Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ We need every detail that we can hold, by all means you can go into more detail if you please. ☆
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Official Kirby Matchup Thread, now discussing: LUCAS!!!
- Thread starter Kewkky
- Start date
- Status
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Brinstar? I thought DK was like god on that stage...plus the lava can save him from gimps.
Edit: Snake summary is up, but it's a bit incomplete. I'm going to finish it when I'm not tired (sometime tomorrow), and anyone who points out stuff that's wrong or helps would be appreciated.
Edit: Snake summary is up, but it's a bit incomplete. I'm going to finish it when I'm not tired (sometime tomorrow), and anyone who points out stuff that's wrong or helps would be appreciated.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
I guess stage discussion it is! Some general things to get out of the way first to make going through stages easier... Any levitating platform that isn't over the edge or moving is going to be much more beneficial to DK than it is to Kirby. DK can camp under it to cover above him so that he doesn't need to worry about Kirby avoiding his tilts (most notably his d-tilt) by going above him for the counter-attack. This is a big limiter on Kirby's game due to DK being able to take full advantage of his range without as big of a worry for the inevitable counter attack. Examples of stages that have platforms like this would be BF, Yoshi's, and JJ. The inverse is true for Kirby. If the platform is on the edge or moving, DK can't make as much use out of it, and Kirby can use it as a launching and landing platform for his air game relatively safely and try to force DK into an air game which he may inevitably lose due to Kirby's mid-air flexibility. Examples of these kinds of platforms are Smashville and Brinstar.
Another thing to note is the usefulness of a stage specific AT on the opposing character. Stone tricks, for instance, aren't as useful on a wary DK because of their mobility and ability to punish HARD if they know the trick. Likewise, DK's SA AT isn't as useful in general due to Kirby's ability to float between the hit-boxes and rack up damage if they are in the proper position. Techs like these can still be very useful in the correct place, however (see pictochat for Kirby and JJ for DK).
I'll edit this post later or create a new one with more stage specific info for the starters, neutrals and a few CPs of note.
Edit: Here we go!
Battlefield: This is by and large a Donkey Kong favorable stage. There are two platforms for DK to utilize directly for cover, and the stage is small enough to keep Kirby in reach at most times. The extra platforms are also a major boon to DK's recovery, giving him three lag-less landing possibilities for his up-b as well as the ledge. The more options DK has for recovery, the less predictable DK's recovery is going to be (aka more difficult to gimp). Kirby should also beware of a DK using up-b off of the platforms. It grants SA throughout the entire move if done correctly, can laglessly end on the next platform down and can lead into most anything, usually a d-smash. Kirby can utilize the platforms for up-b mindgames, but little else against DK considering that DK is going to stick to the ground for most of a battle here. The stage is more in DK's favor and less in Kirby's. Strike it, but don't ban it.
Final Destination: This is the starter stage Kirby is going to want to go to. No platforms means no cover for DK, and more importantly less recovery options. Kirby is going to want to get DK off the stage at low percents here and gimp as many times as possible. The stage gives no advantage to DK at all in this MU, so the nod goes to Kirby on this stage.
Smashville: While not a bad stage for DK, the fact that the platform is moving can be a pain. This is a smaller version of FD for DK, with the slight possibility of having a platform to recover to if lucky enough. Kirby benefits from the platform much more than DK does, and can gimp here almost as easily as on FD. A few random things to be aware of, though. Any time DK grabs you near the edge of the stage on the end of the moving platform, he can kill you by using d-cargo toss in the direction of the blast zone. It isn't % specific, and kills instantly. The other thing to be aware of (though it is completely useless) is the DK can travel under the stage and successfully grab the ledge on the other side. Slightly in Kirby's favor, but not by much.
Yoshi's Island: Don't take a competent DK here. Don't even bother. Kirby has no reliable way to deal with the up-b tech on this stage and the platform makes it difficult to even deal out damage. Also take into consideration that the up-b tech grants DK access to any part of the stage any time he wants, and you have a stage that is LARGELY against you. This should be your stage ban, hands down. If you don't ban it you are doing something wrong.
Rainbow Cruise: This stage would look like a great stage for Kirby in this MU, but it isn't so much. The first leg of the stage has almost everything DK could want in a stage. Close blast zones, platforms for defense and recovery options, and best of all (for the DK) a wall for the d-tilt lock. Kirby doesn't have much going for him in the first stretch, save for gimps still being possible.
