Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

FadedImage · Jan 5, 2009

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6193097&postcount=330

that's a pretty big breakdown there, as far as range, edgeguarding, etc.

EL, I even said, side-b is only for revenge kills, at best. It's not viable or reliable, it's a spacing tool, that's it.

If we're talking about breaking something down, tell me exactly how shieldgrabbing fairs is garbage? With Marth's aerial control, there is no way you can fair our shield and get far enough away after to avoid a grab. I don't understand where the guesswork is.

Of course, the counter to this would be to continue shield pressure instead of backing off.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

The keyword is guaranteed. If ZSS dash attacks Marth's shield he can up b her.

Guaranteed.

No one can punish Marth after a spaced fair guaranteed.

The recovery time as well as the shield push back makes this impossible. If you think I will back off you can drop your shield and maybe chase me and side b and I might get hit because I didn't expect it, or I might just fast fall and roll towards you and grab after I roll because I did expect it.

That's a guessing game.

Are we on the same page now?

Now as for side b. This move is a spacing tool yes. But it has mediocre start-up and can be blocked/dodged on reaction. That's not good and it hurts this tools viability in the match-up. Which sucks because she really needs it to fight Marth.

Paralyzer shots are good. Marth can shield them or hit the, but the fact that she can chase them really helps out her zoning/control game. Marth has answers of course. He can dash under high ones for example or swat them.

As far as moveset goes there is no comparison. Move for move Marth is superior. All of Marth's moves have high utility and are useful. ZSS has more synergy in her moveset. Her moves are made to work together. She is made to flow, not throw out moves in any given scenario. This is good when she has control but not so good when she loses it.

Marth is different. He has moves for no matter what situation he is in and his moves have synergy simply because they are all good.

After Marth gets past b move zoning, what else is left? Marth wins the close range game by far. And she falls prey to his shield pressure due to her poor rolling and dodging and lacking good OoS options.

ZSS controls the fight on the onset of the match, but Marth has all the tools to take control. Their mobility is equal so it just comes down to movesets and Marth wins out.

She has better edgeguarding and better recovery but she needs to get Marth off the stage for that to apply and if Marth will be in control more often that not and the majority of the match will be onstage then edgeguarding really doesn't have a huge role.

ZSS also has nice combos and this is where her synergy kicks in. But her combo starters are D-smash and her shots which means there won't be many chances to get these off consistently. She can't go toe to toe in terms of hits either. Marth has a sword. If she challenges him she will usually lose. She has to keep him out or she loses.

But Marth has all the tools to penetrate that zoning and keep up his own zoning.

This is why I call it his advantage.

I await your rebuttal.

FadedImage · Jan 5, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
That's a guessing game.

I suppose you could call it that, I like to call it prediction, which is most of what Brawl is. Anyways, there's a large gap between "guessing game" and "garbage". I think it's an extremely viable tool in keeping Marth on his toes as far as short-hopping fairs is concerned.

Emblem Lord said:
Now as for side b. This move is a spacing tool yes. But it has mediocre start-up and can be blocked/dodged on reaction. That's not good and it hurts this tools viability in the match-up. Which sucks because she really needs it to fight Marth.

The point of side-b is not to connect, it's to force approaches and punish bad spacing. I never expect to hit with a side-b when I'm spacing with it, it's just a pleasant surprise if I do.

Emblem Lord said:
As far as moveset goes there is no comparison. Move for move Marth is superior. All of Marth's moves have high utility and are useful. ZSS has more synergy in her moveset. Her moves are made to work together. She is made to flow, not throw out moves in any given scenario. This is good when she has control but not so good when she loses it.

I kind of agree with this. There are a couple situations where ZSS can get stuck without options, however, I don't think it's such a ridiculous margin like you make it out to be. I don't think ALL of Marth's moves are of high utility. I think he relies on the great ones that are very adaptive, allowing him to use the same ones in many situations (f-air, side-b, up-b, etc.). The same goes for ZSS, she relies heavily on the same few moves to handle an array of situations, in fact, she probably has more viable options than Marth in most situations (since her moveset is so similar across the board).

