Out of order, new matchup thread coming soon!

[~ Gheb ~]

Get him in the air, wait for an airdodge/grenade reversal/aerial and punish with fair/uair - fair is better because its huge hitbox is more reliable though uair hits from different angles (especially if Snake is slightly behind you). Don't grab too much, at least not from a neutral position...Snake ftilt >>> any grab. Only grab after he whiffs an aerial or when he lands in general (you can also try to grab him out of the mortar slide though it's difficult and risky). Ftilt2 can be easily punished with fsmash and AAA is very good against grab happy Snakes. Wolf has a solid roll after Snake dthrows you but avoiding grabs is always better. Focus on being in the air and use jab1 a lot when you're on the ground. Abuse your massive mobility advantage to avoid explosives. Blaster beats mortar slide. Don't waste your dsmash too early and stay out of utilt range...that's about it.

 

[-Jumpman-]

Grabbing out of air dodges isn't the best thing to do as most Snakes like to air dodge immediately after their air dodge. It's good to wait for it if you know your opponent like to do this though.

 

[Staco]

So it's annoying if I say you're right? Even if you yourself insist on being right? Whatever you say, man...

I played vs. a wolf a complete day offline. And this wolf player wasnt a bad one (which only smashes etc.). He used DThrow techcases, if I missed the tech, spaced really good etc.

And the only stage where it is maybe 60:40 is SV, (maybe BF its 65:36, dunno) because of Wolfs amazing edge/planking game on this stages.
But the MU isnt that good on other stages. Bann SV, finished.

Stop overrating Wolf and tell me the name of any Wolf which could beat M2K every third match (which would be 70:40). (we dont speak about doing 40:60 or 50:50 vs. M2K, because this is nearly impossible for a Wolf player, if M2K doesnt sandbag really really hard)
There isnt any Wolf player which showed, that this MU is 6:4. They all doesnt stand a chance vs. the good MK players. There it maybe seems to be 80:20 or worse. xD But since everyone doesnt understand what MU really means ...

A 7:3 MU doesnt mean that you get *****. It tells you, that two players on the same level will play 7:3, 7 wins MK, 3 wins Wolf. It doesnt mean that you get 2 or 3 stocked, it just means that Wolf got less chances to win.

But this is mostly based on my experience. Maybe there are some hidden Wolf players, which do 6:4 vs. M2K, Dojo, Judge, KSizzl or some others. But I didnt found any proofs or some vids on yt, so I dont expect it.

 

[-Jumpman-]

There isn't? I heard JJ Wolf beats good MKs all the time. And Gaki beats me, best European MK.

 

[Ishiey]

I know we're supposed to be on snake, but I'm going to VM CO18 and JJ for their input, because they have lots of tournament experience to show that it's not really that bad.

Staco, can you please elaborate on what edge/planking games wolf is capable of on SV and not on other stages? Also, there isn't anyone as good as M2K that uses wolf, so... that comparison you asked for isn't too feasible =/ Anyways, I think we should wait for JJ's post, if he posts.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Well, if you know what you are doing and are ******* patient enough, then the match up will be more to your favor.

I main Mk now. I have played a Wolf main. And its been the other way around too.

You can just be annoying as **** and you'll have a decent chance of winning.

 

[castorpollux]

I played vs. a wolf a complete day offline. And this wolf player wasnt a bad one (which only smashes etc.). He used DThrow techcases, if I missed the tech, spaced really good etc.

And the only stage where it is maybe 60:40 is SV, (maybe BF its 65:36, dunno) because of Wolfs amazing edge/planking game on this stages.
But the MU isnt that good on other stages. Bann SV, finished.

Stop overrating Wolf and tell me the name of any Wolf which could beat M2K every third match (which would be 70:40). (we dont speak about doing 40:60 or 50:50 vs. M2K, because this is nearly impossible for a Wolf player, if M2K doesnt sandbag really really hard)
There isnt any Wolf player which showed, that this MU is 6:4. They all doesnt stand a chance vs. the good MK players. There it maybe seems to be 80:20 or worse. xD But since everyone doesnt understand what MU really means ...

