Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

Huggles828 · Jun 23, 2010

Reflector. He can hover in place on the edge and spam reflector. If you tether, as you reel yourself in towards the edge, you'll get hit before you grab the edge, semispiked, won't get your double jump back if you used it, and because Link's Bup is based on his current momentum, you won't be able to get back to the edge, and you are dead. It's not very pretty and only too easy for Fox

If you're feeling ballsy (I would really NOT recommend it) and predict Fox is going to Bside to grab the edge, you can jump off backwards, fast fall air dodge, and tether while BELOW the edge to edgehog him, since he can't knock your hookshot off the edge and if you're low enough he can't hit you. Most Foxes and Falcos I know will aim to get back on the stage itself and hit you with their Bside if they suspect any trickery though.

Ryos4 · Jun 23, 2010

If we are going to cover Fox's recover more, i think it should be known that there is a glitch that allows Fox to refresh his double jump and up special after an Illusion without actually grabbing the ledge or landing on the stage.

If you use an illusion into the wall and you are too high to grab the ledge and you are too low to actually stand on the ground you just hit the wall and then start to fall again with assuming very little to no lag. With complete access to your air jump and recovery moves again. I was looking for a Youtube clip of this but i gave up.

This glitch/AT can be completely devastating to fox if he wasnt trying to do it. But if he does do it on purpose, it can give him tons of options for recovery, and it might even get around edge hogs without actually having to knock you off. Im not sure i've never seen it happen when someone is edge hogging.

Just thought i would throw that out there.

Also since Fox players are here already, how bout we do the Fox+Link Team?

Conviction · Jun 23, 2010

Oh one last thing about the MU before we go to teams, you don't see foxes trying to gimp with Dair cause most of them still don't have the timing for an offstage drillshine even though it has been 2 years since that technique came out if Foxes messes up he dies.

Hmmm Fox+Link? I know we can cover for you lack of speed in certain situtations, but wouldn't the projectiles get in the way sometimes? Fox's Nair not only combos into his Usmash but in teams Fox's Nair sets up a lot of 2v1 action. Fox Nair>Link Ftilt, Fox Nair>Link Utilt. Fox's punishing game increases in 2v2s and weaknesses disappear because he has a partner to stop any gayness know as shiek or pika.

Ryos4 · Jun 23, 2010

Thx for your input in the Link + Fox Team. But for future reference the teams thread is:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10265586#post10265586

#HBC | Red Ryu · Jun 24, 2010

xIblisx said:
Fox ***** on Battlefield and Halberd so strike BF and ban Halberd.

Fox might take you to FD to camp you though.

Take to Lylat cause once a Fox knows Delfino he won't illision through for an SD. Idk where as to take him as Link.

70:30 Fox's favor sound good?

I agree with 7:3.

Even looking at Legan vs Zetan look at the first video around 1:17 that Scabe posted, it illustrates why I think this match-up is absolutely terrible. Fox can punish way too much so easily, out camped, out sped, gimping. Legan did show how to play it right, bomb mix-ups, Z-air at the right times.

Fox will die on the early side, but Usmash will undoubtedly kill Link much sooner.

I've thought about how to play this, but honestly I'm at a loss. This match-up is really frustrating for me, learning the safety zones and how to punish properly is honestly something I recommend, the very few moments Link will get.

Ryos4 · Jun 24, 2010

Well if you think about it. When Link gets to like 100% Fox will start looking for a Usmash. You know its going to be coming. So wouldn't that be like the best time to punish him when hes trying to force a kill?

Conviction · Jun 24, 2010

Ryos4 said:
Well if you think about it. When Link gets to like 100% Fox will start looking for a Usmash. You know its going to be coming. So wouldn't that be like the best time to punish him when hes trying to force a kill?

Fox shouldn't be forcing a kill especially since he will be making you approach. Plus we can kill with Bair,Dsmash,Uair, or we can think about throwing you offstage.

Rizen · Jun 24, 2010

I agree with what people said- this MU's a killer.
We should be thinking of Link's advantages.
DI
Reach
long lasting hit bubbles
Power

Combining all these is important. I've never played a good Fox so this analysis is based on data and matches like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u45cpzbP6FM

Big advantage we can use: Fox has no range stun. This lets Link space 'tip of attack' and we out reach Fox. Most of our game should be spacing SH Zair, landing canceling moves, and quick ground attacks (jabs, Utilt, Dsmash).

Fox is fast with a reflector and we must approach. Link still can spam safely (relatively) just in a different style. Boomerang deals no damage when reflected, constant attack going out and has good stun at close range- maybe a good retreat aid. Bombs: vertical traveling bombs (up/down throw, dropped, invincibomb) will not have their 'flight paths' changed by reflectors. Explotions cannot be reflected either. These help Link's SH spacing. Zair's easy to throw out for mind games.

