Rematch - A hypothetical remake discussion.

Grim Tuesday · Nov 12, 2010

Are you kidding Battlecow? The ledges actually add *gaspshockhorror* STRATEGY to recovering!

You know, actually having to aim the recovery at the right height and everything rather than sliding up the wall.

Battlecow · Nov 12, 2010

It makes your recovery more predictable and harder to execute, and thus worse. Ness has options- like his crazy 45 degree angle thingy- on stages with ledges, and he can be just the tiniest bit unpredictable when he can slide. If you have to aim it at a certain angle, you're even easier to gimp than usual. There's no strategy to it; it simply adds a couple pounds of salt and some lemon juice to the gaping hole in Ness' recovery's abdomen.

So yeah, fewer options, in this case, means less strategy, not more.

The strategy is now "die." instead of... well... die.

Grim Tuesday · Nov 12, 2010

Adds difficulty in recovering, ease in edge-guarding.

dandan · Nov 12, 2010

GrimFandango said:
Adds difficulty in recovering, ease in edge-guarding.

it adds arbitrary difficulty, no reason for it to work the way it does, DI into it = death, the mechanics of it are just not there.

also, you do not need a lot of help in edge guard anyhow, it is not like it is a complicated task, this just makes it stupidly easy.

Battlecow · Nov 13, 2010

Note well that such edges exist in Congo as well.

My main argument against its current Switzerland status.

Sempiternity · Nov 13, 2010

Recovering is already hard enough in this game... why make it harder!?

Blade689 · Nov 13, 2010

ledges allow for approaches from bellow, without ledges samus's recovery game is completely gimped too. just because ness's recovery is bad does not mean the option should be forfeit. I suggest that PK thunder acts like Melee and it can't be taken out from contact. If that was true, I would be willing to give up range for that power. Maybe the PK thunder can only pass through bodies if your in the air.... so it can't be abused as a duck stun attack on stage with continues control. that sounds bad *** actually, I want that mechanic right now.... but not enough to play melee for it lol.

Grim Tuesday · Nov 13, 2010

How about PK Thunder can still be blocked, but it doesn't put Ness into special fall?

blaze3927 · Nov 13, 2010

invincibilty frames at the end of his recovery.

Sempiternity · Nov 13, 2010

Yeah, at least at the point where the hitboxes disappear and he sort of turns over. Invincibility until he's able to land or grab a ledge.

ryuu seika · Nov 13, 2010

Name: Kirby
Stage: Dreamland
Costumes:
P1 - Kirby
P2 - Keeby
P3 - Blue Kirby
P4 - Red Kirby
Party - (?)(Something that doesn't interfere with hats)
Specials
^B - Final Cutter (Works as before)
0B - Inhale (Works as before)
0Ba - Star Shot (Works as before)
0Bv/b - Copy (Works like before but with added hats for newcomers)
vB - Stone (Works as before)
Air Moves
^a - Twinkle Star (Works as before)
0a - Foot Extension (Works as before)
<a - Twin Back Kick (Works as before)
>a - Forward Drill Kick (Works as before)
va - Downward Drill Kick (Works as before)
Ground Moves
^a - Upward Back Kick (Works like before but will be less broken after the planned hitbox redux)
0a - Punch Punch Rapid Punch (Works as before)
</>a - Forward Spin Kick (Works as before)
va - Low Kick (Works as before)
^A - Backflip Kick (Works as before)
</>A - Lunging Foot Etension (Works as before)
vA - Foot Extension Spin (Works as before)
>>A - Halting Handstand (Works as before)
Throws
[R] - Grab (Works as before)
>R - Offscreen Jump to Body Slam (Works as before)
<R - Backward Overhead Toss (Works as before)
Ledge Moves
0 - Recovery Flip Kick (Works as before)
Miscellaneous Fixes
None

3mmanu3lrc · Nov 15, 2010

Sempiternity said:
Yeah, at least at the point where the hitboxes disappear and he sort of turns over. Invincibility until he's able to land or grab a ledge.

