Aurasmash14
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2009
- Messages
- 1,540
Lol me too, Just like how i miss old Disney and old nickelodeon.
As for Link.... I cant say anything new really.
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SINGLES Lucario Match-Ups and Directory! Mario will brb saving a princess
- Thread starter #HBC | Red Ryu
- Start date
As for Link.... I cant say anything new really.
Alus
Smash Champion
Nevermind...
this was dumb
this was dumb
AfroTwist ShadowPie
Smash Journeyman
Link outcamps Lucario pretty easy so don't try to camp him.
>_>
<_<
He sucks. Just gimp him.
>_>
<_<
He sucks. Just gimp him.
F1ZZ
Smash Lord
I actually disagree with this. My brother plays Toon Link and his recovery as alot of priority. I think Link's recovery has great priority so wouldn't it be hard to gimp?
RT
Smash Hero
Link's recovery does protect him pretty well except from above. However, Spin Attack gives him very little horizontal recovery, so he has to rely on the vertical movement, which means he might have to recover low.
He can also use tether, but if someone is already hanging on the edge, he has to use Spin Attack. Add on the fact that he is a fastfaller, his options aren't that good overall.
He can also use tether, but if someone is already hanging on the edge, he has to use Spin Attack. Add on the fact that he is a fastfaller, his options aren't that good overall.
Alus
Smash Champion
No, it would be hard to edgehog, except the part where it isn't hard because you can time them.
Just hit link with a few aerials and he dies.
Just hit link with a few aerials and he dies.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
- Joined
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- Milwaukee, Wisconsin
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- RedRyu_Smash
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He does have the priority, he just lacks the actual movement to get him to the ledge easily.
What makes it worse is the fact one of Lucario's best aerials, Dair, can come from above and hit Link.
This is correct.
High level Links such as Deva, Legan, and such use good DI and momentum canceling to stay alive and make gimping less probable.
Loota
Smash Journeyman
I haven't played against Link very much but I played against Izaw in Germany and boy he was tough. I was very pleased that I won him almost half of the time but anyways... He used his projectiles so effectively that sometimes I just had to run away from him to avoid getting ***** by them. Gimping Link is obviously the key to win here. I got like half of my kills with gimping. Rolling helps sometimes getting inside of the wall of projectile **** but don't roll too much or Link will be awaiting and gladly punish it. Link's spotdodge a lot so using ftilt helps with it. I noticed that most of the time Izaw combo'd me it started from spotdodging my moves.
My first time trying to help in the MU discussion so don't be mean to me *-* Just trying to be helpfull.
My first time trying to help in the MU discussion so don't be mean to me *-* Just trying to be helpfull.
Ok.... lotta stuff to comment on. Prepare for a gigantic post, lol.
Other than that though, it has beastly knockback from........ anywhere.
Links mainly use this move for punishing and damage racking, not KOing. It can hit on both sides of him, which make it a good option OoS.
Which reminds me - jab cancels lead into a lot of things. Spin attack, utilt, dsmash, grab, and fsmash are the most common ones. BUT Link can still jab cancel fair, pivot bair, or nair. So watch out for those as well.
Btw, I'm curious, who are the 4 users. Link, TL, Samus..... who am I missing? O.o
Apparently from what I read, we can break out though? Someone tell me how lol.
Most people usually say "well, we'll just punish the FF airdodge, not hard." True..... but Link has the fastest FF in the game. Good luck catching up to him when he zooms right by you down to the ground.
So, watch out for those, and you'll live for a while.
Now to address killing Link. It's already been said you can gimp Link. Don't assume you can gimp him easily.
Note: this is not bragging. This is not exaggeration. Link mains have broken DI. A good Link generally lives to about 170% at least for most matchups. Now, that's definitely gonna lower if Lucario is at like 200% or something, but for the most part, don't be frustrated if he's at 140% and he's still not close to dying.
Link's sucky stages: Frigate, usually Japes.
Long post guys, but I hope this was helpful.
Forget about this move. Seriously, Links never use this move. On stage, off stage, ever. Pretend it doesn't exist, but I'm not exaggerating when I say we don't even consider it part of our moveset.
Everything here is right, except be careful about the bolded part. It has huge knockback always, basically. The only time it won't have amazing knockback is if you shield it, and we bounce off the shield, and then you lower your shield and get hit by it again. The hit after the bounce has hardly any knockback.
Other than that though, it has beastly knockback from........ anywhere.
I dunno where you heard this, lol. Dsmash is one of Link's best moves, easily. It KOs, it doesn't spike lol, it's one of his fastest moves in general, and it hits on both sides of him. Great move, really, be sure to watch out for it.
While it is true that you can DI out of it, don't be so quick to say that it's easy to DI out of. I've only encountered one person ever who could DI out of it, and that was a fellow Link main. But yes, it can be DI'd out of, the point still stands.
Links mainly use this move for punishing and damage racking, not KOing. It can hit on both sides of him, which make it a good option OoS.
This stuff is pretty correct, I'd say. Just keep in mind that bombs are by far his best projectile, and you will see a lot of them.
Yep, the only times you'll usually be seeing spin attack used for KOs is out of a jab cancel or OoS.
Which reminds me - jab cancels lead into a lot of things. Spin attack, utilt, dsmash, grab, and fsmash are the most common ones. BUT Link can still jab cancel fair, pivot bair, or nair. So watch out for those as well.
I don't think it has any knockback
Btw, I'm curious, who are the 4 users. Link, TL, Samus..... who am I missing? O.o
Nah, you're close up game beats ours. Link's close range game was never amazing, he'll stick to pressuring with projectiles.
Consider it like..... a guaranteed fact that we will camp. Lol
Yeah.... this is true. =/
Apparently from what I read, we can break out though? Someone tell me how lol.
Meh, dairs not really a move Links will use to stop a juggle, generally. They might sometimes at higher percents, to maybe get a KO on you off the top, but that's it really. Most of the time, they'll FF airdodge or FF nair or FF bair. Nair and bair have good priority, are quick, and auto-cancel.
