TheRockSays
Smash Journeyman
I prefer using paralyzers on the ground and down b stool when he whorenados.
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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread
- Thread starter TheZeroSuit
- Start date
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Zero Suit Samus:
-Side-B is a great spacing tool as usual.
-Renders MKs Up-B useless with a well timed down-b
-Can escape the whorenado better than most characters.
-Can really put the camping on MK using side-bs, paralyzer shots and D-smashes.
-Jab is really fast which beats a lot of stuff
-Can actually gimp meta knight
-Is hard to edgeguard
Meta Knight:
-Can do stuff to zero suit when you get in close
-Side aerials beat zero suits(I think)
-If zero suits above MK she could be in trouble
Final verdict: 60-40 Zero Suits favor. Yes I am being serious I think zero suit counters MK. She can outcamp him, gimp him and really do some good stuff against MK. Your all probably gonna disagree and make the matchup like 50-50 or in MKs favor but I really dont see what MK has over zero suit.
-Side-B is a great spacing tool as usual.
-Renders MKs Up-B useless with a well timed down-b
-Can escape the whorenado better than most characters.
-Can really put the camping on MK using side-bs, paralyzer shots and D-smashes.
-Jab is really fast which beats a lot of stuff
-Can actually gimp meta knight
-Is hard to edgeguard
Meta Knight:
-Can do stuff to zero suit when you get in close
-Side aerials beat zero suits(I think)
-If zero suits above MK she could be in trouble
Final verdict: 60-40 Zero Suits favor. Yes I am being serious I think zero suit counters MK. She can outcamp him, gimp him and really do some good stuff against MK. Your all probably gonna disagree and make the matchup like 50-50 or in MKs favor but I really dont see what MK has over zero suit.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Not a big deal at all, but a small contributor to why I only keep one piece.
The info on this match up like the others is outdated but some of it is still true. Metaknight is the reason I began my new playstyle btw. Spacing forward B's and D-smash does leave you vulnerable, and is not really worth it against someone who knows the match up well.
Ground
65/35 Metaknight
Meta obviously has the advantage here. His fast shieldgrab, makes it hard to make use of your jab and tilts, but they are still useful if you have pressured him a bit or at the right point of an aerial approach. His tornado is so-so against ZSS. It's not too hard to avoid for her, and she can use down B (sometimes with the special footstool) to avoid it a majority of the time. A missed tornado can be punished with a dash attack or grab if Meta is close enough to ZSS at the end of it.
ZSS basically has to bait Meta to leave an opening. Although his approaches are hard to punish, there are instances where she can counterattack. If he goes for aerials, she can up air him out of shield at the right moment unless the approach is too low. If it is too low however, she can jab or up tilt him out of shield. He can put a ton of pressure on her though, so this can not remain effective forever. If Meta goes into the air, falling up airs become very effective and lead into nice combos.
Air
60/40 ZSS
Of course, this is where you want to keep the battle as ZSS. ZSS is more mobile, and has more range and priority than Meta here. Up airs are very key in this match up. It's disjointed hitbox usually beats meta's aerials from any direction. B-air beats his aerials by great range, and is very safe against him for the most part. This isn't to say that Meta is defenseless in the air, becuase this is not true. The fact that his aerials last so long messes up with ZSS' airdodging (like her up airs but to a lesser effect). His up B is a good follow up to them as well, and tornado can be useful in the air also to punish airdoges, but sometimes leave him open. ZSS is also a little better at avoiding aerial approaches because of her down B.
Edgeguarding
55/45 Metaknight
Metaknight has a very slight advantage here. If he makes just the right reads while ZSS is recovering he can punish it, and on occasion, gimp her. If ZSS goes for a tether recovey, and metaknight gets in just the right position, he can actually hit her with an aerial as she is in the start of the grabbing animation.
Meta's Up B is a double-edged sword for edgeguarding ZSS. Whoever predicts the other's move correctly will have the payoff, since ZSS' down B can counter this. In fact, if she does it at just the right moment, Metaknight will be spiked out of his Up B. If the timing is close, but ZSS does the down B a little early, the attacks will usually clash. Metaknight will often be sent further off the stage, and ZSS will be sent back towards the stage. However, if Metaknight waits until after the Down B comes out, he will hit ZSS and not get hit himself at all. This results in a KO at a relatively low percentage.
From the edge, ZSS doesn't have much of a problem at all in recovering. She is one of the best ledgecampers in the game (close to Metaknight) and she can safely shoot paralyzer shots or do Side-B's until Meta gets hit, or it hits hit shield. Either way she can usually just down B footstool over his head after that. Her get up attack while over 100% is very useful as well, and if Meta shields it, she actually can shield herself before Meta's d-smash will come out.