DI+Reach: Link's OoS is horrible, Fox and most characters up close murder Link. Link does have amazing DI and disjointed reach. I DI sideways and Zair Falco to prevent follow ups, that might work here. DIing out of multi-hit attacks usually leaves Link able to reach through and hit. Hitbubble/Frame visuals:
Jab 1:

Frame 6: Hitbox out: 4 damage, 2 frame duration.
Frame 7: You can start Jab 2.
Frame 19: IASA. At this point you can do any action, but pressing A will still do Jab 2.
UTilt:

Frame 7: Hitbox out: 9 damage.
--Angle: Blade: 95. Hilt, Arm, Torso: 85.
Frame 12: end of hitbox.
Frame 35: IASA
DSmash:

3 frames until charging. Upon release:
Frame 3 (6 frames uncharged): Hitbox out: 3 frame duration. Angle = 75.
--Damage: Blade = 14. Hilt = 16. Arm = 17. Torso = 16.
Frame 15: Hitbox out: 3 frame duration. Angle = 75.
--Damage: Blade = Hilt = Torso = 16. Arm = 17.
Frame 50: End of animation.
Air Landing canceling attacks:
NAir:

Frame 6: Hitbox out: 10 damage.
--At this point if you land you suffer NAir landing animation.
Frame 8: Damage reduced to 6, hitboxes become smaller.
Frame 27: End hitboxes.
Frame 31: Autocancel
--NAir landing lag has a frame 9 IASA

FAir:

--FAir landing animation can happen immediately.
Frame 13: Hitbox out: 9 damage, 2 frame duration.
Frame 25: Hitbox out: 12 damage, 2 frame duration.
Frame 50: Autocancel.
--Fair landing lag has a frame 10 IASA

BAir:

--BAir landing animation can happen immediately.
Frame 5: Hitbox out: 4 damage, 4 frame duration.
Frame 17: Hitbox out: 7 damage, 6 frame duration.
Frame 28: Autocancel.
Frame 30: IASA
--BAir landing lag has a frame 10 IASA
Zair starts frame 10.
Notice the area covered by Nair; it's big all around Link. I use it as a combo stopper vs Sheik. Frames 6-27 attack and it landing cancels.

Spacing Fox should be the #1 priority.

Huggles828 · Jun 24, 2010

Fox doesn't really have to fish too much for a usmash kill since he has a lot of setups to either usmash or another of his fairly solid kill moves. We do outrange him, but Fox is so fast we have to be crazy careful. Make every attack count. A miss is often enough to give Fox an opening.

I agree with Rizen. Spacing is gonna be key, but it's not gonna be easy.

IYM! · Jun 24, 2010

with bombs and boomerang when fox is on stage and arrows when he is out stage
fox can not reflect very well the bomb, i mean, when fox do his reflector, the bomb is reflected from diagonally down, make easy spam fox with ours bomb,

the boomerang dont do damage when is reflected
other thing. a fox player alwais wil do his side-B for recovery and he will try to reach the ledge, in that istant we need to be fast and grab the ledge, this tactic help me sometimes

Also, take adventages for his light weight, link have several of kill moves, and fox can easily kill.

Ryos4 · Jun 26, 2010

Ryos4 said:
If we are going to cover Fox's recover more, i think it should be known that there is a glitch that allows Fox to refresh his double jump and up special after an Illusion without actually grabbing the ledge or landing on the stage.

If you use an illusion into the wall and you are too high to grab the ledge and you are too low to actually stand on the ground you just hit the wall and then start to fall again with assuming very little to no lag. With complete access to your air jump and recovery moves again. I was looking for a Youtube clip of this but i gave up.

This glitch/AT can be completely devastating to fox if he wasnt trying to do it. But if he does do it on purpose, it can give him tons of options for recovery, and it might even get around edge hogs without actually having to knock you off. Im not sure i've never seen it happen when someone is edge hogging.

I couldnt find the video with fox but i found one with falco which is basically the same.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hb64qzPTrGA 0:08 seconds in. 3rd attempt at edge hog.

It can be happen at any time during the animation of illusion. It gives fox his second jump where he can do some serious mind games. It can also be done over and over if you have good timing.

Huggles828 · Jun 26, 2010

Ah, I have that happen occasionally when I play as Wolf. Didn't realize it happened to Fox and Falco too.

Are there any practical uses for this?

Ryos4 · Jun 26, 2010

Im not that sure, im not a fox player. But i know you can jump instantly after that and I've also seen double illusions.

An interesting combo that could work is if Link is standing at the edge waiting for fox. For some stupid reason. SideB glitch>Jump>Shine>SideB could actually be dangerous. If knock back and everything is just right it might even lead into an up smash.

