PKAY FIAH! ~ Ness MU Discussion [INDEX PAGE + Various Discussions]

[Sudai]

Thanks for testing that, Stealth. I still plan to test it because I like to have first hand experience with testing things before I completely discredit the idea. So nothing against you, I've just been like this ever since my 64 days. XD

 

[Ref]

Can't R.O.B do that to other characters too?

 

[PKNintendo]

Can't R.O.B do that to other characters too?

No. Other characters aren't cursed with Ness' questionable grab release. Oh well.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

maybe ness has a very long grab release animation, the thing is though, the ness i did this to could perfect shield it without perfect timing. the thing that amazes me is the high damage it goes to, like over 70. its a *****y way to do it lol.

 

[Ref]

No. Other characters aren't cursed with Ness' questionable grab release. Oh well.

Bowser can grab release almost the whole cast... The Ness grab release thing isn't the only factor in determining who can be attacked out of a grab.

 

[PKNintendo]

Bowser can grab release almost the whole cast... The Ness grab release thing isn't the only factor in determining who can be attacked out of a grab.

I suppose. Im still for 55-45 ROB.

I know playing a defensive Ness is hard but he's a better character. EB360 guide has tech's on PKF. Once I practised them, I was obsessed. I PK Jumped my PKF to approach e.c.t.

In the ROB vs Ness matchup, if you force ROB to approach you your pretty skilled. Getting camped is still easy though, and in no way am I saying Ness can outcamp ROB, but Ness playing defensive against Rob>Offensive Ness.

Footstool combo's. They work well on Rob due to his size, and can rack up the damage. They are HARD to perform though... I suppose Ness can be gimped by yeah... Sudai discussed this already.

Yo-yo use is nice, especially against that stupid dsmash. PKF>Fsmash or grab is also viable.

I see it as a 55-45 TBH.

PS: Doesn't Lucas have a 6-4 disadvantage against Rob?

 

[Ref]

PK fire to f smash is not viable. It never was.

 

[PKNintendo]

PK fire to f smash is not viable. It never was.

Of course it isn't. X:-

Thing is, lot's of people don't know about that! I usually land the move since their surprised.

I found something 10 X better. PKF>Downtilt=trip>Grab>Pumme>Fthrow.

 

[Sudai]

I suppose. Im still for 55-45 ROB.

I know playing a defensive Ness is hard but he's a better character. EB360 guide has tech's on PKF. Once I practised them, I was obsessed. I PK Jumped my PKF to approach e.c.t.

Did you miss the part where I said I prefer to psuedo-approach? Camping won't get ROB too far in this match, but a properly Zoning ROB just limit's Ness way too much for it to be considered even. (55:45 is essentially even)

In the ROB vs Ness matchup, if you force ROB to approach you your pretty skilled. Getting camped is still easy though, and in no way am I saying Ness can outcamp ROB, but Ness playing defensive against Rob>Offensive Ness.

Just because ROB is a camping machine (no pun intended) doesn't mean its his best option vs everyone.

Yo-yo use is nice, especially against that stupid dsmash. PKF>Fsmash or grab is also viable.

Any ROB that's DSmashing at a range for you to punish with your DSmash is doing it wrong. A lot of newer ROBs over rely on the DSmash, but I've never seen a ROB do a DSmash that far away against Ness..ever.

As for the PKF > FSmash/Grab, proper SDI is usually enough to get ROB out of the PKF before Ness can get to us for an FSmash. Dash Grab is probably your best option here.

Note: I'm assuming you're hitting at the peak of PKF range because trying to PKF any closer means you're gonna eat an FTilt.

PS: Doesn't Lucas have a 6-4 disadvantage against Rob?

I think Lucas is 6-4 disadvantage on ROB. Personal opinion, the boards haven't come to a conclusion as a whole.

