Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread

Darn I got found out.

Hello dguy6789.

lol ur right guize, mario is an impregnible steel wall for sonic. GIVZ UP NOAWWWWW!!!

Whatup Umby!

Greenie's How to Win Recommendations:

There are a few thing I'll detail in general point form that I find general rules for gaining an advantage over Mario. Some you will be able to apply easily, because they complent Sonics playstyle and some will put out of your comfort zone, because its essentailly opposite to what Sonic is good at.

-keep it fast paced: Mario's as stated, love to slow down the game to a pace suitable for them and love that degree of control with their fireballs spam sessions. So keeping it running at a Sonic suitable pace (mega fast) can really take away a Marios thinking time and racking up damage will become easier. and itll frustrate the heck out of them.

-this having been said, play carefully: this is where playing a smart Sonic will come in handy. If you can play at the speed of light but compromise this by taking hits from fireballs and aerials then you are going to get ko'ed before you can even throw out a side taunt. So being able to play at a reasonable pace, while avoiding fireballs and his aerials it'll really put you ahead in the game

-keep it to the ground: mario aerial game is very very good. That u-air will slaughter. So try and keep it on the ground. Sonics tilts outrange and come out faster than anything mario can do effectively on the ground. So space your self and put little bits of damage on this way. If you get stuck in mario's aerials, spring out of their and spot dodge down (or if u feel confident, dair). Another alternative is to space yourself after recieving a hit and get him with the range on our b-air, but this is very situational

-gimping: at least try. There is a bit of dispute over how much sonic can gimp mario. But imo i think we are more than capable. Mario's recovery is extremely average and isn't hard to HA from either underneath or a jump out and HA to whack them off the side. From above can be risky because the odds are they will super jump punch before you can get a chance. Also if you can run off that edge after a d-throw its possible to gimp with a double fair. Its all about pickin the right gimp for the right situation. (dont go overboard and kill urself)

-other quick things: shake up your approaches. dash attack is fairly safe as it is grounded. spin shot or spindashhop depending on what kind of fireball pressure you got comin at ya. last thing to note is dont b scared to use aerials to catch them unaware. sonic is fast and has the possibility of throwing one out before mario even thinks about gettin his hi priority move out.

When you are on a roll, roll with it when you are getting smashed, back up and think creatively
Here's a video showing the kind of style i am referring to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pnybZbFVt6c&feature=related
It isn't a victory for Sonic, but there are a few things i would have done differently. But he showcases the ground game well.

Eh, I guess it's forgivable since this was April, but man, that Mario sucked lol.

needs more recent gameplay footage! :O

I was playing against samboner (Fox/Luigi main) and his brother (Mario main?) earlier, which is kinda fortunate for this matchup. Keep in mind that Mario's U-smash punishes too well, and you don't want to be in a spotdodge>d-smash war against Mario, so instead, if you end up spotdodging at the same time, jump out of the dodge or run away. If you want to attack, use tilts.

In the rounds I played against his brother, I 2-stocked him on the first game and barely lost (both of us were down to the killing hit and I got landinglag-usmashed XD) on our second. When I played against sam, who used Mario for a round, he airjuggled me in BF Luigi-style. Like really, I thought I was fighting Luigi for the first 20 seconds or so until I saw him charge FLUDD lol.

edit1:
Really, most of my damage on them were grab/throw/spindashpunishment-based, so I didn't really take too much advantage of matchup-specific traits, except pshielding fireballs and spotdodging/grabbing the followup.

edit2:
Also, I couldn't really go out there and gimp them since they DI well enough to avoid silly things like low-trajectory hits out of B-air/F-air (pretty pointless since you end up sending them back onto the stage - unless you're planning on mindgaming a smash on their landing)

Maybe it's just my personal style, or because they play well enough to not get gimped, but most of my kills were straight-up KO's using charged smashes to punish spot dodges lol.

yer i hate not being able to find a decent recorded match where both are very good players. o well. i'll chuck ur info in how to win as well. i guess it all depends on the mario?
thanks mate! (anyone who can find a better mario vs sonic vid will deserve a medal)

edit: how to win could use a little more filling out. i'll do take on some marios tonight, but if anyone els can help, its appreciated.
other than that its just recommended stages and a ratio which i am pretty sure will be 55:45 mario..

dude, all u have to do... is wait for an aerial, use up-b so he goes up ona spring, and then uair him and he dead. or u could even ASC him.