The second section of the stage is the complete opposite. Un-even footing and a lack of platforms for recovery and defense make for a very unhappy DK. There are also abundant opportunities to gimp here. A star-shot off the left hand side under the platform is a proverbial death sentence. DK's ability to survive high percents can be stripped away with clever timing and utilization of the left blast wall (keep in mind, DK can use it too, but not quite as well). The magic carpets are hovering death-traps for DK if he gets on them due to Kirby's off-stage versatility. DK's only saving graces are that he is much more mobile that Kirby, and can spike for a chance at a gimp. Expect the DK to run away in this section, but be sure to utilize whatever you can get (especially during the pendulum section where DK will have no place to run to).
The third section is a mixed bag for both characters. DK has two walls to d-tilt lock with, but neither lasts an incredibly long time, so the damage potential is limited. The platforms are non-moving and over the stage, but the movement of the stage forces DK to keep moving (and vulnerable). Kirby likewise sacrifices his biggest asset in this MU by not being able to gimp here. Overall, this stage could go either way for either character.
I'll add more when I'm not tired.
Edit2:
Jungle Japes: This stage is usually pretty good for Kirby. Dair and inhale gimps can cause most characters a lot of problems, and the HUGE distance between the stage and the blast zones help Kirby to stay alive for a long time. Unfortunately for Kirby, DK can eliminate Kirby's ability to gimp on this stage and out-ranges Kirby to the point where inhale will be very hard to pull off. On most stages, Kirby can gimp DK with a single dair at almost any percentage, let alone a dair to a footstool. On Jungle Japes, this is taken away from Kirby twofold. First, the river. DK has one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game, and will likely survive attempts to dair gimp from anywhere except the far left side of the stage, which DK will simply try to avoid. The other problem with this stage is getting the dair to spike in the first place. A competent DK will be able to abuse the up-b SA tech over any and every nook and cranny where Kirby would usually be able to dair gimp, completely eliminating it from the equation. Tack on that the up-b will almost always end lag-lessly due to the structure of the stage via platforms or ledges, and all Kirby can hope to do is tack on a bit of extra damage, hoping to dish out enough for an outright KO later. DK can use cargo tosses on Kirby to stage spike and knock Kirby into theriver god klaptrap, giving DK a much more feasible gimp game here. If the elimination of Kirby's gimp game wasn't enough, the stage gives DK a large hovering platform for good measure. Don't take DK here.
Delfino Plaza: Do you remember how I said that this MU is very momentum based? Well, this stage accentuates it to the point of lunacy (and fun!). Either the stage blatantly favors Kirby, or blatantly favors DK, rarely in between. The various layouts for the "moving" part of the stage can favor either DK or Kirby depending on the platform layout. The platforms are usually too high for DK to take better advantage of than Kirby, though, so this portion of the stage will almost always favor Kirby. Just a side note, DK can shark just like Kirby here and use up-b to land directly of the stage or move to either ledge, so don't get too shark happy.
There are too many landing sites for me to really want to go over in detail, so I'll make a few generalizations. First, stay out of the water. DK can use it WAY better than Kirby can. Three spikes with one killing before the 50% mark is not a good thing. Kirby can't spike kill in the water until after 200%. Second, walls are DK's friends, not Kirby's. Any time there is a wall, DK can use it for the lock, and there are a LOT of walls on this stage. Finally,The stage walk-offs can be useful for either character, but move often than not DK gets the nod for his mobility. Beware of d-toss gimps. This stage can go either way, and it usually does so in the extreme.
Brinstar: This stage is usually DK heaven. Close blast zones, small stage, platforms for an increase to his air game, extended hit-boxes using the various destructible parts of the stage... yeah, DK has a lot going for him here. The big problem in this MU, though, is Kirby's ability to utilize the platforms better. The platforms give Kirby relatively safe places to land (DK can still attack using aerials, but that will quickly become a problem for DK and I'll explain why in a moment) and allowing Kirby to stay air-borne almost the entire match. DK is forced to compete in the air with Kirby here, and will eventually lose out due to u-air and bair becoming stale and Kirby's killing moves remaining relatively fresh. Because Kirby can stay in the air so long here, most of DK's other advantages go out the window simply because they become very unlikely to hit Kirby. If you add in the fact that Kirby can shark on this stage for good measure, Kirby simply outperforms DK here. Just be sure not to get hit!
I don't have much to say on the other stages like Pictochat and PS1 simply because I don't play them much, and stages like Port Town and the Mansion simply because they are banned around here. As a side note, I see Kirby having more to abuse stage wise than DK on PS1, and Pictochat is hard to guage because of DK's survivability and up-b tech here compared to Kirby's stone tricks. Outside of these stages, just pick what's best for you. Hope this helps!
