The Smash Lab: What is it?

infomon · Dec 16, 2008

Ah scotu, I forgot I never addressed those points when you brough them up before, sorry.

I think that any potential confusion from having the threads public, is mitigated if there's an obvious disclaimer prefixing the Smash Lab (prolly just part of a global sticky "What Is This?" thing, but could prefix each major discussion or smthg, iunno)... and if we see ppl linking directly to an incomplete discussion, I'm sure someone will point out that it's not to be trusted for sure until the Lab reaches a conclusion. In fact, if the public has read access to the Lab, the more this understanding will be prevalent throughout the community.

Your second argument is that the threads are largely irrelevant to the general community anyway... but my previous arguments about us "independent researchers" should show why there's a real gain to having the info public the whole time.

Red Arremer · Dec 16, 2008

infzy said:
prolly just part of a global sticky "What Is This?" thing, but could prefix each major discussion or smthg, iunno

People won't see this. Believe me, I'm moderator and contributing user on more than one board, and believe me when I say: People will not see Stickies or anything else. Just look at the GBD. How many "Who should I main?"- or "Brawl me!"-threads do we have, although the "GBD Courtesy" is stickied and even has capital letters telling people that they should READ the thread BEFORE POSTING?

People only see what they want to see, everything else is uninteresting. And 20 people can point out that that's a theory, there still will be at least a handful of persons believing this and going around spreading the "information", claiming the Smash Lab has said that, and then throwing a bad light at it, people saying the Lab is dumb because they have put up some wrong theories which have been proven wrong, then, etc.

Both versions have their merits and flaws.

Even though my chances of getting in are less likely now that I see the first cyan nicknames posting and me not among them, I still think keeping the Lab private is better than having it read-only for public. Independent Researchers are not kept back to do the research they want to do - being proven or corrected by the Lab, or gathering further information from it would actually help me doing my research. Even if I'm in the middle of researching and see a thread by the Lab suddenly pop up, I'd still continue to see if my results match with those of the Lab, or if I can point out some mistake - or they point out a mistake in my results... If you can follow me.

ph00tbag · Dec 16, 2008

I'm up there with infzy and Adapt. I've done a lot of my own research on range, hitbox size, knockback, decay, etc. If these things had already been covered publicly, I wouldn't have done them. I did them because I couldn't find the information. Even having incomplete information would have been useful, because I could have at least based things off of what's been done, and focused on info as it pertains to me. I could also have PMed the involved people with my findings if they hadn't gotten to them yet.

infomon · Dec 16, 2008

Spadefox: you're right that there will always be some element of ppl who don't read the stickies, hear partial information and form opinions of the SmashLab based on that alone, etc. But keep in mind that the type of ppl making "who do I main?" threads on GBD, they're not generally the types who will follow a 15-page discussion about the intricate details of how hitstun and knockback relate to D3's escapable standing Dthrow CG on 5 characters, or w/e.

n00bs will get excited about visible effects and results, and videos if they're available. If the Smash Lab starts a thread about some possible chaingrab that Falcon has on MK, the n00bs will exclaim OMG in unison, and believe it exists for years. But that's not at all exclusive to the Smash Lab, that's just the way it goes, these "discoveries" happen all over the boards regardless. Silly things like that will often be first posted about in the character boards anyway, and then you'll just have a n00b discussion happen there while the Lab discussion happens in private on the side. If anything, a public Lab just allows those n00bs or others to follow the truth of the matter as it is discussed, and inevitably debunked, by the Lab Researchers.

Red Arremer · Dec 16, 2008

Yes, and that's the reason. These people will only, if even completely, read the OP. And that's that.

For example, I'm user on a download sharing community. People are complaining about how the links on the main site are broken, and I've posted the solution, like, 3 months ago, and even in the FRIGGIN POST RIGHT ABOVE THEM in big, bold, red letters and Caps. Yet they don't see it.

Steel · Dec 16, 2008

I don't understand the problem. You say people can just follow along the thread for the research to be clarified and finalized, but why not just wait for us to release an official thread about it? We aren't keeping anything to ourselves, just getting all the bull**** out of the way so it's easy to read and visualize for the non-researchers.

You also say that you won't even bother researching because there's a CHANCE it might be being looked at in the lab? Who is stopping you? That's like saying we shouldn't think of any ideas to increase tournament attendance because the SBR might be doing that in their private board.

Chaco · Dec 16, 2008

lol How did I never notice this thread. ^____^;

comboking · Dec 16, 2008

Is this group going to be hard to get into like the SBR?