I'll try to play BO X7 later today. He's a decent Mario who plays online and goes to tournaments. We had some pretty close matches at the last live event we went to. It'll either show what to do or what not to do.

i just dont see how mario is even as hard as luigi or wario.

you guys talked about fireballs so much i wanted to stab my eyes out... they really arent that big of a frekain problem... if he shoots em low, then jmp over them, if he shoots em high, run under them, either way... spot dodge? p-sheild? fair eat? and actually im pretty sure u can always time a SD/SC to go under them.. no matter how they are fired. its just not a big deal seriously.... wolfs lazers and pits arrows are WAY more annoying than marios fireballs.... arent they too slow anyway?

on the other attacks... well mario is kinda similare to luigi and wario.. but i think wario and luigi have better aerials right? but mario isnt too far from them in that respect even if he is better.... so what gives? IMO mari = even matchup. (tho it would make sense for them to make mario better in a NINTENDO product right? lol)

spam dtilt as an approach vs fireballs, it cancels them out while you move forward lol

speaking of warios... just spent an hour playing one. it went ok considering sonic has a pretty big disadvantage there. won a couple ...
It is an even matchup, but because Mario has that projectile and a largely better aerial game its best to put it nuetral but slightly in his favour. Hence the 55:45. I'm off to bed guys.
Cyas later.

R4ZE said:

i just dont see how mario is even as hard as luigi or wario.

you guys talked about fireballs so much i wanted to stab my eyes out... they really arent that big of a frekain problem... if he shoots em low, then jmp over them, if he shoots em high, run under them, either way... spot dodge? p-sheild? fair eat? and actually im pretty sure u can always time a SD/SC to go under them.. no matter how they are fired. its just not a big deal seriously.... wolfs lazers and pits arrows are WAY more annoying than marios fireballs.... arent they too slow anyway?

on the other attacks... well mario is kinda similare to luigi and wario.. but i think wario and luigi have better aerials right? but mario isnt too far from them in that respect even if he is better.... so what gives? IMO mari = even matchup. (tho it would make sense for them to make mario better in a NINTENDO product right? lol)

Click to expand...

This is true. Fireballs aren't that hard to dodge, and his aerial game isn't as good as Luigi's.

R4ZE said:

i just dont see how mario is even as hard as luigi or wario.

you guys talked about fireballs so much i wanted to stab my eyes out... they really arent that big of a frekain problem... if he shoots em low, then jmp over them, if he shoots em high, run under them, either way... spot dodge? p-sheild? fair eat? and actually im pretty sure u can always time a SD/SC to go under them.. no matter how they are fired. its just not a big deal seriously.... wolfs lazers and pits arrows are WAY more annoying than marios fireballs.... arent they too slow anyway?

on the other attacks... well mario is kinda similare to luigi and wario.. but i think wario and luigi have better aerials right? but mario isnt too far from them in that respect even if he is better.... so what gives? IMO mari = even matchup. (tho it would make sense for them to make mario better in a NINTENDO product right? lol)

Click to expand...

Fireballs aren't used alone. You jump, and you're begging for an aerial fight (you want this against Mario??), you shield, and he'll grab you. etc.

They aren't as big of a problem unless Mario has the momentum, but it's not something to underestimate.

im just saying.. its not even as bad as fighting wario.... i dont see whats wrong with fighting mario in the air... u guys ever tried using HA in the air? =) spring? i mean.. u can definately beat mraio in the air, u just have to do things other than rush straight into swinging sword. (but that should be 2nd nature to any sonic player anyway)

oh yea and on a wario note.. sonic rly does have a cg on wario. but i dont think any1 beleives me on this, me and my friends will have to make a video of it.

its not that aerial game cant happen with mario, its that its harder. Tenki once said in another thread that anything is possible in brawl, the game is balanced, but when its stated that something gives one character a advantage, we are saying its harder to do a certain thing to that char.
seriously goin to bed now. l8as

darkNES386 said:

I'll try to play BO X7 later today. He's a decent Mario who plays online and goes to tournaments. We had some pretty close matches at the last live event we went to. It'll either show what to do or what not to do.