I just don't see Marth mixing it up with an f-tilt or jab when he could use a side-b or d-tilt. It's the same for ZSS, she has solid options that she relies on.

Emblem Lord said:
After Marth gets past b move zoning, what else is left? Marth wins the close range game by far. And she falls prey to his shield pressure due to her poor rolling and dodging and lacking good OoS options.

You make it sound so easy. And plus, ZSS has great mobility, you may get a quick punish, but one hit and we're back to you trying to get to me.

Emblem Lord said:
Their mobility is equal so it just comes down to movesets and Marth wins out.

I fail to see the authenticity of this statement. How I look at it, we've got better ground speed, better jump speed, and equal aerial control. Marth has a better backroll, but we've got equal forward rolls, (plus all ZSS's know backroll is garbage and to avoid it)

Emblem Lord said:
ZSS also has nice combos and this is where her synergy kicks in. But her combo starters are D-smash and her shots which means there won't be many chances to get these off consistently.

and d-tilt, and n-air, and u-air, and dash attack, and up-b, and...

Emblem Lord said:
She can't go toe to toe in terms of hits either. Marth has a sword. If she challenges him she will usually lose. She has to keep him out or she loses.
But Marth has all the tools to penetrate that zoning and keep up his own zoning.

If she challenges the wrong area with the wrong moves, then absolutely, but it's the same way with everyone. Yes, Marth has the one-up in priority, but I think ZSS has the mobility and tools to deal with it.

Snakeee · Jan 5, 2009

I'm going to bed, but I'll continue it tomorrow.

For now I'll say that it's ironic how you're saying that her side B is almost useless right when I just started a new playstyle that avoids using that move except in the air or edgeguarding. Trust me, she does not need to be side Bing, in fact I don't feel the need to keep Marth away at all anymore. I welcome Marth to approach me, so that I can punish. Of course, Marth can do the same if I approached him. They are both really solid at pressuring though, so an approach can work out for either character depending on who is playing better.

Oh right, and I already said that ZSS can not shieldgrab Marth's F-air, because he can in fact hit her with dancing blade before her slow grab comes out but I don't think you guys caught that.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

D-smash and her shots are the ones that will actually hit in terms of combo starters. The rest are far more situational and ZSS should not even be attempting to dash attack Marth more then once or twice a match. That's risky for her and free damage if it's blocked.

Marth has greater aerial speed. He is ranked 11th and tied with G&W. ZSS is 12th. How do you define jump speed? How soon the person is in the air or how quickly they rise? I really don't think that plays any significant role in the match-up.

ZSS is a slightly faster runner though.

When I say synergy vs utility I'm mostly talking about overall play style for each character and how their movesets dictate how they are played. Marth relies on the basics of fighting games. He has fast high priority attacks, good punishers and moves to get him out of bad situations. Marth has moves that are better then others yes, but the point is that all his moves can stand alone as useful in various situations. He is a jack of all trades with high versatility.

ZSS has good zoning with her b moves and has high comboability. She is a little more niche then Marth is. She isn't quite as good at punishing and she isn't a jack of all trades. She is a specialist and her moves are meant to work together as the focal point of her strategy.

Once Marth penetrates it's one hit and now I have control of the match which is what you don't want.

The main point is that she doesn't have a ton of awesome zoning tools that are super effective vs Marth. They are ok. They got the job done. They are by no means AMAZING in this particular match-up.

That said, they STILL get the job done but when Marth gets in, ZSS is now in a bad position.
She must act and she has no answer that isn't a risk or that wont put her in danger. If ZSS runs up on Marth he can punish pretty much anything she tries. She doesn't have that over Marth.

This is what I see in this match. ZSS has zoning, better edge guarding and better recovery. Marth has better shield pressure, better kill moves, and better punishing.

ZSS has to play this tight game of keepaway and if she slips Marth is in and she is now hard pressed to reset the match.

Snakeee · Jan 5, 2009

Still up due to insomnia -_-.

I don't have to play keep away much against Marth, I WANT him to approach me. Didn't I just say that? And I start combos with falling up airs into up tilt or more up airs, then up B or B-air.
Also, I agree that dash attack is kind of useless for the most part in this match up.

