6Mizu
Smash Champion
I'd say most MKs would ban Halbred...so should we take them to FD or Lylat? What about one of MLG's stages?
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Snake vs. Metaknight
- Thread starter Underload
- Start date
Limeee
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2005
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- 8,189
Yeah because they don't have shuttle loop.
AfroQT
Smash Master
THe advantages snake gets on green greens is ****ing stupid, his camping game there is completely unfair.
Dark 3nergy
Smash Hero
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here bb you may borrow this icon
other emicons i would also use to describe this thread would be;
Underload
Lazy
I like Afro, his videos were what got me into Smash.
AfroQT
Smash Master
What?
What does this even mean?
Rofl if you really dont think GG is a good counterpick, you kno wnothing about your character, how the **** is someone going to approach snake from ABOVE him? When you add in tossing grenades over the blocks, it gets even more ridiculous, should anyone come over there, you have such a ridiculously long period of time to react, that if you havent made safe your escape or attack, you must be completely ********.
But hey dont take my word for it, instead be ******* and go "no no no, im right you are wrong".
If you are going to say i am wrong atleast be logically with it, i hate stupid people.
It is okay one day you will be a good snake until then remember the snake prowls fiercly but does not scratch his own back.
I never said you were wrong, I said people have very little experience on this stage compared to other stages such that it's hard to really say anything about it
don't see how it matters anyway, most tournaments aren't following MLG's lead anyway, this stage is irrelevant.
Just by comparing it to other stages you can usually guestimate how well it helps Snake.
It has aspects of Halberd, battlefield and Lylat. Snake can kill MK at ABSURD percents, and he can 0-death tech chase infinite on the platforms easily. C4s and mines can go anywhere. I've played a handful of friendlies on it and it's pretty gross.
It has aspects of Halberd, battlefield and Lylat. Snake can kill MK at ABSURD percents, and he can 0-death tech chase infinite on the platforms easily. C4s and mines can go anywhere. I've played a handful of friendlies on it and it's pretty gross.
6Mizu
Smash Champion
The MU is even here. IMO
I'd say if your opponent bans Halbred we go Lylat or FD. If he/she ban Lylat we go FD or Halbred. Etc.
My point is that no matter what your opponent bans we'll still have 2 stages we can take them to.
AfroQT
Smash Master
rofl except that while mlg is doing Brawl they will be the most important tournaments by far, practicing on this stage is extremely smart if you plan on going to mlg.
I have enough experience ont he stage to realize its completely ridiculous for the camping snake EASILY in Snakes favor MK could not opssibly catch Snake AND if Mk gets the lead Snake can make allh is approaches even MORE safe.
Limeee
Smash Champion
i'm with afro here
green greens has always been legal in our region, and its my favorite counterpick
uptilt kills amazing, di into blocks for random saves and we camp like a mofo
snake has the advantage vs MK on that stage
green greens has always been legal in our region, and its my favorite counterpick
uptilt kills amazing, di into blocks for random saves and we camp like a mofo
snake has the advantage vs MK on that stage
hey question
why does everyone think fd is so good in this mu? im not being a smart ***, i genuinely dont know why. i like platforms, namely cause they make camping so much easier and lessen the usefulness of mk's dair... so why fd?
why does everyone think fd is so good in this mu? im not being a smart ***, i genuinely dont know why. i like platforms, namely cause they make camping so much easier and lessen the usefulness of mk's dair... so why fd?
He got no platforms to retreat onto with nado. So his nado lands him on a flat stage. Filled with your nades, c4, and mines. Plus if he uses nado high, he falls pretty slowly, and with no platforms, easy punish.
