NH Cody
Smash Champion
Guys, lately I've been losing to Links, Kirbies and Olimars 
That's how slow I am =/
Teach me how to win these MUs
That's how slow I am =/
Teach me how to win these MUs
-
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Sonic The Hedgehog: Community Matchup thread
- Thread starter Chis
- Start date
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
go to tourneys that have better sonics at them.
Kinzer
Mammy
Olimar is (a) gay (matchup), so don't beat yourself up if you have trouble with him.
I can understand Link too... Assuming you have next to no matchup experience with him. All you probably have to do is play that matchup more often and I don't see why you can't get the hang of it.
I don't play any Kirby so I can't say anything about that matchup.
If you want me to go specifically into either Olimar or Link, let me know and I can try to give you some food for thought.
I can understand Link too... Assuming you have next to no matchup experience with him. All you probably have to do is play that matchup more often and I don't see why you can't get the hang of it.
I don't play any Kirby so I can't say anything about that matchup.
If you want me to go specifically into either Olimar or Link, let me know and I can try to give you some food for thought.
SoupaSonic
Smash Journeyman
uh...this isn't a shocker but I'm having trouble with Meta Knight lol. idk how to punish or if I even can punish. I usually try to punish nado and f-smash but when I do I get d-smashed immediately. Oh and olimar is a problem for me too but idk how to explain it (not much experience against him ) all I know is that he's sorta easy to gimp
) all I know is that he's sorta easy to gimp
Kinzer
Mammy
... I don't think you can actually punish MK's FSmash. That attack has so little ending lag that it almost sets up it's own wall. D:
Lol, I almost said DSmash out of habit. Curse this character.
Lol, I almost said DSmash out of habit. Curse this character.
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
I think that is a bit biased on what you're doing to avoid it.
Kinzer
Mammy
What do you mean biased?
I speak from experience when I say you cannot directly punish his FSmash.
Shielding it will push you back, trying to run in after that will only have you eat another attack. You have to be really **** good with Powershielding to overcome this.
Trying an aerial approach will not have much success either. It reaches so high up, or at least in proportion with his body, which is very small. You would have to start the moment he started charging it, but then if that's the case, what Meta Knight's are you playing that use a slow start-up attack upclose?
Unless you meant something else?
I speak from experience when I say you cannot directly punish his FSmash.
Shielding it will push you back, trying to run in after that will only have you eat another attack. You have to be really **** good with Powershielding to overcome this.
Trying an aerial approach will not have much success either. It reaches so high up, or at least in proportion with his body, which is very small. You would have to start the moment he started charging it, but then if that's the case, what Meta Knight's are you playing that use a slow start-up attack upclose?
Unless you meant something else?
Zatchiel
a little slice of heaven 🍰
If it's not punishable, don't try to punish it.
I know not to run in on MK after shielding an Fsmash or Dsmash, it's not worth another attack he's prepped to unleash. I'd rather run farther away from MK and wait, since he can just as easily use a quick start Dash-Attack after his Fsmash, which can cover any range you were looking to punish.
If you're going to dash attack, he does have OoS options that far out-range that.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
Could you? It would help
Kinzer
Mammy
;~;
I thought I was making the point of not tryi-
Nevermind I guess. My mistake.
Against Fsmash, the shieldpush puts you out of range of fast follow ups like dsmash, grab. ftilt. Its also too slow for him to just do it again, so punishing Fsmash is more about reading his next action. If you see it coming you can just jump over him and drop a spring (which can lead into better stuff).
As for tornado, it always has 29 frames of lag at least. How that lag occurs depends on how high off the ground it ends. If it ends right above your head, you can dsmash, fair or uair if you aren't sure which side he will land on.
As for tornado, it always has 29 frames of lag at least. How that lag occurs depends on how high off the ground it ends. If it ends right above your head, you can dsmash, fair or uair if you aren't sure which side he will land on.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
but if the mk ends it at the right height, you have to grab him before he lands or else he will land with no lag.