Most people usually say "well, we'll just punish the FF airdodge, not hard." True..... but Link has the fastest FF in the game. Good luck catching up to him when he zooms right by you down to the ground.
You guys definitely, definitely wanna capitalize on gimping in this matchup. Like.... a lot. Dair offstage probably wrecks Link if you can land it, due to that knockback (it's multihit, but I haven't tested how to DI out). Fair WoPs work well, maybe nair too *shrug*
Lol. I'm not laughing at you sir, it's just that in every matchup I go to, someone brings this up. "You can ride the boomerang and attack, but he can attack too." I honestly dunno why people bring this up. You'll see this actually happen maybe like.... once out of 20 matches or something. It's so uncommon, it's not even worth mentioning. Yeah, don't worry about gale riding or anything.
Well, I'll address 2 things here. Here would be a good place to list Link's KO moves: fsmash, dsmash, utilt, spin attack, ftilt, dair, second hit of fair, and sometimes uair. Usmash is not a KO move.
So, watch out for those, and you'll live for a while.
Now to address killing Link. It's already been said you can gimp Link. Don't assume you can gimp him easily.
Note: this is not bragging. This is not exaggeration. Link mains have broken DI. A good Link generally lives to about 170% at least for most matchups. Now, that's definitely gonna lower if Lucario is at like 200% or something, but for the most part, don't be frustrated if he's at 140% and he's still not close to dying.
Meh. Out of the moves I listed, only 4 of the 8 go upwards. The other 4 kill horizontally.
A good Link WILL shoot arrows, chuck rangs, and throw bombs at you while recovering. And his aerial spin attack has high priority, thankfully. Throw in the fact that Link mains DI like crazy, and you've got yourself a fight for a gimp. This is why I said, gimping Link on paper seems easy, but it's not as easy as you might initially think.
Link is one of the best edgehoggers in the game. Reason being, if we're on the edge, we can refresh our invincibility frames by dropping away and tethering back very quickly. Just something to keep an eye out for.
Meh....throwing a boomerang from the stage to the Lucario offstage is something most Links are advised not to do. That goes for any matchup. The chance of catching you in the windbox into our KO move is just so little, we'd rather go for run-off nairs and fairs. We'll also be edgeguarding with dairs a lot, especially if you're at a KO percent.
Yeah, this is pretty true. Personally, I like YI. It depends on the Link user. If he's aggro, he'll like YI. If he's a camper, he won't.
Link's awesome stages: Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Halberd.
Link's sucky stages: Frigate, usually Japes.
This is basically never gonna happen. Any time a Link can be standing with a Hylian shield up to block an Aura Sphere, he can be doing something else. And just about every other option he could be doing, is a better one. The only time he'll block it with the Hylian shield is for the lulz, really.
I listed his KO moves above, but I'll bring this up again. Usmash is not a KO move. It's a damage racker.
Yeah seriously, take advantage of when Link is at a low percent. Basically everything Ryu said here is pretty true.
I talked about this earlier as well, don't feel like retyping it again. xD
Btw, if Norfair is banned in your region, ban Brinstar or Rainbow Cruise. Ryu, BF doesn't help Link's camp game so much as it does help his aggro game, tbh.
I'd agree with this.
You can't use usmash with a bomb in hand, unless you throw it up, and catch it with a DAC. Just for clarification.
That depends on the user, really. Link has a good spot dodge, but some players never use any of his dodges, they just space and PS. *shrug*
Long post guys, but I hope this was helpful.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Wait, I thought TL's uair was more of a killer, Link uair seems a bit weaker in contrast (at least according to my recollection).
RT
Smash Hero
I'm happy somebody corrected me, so there we go....DISCUSSION. Like I said, my Link experience is severely limited, so it's GOOD someone corrected me. At least I was right about some of the stuff, lol...there are hardly any good Links in Texas.
Also, Lucas is the fourth zair user. But his does no damage, lol. It can still tether.
Also, Lucas is the fourth zair user. But his does no damage, lol. It can still tether.
GreyClover
Smash Apprentice
Lucario's aerial game gives me nightmares at night, and I know every other Link is scared too. Link's will space themselves hard otherwise Lucario is going to combo him forever, Zair can be annoying but it is predictable. With Lucario's ablity to get stronger and stronger the more damage he gets Link's are pressured to get the kill fast and to save thier KO moves till the end, if you guys somehow get Link to use them then kudos to you.
Lucario's Fsmash is a great move to use. The push you get from it protects yourself against shield grabs or punishes. And Dair yes, you don't know how frustrating it is with this move in your arsenal for Link. I don't if Link can gimp Lucario but I know he can Nair or Bair you back offstage easily since Luca's recovery has no attack frames. Chaingrab is very bad for Link por weight use it at the start of a stock for a sweet 40% damage.
This is definitely in Lucario's favor but only 60:40 at best.
Lucario's Fsmash is a great move to use. The push you get from it protects yourself against shield grabs or punishes. And Dair yes, you don't know how frustrating it is with this move in your arsenal for Link. I don't if Link can gimp Lucario but I know he can Nair or Bair you back offstage easily since Luca's recovery has no attack frames. Chaingrab is very bad for Link por weight use it at the start of a stock for a sweet 40% damage.
This is definitely in Lucario's favor but only 60:40 at best.
Ich Bin Awesome
Smash Journeyman
uuuuggh....I stopped reading right there.
Anyway, I have some Lucario experience, but not much. Anyone want to get some matches so we can give our thoughts? I prefer L.A., but anything is fine.