 

[PKNintendo]

Did you miss the part where I said I prefer to psuedo-approach? Camping won't get ROB too far in this match, but a properly Zoning ROB just limit's Ness way too much for it to be considered even. (55:45 is essentially even)



Just because ROB is a camping machine (no pun intended) doesn't mean its his best option vs everyone.




Any ROB that's DSmashing at a range for you to punish with your DSmash is doing it wrong. A lot of newer ROBs over rely on the DSmash, but I've never seen a ROB do a DSmash that far away against Ness..ever.

As for the PKF > FSmash/Grab, proper SDI is usually enough to get ROB out of the PKF before Ness can get to us for an FSmash. Dash Grab is probably your best option here.

Note: I'm assuming you're hitting at the peak of PKF range because trying to PKF any closer means you're gonna eat an FTilt.



I think Lucas is 6-4 disadvantage on ROB. Personal opinion, the boards haven't come to a conclusion as a whole.

Ahh... I see.

I still think 6-4 is a bit much. Ness get's zoned by Rob but who doesn't. Mario is zoned by him yet Mario has the advantage ( I know why though )

55-45 is essentially even, but swinging for one character Rob. Psueudo approach sounds annoying. I just don't think Rob is a 6-4 against Ness as opposed to Wario or G&W who are harder matchups.

 

[Sudai]

Can you point to any serious advantages that Ness has that would make this match-up any less than 60-40? I'm fairly confident I've brought up most of the points in this fight and they lean to ROB having the advantage. I'm willing to concede the point, but right now there's just nothing to convince me.. :/

 

[Ref]

Ness has a ranged advantage. Ness can attack or spike rob out of his Up b, Ness' yo yo can punish Rob's spot dodge to down smash stuff. Pk thunder juggle...

I'm just listing stuff...

 

[PKNintendo]

Can you point to any serious advantages that Ness has that would make this match-up any less than 60-40? I'm fairly confident I've brought up most of the points in this fight and they lean to ROB having the advantage. I'm willing to concede the point, but right now there's just nothing to convince me.. :/

PKF ***** the heavies... I got more but... What does Rob have. (and don't say CG)

 

[Wolydarg]

Ness has a ranged advantage. Ness can attack or spike rob out of his Up b, Ness' yo yo can punish Rob's spot dodge to down smash stuff. Pk thunder juggle...

Ness does not have a ranged advantage. Ness can't do anything to ROB at a range without getting hit with something. Rob can't just laser/gyro because of the Magnet, but that doesn't mean Ness has a ranged advantage.

You won't spike a competent ROB out of his up-b. I guarantee it.

You can punish ROB's spot dodge with your fair, too. But the thing is that spotdodge->dsmash isn't the only thing we do. It just so happens that those particular moves are extremely efficient for dealing with lower level play.

PK thunder is too slow to effectly juggle ROB. You'd need a faster projectile (like a Meta Knight) to seriously juggle ROB. ROB can fly, like, way off the stage and then recover. But then again I could be thinking of something else for PKT juggle, so please correct me if there's something else here.

PKF ***** the heavies... I got more but... What does Rob have. (and don't say CG)

With proper SDI I never had a problem with PKF =\
ROB has excellent range on the ground (and maybe enough in the air to challenge that beastly fair), a great edgeguarding/gimping game, projectiles to mix things up, and the ability to friggin fly.

Of course this is all just on paper, but some if not most of this stuff is going to translate well into real play.

I do hope I'm not coming off as condescending here, so please correct me if you think my views are flawed. After all, that's the point of these forums, right?

 

[Ref]

What can R.O.B do to not get spiked? PK thunder is not too slow...

 

[Sudai]

ROB's UAir beats Ness's DAir. Any competent ROB won't get PK fired while recovering. I -did- point to ROB's advantages. Read back to my first post on the topic. Ness's Yo-Yo can punish ROB's spotdodge, but I don't even spot-dodge > DSmash often. DSmash out of shield is generally a better option as it doesn't put us at as much risk and we don't have to commit to anything.