Click to expand...

He told me you had a really good Sonic.

If any of you play online, I wouldn't mind having a few Mario vs Sonic matches. I can record too, so I'll get them up on youtube for matchup reference. EC only tho plz

Hay Matador, I'd like to play you sometime later =D

Don't record me though ;__; I'm a ghost.

Greenstreet said:

Tenki once said in another thread that anything is possible in brawl, the game is balanced, but when its stated that something gives one character a advantage, we are saying its harder to do a certain thing to that char.

Click to expand...

I did?

New fad: That's what Tenki said.

Hay Matador, I'd like to play you sometime later =D

Don't record me though ;__; I'm a ghost.

Greenstreet said:

Tenki once said in another thread that anything is possible in brawl, the game is balanced, but when its stated that something gives one character a advantage, we are saying its harder to do a certain thing to that char.

Click to expand...

I did?

That's the second time I've heard that I said something that I didn't. `.`;

Really, I try to find ideas for things but I'm definitely not the source of all-positive quotage.

Tenki said:

Hay Matador, I'd like to play you sometime later =D

Don't record me though ;__; I'm a ghost.

Click to expand...

Cool, you can just relay what you thought of the matchup to the folks over here. I'll go ahead and do the same for the Marios.

Matador said:

He told me you had a really good Sonic.

If any of you play online, I wouldn't mind having a few Mario vs Sonic matches. I can record too, so I'll get them up on youtube for matchup reference. EC only tho plz

Click to expand...

Well... if you want to, I'll be available in a couple hours... if you have aim or something we can figure out when we can play.

Well, know I am going to have to find those quotes aren't I.

EDIT: Lession Learnt: I don't have the patients to go through many threads in search of a tiny quote.

Recommended Stages:

Final Destination: Gives Mario a bit of free reign on the fireballs, but generally will be more advantagous to Sonics scooting about strategy

Delfino: Plat forms are at a great height for aerials from underneath and they break up fireball games.

Castle Seige: Platforms, curves, statues that get in the way of fireballs as well as 1 part which is pretty much FD.

Real quick analysis....real quick

+Luigis Mansion: Takes out mario air game but makes dodging fireballs awkward

Aight, so, when's the next char starting? =O

Man this thread is Too Slow Xp

Matador and I played a lot last night... he won a majority. I'm feeling like this is a 45-55 Mario favor. Useful tips I found were using utilt and uair from short hops to help shutdown Mario's aerial rush game. Mario's floatyness makes it very difficult for Sonic to actually string stuff together. This is definately a matchup where skill plays quite a factor. I'll upload some of our better matches later today.

I also heard that Tenki played Matador. Tenki and I play very different styles, yet neither of us could really have our way with Matador consistently

Ok cool. Well what stages did you win on? And was there a reason?

@aeghrur: DK will get started probably Saturday or Sunday, which is tomorrow or the next day for me.

Against Matador's mario it really didn't matter much which stage we played on. We both could utilize the platforms and Mario's fireballs aren't much of a concern for stages like FD. Perhaps Matador could comment more on this, or after watching the videos I"ll be uploading I can say more from there. Really though, I didn't feel like this was any one stage where I had a massive advantage. We mostly played on neutrals. Take what you can from the videos when I get them up.

Matador said:

I just finished matches with both Tenki and darkNES. Both are ridiculously good Sonics with very different playstyles.

vs Tenki:

I had to cut these short due to domestic complications, but suffice it to say that out of the 5 Mario vs Sonic matches we played, I can pretty much conclude that the matchup isn't adv. Mario. Fireballs are too easily powershielded by Sonic to control the match like they should in theory. That hop during Sonic's sideB that allows him to go through fireballs also punishes the ending lag of it even if done from a distance because of how quickly Sonic can capitalize off of the lag. The damage you'd eat often isn't worth it either. I don't find approach for Sonic a problem at all.