(I'll be in the Link chatroom were you can find me immediately; no sign up required btw)
F1ZZ
Smash Lord
Why exactly did you stop reading my post there, all I did was say that Link and TL have similar recoveries.
manhunter098
Smash Lord
Fizz, its not an issue of priority, but rather spacing, and its a lot easier to space a d-air on Link than it is to space a d-air on Toon Link, you can also just jump down and toss an aura sphere, there are really plenty of options to stop Links recovery because it is so limited compared to Toon Link, who will rarely need to use his spin attack to recover, unless the TL chooses to. Link however will frequently be forced to use his spin attack as a recovery when he is off the stage because of his fast falling speed and pitiful second jump.
F1ZZ
Smash Lord
Sorry I guess comparing TL to Link is like comparing apples and oranges. Well I also have no experience with a Link so I guess I can't help out with this MU.
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
- Joined
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- Milwaukee, Wisconsin
- NNID
- RedRyu_Smash
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You know how you get out of normal grabs, mashing inputs. Do the same thing.
Quoting for emphasis on what Lucario should do.
This is true. I mostly posted just to say it's something Link could do.
This is what I get for going off personal experience.
Ok. For me it's half banned, some tournaments it is for other it isn't. I never liked Rainbow Cruise, it ends up with the other player either switching to a character that does better on it or me too worries of dying from platform jumping.
Np.
You know Link better than I do, I'm glad you did.
GreyClover
Smash Apprentice
This and we just hate Toon Link naturally.
Oh and we perfer to call him by his name 'gay'.
GreyClover
Smash Apprentice
Edit: Sorry double post.
Alus
Smash Champion
Your sig is full of GAY!
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
lol Link is a loner, isn't he?
Anywho, lets see if we can squeeze a little bit more out of link, then try PT.
Anywho, lets see if we can squeeze a little bit more out of link, then try PT.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
Let's do some pokemanz!
RT
Smash Hero
I will add on Charizard when I'm done...
Before I being, please read this guide about Pokemon Change's mechanics and how it affects PT's stale moves, stamina, etc. It's an interesting read and you will probably learn something you never knew.
Pokemon Trainer:
SQUIRTLE (aka Wario's little cousin)
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Jab: A pretty decent move considering they come out fast and can be linked from a grab release.
-Utilt: This moves comes out super fast, can combo into itself, and can lock people when Squirtle is tired. Really good for small but quick amounts of damage.
-Fsmash: It has a small amount of startup lag, but the move does have some Super Armor frames.
-Usmash: This will probably be the most used smash. It creates two walls of water on both sides of Squirtle, protecting him from physical contact. It has some kill potential and can be combined with hydroplanting, shellshifting, whatever you want to call it. It has some startup lag.
-Fair and Bair: These two moves are basically the same move, except fair does more damage. They are basically sex kicks, so treat them as such. They both have potential killing power.
-Dair: Kind of like Mario's dair but much better overall. The last hit is the one with the most knockback.
-Dthrow: This is a kill move at higher percents depending on the stage. A good Squirtle will save this move until they are ready for a KO.
-Water Gun: A decent edgeguard move that can be charged. It pushes people away but deals no damage. However, uncharged does do damage, but most Squirtles will never use an uncharged one.
-Withdraw: This move has very limited uses. It gives Squirtle invincibility but hitting him sends him the opposite direction. Also, jumping on him flips him over and puts him in a helpless state. It can be used for recovery, but it's a pretty terrible option in most cases. You probably won't see this move very often, if at all.
-Waterfall: Squirtle primary recovery move. It protects Squirtle from the front and bottom. His back and top part are exposed to attacks.
-Pokemon Change: Switches Pokemon...using this causes him to switch out with Ivysaur. Basically a free punish if he does it while Lucario is on stage. However, there is a way for the PT to cancel most of the transformation lag time using moving platforms.
-MISC: He is light, floaty, and small. He can walljump, wallcling, and crawl.
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-You certainly have more range than him with Fsmash, but Squirtle has more speed to get around this. Be sure you space yourself accordingly.
-Squirtle is light, so he'll die relatively early if you can survive long enough.
-Learn to edgeguard a Squirtle effectively. Waterfall does not give a whole lot of horizontal distance, but gives a decent amount of vertical.
Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Squirtle has no projectiles (charged AS goes through Water Gun) or reflectors, so feel free to use Aura Sphere. However, Squirtle is fast, so be careful about how much you spam AS.
-Squirtle lacks raw killing power, so you should live to pretty high percents as long as you don't get KO'd by Dthrow. Once you have Aura, you know what to do...
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-His light and floaty nature prevent some combos from working on him. Keep this in mind.
-Squirtle's aerials are more superior than Lucario's and come out much faster. Lucario's fair can challenge his fair/bair, but his come out faster and have more priority.
-Squirtle can edgeguard a Lucario with Water Gun if you are using Extreme Speed. Therefore, be careful when you recover mid/high.
-When recovering low, be prepared for a bair/fair to the face. Also, watch out for runoff->bairs. This could lead to a stage spike.
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-I'm at a loss here...I don't know what are good stages for a Squirtle. I guess big open stages that allow aerial movement are good for a Squirtle. Also, Squirtle relies primarily on vertical kills, so low ceilings are probably bad.
IVYSAUR (aka the lesser of the three...)
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Dash attack: A surprisingly decent kill move at higher percents. Ivysaur is a hitbox while she is sliding along the ground, and it lasts a decent amount of time.
-Ftilt A decent multihitting poke move that is relatively safe even when shielded. Ivysaur leans forward while doing this move, so it's hard to shieldgrab when properly spaced. It also comes out relatively fast.
-Utilt: A decent anit-air move that hits directly above her. It can be used to dodge certain ground moves, since her hurtbox is lifted off the ground, but anyone who does this to avoid attacks regularly is werid...
-Fsmash: A decent kill move that is somewhat quick and somewhat hard to punish if spaced. You'll probably see it used more when you get into kill percents.
-Usmash: Undoubtedly her most useful kill move. It has a some startup and ending lag, but it can kill at somewhat low percents if you are hit. It's also disjointed and can beat out Lucario's dair.
-Fair: One of her possible aerial kill moves. It covers a large area in front of her.