Well if what you'r trying to make is a perfect character, then give link a pikachu's recovery if perfection is what you want....
'cuz actually, link is able to teleport from temple to temple in the Legend of Zelda Ocarine of Time. xD

ryuu seika · Nov 15, 2010

Seeing as Megaman seems to be a popular character choice, how would you lot feel about Gravityman's Domain as his home stage?

It would effectively be two FD's, one at the top, one at the bottom, with an invisible line between where gravity changes. A double jump would take you just past the line but regular jumping wouldn't.

Thoughts?

Sempiternity · Nov 15, 2010

3mmanu3lrc said:
Well if what you'r trying to make is a perfect character, then give link a pikachu's recovery if perfection is what you want....
'cuz actually, link is able to teleport from temple to temple in the Legend of Zelda Ocarine of Time. xD

Well, not perfect, but at least a little something to buff that period where Ness can't do anything after the electricity ends. Ness can't really even sweetspot effectively because he's doing summersaults in the air before grabbing. Even when you do sweetspot, he doesn't nab the ledge right away.

Surri-Sama · Nov 15, 2010

Ness CAN sweet spot perfectly...Good luck doing it consistently though

I try it every now and then. I get it some times, but more often then not i smash ness' face off the ledge and he falls in anguish

Sempiternity · Nov 15, 2010

ohwait

I meant not sweetspotting like a magnet to the ledge, but the timing and distance sort of sweetspot. Like what you'd do with Samus or Falcon. Maybe not a sweetspot per se, but an otherwise perfect recovery.

NESS SUCKS

Surri-Sama · Nov 15, 2010

Well what im talking about is using PK thunder AT the ledge and grab it instantly (or you are going up a wall the perfect distance so you just grab the edge).

I dont know the "technical" side of how the first one is done but i know you can do it.

Battlecow · Nov 15, 2010

ryuu seika said:
Seeing as Megaman seems to be a popular character choice, how would you lot feel about Gravityman's Domain as his home stage?

It would effectively be two FD's, one at the top, one at the bottom, with an invisible line between where gravity changes. A double jump would take you just past the line but regular jumping wouldn't.

Thoughts?

Sounds strange as all get out, but I'd play in it for the lulz.

Wouldn't be tourney legal though.

ryuu seika · Nov 16, 2010

I don't know, if Rainbow Ride can be counter pick in Melee, I don't see what's wrong with that being CP in 64. Yes, it would mess with gameplay but so do most counter pick stages as far as I can tell.

It certainly wouldn't be a popular stage on the tournament side of things but I don't see it being hugely benificial to any particular character. Like most of my stage ideas though, it was thought up because it's simple, iconic and wacky.

#HBC | ѕoup · Nov 16, 2010

make rainbow ride ergo it's original concept in super mario 64. meaning perhaps just the huge ship.

ryuu seika · Nov 16, 2010

Rainbow Ride wouldn't be representative of the N64 level without unexpected movement and far too many stage kills.

#HBC | ѕoup · Nov 18, 2010

just thought of something:

If there was a remake, make it so you can tether grab mid-air and perhaps speed them up.

also, don't give mario his cape, i hate that cape.

King Funk · Nov 18, 2010

ryuu seika said:
Well what would you call it?

And Smashville isn't bad but is too recent.

Omg it's a Brawl stage. It's too recent. It can't... be... good.

/sarcasm

Smashville is a great stage in my opinion just because of its fantastic simplicity. A flat stage but with a moving platform that moves horizontally. It's the most balanced stage in Brawl and most characters can do well on it because the platform is a refuge against excessive ground based camping, a way of mixing your options up and a potential saviour for recoveries. I rarely found anyone that didn't like this stage.

If you like Smash 64's overall simplicity, then there's no reason you can't like that stage. It's pretty much one of the best examples of basic yet well-made stages in smash.

If I had to make a list of my favorite stages it'd be:
- Dreamland (Smash 64)
- Pokemon Stadium 1 (Melee)
- Fountain of Dreams (Melee)
- Yoshi's Island (Melee)
- Smashville (Brawl)

If they ever added stages from the other games to a new version of Smash 64, I'd love to have Smashville or any of the Melee stages I mentioned.