You're still treating this match up like it was from the start, but i don't blame you. What I've discovered with her is very recent anyway.

The only Marth player that has experienced this first hand is Eazy. He actually fought pretty well against me and came close a lot to beating me in friendlies (actually he might have won a friendly before but I'm not sure). Then when I tried my new playstyle out on him it worked signifiicantly better. He even told me that his whole plan of getting inside was almost pointless since I focus on close range a lot more now.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

Congrats to you Franklin.

You created a style that may give some players trouble. I doubt you revolutionized the match-up though. Why? Because Marth does better up close in this match.

So what exactly did you figure out in this match that you think has changed it so much?

FadedImage · Jan 5, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
The rest are far more situational and ZSS should not even be attempting to dash attack Marth more then once or twice a match.

erm, d-smash is the situational one. d-tilt, n-air, and u-air will be connecting on a regular basis. As for dash attack, when combined with ZSS's great ground speed, it's a good punisher since it combos. We'll only use it when you -can't- block it.

Emblem Lord said:
Marth has greater aerial speed. He is ranked 11th and tied with G&W. ZSS is 12th. How do you define jump speed? How soon the person is in the air or how quickly they rise? I really don't think that plays any significant role in the match-up.

sorry, basically equal aerial control. and jump speed matters in terms of vertical mobility. ZSS can easily reach a Marth above her. Marth however, has a much more difficult time reaching her if she is above him. This factors into aerial combos and weaknesses, and also in ZSS's kill game, since high air U-airs can kill pretty well.

Emblem Lord said:
That said, they STILL get the job done but when Marth gets in, ZSS is now in a bad position.
She must act and she has no answer that isn't a risk or that wont put her in danger.

And this is exactly why ZSS isn't top tier. I agree that up-close, Marth has great shield pressure and punishment options. However, I don't think it's all that difficult to reset against a Marth. Of course, it depends on the stage and the amount of room you've got to work with.

Emblem Lord said:
If ZSS runs up on Marth he can punish pretty much anything she tries. She doesn't have that over Marth.

The point is, she doesn't have to.

Emblem Lord said:
This is what I see in this match. ZSS has zoning, better edge guarding and better recovery. Marth has better shield pressure, better kill moves, and better punishing.

I still don't see the better kill moves thing. I agree that they can be more powerful, but they also require a strict spacing to be truly effective. I find ground tippers to be a lot harder than air tippers, since you can weave in and out in the air, but you can only stutterstep a tiny bit on the ground. And if you fail to tipper, you just started decaying that smash, which will make it more difficult to KO with, etc etc.

Also, Snakeee, ZSS already wants everyone to approach her. That's her gameplan. Just because you started focusing on/practicing her close-range game doesn't mean you should ignore her mid-range game, side-b is still good. Just combine the two, you'll probably do even better.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

When I say combos I mean paralysis combos. The **** that makes you fear ZSS. Not generic two pieces that everyone has from aerials and ****. But yes ZSS has combos with those other moves too.

Marth has better kill moves period.

And U-smash has no tipper. The entire thing hits full force. And Marth doesn't need to tipper ZSS. She is kinda light ya know.

Snakeee · Jan 5, 2009

Before I leave to go to work, I'll point out the first major thing I saw wrong. ZSS has more aerial control than Marth does. It's much easier for ZSS to keep up a combo than Marth, and she has an extreme amount of control from below compared to Marth. I'd say Marth has slightly more control horizontally though.

ZSS survives a lot longer than you'd think btw. Besides being hard to edgeguard, using up air - down B to surive horizontally seems to go a long way.

Eazy23 · Jan 5, 2009

Snakeee said:
The only Marth player that has experienced this first hand is Eazy. He actually fought pretty well against me and came close a lot to beating me in friendlies (actually he might have won a friendly before but I'm not sure). Then when I tried my new playstyle out on him it worked signifiicantly better. He even told me that his whole plan of getting inside was almost pointless since I focus on close range a lot more now.

That day I won 3/5 friendlies but...hey who's counting :laugh:

Anywho, I do feel as though snakee has found a more effective strategy against marth. Of course, this is not to say he had a problem with marth before lol.