A 7:3 MU doesnt mean that you get *****. It tells you, that two players on the same level will play 7:3, 7 wins MK, 3 wins Wolf. It doesnt mean that you get 2 or 3 stocked, it just means that Wolf got less chances to win.

But this is mostly based on my experience. Maybe there are some hidden Wolf players, which do 6:4 vs. M2K, Dojo, Judge, KSizzl or some others. But I didnt found any proofs or some vids on yt, so I dont expect it.

It is 100:0 MK favor because no wolf can beat M2k, Tyrant, and Dojo

MK vs MK is 100:0 too because no metaknight can beat M2k Tyrant and Dojo

MK vs G&W is 100:0 too because no g&w can beat M2K, Tyrant, and Dojo

MK vs Diddy Kong is 100:0 too because no diddy kong has beaten M2K, Tyrant, and Dojo

MK vs DDD is 100:0 because no DDD has beaten M2k, Tyrant, and Dojo

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Well, I'm just going to list stuff:

Snake's aerials suck in the case he's being juggled. This is Wolf's strength. Just uair him when he's in the air.
Wall of bair seems to give Snake players a nightmare.
Shield all the time. His ftilt becomes inferior.
Grab him for ****.
When he's using the glider, **** him.
When he's recovering, use spike to ruin his life.
Reflector ***** Snake's grenades.
Reflector the mines.
Bair.
If you're stuck with C4, use common sense and do something about it.
DI... lol
Approach from above? Do it and I revoke your Wolf license.
Blaster at your own caution. An incoming grenade could esplode and ruin you. On the other hand, you could hit Snake's grenade just after he throws it, ruining his day. You choose.
Blaster ruins his mines.
Bair.
If the Snake in question really sucks, nair lock him for lolz.


I think that's all I have to say. Anyone want to challenge my thoughts?

 

[KRDsonic]

From my experiences with Wolf vs. Snake:

Wolf can handle a camping snake way easier than most characters. Blaser grenades when he throws them, or if he's dumb and throws grenades early and unsafely, just reflect them, or pick them up and throw them back at him.

Snake is easy to juggle because of his semi-bad areals, though his Nair can be annoying at times. Wolf's Fair and Snake's Nair trade hits. I'm not sure if you can hit him out of his Nair when he's facing you, with your Fair and not get hit, but the fact that it trades hits can be handy.

Uthrow > Bait an air dodge > Regrab tends to be a handy mindgame on Snake. Most either try to air dodge their way down or use a Nair/Dair to try to give them a safe landing, so I just abuse the landing lag of those and regrab (or use a Dsmash if it's time to kill, but if it's by that time, it's better to just Dthrow than Uthrow).

Snakes range is annoying, but at least Wolf can compete with it. This matchup seems 50:50, in my oppinion.

 

[castorpollux]

If both players are playing really well, I feel that match-up is pretty even.

However, it is a LOT easier to play well all the time with Snake, while wolf is a LOT harder to be consistent with.

Factoring this consistency, I would have to give snake an edge in this match up

60:40 snake

 

[Seagull Joe]

I played vs. a wolf a complete day offline. And this wolf player wasnt a bad one (which only smashes etc.). He used DThrow techcases, if I missed the tech, spaced really good etc.

And the only stage where it is maybe 60:40 is SV, (maybe BF its 65:36, dunno) because of Wolfs amazing edge/planking game on this stages.
But the MU isnt that good on other stages. Bann SV, finished.

Stop overrating Wolf and tell me the name of any Wolf which could beat M2K every third match (which would be 70:40). (we dont speak about doing 40:60 or 50:50 vs. M2K, because this is nearly impossible for a Wolf player, if M2K doesnt sandbag really really hard)
There isnt any Wolf player which showed, that this MU is 6:4. They all doesnt stand a chance vs. the good MK players. There it maybe seems to be 80:20 or worse. xD But since everyone doesnt understand what MU really means ...

