At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

Revven · Dec 17, 2009

Just so everyone knows (I am assuming this, correct me if I am wrong Cape and co.):

Gravity probably was not tweaked for the fact that it would affect moves a heck of a lot differently and finding the right grav for some characters could take awhile. In other words, it would make the build take longer to come out and it would require us to likely go through any and all move specific changes and redo them to suit the gravity changes and so forth. While yes it would probably make the hitstun feel a lot better as a result, it would be a huge undertaking that none of us probably have a lot of time to do right now.

Although, it may get done at some point down the line. Note the "may" in that sentence, I'm trying not to make an empty promise. :x

The Cape · Dec 17, 2009

Made a few minor grav tweaks (wee bit of Ugrav to a few chars).

That was the only change, I dont even remember the chars since then >.>

D.B.K. · Dec 17, 2009

Did you change Falco's Ugrav? It feels like his short hop peaks faster.

Jumping out of shine isn't working for me. . .

The Cape · Dec 17, 2009

Can only jump out of shine on the frame that he catches the shine (and after that)

Edit:
DATA TIME!

Falco shine in vBrawl ended on frame 51 and was caught on frame 32
In RC1 shine finished completely on frame 40
In GSH2 shine is CAUGHT on frame 40 (giving him the jump IASA) and ends on frame 62.

Same speed, damage reduced with compensated KB, and jump only makes the move actually punishable without losing its comboability.

In GSH1 and RC1 shine was unpunishable even from powersheild. Falco could jab before you could get there. Now to jump he has to add 5 frames (airborne on 6) and then AD (invulnerable frame 3). Therefore adding about 9 frames of punishment to the shine that you can catch him on if its properly dodged or blocked.

MK26 · Dec 17, 2009

^^why we need a changelist

The Cape · Dec 17, 2009

MK26 said:
^^why we need a changelist

**** changelists. Go learn your character.

If this was a new game you would have to anyway. Stop assuming **** works (thats the RC1 mindset) and go learn to actually play your character.

[TSON] · Dec 17, 2009

OK Cape seriously

Tell us what moves to examine for changes.

"Find the thing in the pile of things" isn't going to help us at all in comparison to "Find the needle in the haystack", at least then you know what you're looking for

The Cape · Dec 17, 2009

Very few changes are major, most of them are just minor tweaks to moves to make them work properly or make them more useful or less broken. The game overall has just been cleaned up since GSH1.

Changelists just lead to people doing things like "That didnt need nerfed" and write a 30 page essay on it before they ever try it, and lo and behold in the end....its a buff.

Has happened at least twice in the backroom alone and I just plain hate it. Remove your biases by reading a changelist and go make your own opinions and assumptions from gameplay. Thats how tourney games should be, and thats what determines who the best player is. The Ness boards is actually the perfect example: Keep asking for buffs since the changelist barely says anything and you get a completely broken character.

Go by feel, not by paper.

VietGeek · Dec 17, 2009

Wow, Continuum Shift is already here?! Splendid!

A fresh new shiny game for me to explore every nook and cranny, search for every change, and hope to maximize my characters' potential!

What still works from Calamity Trigger? What doesn't? I hope my characters didn't get nerfed too much. ^_^ I know top got nerfed; hehe I wonder what's left to salvage...

I bet lower characters got some nice Christmas presents too!

But alas Christmas came early, yay Continuum Shift!

[TSON] · Dec 17, 2009

ok listen to me dawg :V

TELL US WHAT MOVES ARE CHANGED, NOT WHAT IS DONE TO THEM

PLEASE KTHX

ValTroX · Dec 17, 2009

The Cape said:
Can only jump out of shine on the frame that he catches the shine (and after that)

Edit:
DATA TIME!

Falco shine in vBrawl ended on frame 51 and was caught on frame 32
In RC1 shine finished completely on frame 40
In GSH2 shine is CAUGHT on frame 40 (giving him the jump IASA) and ends on frame 62.

Same speed, damage reduced with compensated KB, and jump only makes the move actually punishable without losing its comboability.

In GSH1 and RC1 shine was unpunishable even from powersheild. Falco could jab before you could get there. Now to jump he has to add 5 frames (airborne on 6) and then AD (invulnerable frame 3). Therefore adding about 9 frames of punishment to the shine that you can catch him on if its properly dodged or blocked.