Limeee
Smash Champion
i have a problem with the 3rd best player in my region (alphicans, or luke)
so what luke does is he tornadoes, alot. everytime i reverse a grenade to punish it, he stops, and then runs up and grabs me
if i do anything out of grenade stance (ie spot dodge etc.) he will react to that
what other options do we have against tornado beside explosives and sometimes grenades?
so what luke does is he tornadoes, alot. everytime i reverse a grenade to punish it, he stops, and then runs up and grabs me
if i do anything out of grenade stance (ie spot dodge etc.) he will react to that
what other options do we have against tornado beside explosives and sometimes grenades?
you can utilt it, somewhat difficult if he spaces well because the range on utilt is a little less than half of what it normally is if they're diagonally above you and it can be baited since tornado has wario like air movement. shot tossed nades will prevent him from using it for a moment, usually just shielding it is your best option IMO
it's a large stage that gives you a lot of space to run away and makes it difficult to KO you until very high %. perhaps platforms are a personal preference for you but in my experience it tends to benefit me(as MK) more than snake opponents
i dunno, but i definitely feel like i can shut down mks approach options with a platform to put stuff on. ill try fd this weekend.
TwentyTwo
Smash Ace
If sounds like you're landing? Or he just comes and approaches you with tornado? If you're landing it sounds like you're doing things too early, and actually giving him the option to wait and react accordingly. You won't have to pull a nade until he's already committed to some form of chasing you.
If it's on the ground then, your best idea is to shield, sometimes crawl. But yeah, utilt and explosives too, and you can grab out of your grenade stance and beat his grab? I think so at least, I do it, but it might be the failure of MKs I play against. So, when I'm in grenade stance and he comes at me with an attack, spotdodge/shield, if he just dashes at me it's usually stopped in a grab/shield, and I grab, and finally if it's nado, I shield.
On FD I just feel free to do whatever, it's a nice big stage to roam, put stuff down and things like that. Like Afro mentioned, how the **** is someone going to come at you from above? I use that kind of principle on this stage, making it hard to approach on the ground, and a smart anti-air game from the ground make me a fan of FD. If it's nado from above, you can definitely duck it, and if it's dair/rising dair, bounce nades off the floor/short toss, mortar even, and throw out a utilt.
Tech-Nelium the Shark
Smash Ace
if GG is a good stage to CP can we start a discussion on it. My group is starting to use other stages than the starter stages and i want to know how to play some of the other CP stages. And afro are you going to be at the next ZP cause im finally back home and I think i'll attend this one.
**Havok**
Smash Lord
I don't think anyone's addressed grenade shenanigans 
I find that having only ONE grenade active (in Snake's hand or air and ground) is much better than trying to have both bouncing around, this especially holds true if an MK is grounded and waiting for opportunities.
Depending on the MK distance from Snake, switch from:
(Always starting with holding grenade...)
grenade->shield. Wait.
grenade-> walk backwards.
grenade -> walk forward.
grenade-> walk backwards with Snake's back facing MK
grenade -> toss up/backwards.
grenade-> spot dodge dash attack/grab. (strict read)
grenade -> roll backwards.
grenade -> regular toss. Grenade.
ETC.
Basically all of the options are reactionary. Adjust to what the MK likes to do, for example, some like to upB from the floor to get around any type of a Grenade wall; so you can roll away from the UpB with a grenade in your hand and be ready to punish the UpB with a dash attack etc etc. Think of these grenade patterns as your mixup to MK's position presence.
If an MK is Dair camping, holding a grenade and rolling into the opposite side (using the invincibility frames to get through dairs) gives Snake breathing room to manuever on the floor + a grenade on a possible landing zone for MK. This loses to tornado though, MK's don't always have perfect timing so it's always a nice option to have anyways.
Glide attack can be challenged with a Nair pretty safely (going backwards).
You know that awkward position where you take out a grenade ---> MK tornados your front side? Just toss it backwards, you'll both blow up! Who cares if you're in the air, you both got hit (that's a plus) and you're both relatively in the same situation.
This matchup requires the Snake player to take the slower road to victory. For example, sometimes after a successfully blocked tornado, the MK lands at a distance where Snake MAY be able to ftilt if he gets there in time; I find it much more useful to be in a "take what you can get attitude" and take the weak dash attack instead. It's safer and you're still dealing dmg, instead of risking getting hit, PS, etc etc and punished for being greedy. It's not that you're playing "afraid," you're playing smart! Any type of exposure without a grenade is asking for the Snake player to get hurt (best advice Candy ever gave me).
Sorry if this has already been said, all I did was look at the first post with all the information.
I find that having only ONE grenade active (in Snake's hand or air and ground) is much better than trying to have both bouncing around, this especially holds true if an MK is grounded and waiting for opportunities.