Another thing to note is the usefulness of a stage specific AT on the opposing character. Stone tricks, for instance, aren't as useful on a wary DK because of their mobility and ability to punish HARD if they know the trick. Likewise, DK's SA AT isn't as useful in general due to Kirby's ability to float between the hit-boxes and rack up damage if they are in the proper position. Techs like these can still be very useful in the correct place, however (see pictochat for Kirby and JJ for DK).
I'll edit this post later or create a new one with more stage specific info for the starters, neutrals and a few CPs of note.
Edit: Here we go!
Battlefield: This is by and large a Donkey Kong favorable stage. There are two platforms for DK to utilize directly for cover, and the stage is small enough to keep Kirby in reach at most times. The extra platforms are also a major boon to DK's recovery, giving him three lag-less landing possibilities for his up-b as well as the ledge. The more options DK has for recovery, the less predictable DK's recovery is going to be (aka more difficult to gimp). Kirby should also beware of a DK using up-b off of the platforms. It grants SA throughout the entire move if done correctly, can laglessly end on the next platform down and can lead into most anything, usually a d-smash. Kirby can utilize the platforms for up-b mindgames, but little else against DK considering that DK is going to stick to the ground for most of a battle here. The stage is more in DK's favor and less in Kirby's. Strike it, but don't ban it.
Final Destination: This is the starter stage Kirby is going to want to go to. No platforms means no cover for DK, and more importantly less recovery options. Kirby is going to want to get DK off the stage at low percents here and gimp as many times as possible. The stage gives no advantage to DK at all in this MU, so the nod goes to Kirby on this stage.
Smashville: While not a bad stage for DK, the fact that the platform is moving can be a pain. This is a smaller version of FD for DK, with the slight possibility of having a platform to recover to if lucky enough. Kirby benefits from the platform much more than DK does, and can gimp here almost as easily as on FD. A few random things to be aware of, though. Any time DK grabs you near the edge of the stage on the end of the moving platform, he can kill you by using d-cargo toss in the direction of the blast zone. It isn't % specific, and kills instantly. The other thing to be aware of (though it is completely useless) is the DK can travel under the stage and successfully grab the ledge on the other side. Slightly in Kirby's favor, but not by much.
Yoshi's Island: Don't take a competent DK here. Don't even bother. Kirby has no reliable way to deal with the up-b tech on this stage and the platform makes it difficult to even deal out damage. Also take into consideration that the up-b tech grants DK access to any part of the stage any time he wants, and you have a stage that is LARGELY against you. This should be your stage ban, hands down. If you don't ban it you are doing something wrong.
Rainbow Cruise: This stage would look like a great stage for Kirby in this MU, but it isn't so much. The first leg of the stage has almost everything DK could want in a stage. Close blast zones, platforms for defense and recovery options, and best of all (for the DK) a wall for the d-tilt lock. Kirby doesn't have much going for him in the first stretch, save for gimps still being possible.
The second section of the stage is the complete opposite. Un-even footing and a lack of platforms for recovery and defense make for a very unhappy DK. There are also abundant opportunities to gimp here. A star-shot off the left hand side under the platform is a proverbial death sentence. DK's ability to survive high percents can be stripped away with clever timing and utilization of the left blast wall (keep in mind, DK can use it too, but not quite as well). The magic carpets are hovering death-traps for DK if he gets on them due to Kirby's off-stage versatility. DK's only saving graces are that he is much more mobile that Kirby, and can spike for a chance at a gimp. Expect the DK to run away in this section, but be sure to utilize whatever you can get (especially during the pendulum section where DK will have no place to run to).
The third section is a mixed bag for both characters. DK has two walls to d-tilt lock with, but neither lasts an incredibly long time, so the damage potential is limited. The platforms are non-moving and over the stage, but the movement of the stage forces DK to keep moving (and vulnerable). Kirby likewise sacrifices his biggest asset in this MU by not being able to gimp here. Overall, this stage could go either way for either character.
I'll add more when I'm not tired.