My main strat vs him about a month ago was to stay within the range where sideB can do nothing. Marth controls this area vs Zss COMPLETELY, however, zss is amazingly quick. While Snakee used to get scared (imo) when marth would be in that range, he now uses it to his advantage. He allows marth to approach, and quickly closes the gap and puts marth in that "way to close" position that we hate to be in. Zss can utilize her quick moves like utilt, jab, dsmash etc within this range.( Dsmash is a bit more dangerous.)

Basically our matches came down to me finding it MUCH easier to get inside of him due to almost no aggressive zoning whatsoever, but then having to retreat when realizing he now plays his character in a way that boxing ensues much more frequently.

In short, Snakee would usually try to run away once Marth got inside, but instead he closes the spacing gap n makes marth choose to either run or box.

Granted, we only played a few matches, and I wont say this is the end all be all to zss vs marth lol It was however, a nice change in strategy that found to be very very effective. Any char brave enough to force marth to box, is going in the right direction.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

Snakee: What the crap are you talking about?

When people say aerial control they usually mean horizontal speed. If you mean how quickly she rises then yes, she does rise quicker then Marth. I never disputed that.

Also stop judging match-ups off a handful of games where you tried something different.

It's garbage.

And no crap it's easier for ZSS to keep up combos.

SHE IS A COMBO ORIENTED CHARACTER AND MARTH IS NOT.

Crystanium · Jan 5, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
Get your anecdotal garbage out of here.

Dude, calm down.

Emblem Lord said:
Seriously though that proves nothing.

Who said that it did? Not I.

Emblem Lord said:
Break down the match-up. Piece by piece.

Ground game, killing ability, out of shield options, pressure game.

The whole ****ing nine yards.

Yeah, I can't do that, since I don't have a whole lot of match-up experience against Marth(a), and I'm fairly new to using Zero Suit Samus. Don't have a hissy fit. If you think what I said did not contribute to this thread, then ignore it.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

Don't take that garbage line too seriously.

Adapt · Jan 5, 2009

Dryn said:
I'm fairly new to using Zero Suit Samus.

I just noticed that your postbit icon has changed... did you taunt too much or something?

What prompted the switch?

Sesshomuronay · Jan 5, 2009

In my opinion zero suit and marth go 50/50.

Zero Suit Samus
-Can camp
-Can gimp marth
-Better Recovery
-Payalyzer works good against marth
-Her Plasma Whip outranges everything marth has(this goes for a lot of people tho)
-Marth has a blind spot below him and zero suits good at getting people in the air

Marth
-Can kill her faster
-Once hes in attack range he can be deadly
-Better Punishing
-Hard to punish if attacks are spaced right

Overall in my opinion its 50/50.

Snakeee · Jan 5, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
Snakee: What the crap are you talking about?

When people say aerial control they usually mean horizontal speed. If you mean how quickly she rises then yes, she does rise quicker then Marth. I never disputed that.

Also stop judging match-ups off a handful of games where you tried something different.

It's garbage.

And no crap it's easier for ZSS to keep up combos.

SHE IS A COMBO ORIENTED CHARACTER AND MARTH IS NOT.

Since when does aerial control only mean horizontally? She has far more control while having Marth above him, than if he had her in that position, so why can't I list that as an advantage? And I'm not just talking about how fast she rises into the air, the aerials themselves are faster than Marth's.

I'm not just judging this off of a handful of games either, the strategy itself has been developed primarily because of my brother, who knows EXACTLY how to punish ZSS' spacing game. He uses a lot of characters against me in friendlies, including Marth.
The strategy also works much better against Metaknight, and she actually has more aerial control than Meta for that matter because her aerials have more priority and range for the most part and Meta is far less mobile in the air. The same goes for Marth as he moves much slower in the air than she does.

And the fact that she is a much better at comboing is an advantage too is it not? o_O

Btw, if you're going to call me out on what I'm basing my info on....what are YOU basing YOUR info on???? No offense, but you haven't been active on the scene recently so you can't have much to base things off of. First hand experience is the most important of all, and I've played this match up many times now.

cba · Jan 5, 2009

I <3 being sigged

DeliciousCake · Jan 5, 2009

See this is why nobody likes EL; stop getting angry over a match-up discussion. If you have something to counter an argument with, do it.