Depending on the MK distance from Snake, switch from:
(Always starting with holding grenade...)
grenade->shield. Wait.
grenade-> walk backwards.
grenade -> walk forward.
grenade-> walk backwards with Snake's back facing MK
grenade -> toss up/backwards.
grenade-> spot dodge dash attack/grab. (strict read)
grenade -> roll backwards.
grenade -> regular toss. Grenade.
ETC.
Basically all of the options are reactionary. Adjust to what the MK likes to do, for example, some like to upB from the floor to get around any type of a Grenade wall; so you can roll away from the UpB with a grenade in your hand and be ready to punish the UpB with a dash attack etc etc. Think of these grenade patterns as your mixup to MK's position presence.
If an MK is Dair camping, holding a grenade and rolling into the opposite side (using the invincibility frames to get through dairs) gives Snake breathing room to manuever on the floor + a grenade on a possible landing zone for MK. This loses to tornado though, MK's don't always have perfect timing so it's always a nice option to have anyways.
Glide attack can be challenged with a Nair pretty safely (going backwards).
You know that awkward position where you take out a grenade ---> MK tornados your front side? Just toss it backwards, you'll both blow up! Who cares if you're in the air, you both got hit (that's a plus) and you're both relatively in the same situation.
This matchup requires the Snake player to take the slower road to victory. For example, sometimes after a successfully blocked tornado, the MK lands at a distance where Snake MAY be able to ftilt if he gets there in time; I find it much more useful to be in a "take what you can get attitude" and take the weak dash attack instead. It's safer and you're still dealing dmg, instead of risking getting hit, PS, etc etc and punished for being greedy. It's not that you're playing "afraid," you're playing smart! Any type of exposure without a grenade is asking for the Snake player to get hurt (best advice Candy ever gave me).
Sorry if this has already been said, all I did was look at the first post with all the information.
Underload
Lazy
You spelled 'god tier' wrong.
**Havok**
Smash Lord
In the position where MK has you offstage, ALWAYS cypher STRAIGHT UP, then move forward. While this means you sacrifice horizontal mobility, you won't get shuttle looped over and over again! An MK will try to anticipate the recovery so drop low and grab the ledge. Mix and match.
The one thing I learned the best from this matchup is recovery mixup, everyone keeps mentioning it, with good reason! It's absolutely vital the Snake player switches from landing with:
Airdodge ---> buffer X
Land --> Buffer X
Aerial --> to Aerial (this tricks people, I don't know why)
Aerial
Grenade (hold) land
Grenade toss -- land --> grenade hold
Grenade Pivot---> land
Grenade toss ---> follow grenade trajectory (someone already wrote this)
ALWAYS keep moving horizontally away from the MK, air dodge the moment MK has the Opportunity to shuttle, notice I said OPPORTUNITY! It doesn't matter if he does or doesn't, it's not worth taking the risk of a maybe. MK can't move quickly enough in the air to catch a good Snake in the air, with that being said, there should always be horizontal movement of some sort in your landings. At least try to make it minimal, for example, Snake looks like he's going to land straight down but near the ground you move Slightly away , enough to get around a grab.
Snake should not have a problem blowing up with the MK with grenades. If the MK decides to Fair a million times and nado into the grenades blowing you both up racking up dmg from simply grenades and his aerials:
Snake %120
MK %90
That's not MK advantage, that's Snake advantage. Who cares if you're at higher percent, you won't die for a while and the MK only has about %10-%20 of leeway to survive. It's only terrible at higher percents where grenades aren't fresh, when they blow up the Snake ends up slightly on top of the MK where he can land a simple Upair. Good thing, it doesn't happen often if you use grenades consistently. You WANT MK to get to higher percents because of grenades!
Grenade intervals should be random, MK can simply run in between predictable grenade lobs. Mix up between:
Lob one ---> cook one
Grenade shield drop. Grenade shield drop. Throw. Wait. Shield. (Bait)
Grenade backwards lob ---> Grenade lob. Grenade Pick up. Throw!
Grenade lob. Wait.
Grenade lob. Grenade lob.