Surri-Sama · Nov 18, 2010

I dont get why people like pokemon stadium. Personally i always found that stage annoying at best D:

ryuu seika · Nov 18, 2010

Soupamario said:
make it so you can tether grab mid-air

So broken air grabs only for those with tethers? Depends how broken they turn out to be but it seems like a good idea not to give them to everyone.

Soupamario said:
also, don't give mario his cape, i hate that cape.

I'd go one step further and say "don't add Fspecials"

King Funk said:
Omg it's a Brawl stage. It's too recent. It can't... be... good..

As explained before, my issue with Smashville's addition was based on a misunderstanding. I had thought that Animal Crossing was a DS game and thus not release before the gamecube (a restriction in place to stop this becoming Melee or losing that N64 game feel).
Seeing as it was actually released on the N64 3 years earlier in Japan, I have no issue with Smashville's inclusion anymore.

King Funk said:
If I had to make a list of my favorite stages it'd be:
- Dreamland (Smash 64)
- Pokemon Stadium 1 (Melee)
- Fountain of Dreams (Melee)
- Yoshi's Island (Melee)
- Smashville (Brawl)

I hate Y'sI Melee. I really hate it.

Dreamland is my favourite though, Smashville seems nice, FoD seems a little lackluster but I can't fault it and, if I liked Pokemon (or was even indefferent towards it) PS1 would likely be a favourite of mine too as it's so simple, yet so iconic.

Sempiternity · Nov 18, 2010

I'd say no for forward specials, too. Too make B-moves I use in this game have me holding forward to keep momentum or other wise improve the attack. I treat Link's boomerang like a smash attack, and I'd be doing whatever the F-B-move is all too often. They did do something right, though, by switching Link's boomerang to F-B in subsequent games.

Other things like Falcon Punch and Jiggly's Pound become harder and less effective to use when recovering, because you must forfeit some momentum to go back to a neutral stick position. Same applies for using projectiles when recovering (e.g. Mario & Luigi).

ryuu seika · Nov 18, 2010

How do you lot feel about adding in the one Brawl feature I really liked? Don't worry, it's not something stupid like tripping. Infact, it's not even a gameplay feature and will not affect over 90% of the cast.

What I am refering to is the improvement of Yoshi's UpB. In Brawl, unlike in the other games, the upwards motion of the throw carries Yoshi upward slightly. It's not much but it makes his recovery that much more effective and makes his egg move more usable at a begginer level.

Sempiternity · Nov 18, 2010

I actually liked that addition. I always felt that Yoshi needed something to buff his recovery. Hell, I'm pretty sure that using the egg before your second jump actually gets rid of it like Samus's bombs...

It would be nice to include the little lift, but also to make it usable before the second jump. It would make recovering easier if you could chuck an egg and then jump up to the ledge.

I really don't know if it does kill your second jump, but that seems familiar.

ryuu seika · Nov 18, 2010

Yeah, jump loss seems bad but that's presumably to stop people going egg jump egg for extra recovery or something.

It was the one character change I liked in Brawl and it seemed like a very good thing that Yoshi should have had from the beggining.

Grim Tuesday · Nov 18, 2010

King Funk said:
It's the most balanced stage in Brawl.

Actually, that tile first belongs to Pokemon Stadium 2, and then Smashville.

ryuu seika · Nov 18, 2010

PS2 is awful. You play as Kirby and you can't land, even when fastfalling it takes ages. It seriously wrecked me.

Grim Tuesday · Nov 18, 2010

Erm... lol?

That is ONE phase of the FIVE PHASE STAGE.

It lasts, what, 20 seconds?

And why is not being able to land bad?

ryuu seika · Nov 18, 2010

Because I'm not used to Brawl and its air combos. It's bad enough trying to land when I need to normally but when it suddenly becomes nigh on impossible I seriously struggle to do anything in the game.

Grim Tuesday · Nov 18, 2010

Erm... air dodge?