Snakeee · Jan 5, 2009

DeliciousCake said:
See this is why nobody likes EL; stop getting angry over a match-up discussion. If you have something to counter an argument with, do it.

No, no I'm cool with EL. Trust me, he is not getting angry, and neither am I. It's just very hard to debate something with him and he is very resolute in what he says.

Crystanium · Jan 5, 2009

Adapt said:
I just noticed that your postbit icon has changed... did you taunt too much or something?
What prompted the switch?

I taunted a bit too much, I think.

Actually, I haven't quit maining Samus. I think it would be considered a waste of time if I did. This is actually a New Years resolution when it comes to the world of Smash. I want to improve with Zero Suit Samus, simply because I would be using the fullness of Samus. I'd also like to have a character who could perform better against another character if I were to brawl. For example, King Dedede can infinite Samus, but because of Zero Suit Samus' Down+B, I can get myself out of that kind of situation.

I still have yet to get used to using the d-smash properly. I see other ZSS players using it more effectively than I can at the moment. I'm kind of doing the dash to u-tilt thing, along with the jabs. I still am having trouble KO'ing my opponents earlier than I would hope. I'm usually KO'ing them around the 160% range, which is sad compared to my Samus, since with Samus, I can KO around 130%, and that's normal for Samus, unless you spike your opponents with her.

I also like the footstool jump that you can use with ZSS. I used it against the Marth player I was brawling yesterday. He grabbed the edge but I bounced right off of him. I was also screwing around with what you could do out of it, like performing another one after jumping off your opponent's head, or maybe using neutral B or Forward+B while flying away from your opponent to get in some spacing. So yeah, you guys might see me around here a bit more now. Oh, and like the Samus board where I have my favorite Samus mains (Tudor, Rohins, Xyro77), I also have some favorites here like you, Adapt, and ph00tbag.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

DelicousCake: wtf are you talking about and why the hell would you even say this is why no one likes you as if I'm supposed to give a ****? Which is false by the way. I can say with confidence that at least 50% of SWF knows who am, appreciates my contributions and would love to meet me IRL. The other 50% don't log on long enough to know who I am or read my threads to be exposed to my awesomeness.

Snakee: When you said control you mean when she has him in the air and that's a bad position for him correct? You didn't clarify. And I agree. But this isn't ZSS specific. Marth generally is trash when he is in the air.

But both of them can do this to each other. And again, ZSS rises faster but Marth moves faster horizontally.

And what am I basing my info on? Cut the crap plz. Don't try to invalidate me because I don't torture myself by going to Brawl tournies. This isn't some random scrub who doesn't understand what each character is capable of. It's not like I said ZSS can't try to lure Marth in and get close to take advantage of her really fast jab and tilts. That's just logic. I don't need to go to a tourney to know that her jab is fast or something. What I'm saying is what you are doing might be effective merely due to shock value and the fact that your opponents are weaker then you.

You originally made it sound like you based it off of handful of matches. This is when personal bias sets in. Plus you are better then Eazy which made it even more suspect. You are also better then your brother. Don't even try to refute that. It's fact.

As for combos being an advantage. Yeah, it's nice, but Brawl really isn't a combo oriented game and the chances for big damage through combos is few and far in between, especially in this match where ZSS faces off vs someone who rivals her in speed, mobility and options.

Vs like...Fox...yeah...go to town with your combos. lolz.

Sesshomuronay · Jan 5, 2009

kool your using ZSS now dryn. Shes one of my secondaries too. I reccomend using the Side-B a lot.

And I still think its an even matchup.

Snakeee · Jan 5, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
As for combos being an advantage. Yeah, it's nice, but Brawl really isn't a combo oriented game and the chances for big damage through combos is few and far in between, especially in this match where ZSS faces off vs someone who rivals her in speed, mobility and options.