A 7:3 MU doesnt mean that you get *****. It tells you, that two players on the same level will play 7:3, 7 wins MK, 3 wins Wolf. It doesnt mean that you get 2 or 3 stocked, it just means that Wolf got less chances to win.

But this is mostly based on my experience. Maybe there are some hidden Wolf players, which do 6:4 vs. M2K, Dojo, Judge, KSizzl or some others. But I didnt found any proofs or some vids on yt, so I dont expect it.

wolf planking?wolf is terrible at planking.

 

[-Jumpman-]

wolf planking?wolf is terrible at planking.

He isn't online.

 

[Seagull Joe]

He isn't online.

wolf planking isnt only boring, but useless.whats he gonna do wait for a guy to get near edge and shuttle loop?wolf can just scar someone waiting near the edge(except for fd) and get a better result then humping the edge

 

[Ishiey]

We're not talking about online. Most wolves online play a lot differently than wolves offline, with good reason.

I pretty much agree with KRD, JJ, and Asaph... Slight advantage for snake, that ******* doesn't die, ever. Harass him to no end the instant he gets off stage, it's your best bet. The uthrow thing works well, you can also bthrow sometimes for similar results. Punish a shielded ftiltx2 with fsmash. You can shine out of his nair and also reflect the mortar. Blow **** up with your blaster.

Some more emphasis on what JJ said. Snake punishes harder than wolf. If you can, SDI snake's ftilt so the second hit won't connect, the damage you can save in the long run is impressive.

 

[choice_brawler]

SDI's snake's first hit which way?

 

[MidnightAsaph]

SDI's snake's first hit which way?

EDIT: nvm me. I was thinking about something else. Silly me.

 

[Seagull Joe]

SDI's snake's first hit which way?

i think it depends on where u r in relation to the nair.if ur at the front of it.sdi back.if ur in the middle probably up or down.if ur at the closest part towards.correct me if im wrong cause im not to sure

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Ok I've been busy but I'll try to give my feelings towards this matchup.

In my opinion:
-Snake has a small advantage over wolf
-Outcamping snake usually doesnt work out in the end(at least for me, but I usually play wifi)
-Juggling him is very good
-He has the advantage KO wise being heavy and he can kill us pretty early
-Snake can control the stage via explosives, but we can juggle him fairly well to make up for that and we have an overall better air game.
-Snake can be annoying to approach, but our B-air has a lot of range so like use that

 

[choice_brawler]

oh i was referring to this.

If you can, SDI snake's ftilt so the second hit won't connect, the damage you can save in the long run is impressive.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

So guys whats the general consensus on the advantage?

Small advantage to snake or is it even is what I think it probably is.

And what are some decent counterpick stages when fighting snake.

*Should I add a section for stages to ban vs that particular character as well?

Edit: I also added some stuff for vsing snake.

 

[Ishiey]

Eh... Idk, we need some snakes to come in here and throw in their opinions...

For stages, someplace with a high ceiling to avoid utilt kills might be good, maybe japes? I think it's a small advantage for snake, mainly because he can live forever with good DI.

I think that, if we could get a good consensus on stages, we should put those up as well.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Hey, my friend Gangsta has a couple words.



G_inc : well I'm no pro but, from my experiences playing with Asaph, I've understood that 1.You must watch approaches. Don't go on a b-air assault if you feel pressured to do so.

2.I can't stress it anymore than possible, Space your *** off or else you'll be eating a well deserved knee followed by an axe handle or a neutral a combo. or even a U tilt

3.Try and out mind game him: A snake that has difficulty reading moves is often one you can abuse.

4.Snake is not untouchable. So what does he have grenades? Shine em, eat
the attack through your invincibility frame and keep moving. any distance you can cover is good distance.