Though Sonic's movement speed can easily help him land a pivotted Fsmash, Sonic's KO power is definitely a problem, even unstaled. I honestly don't believe I would've won any of the matches if I wasn't KOing Sonic at near 80% from an Fsmash.

I find that edgeguarding is severely hampered in this matchup, but still semi-effective against Sonic. Fludd mostly works when Sonic recovers lower because he cannot sweetspot his upB, so it'd at least give you time enough to get close enough to land an aerial of Usmash during the Fludd. Caping Sonic's sideB recovery doesn't gimp him, but makes his recovery a little more restricted and predictable. More often than not, however, it isn't worth it. Sonic can gimp Mario much easier than vice versa.

vs DarkNES:

I got to play many more matches against DarkNES than against Tenki, so I got a much better analysis of his Sonic. It seemed that he used more tactics better suited for fighting Mario overall, and made the matchup even more difficult to pull a victory.

His more frequent use of tilts made approach (even Bair WoPs, and spaced Nairs) very difficult. He also powershielded fireballs and put me in terrible positions for Dthrow techchasing. Comboing was near impossible because of his upB, though I find that the predictable Dair trajectory afterward made for pretty decent punishing even though it autocancels. Grounded, I got *****. In the air, I was able to gain some headway, and string together a few combos. Sonic's Bair also screwed approach because of its priority and range.

Again, I only think I won at all ver DarkNES because of how easy it is to KO Sonic with an up-angled Fsmash. Actually landing it was difficult and risky because of the ending lag, but it KOs at 90% unstaled on average; around 80% from the edge.

I believe even more firmly that the matchup is 50:50.

Click to expand...

I forgot to try out Luigi's mansion to see if it truly made things more difficult for Mario.

Of the matches I played against you and Tenki, I definitely found Lylat the most difficult and Battlefield the most comfortable to fight you guys on. Lylat made for easy Bair/upB gimping underneath the stage and has a relatively high ceiling which dampens our Usmash effectiveness but not necessarily Uair KO effectiveness. Fireballs aren't as good here because of the stage and Down-angled Fsmash offstage is harder to punish Sonic's upB when recovering low because the stage often tilts away from it.

Sonic can also (potentially) abuse his Uair and Bair from below the platforms and make punishing virtually impossible for Mario.

Greenstreet said:

Ok cool. Well what stages did you win on? And was there a reason?

@aeghrur: DK will get started probably Saturday or Sunday, which is tomorrow or the next day for me.

Click to expand...

Ah, mkay, awesome. =O Sorry if I sound like a jerk, lol.

ok well i want it to start on the top of page six... so yer... itll start in 5 posts time.

Greenstreet said:

ok well i want it to start on the top of page six... so yer... itll start in 5 posts time.

Click to expand...

LoL... I'm still on page 2. Suggestion: Make sure if you're going to list where certain character discussions begin... you go by post number instead of "page." Post numbers never change in a thread, but your settings determine how many posts are on each page.

Edit: 4 posts time now =)

Yeah. It's like that for Mario, but I will probly be able to keep an updated link to the page certain characters are on. Even if i have to change it every once in a while. So you still supporting nuetral darkNES? And figure out any working techniques that help out?

where on earth are these 80% KO numbers coming from. is marios fsmash stronger than the snake utilt now?

ummm what numbers r u referring to?

EDIT: I played matador as well, although the lag really limited my play style, i reverted back to basic to cope with it. Unfortunately he won most of the matches, but this having been said, they were all very close. It is confirmed that Lylat Cruise is advantage Sonic as I almost had a flawless victory on there.
P.S. Any aussie Marios that wanna play to reduce lag?

djbrowny said:

where on earth are these 80% KO numbers coming from. is marios fsmash stronger than the snake utilt now?

Click to expand...

From the edge of BF or FD, I was KOing Sonic between 80-89% with an unstaled, up-angled Fsmash. The numbers surprised me as well, but I'm most certainly not lying if that's what you're suggesting.

DK....Donkey Kong is HERE




Introduction

"Donkey Kong is the protagonist from the Donkey Kong series. In his first appearance, Donkey Kong, he was the antagonist of Mario, but he soon starred in his series of games which depicted him as the hero, though he remains a featured character in Mario spinoff games. He has appeared in all three Smash Bros. games to date."
He is a big fella, but this doesn't mean that Sonic can necessarily own over him like he is Bowser. He has powerful moves, powerful tilts and powerful throws. But we have a few things over him, like gimpability.

