tekkie
Smash Master
Maybe that's my first problem
Edit: We should probably summarize this stuff. Maybe move onto the next character?
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Out of order, new matchup thread coming soon!
- Thread starter Sesshomuronay
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Edit: We should probably summarize this stuff. Maybe move onto the next character?
KRDsonic
Smash Master
Have we covered stages to pick against Snake yet?
Neutrals (other than Battlefield, Snake can abuse the heck out of that stage) seem like they'd be good against him. I'm not too sure about Rainbow Cruise, but I would assume it's worse for Snake than it is for Wolf. I would just take them to Smashville.
From what I've heard, you should ban Halberd against Snake.
Neutrals (other than Battlefield, Snake can abuse the heck out of that stage) seem like they'd be good against him. I'm not too sure about Rainbow Cruise, but I would assume it's worse for Snake than it is for Wolf. I would just take them to Smashville.
From what I've heard, you should ban Halberd against Snake.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
I feel that I actually do best at Battlefield (excluding Smashville). But yes, SV is definitely the place.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Alright I updated the post and added stage stuff. Lylat is something you would want to ban vs snake right cause of gimped recovery and explosives and such. If anyone disagrees with any of that stuff or wants me to change something just let me know. And I added some viable bans for metaknight which include rainbow cruise and lylat cruise, so if those are wrong or if there are other stages for a wolf player to ban vs metaknight let me know about that too.
And well I guess i'll also start the wario part. And sorry for taking awhile to update the thread, I've been busy with stuff irl.
And well I guess i'll also start the wario part. And sorry for taking awhile to update the thread, I've been busy with stuff irl.
Wario is a stupid character. He lives forever, kills fast and is way too mobile for such a fat guy sexy beast. Warios favourite tacitc is aircamping but it won't work vs Wolf since we're just as fast in the air .... our bair anfd fair also beat almost all of Wario's aerials ...
keep that in mind: try to beat his aerials, not shield them. I learned that the had way...
retreating fair is the best move against Wario since it beats all his aerials as well as his bites...the only thing that can beat our fair is his uair but you can shine/blaster reversal if you see it coming. We have no particular move he can SDI out so you can always avoid the fart. Don't be too grab happy either since Wario can bait and avoid grabs extremely well.
Overall I think it's slightly in Warios favour ... his weight/ko power beats ours. Otherwise it's pretty even ... 45/55 Wario's favour on starter stages.
keep that in mind: try to beat his aerials, not shield them. I learned that the had way...
retreating fair is the best move against Wario since it beats all his aerials as well as his bites...the only thing that can beat our fair is his uair but you can shine/blaster reversal if you see it coming. We have no particular move he can SDI out so you can always avoid the fart. Don't be too grab happy either since Wario can bait and avoid grabs extremely well.
Overall I think it's slightly in Warios favour ... his weight/ko power beats ours. Otherwise it's pretty even ... 45/55 Wario's favour on starter stages.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
Most of Wolf's aerials can beat out Wario's if spaced correctly. If you shield his fsmash punish it with ur own fsmash or upsmash if your close enough. I believe Wario has a buffered CG on wolf from 30% to like 200% but its not practical no one has ever done it on me before but i have been told he can O__O. Dont try to shieldgrab him out of any aerials your jus asking to get punished if you do.
For stages i'd say ban Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise
For stages i'd say ban Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise
Gindler
Smash Champion
Wolf's Bair is too good in this matchup, such a pain for any wario. I like SH reflector OOS in this MU too, I guess any aerial would work too. Wolf is probably the one of the easiest characters for wario to bike spike. Watch for wario's Fsmash and you can live till pretty alright percents but it's still wario. Oh and save the Dsmash until at least 120 unless you want wario living to insane percents on you.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
on wario shine>aaa is true combo. also abuse the hell out of bair.and never try shineing them when they r grounded cause they will just fsmash which means they take like 2-5 damage and kill u
tekkie
Smash Master
Dair and OOS nair are pains. Bthrow -> ftilt/fsmash is annoying. Uair is annoying as well.
Spacing bairs against someone as maneuverable as Wario is difficult also.
Spacing bairs against someone as maneuverable as Wario is difficult also.
ArcPoint
Smash Lord
His Nair is really good. You beat Wario horizontally, so abuse that as much as physically possible. Keep him in his shield. And refrain from using yours as little as possible (bite, it's such a good move, it eats Falcon punches for breakfast)
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
I find that you should abuse your horizontal advantage as much as possible. Watch out for his bite and its better to just avoid getting close to him entirely by spacing B-airs and F-airs as much as possible. Grabbing him is really hard so only try it if you're sure you'll get him cause he could easily just jump away because of his good aerial maneuverability.
choice_brawler
Smash Journeyman
grab release usmash is prolly the best option, unless if grab release dair works near an edge. fair and bair also are good if usmash is stale.