5.Grab that UVA. above all else if he is recovering below and he is not wary of what's coming to him let him have it. even a good d-air to scare em or punish them is great.

6.What's a matter scared? don't be, Snake is just another character play the game smart not hard.

7. Don't get grabbed, that's the most painful thing to see. Especially when I play Asaph with Snake and peach.


I'm sure Asaph will post footage of a match between us sometime. Hopefully sooner than later beware I'm a mega nub.

 

[Ishiey]

Getting grabbed against snake sucks, no lie...

And lol @ black text.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

Eh... Idk, we need some snakes to come in here and throw in their opinions...

I tried but they like didn't notice or ignored me or something.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Getting grabbed against snake sucks, no lie...

And lol @ black text.

He has confidence issues.

But that's one thing that I hate. Snake can really control you if you let him grab you and throw your *** off the level. The ****ing *******. lol jk

 

[Ishiey]

Personally, wolf's techroll isn't too great, so a good snake won't have much trouble screwing you with dthrow. Be sure to mix up your options, maybe even delay them sometimes to trick the snake.

And that really sucks, that the snakes aren't responding But, what can we do, I guess.

 

[MidnightAsaph]

Personally, wolf's techroll isn't too great, so a good snake won't have much trouble screwing you with dthrow. Be sure to mix up your options, maybe even delay them sometimes to trick the snake.

And that really sucks, that the snakes aren't responding But, what can we do, I guess.

Yeah, Gstainc really screws me up, save for when I roll forward. But from experience,

No. I wouldn't suggest delaying it, that's a free ftilt, and it's something they'll look to do.


Edit: Guys, I think this match-up is straight-forward. Would it make sense to move on?

 

[ArcPoint]

I'm gonna go with the advantage to Snake. Good luck killing him.

 

[Sesshomuronay]

So snake has a bit of an advantage but what stages are best to choose when fighting him? or should I just put the same stuff as for mk.

 

[Ishiey]

For neutrals, I'd probably go with FD. Less platforms for him to abuse explosives. For counterpicks, maybe Japes? Very high ceiling so utilt won't kill early, and he can't really c4 himself for recovery. Idk, just some ideas.

 

[tekkie]

For neutrals, FD. Smashville might be a good one.

CPs, go Brinstar or Norfair :D

 

[Staco]

There isn't? I heard JJ Wolf beats good MKs all the time. And Gaki beats me, best European MK.

never heard of U, I dont know any good placing of U at tourneys
at least reaper is better than U with MK (from newest tourney placings), and I dont think that reapers MK is that good compared to some american MK players

oh, and ever heard of JJ Wolf placing good at a big tourney with good mks? or beating some good (not some unknown) MK player?


Wolf gets a lot of possibilities at the edge of SV and BF because of the side b stage thing.
if mk tries to attack wolf, wolf can just go through the stage and MK cant hit him,
because MK has to wait onstage to punish it. but if he waits on stage he cant punish wolf, if he stays at the edge
so Wolf can get back to the stage very easy, if he got the edge one time

I shouldnt have called it planking

on stages like FD its much harder to come back for wolf, even if he grabs the edge, because he has to take the upper way
this really helps MK, because Wolf is very limited in such a situation

give me any proofs pls, why wolf should be 60:40 with MK
chars like marth got a 60:40 MU, but there are players like mikehaze or neo, which place good at tourneys with mks, mikehaze beat dsf in a set before a short time
and U think wolf goes 60:40 with MK, wtf?
stop overating wolf, just because U play him

 

[~ Gheb ~]

at least reaper is better than U with MK

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

oh, and ever heard of JJ Wolf placing good at a big tourney with good mks? or beating some good (not some unknown) MK player?

So dmbrandon doesn't count as a good MK anymore?