Edit2:
Jungle Japes: This stage is usually pretty good for Kirby. Dair and inhale gimps can cause most characters a lot of problems, and the HUGE distance between the stage and the blast zones help Kirby to stay alive for a long time. Unfortunately for Kirby, DK can eliminate Kirby's ability to gimp on this stage and out-ranges Kirby to the point where inhale will be very hard to pull off. On most stages, Kirby can gimp DK with a single dair at almost any percentage, let alone a dair to a footstool. On Jungle Japes, this is taken away from Kirby twofold. First, the river. DK has one of the best horizontal recoveries in the game, and will likely survive attempts to dair gimp from anywhere except the far left side of the stage, which DK will simply try to avoid. The other problem with this stage is getting the dair to spike in the first place. A competent DK will be able to abuse the up-b SA tech over any and every nook and cranny where Kirby would usually be able to dair gimp, completely eliminating it from the equation. Tack on that the up-b will almost always end lag-lessly due to the structure of the stage via platforms or ledges, and all Kirby can hope to do is tack on a bit of extra damage, hoping to dish out enough for an outright KO later. DK can use cargo tosses on Kirby to stage spike and knock Kirby into the
Delfino Plaza: Do you remember how I said that this MU is very momentum based? Well, this stage accentuates it to the point of lunacy (and fun!). Either the stage blatantly favors Kirby, or blatantly favors DK, rarely in between. The various layouts for the "moving" part of the stage can favor either DK or Kirby depending on the platform layout. The platforms are usually too high for DK to take better advantage of than Kirby, though, so this portion of the stage will almost always favor Kirby. Just a side note, DK can shark just like Kirby here and use up-b to land directly of the stage or move to either ledge, so don't get too shark happy.
There are too many landing sites for me to really want to go over in detail, so I'll make a few generalizations. First, stay out of the water. DK can use it WAY better than Kirby can. Three spikes with one killing before the 50% mark is not a good thing. Kirby can't spike kill in the water until after 200%. Second, walls are DK's friends, not Kirby's. Any time there is a wall, DK can use it for the lock, and there are a LOT of walls on this stage. Finally,The stage walk-offs can be useful for either character, but move often than not DK gets the nod for his mobility. Beware of d-toss gimps. This stage can go either way, and it usually does so in the extreme.
Brinstar: This stage is usually DK heaven. Close blast zones, small stage, platforms for an increase to his air game, extended hit-boxes using the various destructible parts of the stage... yeah, DK has a lot going for him here. The big problem in this MU, though, is Kirby's ability to utilize the platforms better. The platforms give Kirby relatively safe places to land (DK can still attack using aerials, but that will quickly become a problem for DK and I'll explain why in a moment) and allowing Kirby to stay air-borne almost the entire match. DK is forced to compete in the air with Kirby here, and will eventually lose out due to u-air and bair becoming stale and Kirby's killing moves remaining relatively fresh. Because Kirby can stay in the air so long here, most of DK's other advantages go out the window simply because they become very unlikely to hit Kirby. If you add in the fact that Kirby can shark on this stage for good measure, Kirby simply outperforms DK here. Just be sure not to get hit!
I don't have much to say on the other stages like Pictochat and PS1 simply because I don't play them much, and stages like Port Town and the Mansion simply because they are banned around here. As a side note, I see Kirby having more to abuse stage wise than DK on PS1, and Pictochat is hard to guage because of DK's survivability and up-b tech here compared to Kirby's stone tricks. Outside of these stages, just pick what's best for you. Hope this helps!
isnt supose to be kirby advantage cause
1.dk's recovery can get down aired easely out of its recovery
2.dk is big and can get grabed and comboed easily by the fthrow uair shield fthrow foward smash 54%
3. he can get baired off the stage and get down aired easily
imo
60-40 kirby
1.dk's recovery can get down aired easely out of its recovery
2.dk is big and can get grabed and comboed easily by the fthrow uair shield fthrow foward smash 54%
3. he can get baired off the stage and get down aired easily
imo
60-40 kirby
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Performing D-Air on time would take a good amount of skills or if the DK player isn't fast enough to get back. It's best to use Stone if DK's too high that D-Air won't do the job. Sure DK can get ***** by grabs, but what can you perform after the grabs? He will try to space you, and get as much damage as possible, and end us with a percent of 80ish or 90ish. And yes, performing B-Air on DK trying to get him out of the stage is possible and will work, just how are you going to set it up? Same tricks get old and you have to start a new one. With DK's speed, attack range, and knock back saves him from being destroyed by Kirby. Also let's not forget that Swallowcieds works on him very well, (you should know why, *cough*recovery*cough*). That's why I clam it's even 50/50, not that it matters because more people believe 45/55 Donkey Kong anyways. ☆
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
DK can footstool Kirby from swallow-cide break 100% of the time...