This statement alone is enough to invalidate you on this part, my friend. You haven't seen much of the current metagame I believe, and a main part of my gameplay is to go for big combos. I'm not talking about only legitimate auto-combos, but ZSS can actually do that anyway because of the speed of her up air. She can usually pull another one off after the opponent airdodges the first and automatically hit.

Please don't bash Brawl or me while debating this either. If you don't care about the game at all, then why even waste your time posting over here?

sasook · Jan 5, 2009

lol, this has become more EL vs. Snakeee than Marth vs. ZSS

IMO, the matchup is even, like most people here have said.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

What you just said, the part about being able to hit someone by forcing an airdodge...that's not a combo.

There is a legit fighting game term for it. Seems like you just invalidated YOUR post. It's just an option select scenario and it covers an opponents basic options and forces them to do something. If they don't do something they get hit if they try to do something they will still probably get hit. There maybe one MAYBE two options they have where they won't get hit.

But..that's not a combo.

You are simply taking advantage of the engine and the fact that ZSS will recover soon enough to hit an opponent even if they airdodge.

And when I say Brawl isn't a combo oriented game, it's the truth. Or maybe you and I have very different ideas of what a combo oriented game looks like.

And where did I bash you?

Snakeee · Jan 5, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
What you just said, the part about being able to hit someone by forcing an airdodge...that's not a combo.

There is a legit fighting game term for it. Seems like you just invalidated YOUR post. It's just an option select scenario and it covers an opponents basic options and forces them to do something. If they don't do something they get hit if they try to do something they will still probably get hit. There maybe one MAYBE two options they have where they won't get hit.

But..that's not a combo.

You are simply taking advantage of the engine and the fact that ZSS will recover soon enough to hit an opponent even if they airdodge.

And when I say Brawl isn't a combo oriented game, it's the truth. Or maybe you and I have very different ideas of what a combo oriented game looks like.

And where did I bash you?

You take things wayyy too literally. Everytime I don't use the exact terminology you call me out on it. If it will make you feel better I'll start putting "combo" in quotes. But, even if you can't call something like that a combo technically, it is still unavoidable and a damage builder, so what does that matter? It has the same effect as a combo anyway.

And, I wouldn't say you were bashing me, I shouldn't have said that, but I just read too much into this
"Don't try to invalidate me because I don't torture myself by going to Brawl tournies."

cutter · Jan 5, 2009

I'm pretty sure a combo is defined as "A series of attacks the defender is unable to stop (meaning they're in hitstun) if the first hit of the sequence hits."

This is the absolute, undisputed, and technically correct definition of a combo. Airdodging =/= combo because your opponent has control over what he can do. He might not want to airdodge. He could possibly Up B with someone like GW.

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

It is torture. I'm not even talking about the game this time. I'm talking about how sh*t is run and how long it takes. Crap gets frustrating after awhile.

Anyway, usually in this scenario a character has at least one universal option and one character specific option. Marth can jump for example, or counter and then of course DI is a factor as well as fast falling. He might try to attack, but that's risky. Then again sometimes you just have to take a risk.

Marth has stuff like that too, but hell Marth has stuff like this on the ground where he can easily cover his opponent's options after they block a d-tilt or a spaced FF Fair. Most of the good characters have this stuff.

cba · Jan 5, 2009

Cyan names make my nipples hard >.>

DeliciousCake · Jan 5, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
DelicousCake: wtf are you talking about and why the hell would you even say this is why no one likes you as if I'm supposed to give a ****? Which is false by the way. I can say with confidence that at least 50% of SWF knows who am, appreciates my contributions and would love to meet me IRL. The other 50% don't log on long enough to know who I am or read my threads to be exposed to my awesomeness.

People may not like me, big deal. I treat most of the people on here like crap anyways. At least I don't base my self worth on how many people know me, or have little to no modesty.

cba · Jan 5, 2009

deliciouscake said:
people May Not Like Me, Big Deal. I Treat Most Of The People On Here Like Crap Anyways. At Least I Don't Base My Self Worth On How Many People Know Me, Or Have Little To No Modesty.

Major Burnnnnn

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

Ok, Imma spell it out for you.

That paragraph I made.