Behaviour:

-DK is pretty mobile. His run speed and air speed are both above average. And because Sonic isn't a projectile camper, he can't really stop DK from approaching with his B-air, which is fast and has huge range. - A2ZOMG

-DK's tilts are all fast and have crazy range, making it fairly unsafe to stay close to DK for a long period of time. His grab range is also very good, which speaks for itself really. His D-smash while a little unsafe to use comes out fast, and if you normal shield it will push you away a decent distance. A2ZOMG

-Dk can juggle fairly consistenly with his aerials if you don't pay attention, only a few hits from his u-air and b-airs will have give you an extra 40% like that. DK's know this. DK's abuse this.

-Where DK mind games come into play is with the Giant Punch.
When DK charges it up, every player in the world goes into Turtle on Crack Mode(tm). You run around being wildly defensive, trying to make DK waste the punch. DK wants you to freak out and get close and shield. That sets you up for a grab, and DK's grabs are ridiculously great. The <throw is going to send you off the level and is a potential killer. The >throw is of course the Cargo Hold and a perfect setup for either throwing you into the abyss, Kongocide or one of DK's 3 spikes while you're recovering.

-Terrydactyl

-Spot-dodge into Down smash will own Sonic's fair and most other short-hopped aerials. Mightn't be too commonly used by a DK, but you still have to consider this when approaching

-DK's play an odd style, it's neither offensive or defensive, it is simply reactive, they will act according to what you do almost completely. This is because of their blind spot perhaps, or laggy moves, but they'll react to what you do, so getting into patterns is very bad in this matchup.

-Spot dodging and air dodging- it'll happen alot, so learn to charge a fsmash to counter his spotdodge, or even u-tilt if you think your timing sucks.

Commonly Used Moves:

U-tilt: It's very ease for Dk to combo in and out of this move, and it is very quick with decent damage. Approaching DK from behind will result in Sonic being mashed by this. Enables effective juggling.

D-Smash: Comes out like lightning and it will hit you really far. DK's can use this after shielding/spot dodging your attacks and it will kill.

B-air: This is the other pain move. It sucks. COmes outfast and knocks back a decent distance for a b-air. Can be combo'ed with. Unexpected and good priority.

F-tilt: Owns pretty much any Sonic recovery and they'll pretty much spam it alot of match. Be careful not to get hit by hit as it'll rack up a couple of hits whichll be like 40% in no time.

Spot-dodge: DK's live off it, because they are so big, they'll use it heaps to avoid and counter attacks, and it works too.

How to Win:

When approaching from the front, just watch out for:

- 10-charged punches, since super armor will counter and destroy you. Also keep in mind if he charges his punch but isn't flashing. It's most likely a 9-charge punch - no super armor, but ungodly knockback.
- Up-B. It also has super armor (or is it invincibility frames? I think it changes depending on grounded/aerial up-B) during the beginning, so it can be used to counter and rack up some un-wanted damage. It IS possible to smash him or grab him out of it, but it's usually safer to wait until post-attack lag.
- Sakurai Combo. 'Nuff said. Too many times have I gone in, expecting DK to tilt or something so I'd tap shield, and as soon as I let go, get slammed into the ground...
But really, B-air/headbutt hurts your shield pretty badly too.
- Ground Slam - clangs with/outprioritizes SDR's.
- Grab. This is where you'll need 1337 teching skills. at 40%+, DK can cargo-grab you, walk off the edge, and stagespike you with a throw. Good luck on this one ;__;. Ripple also posted a video of what to do to people who get caught doing reflexive teching (throw them under the stage/away from it and lol as they airdodge). However, Sonic is rather safe from this since he has such a large recovery range.

-Tenki

You cant let DK breathe, but you also have to be aware of the super armor on some of his moves and the alarming speed of his tilts.