SCOTU · Dec 16, 2008

Its access is different from that of the SBR, but it'll be harder than something like Tournament Director.

hm, on second thought, i'm not sure how the SBR choses its members anymore. I thought they voted on it, but i guess i'm wrong.

Browny · Dec 16, 2008

Steel2nd said:
You also say that you won't even bother researching because there's a CHANCE it might be being looked at in the lab? Who is stopping you?.

Thats a perfectly legit reason. like with my hitbox testing, that takes a serious amount of time, over 3 hours to get the screenshots alone, and then theres all the converting, uploading and image overlapping. Id be pretty d@mn p!ssed if there was a much quicker way to determine hitboxes, but people wouldnt tell me about it becoz im not in the SR group.

I was going to do this for lucario straight after sonic but im still waiting to find out if theres a better way of going about doing it before spending another whole day on it

Wak · Dec 16, 2008

Since I don't really like hacking the game I would rather focus on techniques and advanced techniques.

I personally think I'd be the best to create a database about techniques and advanced techniques that would raise the overall technical of the community.

Since there are less techniques in basic in Brawl than Melee (plus their are easier), I'm pretty sure I could go in a deeper research of every single techniques. Like instead of spending 1 min and half for every technique like I did in my AHTP, I could create a video of 4 mins ++ for every single technique.

This is as soon as I have a bit more time on my own, and as soon as I think it would be the time to create official videos of techniques. As for now, it's still too soon for everything official.

infomon · Dec 16, 2008

Steel2nd said:
I don't understand the problem. You say people can just follow along the thread for the research to be clarified and finalized, but why not just wait for us to release an official thread about it? We aren't keeping anything to ourselves, just getting all the bull**** out of the way so it's easy to read and visualize for the non-researchers.

But that's not impaired by having the thread public. Just do as you would otherwise, when you're done with a project, make a nice "official result" post, most ppl will be reading those anyway. Leaving the windows open is a simple courtesy for the curious, with some added bonusses: less suspicion and ppl feeling like they're in the dark, less time for independents to waste on disproven theories, etc.

Steel2nd said:
You also say that you won't even bother researching because there's a CHANCE it might be being looked at in the lab? Who is stopping you? That's like saying we shouldn't think of any ideas to increase tournament attendance because the SBR might be doing that in their private board.

It's just kinda frustrating, is all. I spent a lot of time researching Brawl's priority system, not because it's particularly fun, but because I'm genuinely curious about how it works. I'm not going to spend hours looking for an underlying explanation for the set of hitboxes that are capable of clashing with Snake's mortar, if there's some Lab that may or may not be working on it. It's nice to know what areas of research would actually lead to a novel contribution to the boards, rather than toiling on a duplicated effort.

Noone's stopping me from said research, but it's discouraging to be kept out of the loop, y'know?

M.K · Dec 16, 2008

I'm very torn between letting the Smash Lab be public or private.
Both options have pros and cons, and as I am still as-of-yet undecided, I will make my thoughts with a neutral mindset.

As all of you may know, the Smash Back Room is extraordinarily private. This creates problems when they tend to forget to inform the public of their decisions, and when they do, they become out of date and wrong after a few months, with little to no rebuttle from the Back Room staff. This is not to say that the Back Room isn't doing their job, because they are, but that the information relay from Private --> Public is staggeringly low. If the Smash Lab were to be private, the information highway from Private --> Public would need to run faster than other groups.

Nontheless, these people have proven themselves worthy of being a group on it's own. You have to admit, the general poster of Smash World Forums is quite uninformed on a vast majority of this knowledge, and to those who can present it, bravo. If we were to keep this public, there COULD be more input into the thread, but most of this input would either be wrong, uninformed, unexplained, or just plain ignorant. People like us (Yes, I said us, I truly believe that one day I will be a Reasearcher) are the prime of SWF. It is deserving that we have a place to discuss things intelligently and (when we are completely 100% ready) release findings to the public for discussion. In this way, our results will only be influenced by the best of the best, yet the public can still discuss them in the same way that the public discusses Meta-Knight's ban, Dedede's Chain-grab ban, stage bans, et cetera.

After writing this, I'm leaning alot more towards private. Being an independant researcher is like being the baker at a bakery shop next to the Pillsbury factory. It's not a bad thing, it's just that you don't have more people around you to hepl you make decisions.

I'd like to nominate Infzy to the Smash Research Lab. If you look at his (or her?)videos on You Tube, you will clearly see he/she has shown the dedication to the Lab that is required of someone who could/will/might be accepted.

Thank you for reading. ^^

CT Chia · Dec 16, 2008

how can u become a smash researcher for when the second wave starts? i would be interested in being one and i know another person or two who would b perfect

Galaxy · Dec 16, 2008

Same question as Chibo.