SoupaSonic
Smash Journeyman
ok thank you guys
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
Can we rediscuss the Sonic vs. Fox MU? Mr.MalCUM McNutty thinks the MU hasn't changed since 2008 and speed and I beg to differ. I'm not an expert in this MU in the slightest but was wondering what other sonics thought about it.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
apparently speed seems to think the matchup is terrible, seeing as meeps fox just gave him the **** in tournament yesterday
*smirk*
*smirk*
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
I don't think it's terrible, I just think fox either
A. Beats sonic but doesn't completely decimate him and needs to be rediscussed
or
B. Needs to be rediscussed so people know what they're doing wrong if it is even.
A. Beats sonic but doesn't completely decimate him and needs to be rediscussed
or
B. Needs to be rediscussed so people know what they're doing wrong if it is even.
NH Cody
Smash Champion
Yeah let's talk about
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
wowoowowowoowowo...
no.
just no.
sonic does not, did not, and will not ever kill better than fox.
ive never seen anyone live past 200 vs fox.
dk at times lives to 250+ vs us.
not to mention, youre supposed to SDI the dair to the sides so that the followups miss. what good is SDIing a move up, when its sending you back down...
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
If you tech the floor he'll just usmash again lmao. Putting yourself in a worse position than just SDIng the dair to the side and getting the hell out. SDI to the sides plz. I @ least know that much :s
Exceladon City
Smash Hero
Fox isn't a threat. Avoid the dairs or treat them like Nado and shield with it tilted up and punish. When you're at kill percents you just camp the FK out of the very obvious Usmash. Also, do not spring > dair at KO percents, which is like 90%+ because Fox can and WILL ruin you for it. DI dthrow up, jab > grab is a frametrap, so you'll probably catch those often. SDI Fair down. I don't know about SDI on Utilt. Ask Mr. Doom. He played Zeton for 2 years so he knows all that jazz.
WedginatorX
Smash Champion
*fixed lulz.
If you DI to the sides, he can still hyphen smash you or pivot and smash you can't he?
You have to SDI up so you will be in the air when the upsmash hits so you can SDI down and tech the floor and roll away. Then you should be able to jump in time to SDI down and tech the next upsmash. Eventually he will run out of room and your tech roll will be ledge cancelled and you can get back to the fight.
100% serious here.
On a more serious note, you shouldn't spring to dair when it will get you punished, it's all situational here, but fox is fast and powerful, but once you have used spring, he won't have any trouble following you, dair or not.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
if he cant just immediately up smash, which means he has to use up frames following you. those are frames that you will be using to get out of hitstun so you can shield said up smash
Trillion
Smash Ace
Fox's best killing move is his upsmash. So, once you are in killing range, this attack is what you should be most worried about.
Fox's dair can lead into upsmash or dsmash, but if you SDI to the side, (i personally have an accidental tendency to do side and down and it seems to work) and hold your shield, then you will land and your shield will come out fast enough to block the attack. They may start doing dair > grab if you keep shielding it, but getting thrown is def. better than getting killed. However, if this becomes the case every time, then you can actually shield grab faster than Fox can.
Make sure to watch out for tech chase hyphen smashes. If at any point you get knocked over, then be careful with your recovery, because otherwise a fox will just chase your tech and hyphen smash you.
Spring > dair is especially dangerous here, because one smart read by the Fox can have you eating that fatal hyphen smash and Fox's speed is enough to pull it off. This is one of my own personal worst habits against Fox's. It's actually probably safer to not use spring > dair at all in this match up (except if it's clearly obvious that Fox is offstage or something where he couldn't punish you). Homing attack should also be used even more scarcely used here for this same reason.
His bair can kill at decent percents, but it has small range and with his high fall speed, he is limited in his ability to effectively use it in most situations. So, while it should be noted to avoid this, it isn't a huge worry.
A well spaced fair or bair can outreach firefox (even when it is charging) as well as beating his rising fair, so gimping is possible, but learning the right spacing and timing is crucial to actually pulling it off. I have a lot of Fox vs. Sonic experience, but I still am inconsistent with it.
Down tilt can be chained if you read Fox's DI correctly and space it right allowing some shenanigans at low percents.
Fox and Sonic have roughly the same range, priority, etc. in most cases. Neither has a sword or any of that unjointed hitbox nonsense.
