R.O.B. Match-Up Discussion Week #4: Mario

Sudai · Dec 2, 2008

Go

HeroMystic · Dec 2, 2008

Here's what we summarized from our own match-up discussion that started a week ago. Where were you guys? =|

R.O.B

Pros:
+R.O.B. is very easy to juggle.
+Cape neutralizes R.O.B.'s projectile spam and such.
+FIHL affects all his aerials.
+Mario is much faster in the air than R.O.B.
+Fireballs help a a lot to create openings for easy juggles.
+Jab outspeeds all of his attacks.
+More Reliable KO Potiential

Cons:
-Beastly recovery.
-More priority.
-Better reach.
-His Shield grab is annoying.
-KO Power is even with Mario's.

Match-up ratio is still debatable, but most of us are leaning towards 65:35 Mario.

Syde7 · Dec 2, 2008

On the subject of the cape, a possible neutralizer that has worked for me is to gyro THEN laser (or vice versa). He can't cape them both, as the cool down from one guarantees the other will hit. It works if you just *stand* there and do it, and even offstage. A lot of Marios I've played <3 their capes and use it waaay too much (but, then again- that might just be the calibur of Marios I've played :/). Also, I prefer B-air edgeguards; either out of a turn-around up+B, or RAR'd as even if they cape it, they still get hit by the opposite hitbox.

The only thing I have much of a problem with is the length of Mario's dash attack & its ability to poke and my perceived impossibility to shield grab it, as well as getting a fireball directly in my face when I attempt to gimp. Nornally, it isn't tough as I can just F-air through them, but there's nothing to do when its in your face, but then again that's just a product of my poor timing I suppose.

During the early portions of my stock, I prefer to stay on the ground to approach- utilizing jabs and F-tilts as opposed to running the risk of getting U-tilted and then juggled out of a shield if I approach via the air. After a certain degree of damage has been racked up on me, I change approach styles. This is one of thos match-ups that I feel MORE comfortable playing If I've gotten 40-60% damage already inflicted on me.

IMO, its still in Mario's favor... but not so much as 65:35, maybe 60:40.

Judge Judy · Dec 2, 2008

DuLL_RaZer said:
On the subject of the cape, a possible neutralizer that has worked for me is to gyro THEN laser (or vice versa). He can't cape them both, as the cool down from one guarantees the other will hit. It works if you just *stand* there and do it, and even offstage. A lot of Marios I've played <3 their capes and use it waaay too much (but, then again- that might just be the calibur of Marios I've played :/). Also, I prefer B-air edgeguards; either out of a turn-around up+B, or RAR'd as even if they cape it, they still get hit by the opposite hitbox.

Reverse capes have a lingering hitbox that mixes up timing for reflecting with the cape; forward capes are good for quick reflecting and reverse capes are good for slightly lingering reflecting properties.

Nintendevil · Dec 2, 2008

Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair fair fair fair fair fair fair!

^wonderful move against Mario.

ipitydatfu · Dec 2, 2008

i liked that picture more than this matchup

Nintendevil · Dec 2, 2008

lolcosplaylol

Judge Judy · Dec 2, 2008

Nintendevil said:
Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair Cancel fireballs with fair fair fair fair fair fair fair!

^wonderful move against Mario.

One word, FLUDD.

Nintendevil · Dec 2, 2008

Judge Judy said:
One word, FLUDD.

...Then you laser.

Judge Judy · Dec 2, 2008

Nintendevil said:
...Then you laser.

You can't if you get caught in FIHL.

JCaesar · Dec 2, 2008

65:35? Daayum I thought Marth mains were the cocky ones :laugh:

Don't get me wrong, I agree that the matchup is in Mario's favor (especially after having played quite a bit with the best Mario in the country, you all know who I'm talking about

) but only slightly, 55:45 or 60:40 at worst.

Don't forget that a smart Mario can still be gimped, a smart ROB cannot.

HeroMystic · Dec 2, 2008

JCaesar007 said:
65:35? Daayum I thought Marth mains were the cocky ones

You do know both the ROB boards and the Mario boards agreed to 70:30 Mario months ago, right? This is nowhere near 55:45. It's 60:40 at the very least.

In any case, here's the discussion since I'm not going to say the same stuff. Take it as you will.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=174907&page=70

JCaesar · Dec 2, 2008

Yeah, we were a bit ... extreme with our matchup ratios back then. I think we had MK at 90:10 and G&W at 80:20 also, or something ridiculous like that. I think these matches are all a good bit closer than that, the way we understand them now.

stingers · Dec 2, 2008

ROB vs. Mario:

* Space with Ftilt, for the love of god. You outrange everything he has. Ftilt clanks with fireballs. Only thing he can do is approach from the air...shield that ****.
* Don't camp against Mario. A good Mario will not be camped. That cape is fast as hell. Just play smart. If he's ever in a vulnerable position, shoot off a laser. You should really only be using the gyro for glide tossing and the occasional off-stage gimp. Also, most of your lasers should be of the "strong" variety here. You really shouldn't be shooting off lasers like a madman in this matchup. We're ROB mains, we know that every % counts :laugh:

so don't let Mario get your % up faster by shooting off too many lasers.
* Fair beats all of Mario's air game. All of it.
* If you ever let a Mario inside of your zone and he starts Uairing you like a *****, SDI towards Mario. From my experience, they usually move forward as they Uair because they expect you to move away from them.