Browny · Dec 17, 2008

Wak said:
Since there are less techniques in basic in Brawl than Melee

i find that hard to believe... you see the AT thread on tactical boards? some characters have over 10 unique AT's, and theres a great deal more characters than melee on top of that

infomon · Dec 17, 2008

Meta-Kirby said:
If we were to keep this public, there COULD be more input into the thread, but most of this input would either be wrong, uninformed, unexplained, or just plain ignorant.

Yeah, it's been awhile since anyone's argued that the Lab should be open for everyone to post in. While I think that scenario could actually work best, I acknowledge that it would require more work to moderate/maintain, so I can understand the decision to make posting-priveledges invite-only.

However, the question right now is why the SmashLab threads should be viewable only by Smash Researchers. I don't see any harm in allowing people to see what discussions are happening in the Lab, and follow along if they'd like. In fact, it might make things easier for the Researchers as well, since they wouldn't have to deal with any conflict-of-interest situations (choosing what they're allowed to say outside of the Lab, etc.). I can't see the Lab working on anything that really requires this level of secrecy, anyway, so IMO it's just less hassle if it's publicly viewable.

I suspect that part of the problem, is that the elitism of the Researchers was a little hyped up, by SP's pseudo-contest for admission, and the cyan names (ooo status symbol). There's an innocent fun/cool component to it all, and it helps attract members and whatever. But let's acknowledge that there is a consequence to it as well. If being a Researcher is a coveted position, there may be heightened scrutiny of the Researchers' performance; if threads are visible, I can watch and see who's not posting enough, or when someone posts something incorrect...... and possibly complain "baww I'm smrtr than them I wants in!!" So maybe the Researchers want the Lab to be private so they are not held to such judgement?

If that is the reason, it's worth addressing on its own. Really it's a consequence of the elitism and hype, but anyway... We're not sure if the potential scrutiny would ever become a problem. I could only see it happening if someone outside of the Lab were to take the Researcher status waayy too seriously, to the extent that it may indicate they're not mature enough to warrant membership in the first place.

Hmm, maybe I'm way off base tho... thoughts? Oh and I'm real sorry if I'm coming across as way too political/activisty. I intend for my tone to be inquisitive, rather than finger-pointy, but I'm not sure I'm being successful at that. Internet johns!

Meta-Kirby said:
I'd like to nominate Infzy to the Smash Research Lab. If you look at his (or her?)videos on You Tube, you will clearly see he/she has shown the dedication to the Lab that is required of someone who could/will/might be accepted.

Oh, why thanks

that's pretty awesome of you.

Unfortunately, I think I'd need to understand and agree with the openness policy of the lab before I'd be comfortable joining.

Browny · Dec 17, 2008

and youd have to stop maining sonic, imagine the chaos if it were revealed Dtilt isnt actually > sonic or that his dash attack actually does pick up bananas

Pr0phetic · Dec 17, 2008

Wow I missed a lot in the past few days. Gratz to everyone who got the invite~

Maybe ill get second wave...

phi1ny3 · Dec 17, 2008

I'm back, and boy, I missed a lot!
Oh well, I could always try for second wave...

On the Private vs. Public section: I'm torn, but I think that private should be good, just let it be easier to get in than SBR, and also we should let the information that comes out be more public.

Also, maybe crew/clanish rules of posting (ie. if ur not contributing after getting in, you will be removed, or something like that).

Bowser King · Dec 17, 2008

O_O

I missed this....

I'll try for 2nd wave for sure

-

Bowser King

SCOTU · Dec 17, 2008

Anything that's worth being made public will be made public. that's a given.

As for the ease of getting in vs SBR, they're two different things, stop comparing them. The smash lab will welcome everyone it deems qualified to let in that it believes will help it.

Galaxy · Dec 17, 2008

It should be private. Honestly people will do it just to have a colorful name. Make it where you need to work to get in.

M.K · Dec 18, 2008

To help those of us who would like an oppurtunity to be admitted to the Smash Lab through the second wave, would the current Smash Researchers bestow another questoin upon us so that we may have an oppurtunity to show our worth?

infomon · Dec 18, 2008

Galaxy said:
1. It should be private. 2. Honestly people will do it just to have a colorful name. 3. Make it where you need to work to get in.

1. Why?
2. I agree.
3. It is.

... >.>
so uhh, smash lab.... whatcha workin' on.....?