ZSS' edgeguarding isn't too much offstage. The best she can usually go for is one or two forward B's off the stage from a safe distance. It's usually great in most match ups, but it's too risky against Meta to try for much besides the forward B. If it does connect though it's pretty powerful. This is considering that the Meta player knows how to recover well against her though. If they go for the typical recoverys like gliding or side-B these can easily be punished by her side B.
While Meta is on the edge, ZSS has quite a few options. She can go for a down smash, b-air, up air, or side-B and be relatively safe since these outspace anything he can do. If he goes for a ledge hop aerial, it's good for her to shield it and do an up air, jab, or up tilt out of shield.
KO ability
55/45 ZSS
Metaknight's main KO moves are Up B, Downsmash, F-smash, and N-air.
Up B often KO's the earliest, since it is often offstage, or hits her in an angle that makes it hard for her to recover and is pretty strong compared to his other moves.
Downsmash is strong too, and is a bit hard to punish.
F-smash is rare to hit with, but is pretty powerful. It's only real practical use is as a punisher.
N-air is a good move to kill with offstage.
ZSS's KO moves include B-air, Up-air, Side-B, F-air, and Down B.
B-air is the most viable to KO with than anything else. It's abnormally powerful for the speed and range of the attack, and isn't that hard to hit with.
Up-air is the 2nd most viable surprisingly, since it's not too hard to KO Meta with in the air, and it's the easiest to hit with out of these.
Side-B is hard to hit Meta with, but it's not very punishable when used in the air, and has pretty solid kill power.
F-air is like the poor man's B-air XD.
Down B is her strongest move, and can be used in the middle of an aerial assault randomly and will often punish an airdodge. It's mainly used to punish though, like if he's in the middle of a smash attack.
Overall ZSS has more attacks that can kill well, and it's actually easier for her to hit hit with a kill move than it is for him.
Wow I can't believe I ended up typing basically a whole guide on this again. I feel like I got a little lazy on the KO section, but I think that's good for the most part. I give this match up 55/45 Metaknight now.
TKD
Smash Lord
Snakeee gave a really complete overview.
MK wins at close range due to the speed and range he has on his dtilt and ftilt, which don't allow reliable punishment. Aside from this, both characters are better from below their opponent, but the most ZSS can stall her fall is an air jump and her downB, while MK can stall out his fall and have more airdodges before touching the ground or being hittable due to his multiple jumps.
ZSS's grabs put MK in uncomfortable positions (above opponent), but so do MK's...also Bair is also very easy to see coming so it shouldn't KO that often. Easy to block and easy to DI + reduce momentum. MK's dsmash and shuttle loop, if kept fresh, can KO unexpected and reliably at high enough %'s.
Both characters can recover well. MK can avoid performing drill rush when he can get overB'd/dsmashed, and avoid performing risky shuttle loops. ZSS can recover by performing downB if chased or teathering back if the opponent just stands there (expecting a downB). Unfortunate gimps can probably still happen to ZSS players, though.
If both players play it right, it's either 6/4 or 5.5/4.5 MK. At the moment, I think it's 6/4, but I'd have to play FadedImage again (I have before). He's the best ZSS player I've seen. I think we both had matchup inexperience when we played (the only really good MK players in East Coast are diesuperfly's and mine, unless you count someone else who's probably not as good). Maybe next time we get to play, it'll be clearer what's going on.
I'd like it to be an even matchup, but ZSS as a character, can easily end up in uncomfortable positions, due to her only having really good, quick moves from really close range, and some long range options. She has no quick options that outrange opponents, and like every other character in this game (except weirdoes like Kirby and maybe others), is at a disadvantage when above her opponent.
MK wins at close range due to the speed and range he has on his dtilt and ftilt, which don't allow reliable punishment. Aside from this, both characters are better from below their opponent, but the most ZSS can stall her fall is an air jump and her downB, while MK can stall out his fall and have more airdodges before touching the ground or being hittable due to his multiple jumps.
ZSS's grabs put MK in uncomfortable positions (above opponent), but so do MK's...also Bair is also very easy to see coming so it shouldn't KO that often. Easy to block and easy to DI + reduce momentum. MK's dsmash and shuttle loop, if kept fresh, can KO unexpected and reliably at high enough %'s.
Both characters can recover well. MK can avoid performing drill rush when he can get overB'd/dsmashed, and avoid performing risky shuttle loops. ZSS can recover by performing downB if chased or teathering back if the opponent just stands there (expecting a downB). Unfortunate gimps can probably still happen to ZSS players, though.