Other possibilities could be to do w/e is possible to fox as a ledge release without any lag from actually grabbing the ledge, thus increasing foxes speed in his recovery. It also might even get around edge hogs via tether and Fox could just fall and Shine you in the face and recover to safety.

Also how is Nair as a Utilt combo stopper against fox?

Edit: Actually heres the video i saw before. Fox probably has a lot more options out there with his set of aerials and shine stall.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UxicKrbeud8&feature=related

Conviction · Jun 26, 2010

What frame does your Nair come out on?

Rizen · Jun 26, 2010

xIblisx said:
What frame does your Nair come out on?

Frame 6.
---------------

Conviction · Jun 26, 2010

I thought link didn't have any moves faster than frame 7? But anyways you Nair isn't gonna break the chain too slow.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Jun 27, 2010

Stage wise I would really ban Halberd or Battlefield, best fox stages no if and or buts about it. I had to learn this the hard way.

Conviction · Jun 27, 2010

Stage Strike FD and BF, Ban Halberd. Take Fox to Lylat.

#HBC | Red Ryu · Jun 30, 2010

Funny how the spacies suck on Lylat.

I'll give this one more day before we move on.

Scabe · Jun 30, 2010

Yay for Red Ryu's taking over.

IYM! · Jun 30, 2010

Fox is to fast! in Fd i have troubles to hit him with my projectiles, but in BF no

Link have oportunity in Smash village?

Scabe · Jun 30, 2010

I guess Smashville is neutral between the two. I can't really see Link having any advantage or Fox having a disadvantage on Yoshi Island and Pokemon Stadium 1. So I'm not sure what a Fox would strike against us.

Conviction · Jul 2, 2010

I'd strike Yoshi's out of my own personal rage of the stage and strike PS1 to to make sure all ledges of the neutral we play on won't gay me.

IYM! · Jul 2, 2010

mm Pokemn stadium 2 is a weird stage, electrid and wind mode can give fox some adventages

Fuujin · Jul 2, 2010

lol 40-60 on Zelda

Scabe · Jul 2, 2010

Yeah need to fix that.

IYM! · Jul 3, 2010

BF have smaller kill sides, is easiest kill fox there for the side

Zelda 40:60???
i think 50:50

Link: Shaaa Aiaaa, Sheaaak (get back to the kitchen)

Huggles828 · Jul 3, 2010

All of those matchups came straight from this thread, but many of them are old and probably outdated, and many of them came during the turmoil of many of the Link mains not being on this board and it being unmoderated, so it was hard to wade through all the spam. I wouldn't really trust anything prior to when Scabe and ToZ were modded.

IYM! · Jul 5, 2010

an important point agains fox is our Dair, we can use it to kill fox when he try to come back with his fox ilusion. The strong of the Dair + the speed of fox sideB = a early kill

looks like the inertia of fox ilusion do a major Knockback in our attack

other think fox is not a small character, we can use our Zair to space him and to stop his arial attacks in the air

the fox laser is a weaknes, his laser dont do knockback and have a ending lag, also his laser cancel isnt a dangerous move after all, we can close him and attack

is "some" easy predict when fox will use his U-Samsh. when Link will be in 110%, fox will try to do his attack- BE CAREFULL-

he can gimp us very easy when we try to come back at the stage with his reflector, and throw the boomerang is not a very good idea . but our spin atak have a little of priority, make a good use of it.

i think this match up is 35-65 (fox favor)

#HBC | Red Ryu · Jul 5, 2010

Fuujin said:
lol 40-60 on Zelda

I go with what people agree on, even though at the time I was saying 50-50 at the worst for Link.

Edit: Also Captain Falcon is a gogo.

Zeallyx · Jul 5, 2010

55-45 Link's advantage.

Link has more options.

He has projectiles, range and handy advanced techs.

But, as link is a very crappy char (like falcon) all falcon kneeds is his speed and gimping advantage, to bring this matchup to nearly equal.

But link has the edge, even if it is slightly.

lordhelmet · Jul 5, 2010

I disagree with 2Knee a bit on this one. Although Link's advantage is agreeable, I find it 55-45 Falcon, and it's only Link's favor if you're playing on wifi.

Link's projectile game is not that good. The only projectile that gives us trouble is Zair, but with Falcon's mobility (and shield) we can get around it. Link can't kill Falcon. We should be getting to 180% every stock. Fsmash? SDIable. Usmash? SDIable. Dair? Slow and predictable. The only way Falcon should be getting killed is with an up tilt or maybe a jab lock shenanigan if the player happens to miss a tech.

Link is slow and practically combo bait for Falcon. Although both character's DPS is about the same in the match-up, Falcon kills Link much much earlier. F-throw>flub>uair>edgehog anyone?

55-45 Falcon's favor.