The only way Kirby is going to be gimping DK with inhale is to star-shot gimp. It works great, but is much more situational. Dair is the only reliable way Kirby can gimp in this match-up. Its great, but it doesn't make up for DK's larger array of viable options. If dair didn't gimp so easily, this would eventually become one of Kirby's hardest match-ups. 50-50 is a stretch, and 60-40 is by no means correct, so I still say 55-45 DK's favor.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Really?! I guess Star Shot under the stage then. Yea, making the time to perform D-Air while DK's recovery is harder than I thought, so hard that I just said screw it and use Up-B to gimp most of the time, (not a very good gimp move), unless I got into position, like knock him out of the stage while I'm near the edge of the stage position, I know dangerous, but it works. ☆DK can footstool Kirby from swallow-cide break 100% of the time...
The only way Kirby is going to be gimping DK with inhale is to star-shot gimp. It works great, but is much more situational. Dair is the only reliable way Kirby can gimp in this match-up. Its great, but it doesn't make up for DK's larger array of viable options. If dair didn't gimp so easily, this would eventually become one of Kirby's hardest match-ups. 50-50 is a stretch, and 60-40 is by no means correct, so I still say 55-45 DK's favor.
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
One quick comment: DK is pretty danm good on Pictochat too... So many locks!
Triple R
Smash Lord
*continues to **** DK's on JJ despite what people in this thread are saying*
DK's up b tricks aren't that big of a deal since they are situational and can only do it in certain spots.
DK's up b tricks aren't that big of a deal since they are situational and can only do it in certain spots.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
They can do it off of every platform... if you are spiking them with dair they are doing it wrong. Considering the large amount of platforms and the fact that DK can land laglessly on every one of them from up-b makes it a lot less situational on this stage... who are you playing irl?
fromundaman
Henshin a go-go Baby!
You do know that DK's UpB cancels momentum right?
This stage allows DK to cancel his momentum anywhere without penalty (assuming they pay attention to the timer and thus don't hit a Klaptrap.), allowing him to live much longer.
On top of that, he has a few UpB tricks there that are pretty effective (and really more than just Situational.).
That being said, Kirby is also really good on this stage, so it's not a huge advantage IMO.
Uhh... Kirby's advantage, 55:45. DK being a pretty fastfalling character, he's extremely weak against juggling, and sadly, Kirby's fortés is just that: juggling and stringing, aka "comboing".
DK might have a trick or two, but Kirby's faster. If DK throws in a bair, it only takes Kirby a couple of sandbags to learn the range and start shielding/powershielding. If DK starts bair>forwardB, Kirby can utilt/OoS bair faster than DK can finish his sideB. Sure, DK has more range on the ground, but kirbies know that when the ground doesn't cut it, they take to the skies, and a well-played air-campy game can help evade DK's attack and swoop in with a bair/dair when the timing sees fit. DK might be able to kill earlier... But Kirby can gimp waaay easier. One last tidbit: if DK cargo-holds you and is attempting something, just leave up pressed and/or mash buttons, you'll be out of it before you know it... And practice your tech skills in case you forget this during the heat of the match!
I personally wouldn't copy DK's ability, but it's just a matter of personal preference: inhale can get an easy 10% on your opponent if they don't expect it... But the smartest choice is to copy the ability! It's a great KO move that can be used in the air, and has decent range. Don't attempt a kirbicide, DK can footstool YOU out of an inhale break! If you forget about this and jump offstage with DK in your mouth, spit him out away from the stage or under, then try a stagespike with an uair/bair.
DK is a deceptively fast character, his attacks have pretty good range, he can kill early, but is weak against Kirby's comboing ability (meaning he'll be racking up a number of %s quickly), and is pretty easy to gimp once you know the matchup. I dunno, it's one of those matchups that in theory seems bad, but in the actual game it's easier than it sounds... Kind of like the Snake matchup (I'm tempted to say "Marth" as well, but I will probably get slapped). 55:45 Kirby's.
Don't bring DK to JJ, Brinstar (ever), or places with close blast zones, since he can kill you relatively easy. A great place to bring him to is Lylat Cruise, since if he misses the ledges due to you edgehogging and him using upB, the tilting might cause him to get stuck under the stage and fall to his doom.
I have a bit of experience against DK's, i've bplayed 4 different DKs of varying skill levels, one being OK, 2 being above-par, and the other being great (local mains and users, so yeah... Might not be as pleasing to the eye but still very good MU exp since they know everything about DK).
DK might have a trick or two, but Kirby's faster. If DK throws in a bair, it only takes Kirby a couple of sandbags to learn the range and start shielding/powershielding. If DK starts bair>forwardB, Kirby can utilt/OoS bair faster than DK can finish his sideB. Sure, DK has more range on the ground, but kirbies know that when the ground doesn't cut it, they take to the skies, and a well-played air-campy game can help evade DK's attack and swoop in with a bair/dair when the timing sees fit. DK might be able to kill earlier... But Kirby can gimp waaay easier. One last tidbit: if DK cargo-holds you and is attempting something, just leave up pressed and/or mash buttons, you'll be out of it before you know it... And practice your tech skills in case you forget this during the heat of the match!