_Kain_
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2009
- Messages
- 2,154
grab release isn't guaranteed though
If you get him on the edge (or some other place where you force an air break) I hear we have an infinite on wario. Not really practical though.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Oh yea and I'm leaving in a few days for a two week trip. If you guys could like finish discussing wario without me I could like update it when I get back. It would also be good if someone like made a thread or announced a new character and started a discussion for it, I could add the info to this thread whenever I get back.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Er bump I guess. Lets like pickup wherever we left off. If possible I'd like to get some more general info and counterpicks.
And could someone please explain this infinate that we can supposedly do on wario? I'd like to put it there just so people can know even if it is unlikely.
And could someone please explain this infinate that we can supposedly do on wario? I'd like to put it there just so people can know even if it is unlikely.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Ok thanks I'll go add it to the guide then.
Edit: I added a little bit about it, I hope its correct cuz I dunno how to do it really but from looking at it I think thats how its performed. If I got something wrong them someone please correct me.
And who has the advantage in this matchup? I think its in wario's favor but I wanna get some second opinions too on the size of the advantage(or disadvantage).
Edit: I added a little bit about it, I hope its correct cuz I dunno how to do it really but from looking at it I think thats how its performed. If I got something wrong them someone please correct me.
And who has the advantage in this matchup? I think its in wario's favor but I wanna get some second opinions too on the size of the advantage(or disadvantage).
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
I don't have anything to say about Wario, sorry, but I am a perfectionist and I noticed that Snake and Metaknight have the advantage spelled out whilst Wario has the numbers. I'd recommend you use numbers alone.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
I guess we could do numbers again, I just don't like em.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
That's fine, just be consistent, I don't want to have a panic attack. And remember, Sess, we're definitely gonna be updating these match-ups; the gang here on the Wolf boards need a lot more experience to judge the match-ups to a T.
Dv8tor
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2008
- Messages
- 226
Yeah but these discussions turn into mud slinging and pissed off people who main whoever we're discussing. I don't know what we could do to fix that crap other than have a mod control this thread. (Not likely)
I honestly don't visit this page simply for the fact that people aren't discussing half the time. I hope it will change and we can glean helpful information from here in the future.
I honestly don't visit this page simply for the fact that people aren't discussing half the time. I hope it will change and we can glean helpful information from here in the future.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
And I don't know what else to say: that's the point. No one really has anything to say. I can't say I've had the pleasure of playing a Wario before, at least a good one. Right now, the Wolf boards is in a bad situation. We can't really rely on our intelligence for some match-ups.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Maybe if we had more opinions from the opposition.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
That would definitely help. But we lose a balance we would normally have with Wolf experience. For now, that's all we can do.
I'll be playing a Wario Saturday, so I'll say what I can.
Despite the fact that I am a complete nub in regards to Wolf. :/
But might as well report what Wario can do to Wolf.
Dv8tor
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2008
- Messages
- 226
I have played a Wario in training and he is irritating in the air, his air game shuts down a lot of options when Wolf is on the ground and he's bouncing over your head. When it comes to bairing, it seems to work well as Wario is easily out ranged by it. The thing that helped me a lot was using my shine to mess up his jumping tactics and beat him senseless on the ground. That's the only thing I really know, my friend plays him well but it's not his main so take what you will.
Oh I think shine gimping works on him, his up B is terrible.
Oh I think shine gimping works on him, his up B is terrible.
Jumpshine. A lot. I was going to type more but then decided that I'm lazy.
That being said, I think it's a slight advantage for wario.
That being said, I think it's a slight advantage for wario.
MidnightAsaph
Smash Lord
It sounds like Wolf is better. Like I've said, no Wario experience. The only thing that I can imagine him having over us is that stupid *** bite move.
If we outrange him, I smell ****. (at most 55:45). Again, no expert.
If we outrange him, I smell ****. (at most 55:45). Again, no expert.
tedeth
Smash Master
I play both characters and have a decent amount of experience as wolf against wario. If you can create some distance wario is not an issue for wolf. But if that Wario gets up in your grill. Ho ho. Not good. Wolf beats wario laterally in the air, ie. his fair/bair > wario's fair/bair, but wario wins vertically.
On a large stage I can see this matchup being close to even, HOWEVER, if your wolf gets grabbed and chaingrabbed, get *****. Wario can get grabs quite easily with decent grab range and good setups for the grabs. Also, Wario gimps Wolf, Wolf can't gimp wario.
The best way to be successful in this matchup is keep your distance, don't let him pressure you and for the love of god don't get grabbed at cg %s. (The cg is hard though it has to be buffered pretty much perfectly)
40:60 Wario's advantage imo.
On a large stage I can see this matchup being close to even, HOWEVER, if your wolf gets grabbed and chaingrabbed, get *****. Wario can get grabs quite easily with decent grab range and good setups for the grabs. Also, Wario gimps Wolf, Wolf can't gimp wario.