 

[Staco]

gheb, reaper placed 2nd at smack, atm biggest european tourney in 2009
and he wins all the german tourneys
I never heard of jumpman placing good at a big tourney or winning a lot

and I spoke about this edge stuff from my offline experience vs. wolf

and dmbrandon doesnt count as a good mk compared to the mks which place good at the really big tourney

 

[~ Gheb ~]

gheb, reaper placed 2nd at smack, atm biggest european tourney in 2009

There were no good Brawl players at smack.

And there were much bigger brawl tourneys in the EU in '09 ... there were french tourneys with more than 100 ppl so stop writing nonsense.

and he wins all the german tourneys

He has no serious competition

I never heard of jumpman placing good at a big tourney or winning a lot

He got second in a 120 man tourney (twice as big as the brawl attendane at smack), where even the guy, who placed 9th is a lot better than reaper.

Besides, Jumpman wouldn't lose to a mediocre Sheik like reaper did.

 

[Yikarur]

Don't overrate reaper cause he won a tournament with 90% of Melee Players.

But what do I do in the Wolf Board xD

 

[Staco]

Besides, Jumpman wouldn't lose to a mediocre Sheik like reaper did.

haha, are there any proofs, that jumpman beat armada or that he wouldnt loose to him?
and I never heard of a big french tourney with 100+ people in 2009

and now stop this stupid discusion

wolf boards overrate wolf, thats fact!
wolf isnt place 22 in tierlist for no reason

I wont try to discuss here again, because U dont get away from thinking wolf vs. mk is 40:60 or better
show me some proofs if U get them, but U never will see some wolf getting a good place at a big tourney like apex or beating m2k, dsf, dojo etc.

and pn me a link to the 100+ people tourney pls

 

[-Jumpman-]

haha, are there any proofs, that jumpman beat armada or that he wouldnt loose to him?
and I never heard of a big french tourney with 100+ people in 2009

and now stop this stupid discusion

wolf boards overrate wolf, thats fact!
wolf isnt place 22 in tierlist for no reason

I wont try to discuss here again, because U dont get away from thinking wolf vs. mk is 40:60 or better
show me some proofs if U get them, but U never will see some wolf getting a good place at a big tourney like apex or beating m2k, dsf, dojo etc.

and pn me a link to the 100+ people tourney pls

Alright. There is no proof, it's Gheb's opinion. Cool?

There was a 100+ man tournament in 2009.

In my opinion, the Wolf boards and the whole continent of North America underrate Wolf. Just my opinion. The difference, however, is that I play one of the best Wolfs in the world every month.

Firstly, why should the change their opinion about a matchup? They have far more knowledge about both characters than you do. You play online mostly and have NO experience against good Wolfs.

Secondly, a player beating another player cannot be seen as proof of a matchup. Simple as that.

 

[Staco]

So a lot of Wolfs should have beaten a lot of MKs to proof this MU in another way?

Maybe just every Wolf in america isnt that good and thats why there arent Wolfs beating the best MK players. MU are based on the highest level of play and I think some american MKs are on a very high level atm.
And a MU should closely represent the reality, if the players play really good.

first possibility: Wolf sucks and he doesnt stand a chance vs. MK
second possibility: there arent much good Wolfs in america and thats why the MU isnt represented in reality (the best MKs win vs. the best Wolfs, maybe because the Wolf players are worse than the MKs)

 

[Semifer]

Staco, you don't know enough about Wolf to be able to rate a MU correctly. For example you think that edge stuff is only possible on SV and BF, but you can do it almost everywhere, also FD.
And I don't really understand why you still think the MU is 70:30, I think I showed you that it isn't that bad if you don't get the gimp, and in serious matches that won't happen frequently.

@ Jumpman:
Yeah I'm not really good yet, but I'm pretty sure that I'm (at least one of) the best Wolf(s) of Germany.

Yes Germany sucks.

And reaper is overrated.

And Gheb underrates Armada.

And Wolf is underrated.

That had to be said lol.