I personally wouldn't copy DK's ability, but it's just a matter of personal preference: inhale can get an easy 10% on your opponent if they don't expect it... But the smartest choice is to copy the ability! It's a great KO move that can be used in the air, and has decent range. Don't attempt a kirbicide, DK can footstool YOU out of an inhale break! If you forget about this and jump offstage with DK in your mouth, spit him out away from the stage or under, then try a stagespike with an uair/bair.
DK is a deceptively fast character, his attacks have pretty good range, he can kill early, but is weak against Kirby's comboing ability (meaning he'll be racking up a number of %s quickly), and is pretty easy to gimp once you know the matchup. I dunno, it's one of those matchups that in theory seems bad, but in the actual game it's easier than it sounds... Kind of like the Snake matchup (I'm tempted to say "Marth" as well, but I will probably get slapped). 55:45 Kirby's.
Don't bring DK to JJ, Brinstar (ever), or places with close blast zones, since he can kill you relatively easy. A great place to bring him to is Lylat Cruise, since if he misses the ledges due to you edgehogging and him using upB, the tilting might cause him to get stuck under the stage and fall to his doom.
I have a bit of experience against DK's, i've bplayed 4 different DKs of varying skill levels, one being OK, 2 being above-par, and the other being great (local mains and users, so yeah... Might not be as pleasing to the eye but still very good MU exp since they know everything about DK).
i personally find the matchup to be about 50:50. on wifi perhaps it is 55:45 DK because lag makes it harder to time offstage gimps and makes it easier to land a slower, powerful attack.
EDIT: though corneria is banned on the aib ladders now, it is the reason that i initally began to truly hate DK. i should not die to a (relatively) fast fsmash that hits me when i have 25%.
EDIT: though corneria is banned on the aib ladders now, it is the reason that i initally began to truly hate DK. i should not die to a (relatively) fast fsmash that hits me when i have 25%.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
This may be true, but combos only last for around the first 50% or so. Thats around 1/3 of the total damage you are going to need to KO DK at best, unless you gimp him.
A couple of things. First, DK is faster movement wise, and Kirby only has a few moves that are faster than DK's. Second, DK should NOT be using bair as an approach in this MU and if they are they don't know the MU. Kirby is too short for bair to be effective, so he should be using his tilts to out-space Kirby. DK's tilts are relatively fast and very hard to punish without predicting what DK will be doing before-hand. Third, DK's tilts still out-space Kirby in the air, and if DK takes to the air, he will generally win out if his back is turned. U-air and bair both out-range Kirby and are just as fast as his bair. Finally, I wouldn't say it is easy to gimp DK. You need him off-stage which is really hard to do since Kirby will generally be getting out-spaced, and even if DK is knocked off-stage he has a lot of recovery options to mitigate that dair (most of Kirby's other moves knock DK up into the air, and with DK's weight he should be able to come back without too much trouble). Also, DK can kill as low as 50% (with DI) with a move as fast as Metaknight's f-smash, as well as use multiple moves that kill 80% and above (one coming out in eleven frames at max range). It only takes a few tilts to get Kirby in that range, and all of these kill moves out-space Kirby. Its not impossible for Kirby to get in or for Kirby to gimp, but DK has a lot more tools at his disposal then Kirby does in this MU.
DK is faster than Kirby (check the frame and movement speed data), his attacks out-range characters like meta-knight (the only move that MK has that can compete with DK's f-tilt is the third hit of his own f-tilt to give you an idea) and kills ridiculously early. Kirby can gimp and... gimp. 50% is great on most characters but much less effective on the overall heaviest character in the game, especially when he can out-space your kill moves. I have to disagree. I don't believe it is Kirby's advantage, I believe its DK's.
Lylat is a good DK stage because of the platforms, and if a player gets gimped by the stage tilt its their own fault, not the character's. Brinstar is great because it helps with Kirby's mobility issues and allows for an expanded air game (Kirby just has to play the "don't get hit" game here). I agree with the JJ's comment though.
Just because a player knows their own character (which they hopefully would) doesn't mean that they know the opponent's. I don't doubt your talking about their skill level, I just don't think they know the MU.
On a side note, it took me a while to answer to this post because of the implied attitude behind your opening statement. I don't mind discussion, but "uhh" followed by a contradictory statement in bold letters only conveys a lack of respect for the other mains that have posted here. Its fine if that wasn't your intent, but its really hard not to take it that way.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Discussion seems to be dead. Perhaps a new character?