The best way to be successful in this matchup is keep your distance, don't let him pressure you and for the love of god don't get grabbed at cg %s. (The cg is hard though it has to be buffered pretty much perfectly)
40:60 Wario's advantage imo.
Any tips against the cg? I've heard horrible things about it but never had them confirmed with evidence from a match...
tedeth
Smash Master
Yeah there are horrible, horrible posibilities. It's a hard cg to buffer correctly it's pretty much frame perfect I think. Most Wario's will be unable to do it so that's why it doesn't break the matchup too badly.
Here's a vid with the cg on falco http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1p5Dd7TMYM.
It works on Falco from 52%-130% if dthrow is fresh. Sound bad, but wait!
On wolf it works from 20%-230%. I've never seen it go that high but that's what the numbers are apparently supposed to be. I was sceptical of the cg at all untill I saw Fiction do it multiple times at EVO.
As I said, most Warios won't be able to do it but if you come up against one that CAN, just don't get grabbed at low %s. I think once you're over 35-40% you can shine out of a fresh dthrow.
If the Wario can cg perfectly the matchup is terrible.
Here's a vid with the cg on falco http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1p5Dd7TMYM.
It works on Falco from 52%-130% if dthrow is fresh. Sound bad, but wait!
On wolf it works from 20%-230%. I've never seen it go that high but that's what the numbers are apparently supposed to be. I was sceptical of the cg at all untill I saw Fiction do it multiple times at EVO.
As I said, most Warios won't be able to do it but if you come up against one that CAN, just don't get grabbed at low %s. I think once you're over 35-40% you can shine out of a fresh dthrow.
If the Wario can cg perfectly the matchup is terrible.
Oh sweet, so it can't be fresh past 40%? That's reassuring. (I'm being serious btw)
Also, someone else mentioned this, the thing where wolf sets a starting % handicap. What do you guys think about doing that for 40% against good warios, pikachu (maybe, if it works, idk), and falco?
Also, someone else mentioned this, the thing where wolf sets a starting % handicap. What do you guys think about doing that for 40% against good warios, pikachu (maybe, if it works, idk), and falco?
tekkie
Smash Master
i'd rather run away like a ***** until i get 40% from electricity or something.Oh sweet, so it can't be fresh past 40%? That's reassuring. (I'm being serious btw)
Also, someone else mentioned this, the thing where wolf sets a starting % handicap. What do you guys think about doing that for 40% against good warios, pikachu (maybe, if it works, idk), and falco?
I made the experience that being aggressive is a good choice against Wario. If he wants to do air crap, just pressure him with Bair, it beats out his aerials and doesn't last as long as his air dodge, so he can hardly punish you. Mix this Bair game up with Blaster and shine, that works if he wants to bite your Bair or gets a good position to Dair you.
SH and FH blasters limit his options, but be sure that you space them correctly, otherwise he can AD trough them and punish you.
Warios like to fake approachs with SH AD, just punish their landing lag with Fsmash, if Wario approachs from above with a Dair and spaces away from you afterwards, just punish them with Fsmash again or jump shine the Dair and follow up with Bair/Fair, Wolf is one of the few chars who really has weapons against his great spacing game, make use of it.
If he tries to approach with SH aerials, use retreating Fair, it's > all of his aerials.
And a random Info: Wario is the only Char who gets hit by Wolfs Dair after a foot stool, and you can set up a foot stoll with a SH shine with DI towards him.
(SH shine towards Wario > foot stool > Dair is a true combo)
SH and FH blasters limit his options, but be sure that you space them correctly, otherwise he can AD trough them and punish you.
Warios like to fake approachs with SH AD, just punish their landing lag with Fsmash, if Wario approachs from above with a Dair and spaces away from you afterwards, just punish them with Fsmash again or jump shine the Dair and follow up with Bair/Fair, Wolf is one of the few chars who really has weapons against his great spacing game, make use of it.
If he tries to approach with SH aerials, use retreating Fair, it's > all of his aerials.
And a random Info: Wario is the only Char who gets hit by Wolfs Dair after a foot stool, and you can set up a foot stoll with a SH shine with DI towards him.
(SH shine towards Wario > foot stool > Dair is a true combo)
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
As Impostorak said earlier on FD its much easier to get gimped on, but it could also be hard to get wolf offstage if you play right. I like FD,BF, Halberd, YI, and Delfino. Halberd and Delfino are just my flat out best/favorite stages with all my mains.
Sesshomuronay
Smash Lord
Alright I added some more stuff about wario. So what are some good stage bans?
Xzax Kasrani
Smash Master
FD, Wario just Fsmashes and stuffs, and FD is just a bad wolf stage lol. BF aswell, Uair is dangerous against wario, fart is really good on BF, and Wario is just good there. And Brinstar for obvious reasons.
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