I was ******* around. I thought I made it painfully obvious by using such phrases as " my awesomeness" Who seriously says that about themselves?

Come on now.

Besides, I really don't see what you are setting out to accomplish other then troll me. And you are doing a poor job I might add.

DeliciousCake · Jan 5, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
Ok, Imma spell it out for you.

That paragraph I made.

I was ******* around. I thought I made it painfully obvious by using such phrases as " my awesomeness" Who seriously says that about themselves?

Come on now.

Besides, I really don't see what you are setting out to accomplish other then troll me. And you are doing a poor job I might add.

Really? I think you're pathetically covering your ***. If you want to keep butting heads (and lose poorly) you can take it to PM.

FadedImage · Jan 5, 2009

wellll, since the last 2 pages of discussion since I left have degenerated into EL defending himself from flames and arguing semantics about fighting game terminology, I deem this discussion over, for now.

I really haven't seen any proof/refutations for why Marth has the advantage here. I agree, there is the potential that Marth's close range game is more important than both ZSS's air game and edgeguarding game, but as of now, I find them equally important. If something develops further in the metagame to prove me wrong, we will easily change the numbers.

I'll do the write-up a bit later, and in the meantime we'll start debating...

Emblem Lord · Jan 5, 2009

Either way was it not you who came into this thread spewing such nonsense as this is why no one likes you as if it was relevant?

Yes, it was.

And no sir. We will not take this to pm's. You start **** with me in the forums, it will be finished on the forums.

I was talking about a match-up and you decided to show me your *** as if it mattered.

I'll lay it out for you.

What you think of me means nothing. Dunno why you may or may not have a problem with me. Hell, I don't even know who you are. Maybe I said something to you in the past, but it clearly wasn't important enough for me to remember so as far as I'm concerned you are unimportant as well. You have contributed nothing to this debate which is ironic because that is what you originally called me out on.

I'll make it easy for the both of us.

Say hi to my ignore list.

DeliciousCake · Jan 5, 2009

Emblem Lord said:
What you think of me means nothing. Dunno why you may or may not have a problem with me. Hell, I don't even know who you are. Maybe I said something to you in the past, but it clearly wasn't important enough for me to remember so as far as I'm concerned you are unimportant as well. You have contributed nothing to this debate which is ironic because that is what you originally called me out on.

I'll make it easy for the both of us.

Say hi to my ignore list.

Way to go. According to you, I'm a "poor troll" and what I say means nothing to you, yet you feel to go so far as to "ignore" me. Guess I'm much better than you think I am. Oh, and I called you out for being obnoxious, I never said you had nothing to add. But that's fine, since you supposedly can't read this anyways, I'll leave you to your life of ignorance.

TheZeroSuit · Jan 5, 2009

META KNIGHT

Pros:

Cons:

Final Verdict: 40:60

Matchup Advice: Coming Soon

Game Plan:
Suitpiece Strategy:
Long Range:
Medium Range:
Close Range:
In the air:
When Meta Knight is Recovering:
When ZSS is Recovering:
Matchup Unique Information:

Counterpick Advice:

Stages to Counter-pick:
Stages to Avoid:

Meta Knight Contributors:

xxxx

Meta Knight's Thread

Old Information:

TheZeroSuit said:
Orion's:

James Sparrow said:

At the last two tournaments I went to, 3 out of my 4 bracket losses were to metaknights. IMO this is ZSS's worst matchup for a number of reasons.

The first thing I'd like to bring up is the normal advantage of range that ZSS has over lots of characters. There are two moves that allow this advantage, the side b and the gun. Metaknight has answers to both of these. Because of his ridiculous dash speed, dash attack and dash grab, he is able to punish the in-between time of the side b. even if you use techniques like b sticking. If you spam the gun at him, he is able to come in from above, or use his b attack on you.

That brings me to the next point I'd like to make, metaknight's b attack is imbalanced. Even with ranged moves, it's nearly impossible to interrupt or hit him out of it. If you shield the move, you may be able to punish the lag if and only if you have a full shield as soon as it's hitting you. Otherwise your shield will run out and you will be hit by the move. The best option zss has is to just run from this move. I really haven't come accross any other way to counter this move, and when I play good metaknights, it is spammed against me.