If both players play it right, it's either 6/4 or 5.5/4.5 MK. At the moment, I think it's 6/4, but I'd have to play FadedImage again (I have before). He's the best ZSS player I've seen. I think we both had matchup inexperience when we played (the only really good MK players in East Coast are diesuperfly's and mine, unless you count someone else who's probably not as good). Maybe next time we get to play, it'll be clearer what's going on.
I'd like it to be an even matchup, but ZSS as a character, can easily end up in uncomfortable positions, due to her only having really good, quick moves from really close range, and some long range options. She has no quick options that outrange opponents, and like every other character in this game (except weirdoes like Kirby and maybe others), is at a disadvantage when above her opponent.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
I agree with most of what you said except when it came to KO's.
I would say they would be pretty even here or slightly in MK's favor.
Probably a 50/50 would work well. I say this because you have to remember as for ZSS her Side-B and Down-B aren't very reliable kill moves. They are both pretty predictable and easy to dodge. (Same for MK's Fsmash for the matter). Also remember ZSS doesn't have the best recovery so a lot of her deaths will come from MK gimping her offstage, therefore again overriding MK's need for a KO straight from the stage.
Also there is the fact that a MK who knows the matchup would know basically all of ZSS kill moves are in the air, and keep the fight grounded as much as possible.
Just my opinions on the matter, ZSS definetly CAN land some good KO's on MK but I think to say she has an advantage with this on MK might be a little too much.
Vorguen
Smash Champion
I agree with most of what you said except when it came to KO's.
I would say they would be pretty even here or slightly in MK's favor.
Probably a 50/50 would work well. I say this because you have to remember as for ZSS her Side-B and Down-B aren't very reliable kill moves. They are both pretty predictable and easy to dodge. (Same for MK's Fsmash for the matter). Also remember ZSS doesn't have the best recovery so a lot of her deaths will come from MK gimping her offstage, therefore again overriding MK's need for a KO straight from the stage.
Also there is the fact that a MK who knows the matchup would know basically all of ZSS kill moves are in the air, and keep the fight grounded as much as possible.
Just my opinions on the matter, ZSS definetly CAN land some good KO's on MK but I think to say she has an advantage with this on MK might be a little too much.
Lucario... lol >.<
canthandletheSpeculosity
Smash Journeyman
Why isn't this thread stickied?
Adapt
Smash Lord
You'd be surprised how good of a recovery ZSS really has. It's easily better than most of the cast, both in variety of options and sheer distance
Try to find a Mod to do it, It took my vid thread a long time to be stickied, even when I asked
I can get it done if you want. You just have to know who to ask.
Glyph?.....
From what ive seen, you do.
on my behalf the ZSS boards Thank you.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
Fixed. Newfag. Lulz.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
new***s need to lurk moar.
I'll post my match-up stuff pretty soon, maybe later tonight. (ty TKD for teh compliment btw)
I'll post my match-up stuff pretty soon, maybe later tonight. (ty TKD for teh compliment btw)
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Lol im surprised nobodys questioned how I think its in ZSS favor.
Blad01
Smash Lord
The Falco boards are discussing ZSS match-up : http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=215415.
Please contribute
Please contribute
Blad01
Smash Lord
Vorguen
Smash Champion
True she does have a well-suited recovery but nonetheless she can still be easily gimped. If she is recovering from below she can be edgehogged extremely easy and her tether won't grab the edge.
If she is forced to use her B-down the arch/trajectory on her little jump is very predictable and easy to punish, especially if you are Meta Knight and can be offstage for your entire Grandmother's colonoscopy and still be okay fight and return to stage.
FadedImage
Smash Journeyman
I don't see how you can edgehog us extremely easily, if we recover from below it's because we can jump back to the edge, which means we can hit you off of it before we need to tether. Besides, we'll probably have already tethered before you even get close to it (the length of side-b is absurd).
I don't see how you would force a down-b and then still be able to punish. Meta Knight's aerial speed is garbage, there's no way he could make us use the down-b AND punish.
I actually think the tables are turned on this one. Meta Knight has to be extremely careful how he recovers in this match-up. If he tries to go high, he may catch a rising u-air or up-b considering how bad his aerial speed is (slow target means easier hits). If he side-bs to the edge, he's gonna get d-smashed off the edge and either spiked or b-air'd into the wall. If he tries shuttle loop cancelling, we can space a d-smash for that as well (it is rather obvious when a MK drops low at the perfect distance for it). Ledgehopping also gets punished by d-smash. D-smash is just one of those few moves that has more priority than MK's recovery, and you gotta watch out for it.