In the end though, does the match-rating really make that big a difference? If you guys say its 55-45 and I say it's 60-40, it won't change anything in game.. I'm personally gonna hold this as a 60-40 for ROB because I still don't see anything that Ness has to make this match go even for Ness. If you guys want to post it as 55-45, feel free to because, as said, it won't actually change anything in the long run. >.o

 

[Ref]

55-45 or 60-40 R.O.B advantage sounds okay, are you sure U air beats D air? Also I know a Ness player who feels R.O.B is 60-40 with Ness at a disadvantage...

Ness out ranges R.O.B in the air... PK flash can get Rob's recovery or Pk thunder... But yea I'll settle for 60-40 or 55-45 R.O.B advantage... I don't have much experience in this match up...

Ness can reflect the Gyro while it's on the ground with a forward smash and pick it up easily... Which I find funny not really important though...

Needs more input though, more R.O.B players please.

 

[Sudai]

Ness out ranges R.O.B in the air...

ROB's FAir is disjointed enough to trade hits with Ness' fair when perfectly spaced. It's not gonna happen too much, just pointing it out.

PK flash can get Rob's recovery or Pk thunder...

On most stages ROB can just go under to get away from PK flash or just stall low and wait. Our fuel can last a -long- time. As for PK Thunder, UAir and FAir will cancel the PKT without us taking damage. I think PKT is gonna be your best bet to get damage on us off stage, just have to be tricky with it.

Ness can reflect the Gyro while it's on the ground with a forward smash and pick it up easily... Which I find funny not really important though...

Another reason I don't really like camping. It's just not all that effective against Ness.

Ref, go back some post and look for my big post on the match-up. I basically covered everything from a ROB's point of view already. This is directed at the "Need more ROB imput" comment, not the other sutff.

 

[Ref]

I actually want some opinions from other players... But I guess all points being addressed is good even if it was from a few players.

 

[ColinJF]

I don't agree with 60-40 ROB wins. Pk thunder is too good versus ROB for it to be that big of an advantage. And yes his aerials cancel the head, so do 90% of the aerials in the game. The head makes up a small part of pk thunder and the rest of it can't be attacked. Pk thunder is really good at attacking ROB from below; so is Ness's up air.

I wouldn't use pk flash versus ROB's recovery.

I think it's 55-45 ROB wins at worst.

 

[Sudai]

Ah, I gotcha there. Sadly, most ROBs don't go to the outlying boards. I made a post asking the ROBs to come here and post more (I don't like being the only one giving imput from my side) and no one's really coming.. :/

 

[Gaussis]

The reason why I believe it's even is because while ROB can zone in on Ness, he has literally no defenses to a properly placed PKT2. This will occur when Ness is above you. Ness uses PKT. At this point, you have three options:

-Roll
-Shield
-Outprioritize PKT

Outprioritizing PKT is easier said than done, especially when Ness is in control of it. Then you have shielding and rolling. Rolling will only lead to chasing (a 50% chance of success essentially). Shielding is the worst thing you can do in this scenario. A shield will end up weakened by PKT due to shield scraping the top, and then lead into PKT2. Sometimes, Ness will PKT2 immediately and it will still hit due to shieldpoke. Having something like this with chances this high is worth mentioning because it severely weakens ROB's defensive game.

The only thing that keeps ROB at a very slight advantage is the fact that he is resistant to death and the fact that he has considerable strength in the air. However, Ness isn't beaten in the air though. Ness can juggle ROB by aiming for his blindspots (anywhere that isn't the top or the front) using PKT. He also beats him in aerial priority in those areas (his hitboxes come out first).

@Stealth Raptor: I'll play you now if you want.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

let me finish checking up smash boards and i will be ready.

 

[Wolydarg]

Can someone post a video or something that shows the effectiveness of PKT?

