2010

Do you know what I say?

Lucario has an amazing shield game against tornado

notice what all the procarios do when they aren't being too pressured by tornado?

they roll away since it's hard to catch it in the right frames when they're swerving but also keeps your shield strong.

Tony T · Jun 7, 2010

phi1ny3 said:
Do you know what I always say?

Lucario has an amazing shield game against tornado

notice what all the procarios do when they aren't being too pressured by tornado?

they roll away since it's hard to catch it in the right frames when they're swerving but also keeps your shield strong.

True true on that one either shield or roll from tornados,that is your best options or AS it when you have good distance but make sure its charged or it does not work. Nado goes through the little ones.

MythTrainerInfinity · Jun 9, 2010

Ph1l check the LBR, I averaged the MU ratios and set up a downloadable excel file.

Not sure if you want to do with it here, so I'm not posting it in public unless if you want me to.

With the way some ratios are... we may want to pull a Pikachu boards and use integers instead of just multiples of 5 (or go one step further and use decimals!).

Well anyways we're probably bound to get things together soon and get back to official discussion, folks!

iDeo · Jun 9, 2010

The only thing that annoys me mostly about MK is his u-air streams. haha, i hate getting caught in those. 2 frame up-air man, it's such a pain

MythTrainerInfinity · Jun 10, 2010

To keep people in the know here are the current official raw averages of what the LBR members say about the match-ups. This list may be updated as more LBR members cast their votes.

You know the drill, 50 is even, anything less is a disadvantage, and anything more is an advantage. Yes, we are going one step further than the Pika boards with the power of decimals!

Average
Meta Knight 40.56
Snake 40.56
Diddy Kong 46.94
Falco 46.39
Ice Climbers 51.67
Marth 42.22
Wario 45.56
King Dedede 39.44
Pikachu 57.78
Olimar 43.33
Mr. Game & Watch 51.11
Pit 52.78
Toon Link 53.89
Zero Suit Samus 53.89
Kirby 53.33
R.O.B. 51.67
Donkey Kong 48.89
Peach 59.44
Fox 48.33
Luigi 58.33
Wolf 50.56
Sheik 61.67
Pokemon Trainer 60.00
Squirtle 56.25
Ivysaur 66.25
Charizard 58.75
Sonic 63.89
Ness 57.78
Bowser 60.00
Lucas 59.38
Ike 62.22
Yoshi 63.89
Mario 60.56
Captian Falcon 63.33
Samus 63.75
Jigglypuff 62.22
Zelda 66.67
Link 66.11
Ganondorf 73.33

Sorry if I posted it earlier than you wanted people to see it, Ph1l.

Pitbuller26 · Jun 10, 2010

Some people in the LBR need to learn how to fight Diddy and Falco as those are completely even matchups.

Kitamerby · Jun 10, 2010

When the hell did we have a BR?

MythTrainerInfinity · Jun 10, 2010

Pitbuller26 said:
Some people in the LBR need to learn how to fight Diddy and Falco as those are completely even matchups.

Then let's start talkin' about them. That's why I posted it here, so we can keep on movin' forward in these MUs.

I feel Diddy is still 55:45 us and Falco is 50:50.

If you trade hits from a nanner and a BAS Lucario will do more damage and have time to get up. Diddy can become more aggressive horizontally in the air, but spaced right our FAir will hit without trading.

You can grab Diddy out of his Dash Attack and FSmash. Diddy's DSmash comes out in 6 frames, so grounded Luc's DSmash is a bad idea.

Diddy's first and second hit of his Dash Attack has 6 frames of blockhitlag and 1 frame of blockstun. This means you have a four frame window to grab him (the last frame you will take damage, but still grab due to grab armor).

Diddy's FSmash first hit has 2 frames of blockstun and 6 frames of blockhitlag so between hits you have a 5 frame window (11 frames total) to grab him during his FSmash.

Diddy's UAir comes out in 3 frames.
Diddy's Fair comes out in 6 frames.
Diddy's BAir comes out in 5 frames.
Diddy's DAir comes out in 13 frames.
Diddy's Jab comes out in 3 frames.
Diddy's DTilt comes out in 4 frames.
Diddy's FTilt comes out in 10 frames.
Diddy's UTilt comes out in 6 frames.

Even though he's faster than us in the air we have our disjointedness.

Diddy's kick from his side B comes out as early as frame 16.
Diddy's facehug grabs on frame 19-32 of his side B.

Either way that gives you more than enough time to evade it (roll), but if we're all frame perfect our FAir will not hit him before his kick comes out.

Just be weary of Diddy's 6 frame UTilt when you're like 170%, as it will kill you. I remember ADHD spammed that when I was above him in a WiFi set.

I think that if we Lucarios played this particular match-up more patiently we'd do better.

Diddy's Frame Data:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=239185

Diddy's hitbubbles:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=273438

ShippoFoxFire · Jun 10, 2010

I don't have a problem with diddy, stay mobile and stay in the air. never dair him with a banana in his hand, in fact, don't attack him from the air at all. he can shield, then take your lag from the attack and banana you, grab you, and do all sorts of crazy things. You outdo him in the air, he also really can't kill you outside of a well placed Fair fresh, or a dsmash. You should NEVER die from FSMASH if you see it comming, you can smash DI it up or away and have the 2nd his either phantom or miss you completely (iirc)

Steam · Jun 10, 2010

R.O.B. 51.67

how

MythTrainerInfinity · Jun 10, 2010

Steam said:
R.O.B. 51.67

how

Its an average of what was said in the LBR.

SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess

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