Next I'd like to talk about metaknight's punishablility. Lots of high level players have been exercising the new brawl feature of being able to act quickly without shield lag. This allows characters to do tilts or even fast smashes out of shield. Against metaknight, however, there is no lag time in between his attacks, and trying to punish him out of your shield will just end up in you eating a dsmash.

Finally, Metaknight's small size makes a lot of zss's moves very difficult to hit with. Since many of her moves are high powered with small hit boxes, it makes for a difficult time when you're trying to land one of these attacks on such a small target.

For the given reasons I feel that metaknight is ZSS's worst matchup.

Click to expand...

Garde said:

MK is definitely one of Zamus's hardest matches, by far. You can side+B through both his side+B and neutral-B, but the smaller the stage, the harder it is to avoid his bullcrap. His inability to be comboed and RIDICULOUS priority with practically no lag on his moves makes him not only hard to punish, but hard to hit. His size only makes matters worse as it becomes even harder to land side+Bs since he's a small target and he can duck under several of her grounded moves. Sadly, all of the characters I play as (Zamus, Zelda, Link, and Lucario) suffer horrible matches against him due to speed and priority issues (in comparison with MK).

Click to expand...

Snakeee:

Snakeee said:

I'll give extra attention to this one because it is one of my favorite match ups and I have a lot of experience playing top Metaknight players.

ZSS can camp Metaknight and keep him at bay well. Retreating forward B's and paralyzer shots will do the trick for that. One thing to look out for, however is his tornado. This will stop both of your approaches, so whenever he does this I try to run to the other side of the stage and shield whatever is left of the attack. Metas often try to land right next to you and down smash after this, so I immediently short hop out of my shield after the tornado and B-air them after their D-smash comes out. If the tornado is close to the ground, ZSS can grab him out of it or down smash him. However, the better Metaknight players seem to come from above with it.

A MAJOR advantage that ZSS has on Metaknight is the fact that she can hit and even spike Meta out of his shuttle loop (Up-B). This removes one of his most broken attacks, and will help you big time. Most decent Metas will attempt to backwards shuttle loop as an edgeguard off the stage. It is possible to down B attack and spike him during it if you time it just right. Even if it doesn't spike, usually you will trade hits. When this happens most of the time ZSS gets sent towards the stage while Meta gets sent further away from it. So, if anyone is going to die from the clash, it's Metaknight.

ZSS can actually edgeguard Meta better than he can edgeguard her, especially with his Up-B taken away. I tend to be very aggressive with off the stage edgeguarding in general, while I hardly see any other ZSS mains do this. I use forward B a lot for this, and I even hit people with it while they're in the hourglass. This works against most characters including Metaknight.

When Metaknight recovers to the stage with his Shuttle loop and glide attack I do the following. Usually he'll Up-B from under the stage so I've learned to stay away from trying to D-Smash - B-air stage spike him like that.
Instead I'll shield when I expect the Up-B, then when he gets close with his glide (and he's going to glide attack)I usually short hop backwards and forward B him.

Metknights D-Smash out of their shield a lot, especially when you're behind them at higher percentages. Try to anticipate these and counterattack. What I normally do is shield the D-Smash and short hop out of shield and go for a B-air on the other side of him.

ZSS' Down B is perfect for getting out of Meta's combos in general. I don't mean to do the attack part, just the inital down B which will get rid of hitstun quickly, give you invincibility, and give you space to break out. An evasive ZSS is very hard for Metaknight to both combo and KO.

Click to expand...

So, now that the MK debates have settled, let's talk about this highly anticipated match-up!

DeliciousCake · Jan 5, 2009

I guess the first things to throw out into the fray would be Flip Jump and ZSS' tornado counters. Special footstool is especially useful when avoiding tornado, and I'm too lazy to go to the tornado counter thread, so if someone wants to give us a list of those, feel free. More later after I do stuff.

cba · Jan 5, 2009

METAKNIGHT can ****!NG GLIDE TOSS.
it gets irritating to discover something that makes him better.

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