Grenade lob. Filt. (running read)
Make your own!
Grenade has a few uses people tend to forget:
1. They deal dmg on impact (non explosive). It's important because every % counts!
2. They deplete shields. Makes Ftilt, Uptilt, Dair, and C4 that much more useful. MK's shield isn't AMAZING, cracks show on his fatty sides.
3. Creates opportunities. Makes the MK react. DOUBLE EDGE SWORD. lol.
Motar isn't to attack an MK from below, it's annoy his landing. Think about it, A C4, a grenade on the floor, an Uptilt AND an Motar? That's annoying, he'll probably Nado because he's out of jumps. Which means he'll be predictable.
Snake controls the tempo of the match with scenarios like the one mentioned above, Snake has tools to make MK do what Snake wants him to do. He has the capacity to create opportunities for the weird things Snake has, Nair, Dair, Bair, Upair, downtilt. If you're using one of those it usually means you have control of the situation and temporary position momentum. It's definitely high risk but the psychological and mechanical reward is definitely worth it; the MK might stop Nado-ing if you land a Dair, might stop dairing directly above to avoid UpAir. Etc Etc Etc.
P.S. I only know the MK matchup (still learning) lmao
The one thing I learned the best from this matchup is recovery mixup, everyone keeps mentioning it, with good reason! It's absolutely vital the Snake player switches from landing with:
Airdodge ---> buffer X
Land --> Buffer X
Aerial --> to Aerial (this tricks people, I don't know why)
Aerial
Grenade (hold) land
Grenade toss -- land --> grenade hold
Grenade Pivot---> land
Grenade toss ---> follow grenade trajectory (someone already wrote this)
ALWAYS keep moving horizontally away from the MK, air dodge the moment MK has the Opportunity to shuttle, notice I said OPPORTUNITY! It doesn't matter if he does or doesn't, it's not worth taking the risk of a maybe. MK can't move quickly enough in the air to catch a good Snake in the air, with that being said, there should always be horizontal movement of some sort in your landings. At least try to make it minimal, for example, Snake looks like he's going to land straight down but near the ground you move Slightly away , enough to get around a grab.
Snake should not have a problem blowing up with the MK with grenades. If the MK decides to Fair a million times and nado into the grenades blowing you both up racking up dmg from simply grenades and his aerials:
Snake %120
MK %90
That's not MK advantage, that's Snake advantage. Who cares if you're at higher percent, you won't die for a while and the MK only has about %10-%20 of leeway to survive. It's only terrible at higher percents where grenades aren't fresh, when they blow up the Snake ends up slightly on top of the MK where he can land a simple Upair. Good thing, it doesn't happen often if you use grenades consistently. You WANT MK to get to higher percents because of grenades!
Grenade intervals should be random, MK can simply run in between predictable grenade lobs. Mix up between:
Lob one ---> cook one
Grenade shield drop. Grenade shield drop. Throw. Wait. Shield. (Bait)
Grenade backwards lob ---> Grenade lob. Grenade Pick up. Throw!
Grenade lob. Wait.
Grenade lob. Grenade lob.
Grenade lob. Filt. (running read)
Make your own!
Grenade has a few uses people tend to forget:
1. They deal dmg on impact (non explosive). It's important because every % counts!
2. They deplete shields. Makes Ftilt, Uptilt, Dair, and C4 that much more useful. MK's shield isn't AMAZING, cracks show on his fatty sides.
3. Creates opportunities. Makes the MK react. DOUBLE EDGE SWORD. lol.
Motar isn't to attack an MK from below, it's annoy his landing. Think about it, A C4, a grenade on the floor, an Uptilt AND an Motar? That's annoying, he'll probably Nado because he's out of jumps. Which means he'll be predictable.
Snake controls the tempo of the match with scenarios like the one mentioned above, Snake has tools to make MK do what Snake wants him to do. He has the capacity to create opportunities for the weird things Snake has, Nair, Dair, Bair, Upair, downtilt. If you're using one of those it usually means you have control of the situation and temporary position momentum. It's definitely high risk but the psychological and mechanical reward is definitely worth it; the MK might stop Nado-ing if you land a Dair, might stop dairing directly above to avoid UpAir. Etc Etc Etc.