I do agree it was not punishable on the previous sets, but i think there are too many extra frames, still,i gotta try it agains real players

. About Ganondorf's Dthrow, i kinda like it. I'll keep looking at the changes when we get a change list, but what I've seen so far, not a bad set, keep up the great work guys

Thunderhorse+ · Dec 17, 2009

Oh good I get to try out Sonic changes

.

For the record, I felt the Falco shine changes clash with Falco's style (similar to Squirtle's epic dropkick fair), but I agree that it needed to be more punishable. and from a purely technical standpoint, it achieves what Cape meant it to. I have a different fix in the works that I want to run by Cape that'll make it more fluid while still keeping it punishable, though I still need research on how many frames it takes for Falco's FH to peak (and even a return of an old mechanic for it that he took out between the beta set I had and the set that's been released to all of you).

Overall though I've played with a great majority of the set and think it's incredibly solid. GJ to Cape and anyone else who contributed to it.

*psyched for NADT replacement*

EDIT: Just because Continuum Shift was referenced...

KIMOUCHI DAROU~!

˙ ‿ ˙ ˙ ‿ ˙ ˙ ‿ ˙

DaiAndOh · Dec 17, 2009

VietGeek said:
Wow, Continuum Shift is already here?! Splendid!

A fresh new shiny game for me to explore every nook and cranny, search for every change, and hope to maximize my characters' potential!

What still works from Calamity Trigger? What doesn't? I hope my characters didn't get nerfed too much. ^_^ I know top got nerfed; hehe I wonder what's left to salvage...

I bet lower characters got some nice Christmas presents too!

But alas Christmas came early, yay Continuum Shift!

We have the mystical entity known as the Japanese to do that stuff for us though!

But yeah, I understand the need. Though I think it should be posted in a few days for clarification's sake, especially so we can give full feedback.

MyLifeIsAnRPG · Dec 17, 2009

Played a little, not totally in depth. I'd like to say that personally, I think its a bit hard to beta test without a change-list. Normally I take characters and isolate moves that I know have changed and see their capabilities.

However, since we have already beaten that dead horse.

First of all the whole game feels a lot smoother. GSH1 felt kind of unresponsive, but characters seem to move more naturally now. Big plus.

Ganon's d-throw. Not sure how I feel. Haven't yet found a good follow up to it. Tried jab, d-air, dtilt, and much mroe but it seems unreliable. Still, a 9 damage "stay right there" move is useful, and btw, spiking people with this is now the most fun I think that can be had in this game.

Squirtles new F-air is exactly what I wanted. You have to commit to it but it comes out fast. Its alsso got power behind it and changes his momentum so it really fits his playstyle.

I can'tt ell what has happened to ike and marth's sounters but they look differnet. I only have the computer to play with now so I'll have to get a friend over to do some one on oen serious playtesting.

Also, I have no idea what you did to Luigi, but he destroyed me! I kept getting caught in his tornados, and he landed shoryukens on me ALL THE TIME. I think I might pick him up.

TLMSheikant · Dec 17, 2009

I want to test this with a friend. But, I wanted to ask something...if I have GSH2 and he doesnt have any version of +, can I still play + with him?

CT Chia · Dec 17, 2009

Yeroc said:
The biggest change in this set is just the removal of NADT.

YES YES YES YES YES

lol i cant wait to try this new build

is there a full changelist somewhere?

so if you airdodge from tumble, the invincibility frames dont start up as fast as normal?

[TSON] · Dec 17, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
I want to test this with a friend. But, I wanted to ask something...if I have GSH2 and he doesnt have any version of +, can I still play + with him?

if he comes over your house then yes

:V

Shadic · Dec 17, 2009

Hrm... Things I've noted so far that probably didn't actually get changed:
Link's Zair weak hit seems to have a lower angle, knocking into the sweetspot. (Awesome)
Link had his Ugrav change? Jump seems way faster.
Bomb BKB increase? Maybe? (It was pretty low.)
UpB aerial seems improved, or something. KB seems higher than GSH1, for sure.

Haven't played much recently, so there's my johns.

TLMSheikant · Dec 17, 2009

TheSilenceOfNoOne said:
if he comes over your house then yes

:V

Oops, lmao I forgot "wifi".

Isatis · Dec 17, 2009

TLMSheikant said:
I want to test this with a friend. But, I wanted to ask something...if I have GSH2 and he doesnt have any version of +, can I still play + with him?