Steel · Dec 18, 2008

data stuffz

comboking · Dec 18, 2008

I am making an ike Decay list and A guide. If that helps me get in to this fine establishment

ColinJF · Dec 18, 2008

An "Ike decay list" is pointless since AA and I already found the exact forumula for the stale move damage multipliers (among other things)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557

NinjaFoxX · Dec 18, 2008

Meta-Kirby said:
To help those of us who would like an oppurtunity to be admitted to the Smash Lab through the second wave, would the current Smash Researchers bestow another questoin upon us so that we may have an oppurtunity to show our worth?

or the could for everyone who is intrested, give each person a different question that they must give an answer to

Stroupes · Dec 18, 2008

Is the second question/topic coming?

Adapt · Dec 18, 2008

Meta-Kirby said:
To help those of us who would like an oppurtunity to be admitted to the Smash Lab through the second wave, would the current Smash Researchers bestow another questoin upon us so that we may have an oppurtunity to show our worth?

I rather like this idea.

Frogsterking · Dec 18, 2008

I am going to test which computers are the strongest on each of the neutral maps, then create a computer "Tier List" based on the results, just for kicks. I wasn't intending to join the Smash Lab, but if my testing would help with my application I might give it a shot.

St. Viers · Dec 18, 2008

why can't it just be limited accessability, letting everyone read, but not allow them to post? That way people who aren't "researchers" in title can help out, do their own tests, based off of your research as it's going on?

∫unk · Dec 18, 2008

get *****

M.K · Dec 18, 2008

JunkInTheTrunk said:
get *****

Reported. Completely unnecessary and rude.

Anyways, I'm standing by for a new question...or do you want us to pick something ourselves and research it?
I'm not sure what yo want us to do to be considered for the second wave.

Browny · Dec 18, 2008

how about a question from me instead :D
ive been trying to figure this out for a little while Re: ground attacks cancelling. ill update this when I get home and can upload my pics

updating...

phi1ny3 · Dec 19, 2008

djbrowny said:
how about a question from me instead :D
ive been trying to figure this out for a little while Re: ground attacks cancelling. ill update this when I get home and can upload my pics

I'm waiting for a good question! I think I have some resources after christmas break that could give me the frame by frame stuff.

Once again, trying for second wave.

Edit: What stuff needs demystifying so that I can get a chance? This is actually fun looking, and I would like to be part of something like this a little more. Just because some of us aren't researchers doesn't mean we can solve this stuff, so lets get over the "1st wave" stuff and get some questions rolling!

M.K · Dec 19, 2008

phi1ny3 said:
I'm waiting for a good question! I think I have some resources after christmas break that could give me the frame by frame stuff.

Once again, trying for second wave.

Same here.
A question would be nice.

Browny · Dec 19, 2008

OK heres what ive been thinking about recently...

How do we measure the disjoint on an attack? In my testing on the sonic boards, ive been attempting to locate the hitbox on every attack, and determine which potion of the attack is actually disjointed but its not as easy as i thought.

Initially i thought you simply measure the distance from a characters body to the enemies, but that only tells you the range of the attack, not the extent the attack is disjointed (for example, DK'sfsmash has quite large range, however the disjoint isnt that great since he leans so far forward into the attack, quite a number of characters can easily outrange + hit him if dk fsmashes first from just beyond his range)

A better way, I think, is to measure the distance between a characters body and the 'clank' when two disjointed attacks collide from maximum range. shown here is the extent of snakes utilt disjoint from max range when it clanks with max range marth fsmash

So i began to think how do we measure it... I know for a fact sonics fsmash is slightly disjointed, so i find the max range where it clanks to determine its true maximum range. From there, i will find the minimum range the character being tested can attack snakes uptilt before they take the hit from his uptilt and the distance between these two points is therefore the extent of the disjoint

However my theory is quickly disproved when i stand snake and lucas right next to each other... clearly Snakes utilt has reached Lucas' hurtbox (you dont need to measure it, everyone knows how large its range is) and the location of the clank spark has nothing to do with the extent of a disjoint. Lucas' fsmash definitely hits further than the clank would indicate

Either Sonics entire body is a disjoint, or my idea is very wrong

So i ask smash researches... How exactly do we go about finding the disjoint on attacks? If anyone knows a way I can determine an accurate way to draw a hitbox around the disjointed part of an attack (youd think marios fsmash would be easy... try again lol) id like to know

phi1ny3 · Dec 19, 2008

My first impressions:
Most attacks have different hitboxes. The ones that are clanking are the more powerful, inward hitbox that prioritizes with it (I'll see some other clanks and see if this guess is right).
I know you can use hacks to find hit/hurtboxes more easily (think color coded), but I'm not sure.

tr;dl version: I'm not sure, but the clanks have to do with priority of the different hitboxes, not the whole max range.

The Smash Lab: What is it?

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