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Links are discussing us on AiB.
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=82514
EDIT: Sorry, forgot this would be a double post.
http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=82514
EDIT: Sorry, forgot this would be a double post.
Lawz.
The Original Deadpool Fan
i did a write up on it, if you guys see anything wrong then by all means say it.
Sorry about that, it wasn't my intention... It's sort of like a subconscious habit of mine to write "uhh's" or "meh's" before going off on my keyboard, whenever I don't have something planned to write. I'm not trying to insult or disrespect anyone.
Still, I wrote my experiences. I don't really like writing in MUs because there's always someone who tries to prove you wrong (and sometimes they do)... And it bothers me, I can't help it. So I'm not gonna discuss, just gonna leave what I wrote.
... Still emphasizing the "It's much easier in practice than in theory" part of mine. Unless the DK always reacts frame-precise and the Kirby doesn't (or both do too), then DK has the advantage... But it's not a real scenario both players being "perfect", which is why I wrote that little tidbit up there. Not really MU-discussion-viable, just throwing it out there.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
No problem, thanks for clarifying.
I hope you will still post though. Having different perspectives is good, and MU debate (when done correctly) just helps flush out the truth of the matter.
Also, I'm not going off of the idea that frame perfect players exist, I'm going off of the idea that the average human can react in 10-15 frames, and then give a reactionary input response.
@everyone: So next character then? Maybe Pit, Pika or Tink? I don't know any of those MUs, so I can't contribute, but they seem like interesting candidates.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Most likely we should start Pit. Some people have different thought's on this match up. ☆
321BOOM
Smash Journeyman
i agree with pit, anyone wanna start with a summary?
i don't have any MU exp w/him, but i've really looked into it since he was my 2nd main choice, so i could write up somthin later ;D, don't have the time right now..
i don't have any MU exp w/him, but i've really looked into it since he was my 2nd main choice, so i could write up somthin later ;D, don't have the time right now..
A1lion835
Smash Champion
Pit it is.
GreyClover
Smash Apprentice
I'm not feeling match-upy today, I'll write a MU later. No Johns
Pit's Side-B
Multihit Move?: Yes
Trajectory: Sideways/horizontal
How to DI: Up and sideways. It doesn't matter what direction sideways, both will get you out (towards, or away).
KO percentage (no DI): 877%
KO percentage (DI):
Pit's Side-B
Multihit Move?: Yes
Trajectory: Sideways/horizontal
How to DI: Up and sideways. It doesn't matter what direction sideways, both will get you out (towards, or away).
KO percentage (no DI): 877%
KO percentage (DI):
A1lion835
Smash Champion
IIRC, if you DI towards Pit you go through with very little damage and can get an attack in on him.
Try to never DI through the forwardB towards Pit... Successfully DI'ing through ends up with you taking a lot of damage, you'd be better off DI'ing away and shorthopping a bair/dair.
thrillagorilla
Smash Ace
It depends on your timing. Kirby can make it through in less than two hits after the move starts if done correctly. If Kirby has already taken a few hits, definitely though.
thanortinzak
Smash Apprentice
Yeah. Definately do NOT DI towards the attack if you took a few hits already.
It's not a bad idea if you took like only one hit though.
It's not a bad idea if you took like only one hit though.
321BOOM
Smash Journeyman
The match will begin with pit shooting an arrow, most of the time. Throughout the match, he'll attempt to continue sneaking arrows in when you least expect it.. so to beat it, expect the arrow whenever you're far away(land or air). Don't spot dodge arrows, he can punish you for that.
You'd want to steal his special, it's EXTREMELY helpful in this matchup. Pit's arrow deals 6% uncharged and 11% charged, and is a great move to camp with. Of course, you won't really be successful camping a good pit, so the best time to use this would be when they least expect it or to break the space barrier if youre far away.(does that make sense?lol)
Pit's got a few multi-hit moves(side-b,uair,nair,jab) that he is definately goin to use, since uair is a killmove if not DI'd correctly, and nair is one of his best approaches. so an important tool against pit is to learn to DI and follow-up immediately, or pit will be able to rack up dmg on you pretty easily.
Your main goal against pit should be putting him under pressure. Kirby's grab game beats pit's, and from this we can get easy combos on him. one thing you might want to pay attention to though are his jabs. Multi-hit moves that have a decent range, he'll use this is you get too close.
Alot of his moves send us to the air, make sure you know your air game too, this is where he will be attempting to make the most dmg on you.
hope i helped a little. again, i have no actual MU experience against a recognizable pit, i just know alot of info about him.. so dont get all defensive cus i might not be right on some things.