This is 50:50. Mario can't approach a good ROB well, but if he gets in your zone, he will do some major damage. He can combo you really bad, but his bad range is his downfall. Just space well and you'll win. Don't camp, too many ROBs are used to camping and think it'll work on Mario...it won't. Play a very physical game here. Go for edgeguards at every opportunity, Mario's recovery is very...average and you can gimp it.

Kidlat · Dec 2, 2008

Rob > Mario online
Mario > Rob offline

all I can say....

HeroMystic · Dec 2, 2008

JCaesar007 said:
Yeah, we were a bit ... extreme with our matchup ratios back then. I think we had MK at 90:10 and G&W at 80:20 also, or something ridiculous like that. I think these matches are all a good bit closer than that, the way we understand them now.

Lol okay, because I was seriously wondering how the hell this was a 70:30.

But I still say this is 60:40 Mario at the very least. ROB doesn't have enough to make it even.

JCaesar · Dec 2, 2008

I could agree to 60:40 Mario.

stingers135 said:
* Don't camp against Mario. A good Mario will not be camped. That cape is fast as hell. Just play smart. If he's ever in a vulnerable position, shoot off a laser. You should really only be using the gyro for glide tossing and the occasional off-stage gimp. Also, most of your lasers should be of the "strong" variety here. You really shouldn't be shooting off lasers like a madman in this matchup. We're ROB mains, we know that every % counts so don't let Mario get your % up faster by shooting off too many lasers.

If you're getting hit by your own reflected projectiles, ur doin it rong! Angled lasers and uncharged gyros should never hit you back when they get reflected, in any matchup.

The real reason you can't camp Mario is because he fireball is too fast and too good. Boss doesn't usually camp but when he decides he wants to, he easily outcamps me with well-spaced aerial fireballs alone. You might be able to camp from a platform, but being above Mario is always a bad place to be.

But yes, even with the cape factored in, glidetossing can still be a lot of help in this matchup. Just throw it up or down.

T-REX! · Dec 2, 2008

I've been playing the best Mario in my town and god it's annoying. I keep eating fireballs to the face when I recover.

J-Prep · Dec 2, 2008

in my personal opinion, the only advantages rob has over mario is range, and chances of getting gimped by fair chain offstage.

getting hit with rob's fair offstage all the time is the equvilant to mario's uair ****.
-most robs i fight often find it easy to toss me offstage, hit me once and hold the edge since mario's recovery is nothing special.
-juggling rob is almost too easy
-rob dies pretty fast sideways (keep the fsmash fresh!)

i win.

Matador · Dec 3, 2008

stingers135 said:
* Space with Ftilt, for the love of god. You outrange everything he has. Ftilt clanks with fireballs. Only thing he can do is approach from the air...shield that ****.
* Don't camp against Mario. A good Mario will not be camped. That cape is fast as hell. Just play smart. If he's ever in a vulnerable position, shoot off a laser. You should really only be using the gyro for glide tossing and the occasional off-stage gimp. Also, most of your lasers should be of the "strong" variety here. You really shouldn't be shooting off lasers like a madman in this matchup. We're ROB mains, we know that every % counts so don't let Mario get your % up faster by shooting off too many lasers.
* Fair beats all of Mario's air game. All of it.
* If you ever let a Mario inside of your zone and he starts Uairing you like a *****, SDI towards Mario. From my experience, they usually move forward as they Uair because they expect you to move away from them.

Ftilt's hard to get around as Mario, but he has options. The thing about this matchup is that ROB generally outranges Mario and can keep him out, but Mario has options for it. He's a bit quicker on his feet/attack speed than ROB. Since most of ROB's attacks aren't disjointed (to my knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong) he can theoretically be caped when it touches one of his limbs. Once he DOES get around his range, Mario can rack up pretty massive damage because of that blindspot.

Your Fair clashes with our Bair.

Also remember that if ROB isn't going to be killing Mario at very low %, but Mario will be. Fsmash KOs ROB relatively low (around 110% IIRC). ROB can gimp to sort of even it out, but Mario will be reliably killing lower than him.

stingers135 said:
This is 50:50. Mario can't approach a good ROB well, but if he gets in your zone, he will do some major damage. He can combo you really bad, but his bad range is his downfall. Just space well and you'll win. Don't camp, too many ROBs are used to camping and think it'll work on Mario...it won't. Play a very physical game here. Go for edgeguards at every opportunity, Mario's recovery is very...average and you can gimp it.