P.S. I only know the MK matchup (still learning) lmao
oh havok, hurry up and get your arse to australia!
Orion*
Smash Researcher
thats like the worst reason ever >_>
tbh i think that mk mains just like platforms better than most people. snake has a lot more landing options out of a juggle on BF and camping underneath a platform is verrry gay for mk to deal with rather than me just being able to go at you.
the only reason i could see FD being better than BF is that there is more room to maneuver (Not Run) and tbh there are more benefits by having platforms than there is by not having them
ZeroL
Smash Apprentice
Underload, you're a ****ing idiot!
Cenel can't make a Snake vs Marth thread but you can make several Snake vs w/e threads. Seriously, throw yourself away please.
Cenel can't make a Snake vs Marth thread but you can make several Snake vs w/e threads. Seriously, throw yourself away please.
AlMoStLeGeNdArY
Smash Hero
tells why you mad son. Tell us why you mad.
Underload
Lazy
You're obviously too dense to understand that these threads are made for the ****ing matchup thread.
Cenel posted a thread that clearly belonged in the video critique sticky.
So I was like "lolno. This is clearly a thread that belongs in the video critique sticky. Go there, or to the matchup database and find the Marth thread. Then I'll look at it, and so will others. *lock*"
So then he got mad and goes "NO I DON'T WANT TO DO THAT, YOU'RE SO UNFAIR!! I'M GOING TO TELL OTHER EUROPEANS ABOUT YOUR BOARD SO WE CAN ALL RAID IT"
So I infracted the **** out of cenel and his cronies, and that was the end of that.
ZeroL
Smash Apprentice
Mwah, I didn't know his thread was a video critique thread. My bad! My apologies for acting a bit too fast.
Wilmenz
Smash Journeyman
Pivot grab beats nado...
whats up snake boards sorry i was away for 2 weeks i was at bushido and i repped the snakes well :D also i heard u won a tourny recently redhalberd keep it up good stuff, and yea if mk nados just sheild tilt it up and punish his landing with a bufferd d air or grab or f tilt or up tilt ( all them options are available if he lands next to u) if he nados then backs away towards the nado run and punish with a dacus or grab is the best option most of time depending how much lag the mk has , if u get caught in the torando smash di out and usually i back air while i just get out and it hits the mk out nado xD
sometimes ur stuck in it but bushido i vsed rydles mk in loser bracket and he did like 2 nados in 1 match i was around 60% and somehow got out and back air instantly as i got out it hit him out nado , sometimes im stuck in nado tho
I've seen this done, done it, and had it done against me.
But I don't understand how it works it seems random and to rely on how much they press B while you're in the tornado. If they dont mash B hard enough it doesnt seem like you can get out...
I have to say, I love Havok's advice on this matchup!! really easy to understand and clearcut to the point lol.
Ohhh and you guys really do need to let go of the whole MK is impossible to beat mindset. I'm NEW to snake (about 3 weeks) and I've already taken games and sets off of experienced MK mains like Orion, Big M, etc. in friendlies and I don't even know the matchup completely yet. MK can gimp snake, but snake wins in % output ratio. Thats it.
I agree with AfroThundah, and after watching Bizkit vs Ksizzle a couple weeks/a month? ago @ Doom's... I realized that Snake vs MK really isn't as impossible as everyone thinks. Considering they went game 3 last hit... which is also the reason I picked up Snake. Bizkit inspired me <3. So cmon guys! Let's step it up and shut all these MK's down!!
Ohhh and you guys really do need to let go of the whole MK is impossible to beat mindset. I'm NEW to snake (about 3 weeks) and I've already taken games and sets off of experienced MK mains like Orion, Big M, etc. in friendlies and I don't even know the matchup completely yet. MK can gimp snake, but snake wins in % output ratio. Thats it.
I agree with AfroThundah, and after watching Bizkit vs Ksizzle a couple weeks/a month? ago @ Doom's... I realized that Snake vs MK really isn't as impossible as everyone thinks. Considering they went game 3 last hit... which is also the reason I picked up Snake. Bizkit inspired me <3. So cmon guys! Let's step it up and shut all these MK's down!!