-Uair: Think of an aerial usmash with less knockback and somewhat less range. Can propel Ivysaur downwards.
-Dair: Basically a upsidedown uair but with less knockback and can stall aerial movement. It can spike.
-Bair: Probably her best spacing tool, since very few non-projectile moves can challenge it, it has very little ending lag, and be spammed to discourage approaches. It does very little damage, but the primary purpose of this move is to annoy and space.
-Bullet Seed: A decent move if you get trapped in it, but you can SDI out. The initial frames can knock you into the seeds.
-Razer Leaf: This projectile has good priority over other projectiles, but is slow and can be canceled by regular attacks. Again, used mostly to annoy or force an approach. Can be angled.
-Vine Whip: This is pretty much her only method of recovery. It's a tether recovery and she can only use it once. As an attack, it's pretty beastly if you get hit by the tip, but it probably won't happen too often. It also has amazing priority (I don't think anything can clank with it, but my memory is fuzzy).
-Pokemon Change: Switches Pokemon...using this causes her to switch out with Charizard. Basically a free punish if she does it while Lucario is on stage. However, there is a way for the PT to cancel most of the transformation lag time using moving platforms.
-MISC: Can crawl.
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Be aware of her kill moves, especially usmash. Ideally, don't stay above her too much, because she has some decent anti-air moves. Her aerials are okay, but they have some startup time.
-If the Ivysaur starts playing keep away, throw some fully charged Aura Sphere.
-Taking damage is something an Ivysaur cannot afford. More damage equals more knockback, and this could result in death for an Ivysaur.
Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Learn to edgeguard Ivysaur. Walls of fair or Aura Sphere could mean death. Don't be surprised if you gimp an Ivysaur rather than outright KO her with a kill move, because it happens very often.
-While she does have kill moves, they do have some startup time. Keep yourself spaced away from these moves.
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Not particularly, just know that her bair is her main spacing tool.
-Be aware of her tether recovery. Retethering to the edge can lead into mindgames.
-Her tether has a DECEPTIVE amount of range. Be careful when trying to do a speed edgehog.
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Her main weakness is her recovery ability, so if a stage doesn't have tether-able edges, then it will put her at an automatic disadvantage. Avoid stages with no pits.
CHARIZARD (aka Bowser 2.0)
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Utilt: A decent move for poking through platforms
-Dtilt: A really good poke move. It comes out fast, has very good range, and has very little ending lag.
-Fsmash: It has a lot of startup and ending lag, but it has a lot of knockback. One of his primary killmoves.
-Fair: A decent edgeguard and KO move that has weird properties. Charizard must hit you close with it in order to produce knockback. Otherwise, you will take damage but knockback.
-Uair: A decent juggle move, but it only has one hitbox and is not a sexkick despite its appearance of being one.
-Bair: Another decent KO move that must be sweetspotted in order to produce maximum effect. If you are set on fire, you were with the sweetspot.
-Dair: A spike move that has a small amount of startup time.
-Flamethrower: Basically the same as Bowser's fire breath, but with slightly more range, I think. Aura Sphere can cut through it.
-Rock Smash: This move has some different properties to it. You can either a) get hit and take a large amount of knockback or b) get hit and take a lot of damage, but not a lot of knockback. It has a good amount of shieldstun and can eat shields if used repeatedly.
-Fly: Charizard's recovery move. It has decent KO power at high percents, and also has Super Armor during the rising motion. It's very difficult to interrupt the move once it has been started.
Glide: Charizard can glide, but it is undoubtedly the worst one in the game because of its startup time. He can also Glide Attack, but once again, it's probably the worst one.
Dthrow: A possible KO move at higher percents, but it's weaker than Squirtle's IMO.
MISC: Big and heavy. Dash is faster than his walk. Has multiple jumps.
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Charizard has no projectiles or reflector, so feel free to use AS. He is a big target for AS.
-In terms of range, Charizard can challenge you with some of Lucario's moves. However, his moves are slower overall, so take full advantage of Lucario's lingering hitboxes.
-Force Palm chaingrab...you can use it but beware of attempts to escape it.
Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Lucario probably wins in the aerial game, but Charizard can keep up with Lucario on the ground. Just watch out for those RAR bairs!
-Since Charizard is big and heavy, you can combo him somewhat easily.
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Charizard is a "power" character, so his move will certainly do more damage than Lucario's early in the match. Be careful about getting KO'd early before taking advantage of Aura buffs.
-Don't be surprised if Charizard lives a long time if you don't have Aura.
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
Once again, I don't exactly know what to avoid or CP.
OVERALL: Most PTs know how to play at least one Pokemon very well, some learn two. It's very rare you'll find someone who is good with all three, so expect Squirtle to be one of their best. Squirtle is also probably the one that gives Lucario the most trouble. Charizard can give some trouble, but it can go either way. Ivysaur will probably give the least amount of trouble, but do not underestimate her. As a whole, I would say the matchup is somewhere near the NEUTRAL to borderline ADVANTAGE area depending on which Pokemon your opponent uses the most.
Before I being, please read this guide about Pokemon Change's mechanics and how it affects PT's stale moves, stamina, etc. It's an interesting read and you will probably learn something you never knew.
Pokemon Trainer:
SQUIRTLE (aka Wario's little cousin)
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Jab: A pretty decent move considering they come out fast and can be linked from a grab release.
-Utilt: This moves comes out super fast, can combo into itself, and can lock people when Squirtle is tired. Really good for small but quick amounts of damage.
-Fsmash: It has a small amount of startup lag, but the move does have some Super Armor frames.
-Usmash: This will probably be the most used smash. It creates two walls of water on both sides of Squirtle, protecting him from physical contact. It has some kill potential and can be combined with hydroplanting, shellshifting, whatever you want to call it. It has some startup lag.
-Fair and Bair: These two moves are basically the same move, except fair does more damage. They are basically sex kicks, so treat them as such. They both have potential killing power.
