PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

Ref · Nov 8, 2008

Not really I used projectiles because DK is easy to hit with them / shield stabable. If you say bum made mistakes, someone can say I made mistakes too...

Eh... Bum>Ref... And yea Projectiles are playing smart... It's not a bad sign though at all.

Jtails · Nov 8, 2008

about the mistakes eh everyone makes em =P

itsthebigfoot · Nov 8, 2008

_clinton said:
Funny...I'm pretty sure DK has to be the one to come in to Ness...not Ness coming into DK...

what are you going to do? camp us with pk fire? great plan, because we definitely can't shield it and punish with headbutts. aside from pk fire and maybe thunder if you're feeling lucky (if the dk guesses right you're dead), dk spaces much better than you

Levitas · Nov 8, 2008

No, clinton's right here. Ness has the tools to force DK to approach.

And really? Punish PK fire with headbut? are you serious? Why is Ness using the pk fire so close to you that that would work?

Jtails · Nov 8, 2008

you can charge your Donkey punch. which could be devastating! so we gotta chase. also we cant let you get in position for bairs. and tilts.

yea i agree with bigfoot. DK can deff outcamp/outspace ness. and even outgimp =/

though ness can pressure dk lots with Fair, dairs and grabs. so dk deff has to keep it moving.

Gaussis · Nov 8, 2008

Any punch charging he tries can be punished with PKT. Shield you say? Then I'll go into scraping it. PKT tailwhips until I can shield poke, and you are in the air where I can do aerials. DK cannot outcamp Ness.

Jtails · Nov 8, 2008

Gaussis said:
Any punch charging he tries can be punished with PKT. Shield you say? Then I'll go into scraping it. PKT tailwhips until I can shield poke, and you are in the air where I can do aerials. DK cannot outcamp Ness.

I guess not since he has no projectiles. but i still wouldnt want that punch to get charged.

Gaussis · Nov 8, 2008

The explanation above is how you are supposed to. Direct PKT into DK's head during the charge. When he shields, it should look like it goes through it. Circle PKT and you should hit him into the air. Just keep in mind your distance when attempting this.

Levitas · Nov 8, 2008

Once it's charged, there's no point in not camping, though.

Jtails · Nov 8, 2008

yea it just feels troublesome cause DK can really put on that pressure. if you just camp. hes not that slow.

_clinton · Nov 8, 2008

Jtails said:
you can charge your Donkey punch. which could be devastating! so we gotta chase. also we cant let you get in position for bairs. and tilts.

yea i agree with bigfoot. DK can deff outcamp/outspace ness. and even outgimp =/

though ness can pressure dk lots with Fair, dairs and grabs. so dk deff has to keep it moving.

lol at the out gimp thing IMO...

EdreesesPieces · Nov 9, 2008

I think this is a pretty even matchup. DK's got the cargo setups and so on, but Ness CAN spike DK through his recovery very easily. Just two important things, but overall the match feels even.

I don't care how laggy Ness' projectiles are, someone without projectiles can't "camp" someone with them.

PKNintendo · Nov 9, 2008

I suppose your right...

Anyway, I want YOU guys to decide the nest character.

thesage · Nov 9, 2008

Falco or Rob

SuSa · Nov 9, 2008

no... DK -can- outcamp you without a projectile.

I got DK camped -.- and yes, PKT would hit him, but overall thats it... if I tried to approach for a KO (he camped be 2 stocks and lived to 180%) he'd simply use his long reaching tilts or dodge.

It was really, really annoying.... and I ended up losing from a stock and 100% lead...

and can we do Rob as well?

(it seems heavyweights give me problems xD)

Uffe · Nov 9, 2008

A dodgy DK can be punished just like everybody else. I find King DeDeDe to give me a harder time than DK any day.

Our next match up should be R.O.B.

PKNintendo · Nov 9, 2008

Havokk said:
no... DK -can- outcamp you without a projectile.

I got DK camped -.- and yes, PKT would hit him, but overall thats it... if I tried to approach for a KO (he camped be 2 stocks and lived to 180%) he'd simply use his long reaching tilts or dodge.

It was really, really annoying.... and I ended up losing from a stock and 100% lead...

and can we do Rob as well?

(it seems heavyweights give me problems xD)

PK fire tactics. (It's on EB360 topic)
It helps. I've never been camped by DK.

Gaussis · Nov 9, 2008

Havokk said:
no... DK -can- outcamp you without a projectile.

I got DK camped -.- and yes, PKT would hit him, but overall thats it... if I tried to approach for a KO (he camped be 2 stocks and lived to 180%) he'd simply use his long reaching tilts or dodge.

If it hits, then why would you approach? Just keep hitting him until he comes to you. If you can mindgame him, go for PKT2 when he approaches, although you shouldn't depend on it. Instead, floorblast (hit yourself on your head with PKT) as he approaches. You should be able to escape most of anything he attempts at that point.

ROB would be nice. I can help with input.