Fox can kill better than us. We can rack up damage much faster. In my mind this match comes down to the following situation. To win, Sonic must rack up damage to the point that Fox reaches our killing percentage earlier than we reach his so that we have opportunities to look for the killing blow without being quite in his killing range. (We have to get Fox to reach about 120% before we reach about 90%.) This gives a buffer where you can fail a few times and take some damage (which is likely to happen due to the similar range and priority)while you attempt to earn the kill. After you reach his killing percentage, you have to start playing it really safe. The more chances you have at earning the kill while you aren't in danger, the more likely you are to kill him first. Then, you have to keep this pace up for the whole match.
How do you rack up damage faster? By pressuring Fox. Sonic should never be far enough away that Fox can use his laser except when he knocks you away. The rest of the time, you should close enough that a Fox would have to be stupid to think that he could get even one laser out without being punished. Fox doesn't have the priority to outreach you, but you have the capability to mindgame him into whiffing attacks. Punish him each time. Pressure causes the opponent to make snap decisions which means they are more likely to make mistakes. If a Fox tries to illusion through you at this point, then that is a good sign that your pressure is effectively bothering them, because they use the illusion to disrupt it.
When you can, punish that illusion. If you aren't in position to, that's ok. Just go back to pressuring and watch for them to illusion again. Many Fox's often have a tell that you can catch on to. Some like to give a short hop backwards to draw you in before illusioning. Others like to use it after a low lag attack where you might be tempted to try to punish. Keep an eye out for this because if you can read it, then it can lead to an opportunity for an Fsmash for you.
Fox's dair can lead into upsmash or dsmash, but if you SDI to the side, (i personally have an accidental tendency to do side and down and it seems to work) and hold your shield, then you will land and your shield will come out fast enough to block the attack. They may start doing dair > grab if you keep shielding it, but getting thrown is def. better than getting killed. However, if this becomes the case every time, then you can actually shield grab faster than Fox can.
Make sure to watch out for tech chase hyphen smashes. If at any point you get knocked over, then be careful with your recovery, because otherwise a fox will just chase your tech and hyphen smash you.
Spring > dair is especially dangerous here, because one smart read by the Fox can have you eating that fatal hyphen smash and Fox's speed is enough to pull it off. This is one of my own personal worst habits against Fox's. It's actually probably safer to not use spring > dair at all in this match up (except if it's clearly obvious that Fox is offstage or something where he couldn't punish you). Homing attack should also be used even more scarcely used here for this same reason.
His bair can kill at decent percents, but it has small range and with his high fall speed, he is limited in his ability to effectively use it in most situations. So, while it should be noted to avoid this, it isn't a huge worry.
A well spaced fair or bair can outreach firefox (even when it is charging) as well as beating his rising fair, so gimping is possible, but learning the right spacing and timing is crucial to actually pulling it off. I have a lot of Fox vs. Sonic experience, but I still am inconsistent with it.
Down tilt can be chained if you read Fox's DI correctly and space it right allowing some shenanigans at low percents.
Fox and Sonic have roughly the same range, priority, etc. in most cases. Neither has a sword or any of that unjointed hitbox nonsense.
Fox can kill better than us. We can rack up damage much faster. In my mind this match comes down to the following situation. To win, Sonic must rack up damage to the point that Fox reaches our killing percentage earlier than we reach his so that we have opportunities to look for the killing blow without being quite in his killing range. (We have to get Fox to reach about 120% before we reach about 90%.) This gives a buffer where you can fail a few times and take some damage (which is likely to happen due to the similar range and priority)while you attempt to earn the kill. After you reach his killing percentage, you have to start playing it really safe. The more chances you have at earning the kill while you aren't in danger, the more likely you are to kill him first. Then, you have to keep this pace up for the whole match.
How do you rack up damage faster? By pressuring Fox. Sonic should never be far enough away that Fox can use his laser except when he knocks you away. The rest of the time, you should close enough that a Fox would have to be stupid to think that he could get even one laser out without being punished. Fox doesn't have the priority to outreach you, but you have the capability to mindgame him into whiffing attacks. Punish him each time. Pressure causes the opponent to make snap decisions which means they are more likely to make mistakes. If a Fox tries to illusion through you at this point, then that is a good sign that your pressure is effectively bothering them, because they use the illusion to disrupt it.