-Dair: Kind of like Mario's dair but much better overall. The last hit is the one with the most knockback.
-Dthrow: This is a kill move at higher percents depending on the stage. A good Squirtle will save this move until they are ready for a KO.
-Water Gun: A decent edgeguard move that can be charged. It pushes people away but deals no damage. However, uncharged does do damage, but most Squirtles will never use an uncharged one.
-Withdraw: This move has very limited uses. It gives Squirtle invincibility but hitting him sends him the opposite direction. Also, jumping on him flips him over and puts him in a helpless state. It can be used for recovery, but it's a pretty terrible option in most cases. You probably won't see this move very often, if at all.
-Waterfall: Squirtle primary recovery move. It protects Squirtle from the front and bottom. His back and top part are exposed to attacks.
-Pokemon Change: Switches Pokemon...using this causes him to switch out with Ivysaur. Basically a free punish if he does it while Lucario is on stage. However, there is a way for the PT to cancel most of the transformation lag time using moving platforms.
-MISC: He is light, floaty, and small. He can walljump, wallcling, and crawl.
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-You certainly have more range than him with Fsmash, but Squirtle has more speed to get around this. Be sure you space yourself accordingly.
-Squirtle is light, so he'll die relatively early if you can survive long enough.
-Learn to edgeguard a Squirtle effectively. Waterfall does not give a whole lot of horizontal distance, but gives a decent amount of vertical.
Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Squirtle has no projectiles (charged AS goes through Water Gun) or reflectors, so feel free to use Aura Sphere. However, Squirtle is fast, so be careful about how much you spam AS.
-Squirtle lacks raw killing power, so you should live to pretty high percents as long as you don't get KO'd by Dthrow. Once you have Aura, you know what to do...
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-His light and floaty nature prevent some combos from working on him. Keep this in mind.
-Squirtle's aerials are more superior than Lucario's and come out much faster. Lucario's fair can challenge his fair/bair, but his come out faster and have more priority.
-Squirtle can edgeguard a Lucario with Water Gun if you are using Extreme Speed. Therefore, be careful when you recover mid/high.
-When recovering low, be prepared for a bair/fair to the face. Also, watch out for runoff->bairs. This could lead to a stage spike.
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-I'm at a loss here...I don't know what are good stages for a Squirtle. I guess big open stages that allow aerial movement are good for a Squirtle. Also, Squirtle relies primarily on vertical kills, so low ceilings are probably bad.
IVYSAUR (aka the lesser of the three...)
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Dash attack: A surprisingly decent kill move at higher percents. Ivysaur is a hitbox while she is sliding along the ground, and it lasts a decent amount of time.
-Ftilt A decent multihitting poke move that is relatively safe even when shielded. Ivysaur leans forward while doing this move, so it's hard to shieldgrab when properly spaced. It also comes out relatively fast.
-Utilt: A decent anit-air move that hits directly above her. It can be used to dodge certain ground moves, since her hurtbox is lifted off the ground, but anyone who does this to avoid attacks regularly is werid...
-Fsmash: A decent kill move that is somewhat quick and somewhat hard to punish if spaced. You'll probably see it used more when you get into kill percents.
-Usmash: Undoubtedly her most useful kill move. It has a some startup and ending lag, but it can kill at somewhat low percents if you are hit. It's also disjointed and can beat out Lucario's dair.
-Fair: One of her possible aerial kill moves. It covers a large area in front of her.
-Uair: Think of an aerial usmash with less knockback and somewhat less range. Can propel Ivysaur downwards.
-Dair: Basically a upsidedown uair but with less knockback and can stall aerial movement. It can spike.
-Bair: Probably her best spacing tool, since very few non-projectile moves can challenge it, it has very little ending lag, and be spammed to discourage approaches. It does very little damage, but the primary purpose of this move is to annoy and space.
-Bullet Seed: A decent move if you get trapped in it, but you can SDI out. The initial frames can knock you into the seeds.
-Razer Leaf: This projectile has good priority over other projectiles, but is slow and can be canceled by regular attacks. Again, used mostly to annoy or force an approach. Can be angled.
-Vine Whip: This is pretty much her only method of recovery. It's a tether recovery and she can only use it once. As an attack, it's pretty beastly if you get hit by the tip, but it probably won't happen too often. It also has amazing priority (I don't think anything can clank with it, but my memory is fuzzy).
-Pokemon Change: Switches Pokemon...using this causes her to switch out with Charizard. Basically a free punish if she does it while Lucario is on stage. However, there is a way for the PT to cancel most of the transformation lag time using moving platforms.
-MISC: Can crawl.
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Be aware of her kill moves, especially usmash. Ideally, don't stay above her too much, because she has some decent anti-air moves. Her aerials are okay, but they have some startup time.
-If the Ivysaur starts playing keep away, throw some fully charged Aura Sphere.
-Taking damage is something an Ivysaur cannot afford. More damage equals more knockback, and this could result in death for an Ivysaur.
Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Learn to edgeguard Ivysaur. Walls of fair or Aura Sphere could mean death. Don't be surprised if you gimp an Ivysaur rather than outright KO her with a kill move, because it happens very often.
-While she does have kill moves, they do have some startup time. Keep yourself spaced away from these moves.
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Not particularly, just know that her bair is her main spacing tool.
-Be aware of her tether recovery. Retethering to the edge can lead into mindgames.
-Her tether has a DECEPTIVE amount of range. Be careful when trying to do a speed edgehog.
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
-Her main weakness is her recovery ability, so if a stage doesn't have tether-able edges, then it will put her at an automatic disadvantage. Avoid stages with no pits.
CHARIZARD (aka Bowser 2.0)
What moves or tactics should we watch out for?
-Utilt: A decent move for poking through platforms
-Dtilt: A really good poke move. It comes out fast, has very good range, and has very little ending lag.
-Fsmash: It has a lot of startup and ending lag, but it has a lot of knockback. One of his primary killmoves.