Masky · Nov 9, 2008

ROB is fun to spike

Gaussis · Nov 9, 2008

How do you do it? It's freaking hard for me.

Earthbound Zero · Nov 9, 2008

PKNintendo, would you mind putting up links to the parts of the thread where certain characters are discussed on the first post? It's annoying searching for info for certain characters done quite a while ago. ):

PKSkyler · Nov 9, 2008

Gaussis said:
How do you do it? It's freaking hard for me.

He is vulnerable when he up bs, because if he attacks or airdodges he cant up b till he lands (I think...?)

btw, put marth down at 70-30, heh heh. itll make the list more complete the more characters we have, and your missing an easy one.

Gaussis · Nov 9, 2008

He can up-B and uair during the rise. Or he could always fly high above and cancel up-B using fair (or was it dair, can't remember). That way, he can airdodge.

Stealth Raptor · Nov 9, 2008

as Rob is using his up-b he has no airdoge. he can use any attack, and after the attack his up b ends and he can air dodge etc. or he can continue the up b if he so desieres.

Gaussis · Nov 9, 2008

Still, it's hard to spike him. This just makes him vulnerable to PKT.

GwJ · Nov 9, 2008

Not necessarily. A Fair or Uair can cancel out a PKT.

Gaussis · Nov 9, 2008

How about in other places? We know it can be outprioritized, but in mobility, PKT wins (unless of course you are using up-B to escape PKT). We can circle it into places where hitboxes aren't available immediately.

Nintendevil · Nov 9, 2008

Circling is the best way to mess up a ROB with pkt, because the tail keeps the attack going in the same spot, however, if you try to hit with it head on we can just fair it.

Also, ROB can airdodge immediately after using any attack out of his UP B, and he still gets some booster fuel to use. So if I Up B then immediately fair, I can continue to UP B and airdodge at the same time.

PK-ow! · Nov 9, 2008

ROB forces the approach. Lazers are annoying as &$#%.

And I know it definitely is in part just me, but tops are disruptive too.

Other than staying within medium range, though, this is not too difficult, for a match against a supposedly high tier character. ROB has many matchups like that, eh? Some just hate the thing's ground game; others can walk over it.
Ness is able to neutralize the ground game, I think. . . but his own isn't strong enough to actually engage Robot there.

Don't get Dsmashed (and if you do, try to mixup your reaction, FGS), don't let it pull glide toss BS; keep on it and don't get bair flames in your face.

You have to produce an opening, which you can do with the usual PKF and SH tactics; I find yo-yo applies, although I can't describe how. With that opening, you combo it hard.

Oh yes, and as discussed: PKT. PKT for the hills.

What can ROBs do in particular? I phear 1337 Fsmash skills, myself. Should we invite them over?

Gaussis · Nov 9, 2008

I thought PKNintendo did that already. I guess not.

To add to PK-ow!'s description: PKT is a very effective projectile in this matchup. Not only does it shieldpoke through shield scraping, but attempting it from above almost guarantees a PKT2 so long as they don't do one of three things:
-Move the shield upwards
-Spotdodge
-Roll
If Ness misses, he should be down on the floor. At that point, you retreat and start over. Even if you don't go for PKT2, just shieldpoking him should be enough to get him off the ground.

I'll type more as I think about it more.

Uffe · Nov 9, 2008

I hardly come across any R.O.B. mains, but I've been able to beat a certain person who uses R.O.B. I can't say he's the easiest person to fight against, either. This guy I guess is fairly new with using R.O.B. since he never bothered to actually try and use his uair while returning to the stage which made it a bit easier to spike him. His lasers were used a lot, too. When a R.O.B. main or player uses this, it becomes quite predictable. Just like when R.O.B. uses his spot dodge > d-smash. That's become predictable to me over time of play against this guy's R.O.B. and seeing these kinds on YouTube and Spectator.

Ness' PSI Magnet becomes useful in this match because it can absorb R.O.B.'s laser and bounce his Gyro back. You can also bat the Gyro if you want to and use it against R.O.B. Using your PKT tail is also effective. I mean this is actually effective against a lot of characters, not just R.O.B. I'm not sure how great R.O.B.'s aerial game is and I'm guessing his is just as good as Ness', but I noticed when I fought my friend's R.O.B., he likes to use a lot of his fair, bair and dair while in the air. He'd also love to gimp me when I returned, which he eventually began to get punished for doing so over the time playing against him.

I've managed to beat his R.O.B. and a few other R.O.B.'s. R.O.B. never seemed so easy but he never seemed so tough, either. Now that I remember, I do recall fighting this girls R.O.B. which was amazingly tough! I was surprised to have won, too. She'd space herself a lot, spam attacks at a distance and such. Sadly I don't remember all of the matches fighting her R.O.B. All I do remember is that R.O.B. wasn't easy and that I managed to win. Either way, that robot is hell no matter who you choose. I have no idea why I tell my life story about match ups. x_x

Gaussis · Nov 9, 2008

Magnet works? I thought the gyro was unaffected by PSI magnet.