I always thought it was just a slow moving projectile with a tail that you could control and was easily interruptable by a laser or gyro hitting ness, but you guys seem to be making it into something far more awesome. I'd love to see it working as described though. If nothing more than just to do it constantly while playing against my housemates who hate "cheap things" xD

I'm also rather confused on what was said about the PKT while above ROB. Once again, a video would be greatly appreciated.

It's very hard to edge guard ROB, especially if you don't also have an awesome recovery.

 

[Uffe]

Can someone post a video or something that shows the effectiveness of PKT?

I always thought it was just a slow moving projectile with a tail that you could control and was easily interruptable by a laser or gyro hitting ness, but you guys seem to be making it into something far more awesome. I'd love to see it working as described though. If nothing more than just to do it constantly while playing against my housemates who hate "cheap things" xD

I'm also rather confused on what was said about the PKT while above ROB. Once again, a video would be greatly appreciated.

It's very hard to edge guard ROB, especially if you don't also have an awesome recovery.

They make it sound more awesome than it really is. It can be stopped and it's not that hard to stop. Of course you can control PK Thunder, so you never actually know where it's going to go. I'd try to hit people while they were in the air and they'd usually use their dair to cancel it. But then I thought I'd just hit them from all sides if they were just going to do that. Plus, you can pull it back, tailwhip them and then zap them with the ball. Seemed to have worked. It's not slow, though. It's fairly quick for a three second attack, unlike Lucas' PK Thunder. Of course it is useful. As for edge guarding R.O.B., you can do an aerial rise off the stage pushing R.O.B. further back, trying to make his fuel waste, though it's not suggested.

 

[Sudai]

Thing is, ROB doesn't have to recover low, and it's not hard to hit Ness with a laser making him lose control of the PKT. Laser recharge is only 1 second for the weak laser so if time it right, we should make it to the ledge just fine.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

I played gauss and the pkt *****. you may thinkyou can stop it but they can just angle it around us. now i am not the best rob, so it maya not affect the rob mains as much. the tail eats the gyro.

 

[Sudai]

Wifi or in person?

 

[Uffe]

I'll try to get those videos up asap. It's against a CPU, yes, but I have no one else to play with. Should I title them, "The Devastating Power of PK Thunder," or what? They're eye candy, even if it were on a CPU. Now if I can get my stupid digital camera to work right.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

they were im wifi, and the lag wasnt bad. i found the pkt annoying as hell.

 

[rtype]

hey guys... i've been lurking this thread a lot and ive been having too many problems with mr game and watch

he seems to completely shut down ness. can we do game and watch next? he is such a nightmare to handle.

 

[darkspatan117]

try to kill with bthrow or trap him in pk fire

 

[PKNintendo]

try to kill with bthrow or trap him in pk fire

NO PKF! If he buckets it...

 

[ColinJF]

I don't want to have to discuss Game & Watch again. It's a pretty even match up though. But really I don't think you should discuss it in this thread any time soon...

 

[Popertop]

... he gets grabbed and bthrown

wait, is there too much lag on PKfire?

 

[Ref]

Yes PK fire G&W a bucket full of pillar blast is not much... He can easily be batted while he is too busy absorbing it or just grab him.

 

[PKNintendo]

... he gets grabbed and bthrown

wait, is there too much lag on PKfire?

Again, since when do you main Ness! We gotta play sometime.

 

[Popertop]

I don't main Ness, I just picked him up like the other day. I have a friend that plays Ness, so I'm not too out of the loop. Lol play my Bowser lol.

I actually don't have a wii or brawl. I only get to play at my friend's or at tourneys.

 

[PKNintendo]

I don't main Ness, I just picked him up like the other day. I have a friend that plays Ness, so I'm not too out of the loop. Lol play my Bowser lol.

I actually don't have a wii or brawl. I only get to play at my friend's or at tourneys.

K. Main Ness so his roots of mains can grow. DO IT I SAY!

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Lets do G&W Next