Darky-Sama · Jul 5, 2010

Majority of the people on our boards felt that the ratio was 50:50. Although Link has tons of options via projectile play, Falcon is barely limited by it whatsoever and *should be* abusing his speed (as well as being trigger happy with his shield) to keep within Link's comfort zone at all times.

From my knowledge, the best option Link has for safely pressuring Falcon's approaches would be his Zair. Auto canceling a Zair into a turn around Bair is surprisingly useful for keeping Falcon pressured compared to the rest of Link's projectile game.

I'll add the rest of my reasoning later.

Zeallyx · Jul 5, 2010

lordhelmet said:
I disagree with 2Knee a bit on this one. Although Link's advantage is agreeable, I find it 55-45 Falcon, and it's only Link's favor if you're playing on wifi.

Link's projectile game is not that good. The only projectile that gives us trouble is Zair, but with Falcon's mobility (and shield) we can get around it. Link can't kill Falcon. We should be getting to 180% every stock. Fsmash? SDIable. Usmash? SDIable. Dair? Slow and predictable. The only way Falcon should be getting killed is with an up tilt or maybe a jab lock shenanigan if the player happens to miss a tech.

Link is slow and practically combo bait for Falcon. Although both character's DPS is about the same in the match-up, Falcon kills Link much much earlier. F-throw>flub>uair>edgehog anyone?

55-45 Falcon's favor.

Using escapable (as in, depend on the link player) 'combo's' in falcon's advantage, is misunderstanding MU discussions.

Link has more options, plus the other things I listed (range: Zair, for example, and projectiles: Bombs, gale boomerang and arrows.), makes this in links advantage.

And as both falcon's and link's kill moves are hard to land, that doesnt really help either of the characters.

lordhelmet · Jul 5, 2010

ToKneeOrNotToKnee said:
Using escapable (as in, depend on the link player) 'combo's' in falcon's advantage, is misunderstanding MU discussions.

Link has more options, plus the other things I listed (range: Zair, for example, and projectiles: Bombs, gale boomerang and arrows.), makes this in links advantage.

And as both falcon's and link's kill moves are hard to land, that doesnt really help either of the characters.

Well "at the top level of play" the Falcon player will SDI fsmash and usmash.

Falcon lives longer than Link because his recovery isn't 100% garbage. Link can gimp Falcon, but Falcon does it 10x better. And yes, Link's camping is annoying but with Falcon's mobility it's not enough to push the ratio in Link's favor.

Edit:

Just watch Haze **** Izaw on Willz's channel, Izaw obviously knows the MU and he still got wrecked.

Game One

HyL! · Jul 5, 2010

0-100 Falcon's advantage
Pr00fz h3r3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLHOYnrI42c

Haze~ · Jul 5, 2010

Alot of jabs ofcourse, i dont even go for the grab if i dont have to , just jab until hes out and then jump in with a spaced uair or something>jabs . Being fast is really important cause link can easily combo you if your slacking , so always fastfall after areals, juggling link can be tricky too , mainly cause of his dair that is fast and strong as ****. just be smart and if you see him dair spam when he is in the air you could just wait for him to come down and punish, or uair him in the startuplag of the dair or knee him from the side if ur feeling lucky. do the same thing with his zair , you can be fast enough to uair or nair before the zair even comes out. MU is pretty even 55-45 link cause its harder for falcon to space link than it is for link to space falcon.

mlorenzo · Jul 5, 2010

I agree with Falcon having the advantage in this matchup. We can go around Link projectiles and Link boomerang help falcon more than it hurts him. Falcon has the knee drop on Link. Link is easy to gimp and Falcon can also cancel all the projectiles with the jab. The disadvantage that Falcon have is that Link has disjointed hitboxes, and Link zair is pain to deal. So is either 55-45 or 50-50.

Scabe · Jul 5, 2010

Wow you guys are amazing. Thanks alot for your input. I'll post my thoughts like when it's not 5am D:

Zeallyx · Jul 5, 2010

lordhelmet said:
Well "at the top level of play" the Falcon player will SDI fsmash and usmash.

Falcon lives longer than Link because his recovery isn't 100% garbage. Link can gimp Falcon, but Falcon does it 10x better. And yes, Link's camping is annoying but with Falcon's mobility it's not enough to push the ratio in Link's favor.

Edit:

Just watch Haze **** Izaw on Willz's channel, Izaw obviously knows the MU and he still got wrecked.

Game One

Those aren't link's only kill moves.

And a matchup doesnt revolve around offstage play, and thus, this is link's advantage.

And no one 'gets wrecked' in this matchup if both play half decent.
Haze is (probably) simply a better brawl player than Izaw is.

Haze~ said:
MU is pretty even 55-45 link cause its harder for falcon to space link than it is for link to space falcon.

This^ (among other reasons I listed.)

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