ROB isn't easy because of his defenses. However, realizing what ROB can and can't do is key to the matchup.

Telling story matchups is good Uffe. It allows you to recall things, sometimes things you may have forgotten. It does the same job a replay does: time to analyze your reactions and reflect on them.

Levitas · Nov 9, 2008

Uffe's talking about the magnet's "wind" effect.

Gaussis · Nov 9, 2008

That's what I meant. I remember trying to push the gyro with PSI magnet on the ground. It didn't even budge. Is it different when it is fired at you or something?

Uffe · Nov 9, 2008

It works when it's fired. Of course at those moments, I was expecting a laser, not a Gyro, so I'd release the PSI Magnet right when it could have hit me. It's odd because it never hit me whenever I did that. Just to let you guys know, I'm not saying my friend is the greatest R.O.B. out there. He just seems to be the only one I really ever come across.

_clinton · Nov 9, 2008

ROB is an annoying SOB to fight...

The Gryo's main use can be to screw with the placement of ROB...ROB has a hella good wave throw (or whatever it is called) that can be used to come in or go out very well...if he is coming in...expect a Fsmash or something like that...

Anyway...Ness can duck under ROB's Fsmash and laser if it doesn't aim it down...but sadly...the Gyro is where it is at...

SuSa · Nov 9, 2008

Hit Gyro with Bat (to make it yours) then Wind Push it. - only tip I have.........

Also don't spotdodge the dsmash

I reccommend just shielding it, because I've been hit trying to roll out of it >.<

~ only advice I got since I otherwise suck vs ROB

Uffe · Nov 10, 2008

Well I was PMed by Stealth Raptor, the Pikachu main and I fought his R.O.B. He won every match but the last one. The matches however were very close, though there were times he two stocked me. T-T Unfortunately for me, we went to stages that were bad for Ness. Then we went to Final Destination, Smashville and Brinstar, the one I finally beat him on. I'm not sure what to say about these matches. However, if you recover smart, you shouldn't have that bad of a time coming back to the stage. Actually it could be worse. Ask Stealth Raptor. He'll tell you how low I've gone and some how made it back. :laugh:

Anyway, I absorbed lasers, reflected Gyros with the PSI Magnet, found out Ness' fair can stop R.O.B.'s Gyro dead in the air or simply catch it. The PK Thunder tail can also stop R.O.B.'s Gyro, too. I think so anyway. I'm not exactly sure if it stopped the Gyro dead in the air making it drop, but whatever. How many times are you going to do that anyway? R.O.B. can be easily gimped if he least expects it, but I'm not sure if I'd recommend it unless you know for sure he's not going to use his uair while recovering.

R.O.B. will use his up B and fair to push you off the stage. No point in trying to use your fair back on him when he does this. Your best bet is to probably air dodge. When he does knock you off the stage, use your PSI Magnet stall, air dodge, second jump and PKT2, if necessary, wisely. Failing to do this will just make it easier for R.O.B. to gimp you. Make sure you have your second jump especially. There were reasons I got two stocked simply because my second jump couldn't be used thus making me die early on in the match.

Keep in mind that R.O.B. has a good edge game. He can fire his laser or Gyro while guarding the edge. The match up is obviously in R.O.B.'s favor. But I'm not sure where it is. I only won one match and I'm not sure how good Stealth Raptor is, whether he goes to tournaments or not. I'd say I'm a decent Ness main. I know there are better Ness mains here. If anyone is up for the challenge against his R.O.B. to help out this match up, go ahead and see if you can do better than I did. Again, the matches were very close, but R.O.B. ended up winning anyway.

Stealth Raptor · Nov 10, 2008

What is said was very true. ROB has an excellent gimp and edge game. one thing to note- i never got this off on uffe- but a launched gyro will steal your PKT when you try to use it to recover. ive done it to my friend's lucas before, and it can work on ness too. if a rob goes at you off the edge, DEFINITLY try to hit him first, or if he hits you first, air dodge and recover. and if he runs out of djs dont expect him to stop the WoP. i think i got 6 hit WoP and chased him off screen, and barely missed the 7th which would have killed. stay away from walls as we can dtilt lock you for a pretty decent amount of time. if we do get you locked, you can di towards rob and push him away, then you can di back and escape. i missed a walk back dtilt on him, so i am not sure if that truly lets you escape. ROB mains can probably correct me there. on the ground we completely dominate with our tilts, it really does seem best to try to get hits in from the air. that is all i can think of right now. oh and if we are standing on the ledge, dont try to recover from down low. we can very quickly fall off, drop, fair, and recover, and you are screwed.

Uffe · Nov 10, 2008

^^^ I'm not done with you! D:< I'm going to need as much R.O.B. experience as I can get so I can get better over time! :D Hopefully then I'll put up a better fight. T-T

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