The fact is that even with good DI...a D-smash is gonna kill u @ 110%. D smash is nearly instant OOS. His up-tilt kills in the 160% range. His Up and Foward smash kill before 100%...so even though u can work him over with low knock back moves for obscene %....once it comes down to getting the kill things get alot tricker. The only thing I have reliably done is if I block a D-smash, I shield drop stutter step F-smash and it hits. That works rather reliably.

A big mistake that people make is assuming his smash attacks aren't safe. It's SONIC! DK can throw out F- smashes all he wants....whats he gonna die to a dash attack? Or an up-throw (Not until 200 with good DI)? or an up-smash? DK players have this logic....same as DDD....the risk vs reward is just so uneven.

The risk vs reward for his smash attacks is craaaaaaaaaaaaaaaazy. The risk is AT BEST sonic can get a grab. The reward is you do obscene knockback and probably kill your opponent before 100%.

-MalcomM

-I think that it comes down to approaching. When that ape jumps, be aware of his blindspot infront of him and f-air, itll rack up damage fairly well and even string into a HA, or an asc/sd.
Approaching with a SH'ed ASC could be disasterous from behind him, because of his tilts, so a SD is more advisable, do to it's priority frames in the beginning of the move. In spot dodge wars, it could even pay just to jab him out, if not escape, rather than try to beat him into a smash move.
With any styles of approach other than aerial (too an extent) DK will have a response. Ground approach/Ground pound ; ASC: u-tilt ; Spinshot/b-air.
So this is why it's important to be very different in your approaches, and make sure DK cannot predict what will happen next.
Play defensively in that you'll have to avoid DK's smashes if you want to stay alive for over 60%.


Like Dedede, rising/lagless B-airs can totally screw up your approach game. It's also one of DK's best approaches/spacing tools, and can even KO. A running P-shield can sometimes screw up his spacing if he's doing a falling B-air, and you can proceed to grab him out of it. It's much easier to do this on laggy landings, but I'm pretty sure you can grab him straight out of the aerial if you shield the attackbox.

-Tenki

If he's not Ground Pounding then aerials are probably the most effective way of approaching but still not great. F-tilt > All Sonic's approaches except for fair seemingly, SH fair was a life saver in this match-up.
His SH aerials (except for his fair which is awful) are decent GTFO attacks, with bair and uair having notably good priority.
-ROOOOY!

Recommended Stages:

LYLAT CRUISE: I'm not sure but i think this could be a good option. The curvature of the level will make DK jump higher when jumping across, making Sonics aerials easier to connect with. I just find this level flows better in this matchup.

LUIGI'S MANSION: Same reasons as Mario's it seems. It'll stop his great aerial game alot (coz he can barely fit in that house) but will make approaching a little more difficult for Sonic, but its nothing that cant b over come by SH ASC's.

NOT BATTLEFIELD: Again lol? I'd avoid Battlefield, I got ***** on it earlier. Battlefield really limits you to a ground approach only and considering DK's range, that sucks. He can really pressure you with bairs/uairs/nairs if you get stranded on platforms too.

-ROOOOY!




Matchup Summary: 60:40 Donkey Kong

sorry about the double post... but DK discussion can start now.

greenstreet how did you manage to play Matador if you are in australia...

anyway i have no problems whatsoever with DK's. I know other people have problems with him but every DK ive played on wifi i either 2-3 stock consistently and when my brother plays DK, who is probably equal skill level as me he will be lucky to win 1/4 matches (by comparison, his mario is probably 55:45 with my sonic). I dont know what US DK mainers do that is so vastly different to every australian dk mainer i play (yes they all spam bair, dtilt, dsmash Oos etc) such that i find this an easy matchup, and id love to know what it is.

fun facts:
Dash attack and spindash/charge will go right through his hand slap
while he is using upb, drop a bair on his head, it goes right through it
at 0%, go for a grab, pummel, uthrow. then follow his DI for an easy utilt/usmash + follow up for 29%+ combo.

-edit-
moar

Dk has a massive blindspot diagonal in front and below him in the air. his fair is practically useless against all not named snake and his nair hits too high up.

the answer is not easily dj. plenty of lag...plenty.

Well im sure my brother could give you a hand with testing the matchup. mario + DK are some of his mains so that could help you form a better opinion of the matchups