You'd want to steal his special, it's EXTREMELY helpful in this matchup. Pit's arrow deals 6% uncharged and 11% charged, and is a great move to camp with. Of course, you won't really be successful camping a good pit, so the best time to use this would be when they least expect it or to break the space barrier if youre far away.(does that make sense?lol)
Pit's got a few multi-hit moves(side-b,uair,nair,jab) that he is definately goin to use, since uair is a killmove if not DI'd correctly, and nair is one of his best approaches. so an important tool against pit is to learn to DI and follow-up immediately, or pit will be able to rack up dmg on you pretty easily.
Your main goal against pit should be putting him under pressure. Kirby's grab game beats pit's, and from this we can get easy combos on him. one thing you might want to pay attention to though are his jabs. Multi-hit moves that have a decent range, he'll use this is you get too close.
Alot of his moves send us to the air, make sure you know your air game too, this is where he will be attempting to make the most dmg on you.
hope i helped a little. again, i have no actual MU experience against a recognizable pit, i just know alot of info about him.. so dont get all defensive cus i might not be right on some things.
GreyClover
Smash Apprentice
With good timing Nair can be shield grabed, just pointing that out.
Fear The Force
Smash Cadet
I hope we get matchup advice for all the characters that are being reviewed. I'm counting on this to help me vs. other people.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ I guess I'll throw my few cents here since no one talked in a while. Pit can get spammy when he needs and wants to with Kirby with speedy attacks, making this match up not on Kirby's advantage. But Pit's lack of kill moves and some what low combo options make this not Pit's advantage. I'll call it even all the way. Also stage options, do not take Pit to Halbard, he's incredibly annoying on that stage, well any stages that's flat don't take him there, lol. But do take him on stages that he can't run away or stages with helpful platforms. ☆
321BOOM
Smash Journeyman
This thread has been inactive for a bit.
I'm guessing not many people have much to say about Pit.
If nobody else has an input on the MU, I vote that we have a discussion on Peach.
I'm guessing not many people have much to say about Pit.
If nobody else has an input on the MU, I vote that we have a discussion on Peach.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Hmm, that would depend if any Kirby mains have Peach exp, of course I do since I know four people that are good with Peach, and one that's famous that lives in MI. ☆
321BOOM
Smash Journeyman
I've got peach exp :]
I have a great friend, hiROI, that is pretty beast. I play his peach all the times.
I have a great friend, hiROI, that is pretty beast. I play his peach all the times.
A1lion835
Smash Champion
I have a feeling we need to leave Pit behind and rediscuss him later.
And yes, I said we'd discuss peach, so yea.
I just wish that the 2 matchups that didn't get any talk hadn't been the only ones in our favor.
Edit: Post 1500!
And yes, I said we'd discuss peach, so yea
.I just wish that the 2 matchups that didn't get any talk hadn't been the only ones in our favor.
Edit: Post 1500
!
Ladybug
Smash Lord
I do too. Even though I don't find this matchup to be hard, it's not particularly easy either. Peach can float... And characters that float are never good. She also out rangers Kirby in a few moves and has projectiles. We do have the fact that we're short going for us though so we can duck and dodge a few things, but over all it can be pretty even... And annoying.
Then again I have never played a -really good- Peach player... The only one that's close is KosMos and I've never played him before. I've only played Peach in friendlies and in good ones Melee.
Then again I have never played a -really good- Peach player... The only one that's close is KosMos and I've never played him before. I've only played Peach in friendlies and in good ones Melee.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ Please tell me you didn't pick Smashville or Brinstar on Peach because she's a beast at those stages VS Kirby, I know, I experienced it. >.< ☆
☆ As for match up wise, this is suprisely a close match up that could go on either side. Using grab combo's on Peach is kind of hard because she can mostly N-Air them if your not using your F-Air as a combo grab. Not to mention that most stage picks that have our advantage is not very good advantages on Peach like Rainbow Cruise, Jungle Japes, hell even Port Town Areo Drive. Luckly her stage advantage isn't big on Kirby either since most of Kirby's bad stages are mostly ban, which kind of make it a better match up for Kirby. All I can think of is Pokemon Stadium, and maybe Battlefield since she's kind of tall. But like I said before, in Melee, Peach was one of Kirby's worst, now in Brawl, thanks to her weaken D-Smash, this match up is easier than before if you were/are competive with Melee. But enough about that, my thoughts is even, I use to think it's a little of Kirby's advantage, but the stage pick made me think even now. ☆
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