I disagree. Marth's range is a serious problem for Mario because he's as fast as Mario, vastly outranges him, and is disjointed. ROB's just a shell of that. There are plenty of answers to his zoning as Mario.

HeroMystic · Dec 3, 2008

Matador said:
Also remember that if ROB isn't going to be killing Mario at very low %, but Mario will be. Fsmash KOs ROB relatively low (around 110% IIRC). ROB can gimp to sort of even it out, but Mario will be reliably killing lower than him.

Their KO power is even. ROB's F-smash kills Mario at 135%. Same with ROB's N-air. His U-Smash kills at 100%, but we all know that's pretty freaken hard to hit with.

Matador · Dec 3, 2008

Mario's Fsmash kills him lower doesn't it? ROB outclasses him in sheer number of KO options, but not in KO power does he?

HeroMystic · Dec 3, 2008

Mario's F-Smash kills him at 105% if tilted upward. Mario's U-Smash kills him at 135%.

They're pretty even, but Mario's KO options are much more reliable.

Mr.E · Dec 3, 2008

Oh not this again...

Mario's FSmash kills noticeably sooner than the other KO options between either character. ROB has a greater number of kill moves and can gimp Mario much easier than the reverse.

Nintendevil · Dec 3, 2008

ROB doesn't have a major Problem with KO moves, aside from hitting him with one. When he's being juggled and Marios Approaches and fireballs make this difficult. That's why Fair is great in this matchup, because of it's disjointedness, but everything else is narrow. Thus, It's a ***** to hit him for a KO.

Matador · Dec 3, 2008

Mr.E said:
Oh not this again... Mario's FSmash kills noticeably sooner than the other KO options between either character. ROB has a greater number of kill moves and can gimp Mario much easier than the reverse.

We can skip quite a bit of this discussion seeing as you already went through most of it with us.

HeroMystic · Dec 3, 2008

A lot of this stuff was already debated.

What you guys can do is go to the discussion on our boards, compare data, and debate it here (link provided on first page).

With that you guys can actually debate things we haven't heard before, and that would be quite nice to do seeing as how only 2-3 ROB mains showed up.

Nintendevil · Dec 3, 2008

HeroMystic said:
With that you guys can actually debate things we haven't heard before, and that would be quite nice to do seeing as how only 2-3 ROB mains showed up.

What do you expect from the ROB boards?

I already gave my opinion. Mario hard to hit with a KO move, great approach, great at juggling ROB. **** Cape. Advantage 60-40 Mario.

Things to help fro ROB is using lots of Fair and Laser them for stupid approaching mistakes.

CJTHeroofTime · Dec 3, 2008

Matador said:
Since most of ROB's attacks aren't disjointed (to my knowledge. Correct me if I'm wrong) he can theoretically be caped when it touches one of his limbs.

I'm not sure, but I thought some of ROB's moves were slightly disjointed, and I think the ftilt is one of them. But I could be wrong, I've never tested it. If someone could clarify, that would be awesome.

JCaesar · Dec 3, 2008

Fsmash is fully disjointed, and I think all the booster attacks are somewhat disjointed, but other than that there isn't much.

CJTHeroofTime · Dec 3, 2008

So ROB's ground game pretty much gets caperaped?

DRaGZ · Dec 3, 2008

The f-tilt is not disjointed? o_O

I thought any move involving R.O.B.'s arms or booster was disjointed.

CJTHeroofTime · Dec 3, 2008

DRaGZ said:
The f-tilt is not disjointed? o_O

I thought any move involving R.O.B.'s arms or booster was disjointed.

Same here. Otherwise, we'd get hurt more often from clanking, no?

Sudai · Dec 3, 2008

"Arm moves" and boosters are disjointed. Arm moves are kind of weird. Some his whole arm is disjointed (UAir/DSmash), some it's just his hands (FAir [or maybe it's just that his head leans over so far])

CJTHeroofTime · Dec 3, 2008

Sudai said:
[or maybe it's just that his head leans over so far])

For the extra robotic precision, of course.

stingers · Dec 3, 2008

You should usually be hitting with the hands in ftilt anyway. Not always, that's nearly impossible, but most of the time.

lolz spacing

Sudai · Dec 3, 2008

Should be hitting with the hands on all of his arm based moves excluding UAir and DSmash (if you're doing it OoS anyway)

JCaesar · Dec 3, 2008

I don't think ftilt is disjointed (at least not completely), for the simple fact that it's longer range than fsmash, but if you ftilt MK's tornado, you get sucked up into it, while an fsmash will hit him out. So it's gotta have a hurtbox out there.

stingers · Dec 3, 2008

You shouldn't hit with hands on jab :laugh:

Sudai · Dec 3, 2008

I hit with hands when I jab more often than not. >.>

JCaes, I'm fairly confident that the hands are disjointed. I've never done formal testing on it but from personal experience. I could be completely wrong though.

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