Snakeee
Smash Master
D-smashing would work on everything you said except for ledge hopped attacks, if the meta knows what he's doing. Top Metaknight players hardly ever recover like that at all against me though. I don't use D-smash much at all anymore while meta is on the ledge, because my brother will be able to hit me with an aerial everytime (maybe that's just him though).
Actually, speaking of my brother (Shadow111 on the boards), I am 100% positive that he is the best Metaknight in this particular match up by FAR. It's ridiculous, after playing against my ZSS so much, I can very rarely beat him and I have a much better chance using someone else. I also feel bad though because I give him mostly only practice in that one match up lol. He uses various characters on me so I get more practice, but I have much less practice against his Meta than he has on my ZSS.
Actually, speaking of my brother (Shadow111 on the boards), I am 100% positive that he is the best Metaknight in this particular match up by FAR. It's ridiculous, after playing against my ZSS so much, I can very rarely beat him and I have a much better chance using someone else. I also feel bad though because I give him mostly only practice in that one match up lol. He uses various characters on me so I get more practice, but I have much less practice against his Meta than he has on my ZSS.
DeliciousCake
Smash Lord
I only wonder how he would fare against a different ZSS user.
TheRockSays
Smash Journeyman
^took my words. snakeee your aproach is mostly side b try mixing abit of that paralyzer more. If he comes through the air whip him.Whorenado i leave that up 2 u.
Snakeee
Smash Master
What are you talking about. I don't even play like that anymore, and I've been saying that everywhere. Metaknight ***** the paralyzer, he can just tornado you even from across the stage because it lags too much. You can't really camp Metaknight when they know the match up.
And I'm pretty confident that my little brother would consistently 2-3 stock any other ZSS main, including Claw. I'm not trying to put Claw down, it's just that my brother plays the match up almost everyday and no other ZSS main can know how to deal with a Metaknight that knows how to fight ZSS almost perfectly.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Yoshi gets rapeeeddd by Meta. I know Pride, he's the best yoshi player, and it's his worst match up. My metaknight can beat him.
No offense to PRiDE but bull shiiiiiit. Bwett is. He beats Dojo, consistently. Also, PRiDE's worst match up is Wolf. Or it was. I don't have much trouble with him, I'm one of the better Yoshi's. But way outta practice with him.
EDIT:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t11GYdJ0Gd0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrcMLqFwI6M
EDIT #2: There are more, but not posted.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Well, he's ONE of the best Yoshi players. I don't know much about any others actually, but I'll check out those vids in a bit.
Yeah, he's prolly the best in EC, if not definitely upper EC. Scat is good but doesn't go to alot of tournies. Mmac is good, DarkLeviathan, Yoster, Rel12, and Furbs are the main ones.
TheRockSays
Smash Journeyman
how dare you not mention bum O_o best DK player in NYC i believe hes number 1 splitting the tittle with someone else.
NickRiddle
#negativeNick
I think they were talking about Yoshi players...
TheRockSays
Smash Journeyman
oh i see it now :/
Dojo
Smash Champion
Lol, he does not beat me consistently. I generally 2 stock him everytime we play. Those friendlies were at 4 in the morning. I 3 and 2 stocked him in tourney at Hobo 11 the very next day of those videos. Now he rarely gets a match off me.
Snakeee we need to get a **** load of matches at CoT4. I'm excited to see your ZSS.
Snakeee we need to get a **** load of matches at CoT4.
I'm excited to see your ZSS.
Snakeee
Smash Master
Sure, I'll make sure to be on top of my game unlike Cat4 -_- . You still want to do a MM? I'll just do friendlies too though, it's whatever you want. I'm just excited to play top players from just about every region...and hopefully beat them lol (don't mean that in a cocky way).Lol, he does not beat me consistently. I generally 2 stock him everytime we play. Those friendlies were at 4 in the morning. I 3 and 2 stocked him in tourney at Hobo 11 the very next day of those videos. Now he rarely gets a match off me.
Snakeee we need to get a **** load of matches at CoT4.
Dojo
Smash Champion
I'm down for both.
Haha I know what you mean. I'm pumped too. Everybody wants to do well.
Haha I know what you mean. I'm pumped too. Everybody wants to do well.
Bums FK is BEAST. i mean, come on, he just *****.
TheRockSays
Smash Journeyman
DK.........lol for some odd reason the last time i went to the bum tourney i ended playing him first in singles and doubles xD well in singles he 2 stocked me the first one like i got gimped like 3 times O_o, in the second one i picked Final D i got him down to one stock i hate smashville very bad for ZSS.
mental note to self, CP Rainbow Cruise.