-Fair: A decent edgeguard and KO move that has weird properties. Charizard must hit you close with it in order to produce knockback. Otherwise, you will take damage but knockback.
-Uair: A decent juggle move, but it only has one hitbox and is not a sexkick despite its appearance of being one.
-Bair: Another decent KO move that must be sweetspotted in order to produce maximum effect. If you are set on fire, you were with the sweetspot.
-Dair: A spike move that has a small amount of startup time.
-Flamethrower: Basically the same as Bowser's fire breath, but with slightly more range, I think. Aura Sphere can cut through it.
-Rock Smash: This move has some different properties to it. You can either a) get hit and take a large amount of knockback or b) get hit and take a lot of damage, but not a lot of knockback. It has a good amount of shieldstun and can eat shields if used repeatedly.
-Fly: Charizard's recovery move. It has decent KO power at high percents, and also has Super Armor during the rising motion. It's very difficult to interrupt the move once it has been started.
Glide: Charizard can glide, but it is undoubtedly the worst one in the game because of its startup time. He can also Glide Attack, but once again, it's probably the worst one.
Dthrow: A possible KO move at higher percents, but it's weaker than Squirtle's IMO.
MISC: Big and heavy. Dash is faster than his walk. Has multiple jumps.
What moves or tactics should we try to enforce in this match up?
-Charizard has no projectiles or reflector, so feel free to use AS. He is a big target for AS.
-In terms of range, Charizard can challenge you with some of Lucario's moves. However, his moves are slower overall, so take full advantage of Lucario's lingering hitboxes.
-Force Palm chaingrab...you can use it but beware of attempts to escape it.
Do you feel Lucario has an advantage in any particular scenario of this matchup?
-Lucario probably wins in the aerial game, but Charizard can keep up with Lucario on the ground. Just watch out for those RAR bairs!
-Since Charizard is big and heavy, you can combo him somewhat easily.
Do you feel the opponent can shut down aspects of Lucario's game?
-Charizard is a "power" character, so his move will certainly do more damage than Lucario's early in the match. Be careful about getting KO'd early before taking advantage of Aura buffs.
-Don't be surprised if Charizard lives a long time if you don't have Aura.
Counterpicks? What to avoid and what to enforce?
Once again, I don't exactly know what to avoid or CP.
OVERALL: Most PTs know how to play at least one Pokemon very well, some learn two. It's very rare you'll find someone who is good with all three, so expect Squirtle to be one of their best. Squirtle is also probably the one that gives Lucario the most trouble. Charizard can give some trouble, but it can go either way. Ivysaur will probably give the least amount of trouble, but do not underestimate her. As a whole, I would say the matchup is somewhere near the NEUTRAL to borderline ADVANTAGE area depending on which Pokemon your opponent uses the most.
D. Disciple
Smash Master
Don't forget his shell shifting ability, makes him pretty fast, can cancel into jabs, grabs, he can hydroplane. Waterfall can be used to rack up damage as well and has enough knockback for squirtle to return to the stage safely.
CP - Stages that hinder him and the other pokemon as well. I'd take PT to any of the moving stages, except cruise. Since I hate cruise, SV, PS1? Lylat
CP - Stages that hinder him and the other pokemon as well. I'd take PT to any of the moving stages, except cruise. Since I hate cruise, SV, PS1? Lylat
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
gimping ivy, even a smart one off the right side of frigate would imo be a free stock off lol
Oh yeah, and even in a projectile war, we fire faster than her.
Oh yeah, and even in a projectile war, we fire faster than her.
F1ZZ
Smash Lord
Sorry if I am going back to an early MU but out of these stages what is the best for Lucario while playing a Sheik. Smashville, FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island or Rainbow Cruise? Also if you could give me the worst that would help alot.
T-block
B2B TST
Squirtle-
HUUUUGE HITBOXES. I find Lucario really annoying to play against with Squirtle because of how large his hitboxes are and how long they last, so use them to your advantage. With good spacing you can really force Squirtle to dance around your moves, which isn't easy. Killing is a serious issue for Squirtle as well... I now tend to bring out Squirtle when Lucario's already at higher percents, and I'm thinking most PTs with experience in this matchup will do the same. If they don't, and start Squirtle or something, you can play more defensively until fatigue kicks in. Fatigued Squirtle can't kill Lucario until like 180%.
Ivysaur-
Ivy's KO moves are hard to land. If you're constantly aware of them then Ivy will have a lot of trouble killing Lucario as well. I think after a bit of experience against Ivysaur you really shouldn't be having any problems. Just be smart about approaching - Ivy can punish poor approaches very well. Aura sphere beats out Razor Leaf in general, and don't let b-air frustrate you. It'll outrange all of Lucario's aerials, but you should realize it only does 4% max.
Charizard (ain't bowser lol)-
Yay KO moves. d-tilt, u-smash, Rock Smash can all KO reliably, and sweetspot Rock Smashes can get you to KO percents pretty quickly. U-smash in particular is surprisingly fast, so watch out for that. The shards of Rock Smash have deceptive range and duration, but you guys should know what that's like I think I like Charizard the best in this matchup, since he's got the kill power to prevent aura from getting too strong. Use his size against him - get the combos and chain throws in at low percents, and send out Aura Spheres if you've got space... it's annoying getting around them. Watch out for f-air gimps as well. One sweetspot f-air by the edge puts you in a pretty bad position, and if you don't have your double jump you're pretty much dead.
Each PT has a different playstyle, but for this matchup you can often expect to see Ivysaur's time minimized. Personally, I try to keep Charizard in the most, and when Squirtle gets out there he looks for the kill. If you play more defensively you can expect to see a lot of switching. Fatigue hurts us more in this matchup than in others, so we'll be trying to keep our pokemon fresh as long as possible.