It'll desynch unless he has + too

TLMSheikant · Dec 17, 2009

Aww

. That's too bad. thanks for the info.

Sterowent · Dec 17, 2009

no kirby changes, i take it? for the life of me, i haven't noticed anything. all his throws seem the same, the aerials seem the same. swallow is the same.

you know, i haven't tried his copied abilities though.

does anybody see anything different about him i'm not getting? not that i expected any changes, eheh. he doesn't garner (edit) a lot of attention...

MK26 · Dec 17, 2009

garnish is definitely the wrong word.
garner?

Maybe compare the pacs to see if there are any differences?

Thunderhorse+ · Dec 18, 2009

MK26 said:
Maybe compare the pacs to see if there are any differences?

I thought Cape said "play your character", not "reverse engineer .pacs" :rolleyes:

ValTroX · Dec 18, 2009

TLM, tell him to get B+, there's a version which doesn't require hbc if he's afraid of hacking his wii

MK26 · Dec 18, 2009

Thunderhorse+ said:
I thought Cape said "play your character", not "reverse engineer .pacs"

hey, if im told 'measure the properties of that nail in the wall', i think step 1 is taking it out and step 2 is measuring, not the other way around

10badanalogies

Thunderhorse+ · Dec 18, 2009

MK26 said:
hey, if im told 'measure the properties of that nail in the wall', i think step 1 is taking it out and step 2 is measuring, not the other way around

10badanalogies

If I were you, I would've kicked the whole **** wall down then measure

.

metaphorgotten.

GHNeko · Dec 18, 2009

So can someone tell me why Marth can't SHDF. At all.

Alphatron · Dec 18, 2009

:V said:
So can someone tell me why Marth can't SHDF. At all.

Why is Sage posting from Neko's account?

GHNeko · Dec 18, 2009

Can you do it? If so, I need to redownload the set. Because I can't.

Cuz SHDF is like...the easiest thing to do with Marth. So if i downloaded the set properly, and I can't do it. Then obv something is amiss.

MK26 · Dec 18, 2009

Alphatron said:
Why is Sage posting from Neko's account?

ROFLMFAO

CT Chia · Dec 18, 2009

The Cape said:
**** changelists. Go learn your character.

If this was a new game you would have to anyway. Stop assuming **** works (thats the RC1 mindset) and go learn to actually play your character.

wtf cape, you cant just say things like that. we can learn vBrawl cause its a single game thats not changing straight up official build. this is a brawl+ nightly, what are we supposed to do, learn every bit of every character every single night? yea no thx

why was falcos shine changed i dont get it

matt4300 · Dec 18, 2009

Ah, **** the mario ugrav is so good. No more 1 and 1/3 uairs. I need to do more testing but it feels like his fair is safe on shield now!

GHNeko · Dec 18, 2009

Mario's legit. Hella legit.

Good **** Cape on Mario.

But not on Marth. At. All.

****** character's main tactics ftl.

Dan_X · Dec 18, 2009

I'll have to try this out asap. Though, I'm busy with MW2 and TF2 (new update!!!). Anyway, I'm not too psyched for the Falco shine changes... however, I'll just have to see how they affect him in game.

More on Falco (and my other mains) later.

DaiAndOh · Dec 18, 2009

This are things I am speculating now that haven't been posted:

Pit: Fthrow more knockback?
Sonic: Faster fsmash?
MK: Can't 2 hits of nair.

GHNeko · Dec 18, 2009

MK's Nair is slower now. Yea.

DaiAndOh · Dec 18, 2009

Fox: Cannot JC shine. Really sure about this.
Sheik: Dthrow....sends lower?! No not THAT low.

iLink · Dec 18, 2009

:V said:
So can someone tell me why Marth can't SHDF. At all.

I didn't believe you at first but I tried it and almost cried. Apparently fair has A LOT more cooldown then before so not only can you not SHDF, it's not as useful even when it's not in a shorthop.

EDIT:

Mk falls faster now too
Lucario's uthrow has more BKB, possibly more KBG too.

DaiAndOh · Dec 18, 2009

How much damage did Luigi's tornado do before? It does 8-10 now at least. THink it used to do in the teens.
Maybe has an increased sweetspot on upB? Doubt it though.

I want to say Sonic's uair links better. But I think that may need human testing.

Diddy uair has more lag?

I think I'm going to bed now, finals in morning.

At long last, Presenting GSH2, a Brawl+ Nightly Test Set and Discussion Topic

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