Also don't jump around or whatever is actually causing you to be in the air?

ryuu seika · Nov 18, 2010

Name: Fox
Stage: Sector Z
Costumes:
P1 - Flight Suit
P2 - Orange and Purple Suit
P3 - Blue and Orange Suit
P4 - Green Red and Yellow Suit
Party - James McCloud Shades (?)
Specials
^B - Fire Fox (Works as before)
0B - Laser (Works as before)
vB - Deflector Shield (Works as before)
Air Moves
^a - Backward Flip (Works as before)
0a - Basic Kick (Works as before)
<a - Twin Back Kick (Works as before)
>a - Mini Forward Drill Kick (Works as before)
va - Backwards Split Kick (Works as before)
Ground Moves
^a - Upward Kick (Works like before but will be less broken after the planned hitbox redux)
0a - Punch Punch Rapid Kick (Works as before)
</>a - Forward High Kick (Works as before)
va - Low Tail Spin (Works as before)
^A - Backflip Kick (Works as before)
</>A - Lunging Forward Drill Kick (Works as before)
vA - Splits (Works as before)
>>A - Small Flying Kick (Works as before)
Throws
[R] - Grab (Works as before)
>R - Foward Throw (Works as before)
<R - Backward Roll Toss (Works as before)
Ledge Moves
0 - Recovery Mini Drill Kick (Works as before)
Miscellaneous Fixes
None

asianaussie · Nov 18, 2010

in that case, don't make hasty judgments on things

yoshi's recovery at the moment is already boss, adding an up-b is just adding an extra period of vulnerability at the end where any competent edgeguarder would own you

the only times it could come in handy are if you're playing friendlies or if you just got smacked ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL the way from one side to the other and the opponent can't make it to the edge to edgeguard you...

#HBC | ѕoup · Nov 19, 2010

i find brawl's recovery system so redundant, you shouldn't be able to just magically grab from what 2-3 Ft. from the ledge?

i think that extra ledge grab boost makes yoshi's upb look more stable, but if it were smash64, you'd probably just get ***** like a red-headed stepchild, akin to what cheeseball said.

also, if i thought about it, mid-air tether grabbing would be nice, but when i play a brawl samus, all they do is spam z-air and expect me to approach them;not cool.

ballin4life · Nov 19, 2010

LOL at "***** like a red-headed stepchild"

th3kuzinator · Nov 19, 2010

Wow just thinking about it, there is a z-air in the other smash games.

Vocabulary +1

ryuu seika · Nov 19, 2010

Suggested so far:

Characters:
Bowser
Mewtwo
King Dedede (not convinced he's a good idea)
Pit (maybe but with a different Up B please)
Peach
Meowth (seems crazy but could work)
Zelda (not sold on it and transformations in 64?)
Megaman
Hector (not well known enough IMO)
Mathew (same, plus I think these two violate the "must have appeared before the gamecube" rule)
Metaknight (stop whining about him people, they nerfed Kirby in the later games and they could easyly do the same to MK)
Marth
Sonic (he'd need a lot of work to fit in)
Wario
Lucas (why?)
Young Link (why?)
Simon Belmont

Stages:
Meta Crystal (not worth messing with)
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville (don't see any reason why not)
Onett
Big Blue
Realm of Nothingness
Twilight Town
Castle Oblivion
Wario Ware Inc. (wouldn't fit in)
Castlevania
Forest Temple
Castle Seige (eww.)
Flying Battery Zone
Gravityman's Domain
Yoshi's Story melee (eww.)
Pokemon Stadium 1 (seems fitting)
Fountain of Dreams (a bit bland)

Other Additions:
Ness recovery upgrade
Minor recovery aspect to Yoshi's UpB
Birthday hats for Pikachu and DK
Ariel grabs (seems broken)
Ariel tether grabs (maybe workable)
Optional tether grabs
Tether grabs only at certain distance
Grab "techs" (bad idea IMO)
Kirby Utilt nerf

Rematch - A hypothetical remake discussion.

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