As for stages, I would CP Lucario to small stages to help getting the kill... Halberd and Brinstar, for example. So, big stages would be good CPs. Luigi's Mansion if it's legal (although I always ban it against Lucario if it is legal), or PS1 is a good choice as well. I don't know how well you guys do on Jungle Japes, but it seems like a good idea as well. You could try to CP to take advantage of our below average recoveries as well. Rainbow Cruise and Frigate Orpheon are generally considered two of our worst stages for this reason.
HUUUUGE HITBOXES. I find Lucario really annoying to play against with Squirtle because of how large his hitboxes are and how long they last, so use them to your advantage. With good spacing you can really force Squirtle to dance around your moves, which isn't easy. Killing is a serious issue for Squirtle as well... I now tend to bring out Squirtle when Lucario's already at higher percents, and I'm thinking most PTs with experience in this matchup will do the same. If they don't, and start Squirtle or something, you can play more defensively until fatigue kicks in. Fatigued Squirtle can't kill Lucario until like 180%.
Ivysaur-
Ivy's KO moves are hard to land. If you're constantly aware of them then Ivy will have a lot of trouble killing Lucario as well. I think after a bit of experience against Ivysaur you really shouldn't be having any problems. Just be smart about approaching - Ivy can punish poor approaches very well. Aura sphere beats out Razor Leaf in general, and don't let b-air frustrate you. It'll outrange all of Lucario's aerials, but you should realize it only does 4% max.
Charizard (ain't bowser lol)-
Yay KO moves. d-tilt, u-smash, Rock Smash can all KO reliably, and sweetspot Rock Smashes can get you to KO percents pretty quickly. U-smash in particular is surprisingly fast, so watch out for that. The shards of Rock Smash have deceptive range and duration, but you guys should know what that's like
I think I like Charizard the best in this matchup, since he's got the kill power to prevent aura from getting too strong. Use his size against him - get the combos and chain throws in at low percents, and send out Aura Spheres if you've got space... it's annoying getting around them. Watch out for f-air gimps as well. One sweetspot f-air by the edge puts you in a pretty bad position, and if you don't have your double jump you're pretty much dead.Each PT has a different playstyle, but for this matchup you can often expect to see Ivysaur's time minimized. Personally, I try to keep Charizard in the most, and when Squirtle gets out there he looks for the kill. If you play more defensively you can expect to see a lot of switching. Fatigue hurts us more in this matchup than in others, so we'll be trying to keep our pokemon fresh as long as possible.
As for stages, I would CP Lucario to small stages to help getting the kill... Halberd and Brinstar, for example. So, big stages would be good CPs. Luigi's Mansion if it's legal (although I always ban it against Lucario if it is legal), or PS1 is a good choice as well. I don't know how well you guys do on Jungle Japes, but it seems like a good idea as well. You could try to CP to take advantage of our below average recoveries as well. Rainbow Cruise and Frigate Orpheon are generally considered two of our worst stages for this reason.
culexus・wau
Purchased premium only to change name ><
Be careful about bringing PT to mansion, Squirtle can get a free jab lock to whatever he wants off a grab and with hydrograb that isn't really that hard. </3 Alternatively Uptilt lead into a jab lock as well.
GreyClover
Smash Apprentice
Squirtle goes aganist Lucario fairly well. Watch out for his grab Squirtles at low percents can release into jabs (which comes out at frame one, ****) and at high percents Dthrow can kill so beware. Don't play dumb otherwise Squirtle will combo you with his aerials, punish bad spacing on aerials and **** him up. But most of all it's all about anticipation.
Ivysaur is the easiest out of the trio. She has like no priority in the air so that's definitely a place to take her too. Just don't get too spamhappy otherwise you'll get a Uair that hurts. Razor Leaf is no problem, most of our attacks clack with it and I'm pretty sure AS does too. Bullet seed can be a nuisance but as long as you don't get hit in the center, DI'ing shouldn't be too hard.
Charizard is fun to go against. On the ground he has tons of **** to throw out, grabs, crazy attack range, and tilts. Due to his weight chaingrab is effective, use it at the start of the match. Charizard has the least amout of jumps of any multi-jump character so pressure with aerials or AS when he's offstage. Now offstage Charizard can gimp pretty good as well if timed right. Fair shorta semi spikes and Dair if you're caught under the stage can pose a threat. Defensivly Charizard has a great UpB OoS and can kill.
Ivysaur is the easiest out of the trio. She has like no priority in the air so that's definitely a place to take her too. Just don't get too spamhappy otherwise you'll get a Uair that hurts. Razor Leaf is no problem, most of our attacks clack with it and I'm pretty sure AS does too. Bullet seed can be a nuisance but as long as you don't get hit in the center, DI'ing shouldn't be too hard.
Charizard is fun to go against. On the ground he has tons of **** to throw out, grabs, crazy attack range, and tilts. Due to his weight chaingrab is effective, use it at the start of the match. Charizard has the least amout of jumps of any multi-jump character so pressure with aerials or AS when he's offstage. Now offstage Charizard can gimp pretty good as well if timed right. Fair shorta semi spikes and Dair if you're caught under the stage can pose a threat. Defensivly Charizard has a great UpB OoS and can kill.
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
I'd take PT to Frigate lol. There's loads of issues on that stage for them, and good capitalization of it is key.
F1ZZ
Smash Lord
People answer my question!Sorry if I am going back to an early MU but out of these stages what is the best for Lucario while playing a Sheik. Smashville, FD, Battlefield, Yoshi's Island or Rainbow Cruise? Also if you could give me the worst that would help alot.
hough123
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Sep 18, 2007
- Messages
- 627
I'd have to say either FD or YI. Sheik's main beef with us is that she can't kill well, and we get stronger. I guessed these due to a higher level of survivability.
...That and the fact that Sheiks have NO FREAKING STAGE THREAD!
phi1ny3
Not the Mama
If you really want to make squirtle a lulzy battle, try to outspace him and stall him until he's fatigued, his kill power takes like 60% later to kill lol.
Frankly, I think we have good aerial control, we have enough tools to get him into the air, he has to approach obviously, and the only time we shouldn't use aerials is if he's on the ground and isn't committing to something obv. As long as you don't make very punishable aerials and use BAS in conjunction with fair, nair, uair, etc., I actually think squirtle shouldn't be as big a problem as most say he is, this isn't going to be a game where you'll want to "combo/string" or go aggro in any way, if you want to win this, you'll have to zone and play defensive. Squirtle still has a better chance of gimping us, although we can do the same to a good extent too. You have to remember the general rules of fighting faster aerials with our longer ranged ones, other wise this is going to be a nearly uphill match in terms of spacing and damage racking.
Obviously, squirtle's solid kill moves are usmash and dthrow, but fair/bair offstage will do the same if you don't watch out. gay away from the grab, and watch out for hydroplaned usmash, and you'll stay pretty dry for the match lol.
If you have problems with ivysaur, either you're playing Brawl + and aren't aware of it (lagless uairs and all that) or you have some serious issues. We actually outcamp razor leaf (BAS fires faster and has more use for pressure), we only really have issues with bair which isn't much of a problem (if he's bairing, there's a few options, like AS or if they aren't retreating it for some odd reason, rolling), uair is kinda telegraphed, usmash should not be an issue unless you get lulzly revenge KO'd after squirtle, and he gets gimped really badly from fair strings and AS.
Charizard is actually going to be a bit more different, rock smash iirc is safe on block unless PS'd, fair is a good gimp tool, so if you see it coming, remember to back away just a little bit offstage and dair stall then retaliate if you want to, 'zard's grab is annoying as it has good reach and comes out pretty fast (plus has some decent followup power). Luckily he's going to be more of a "bat away" character for us, which is a bad character design against lucario if you have to approach. AS will very likely make him either exposed in ways if you've truly mastered it's utility (which is expected at high levels of play), or he'll take to the air, which is the worst option of the two. Charizard is juggle bait, although I'd watch out for bair since it comes out fast and has a low flying trajectory. If you don't get gimped and watch out for early kills, this matchup gets exponentially easier.
I'd say an overall advantage is in order, but I won't exactly know the numbers, although I'd say 60:40/65:35 is a good number against Ivysaur, and maybe 55:45/60:40 for Charizard. I don't know where to put my finger on squirtle as he's made some big jumps, but I'd say 50:50/55:45 leaning towards 50:50. On the other hand, if Poke trainer wasn't too busy screaming at his pokemanz all day and he'd reach into his ball pocket and pull out a Master ball...
Edit: and like I said, I like the idea of going to frigate, like A LOT. Similarly, I like JJ. Has anyone tested whether changing pokemon during the stage flipping = autokill? That would be lulzy.
Frankly, I think we have good aerial control, we have enough tools to get him into the air, he has to approach obviously, and the only time we shouldn't use aerials is if he's on the ground and isn't committing to something obv. As long as you don't make very punishable aerials and use BAS in conjunction with fair, nair, uair, etc., I actually think squirtle shouldn't be as big a problem as most say he is, this isn't going to be a game where you'll want to "combo/string" or go aggro in any way, if you want to win this, you'll have to zone and play defensive. Squirtle still has a better chance of gimping us, although we can do the same to a good extent too. You have to remember the general rules of fighting faster aerials with our longer ranged ones, other wise this is going to be a nearly uphill match in terms of spacing and damage racking.
Obviously, squirtle's solid kill moves are usmash and dthrow, but fair/bair offstage will do the same if you don't watch out. gay away from the grab, and watch out for hydroplaned usmash, and you'll stay pretty dry for the match lol.
If you have problems with ivysaur, either you're playing Brawl + and aren't aware of it (lagless uairs and all that) or you have some serious issues. We actually outcamp razor leaf (BAS fires faster and has more use for pressure), we only really have issues with bair which isn't much of a problem (if he's bairing, there's a few options, like AS or if they aren't retreating it for some odd reason, rolling), uair is kinda telegraphed, usmash should not be an issue unless you get lulzly revenge KO'd after squirtle, and he gets gimped really badly from fair strings and AS.
Charizard is actually going to be a bit more different, rock smash iirc is safe on block unless PS'd, fair is a good gimp tool, so if you see it coming, remember to back away just a little bit offstage and dair stall then retaliate if you want to, 'zard's grab is annoying as it has good reach and comes out pretty fast (plus has some decent followup power). Luckily he's going to be more of a "bat away" character for us, which is a bad character design against lucario if you have to approach. AS will very likely make him either exposed in ways if you've truly mastered it's utility (which is expected at high levels of play), or he'll take to the air, which is the worst option of the two. Charizard is juggle bait, although I'd watch out for bair since it comes out fast and has a low flying trajectory. If you don't get gimped and watch out for early kills, this matchup gets exponentially easier.
I'd say an overall advantage is in order, but I won't exactly know the numbers, although I'd say 60:40/65:35 is a good number against Ivysaur, and maybe 55:45/60:40 for Charizard. I don't know where to put my finger on squirtle as he's made some big jumps, but I'd say 50:50/55:45 leaning towards 50:50. On the other hand, if Poke trainer wasn't too busy screaming at his pokemanz all day and he'd reach into his ball pocket and pull out a Master ball...
Edit: and like I said, I like the idea of going to frigate, like A LOT. Similarly, I like JJ. Has anyone tested whether changing pokemon during the stage flipping = autokill? That would be lulzy.
RT
Smash Hero
I know that it is possible for PT to kill himself during Castle Siege's transformations. I played against someone that tried switching to Ivysaur during the third->first transformation and Ivysaur did not pop out until AFTER the floor was already disappearing. If I had stayed on the edge, he would have died.
Jungle Japes would be a decent counterpick. Some people hate that stage though...
Jungle Japes would be a decent counterpick. Some people hate that stage though...
F1ZZ
Smash Lord
Also Jungle Japes is banned in some tournaments. For PT my counter pick would be Yoshi's Island.