When you can, punish that illusion. If you aren't in position to, that's ok. Just go back to pressuring and watch for them to illusion again. Many Fox's often have a tell that you can catch on to. Some like to give a short hop backwards to draw you in before illusioning. Others like to use it after a low lag attack where you might be tempted to try to punish. Keep an eye out for this because if you can read it, then it can lead to an opportunity for an Fsmash for you.
Seagull Joe
Smash Legend
LOLWTFLMAONO.
LolNo. Fox can also kill with Bair pretty easily. Fox can camp with lasers very well. TSHL can give Sonic 8% in one short hop. Not to mention Fox is faster then Sonic in the air by a large margin.
XLR8TION
Smash Ace
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thats tru but kinda risky cuz just running up to him while hes doin SHDL can lead to a upsmash to the moon, or thats just wat happens to me <_<
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
the bair part is correct but the rest of the post is horribly inaccurate.
1. fox cant camp sonic, ever.
2. the first two lasers in the SHTL go right over sonics head. ganon, ddd, and bowser are pretty much the only characters that are tall enough to get hit by all three lasers.
3. vertically fox is faster in the air than every character in the game. (or close to it)
Horizontally, fox is the slowest moving character in the game in the air. (or close to it.)
It's almost never safe to shoot a lazer at sonic. the space animal has short hop it or be farther than FD's length away.
Are you guys positive Sonic's spindash roll will go under Falco's laser? I always remember getting hit by it when i try to roll.
Are you guys positive Sonic's spindash roll will go under Falco's laser? I always remember getting hit by it when i try to roll.
Trillion
Smash Ace
The bair is a strong move that kills at good percents. I don't disagree with that. However, the spacing for it is small (even smaller than Sonic's bair) and it is hard for him to land it against a grounded opponent because the timing is small due to his high fall speed. It's also just plain not as reliable as upsmash. How often do you see Fox kill with bair? It's used WAY less than upsmash.
Sonic can cover all of final destination in 60 frames. Unless Fox has JUST knocked Sonic away from him, then he doesn't even have time to short hop double laser let alone try short hop triple laser. Fox is faster vertically in the air, but not even close to Sonic's speed horizontally.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
also, if your fighting a fox main who actually practices the character saying bair is hard to hit with is a non factor because they practice the spacing and are able to hit with it at any time.
Hell I dont even play fox like that any more and I can still bair a ducking kirby.
And the reason you dont see more foxs killing with bair is that, people are still ******** when they play against him so they just get upsmashed. If people were smart enough to attempt to not get up smashed so easily, foxs would be forced to used bair more often.
Hell I dont even play fox like that any more and I can still bair a ducking kirby.
And the reason you dont see more foxs killing with bair is that, people are still ******** when they play against him so they just get upsmashed. If people were smart enough to attempt to not get up smashed so easily, foxs would be forced to used bair more often.
Trillion
Smash Ace
I'm not disagreeing that it can be used or that good foxes will use it effectively. I'm simply saying that you should be more wary of the upsmash than the bair. Upsmash is easier to land and is stronger. Because of this, one should be more prepared to DI an upsmash than a bair. I'm not at all insinuating that bair should be completely ignored nor am I saying that Fox users won't ever bair.
Trent
Smash Champion
Is there anyway we can discuss Wolf once more?
I dunno, I still have troubles with that spacie. Is there a really good Sonic v Wolf video maybe?
I dunno, I still have troubles with that spacie. Is there a really good Sonic v Wolf video maybe?
NH Cody
Smash Champion
Sure we can.
Well, what I know is that wolf has bad recovery, so I guess we should try and gimp him. Especially since he can kill better than us. We can't shieldgrab bair, since it has super range and our grab range is bad. I think dtilt is good for OOS, and so is ftilt. We should know how to powershield so we can shield the lasers/dsmashes and then punish. And look out for fsmash since it has a big range.
Well, what I know is that wolf has bad recovery, so I guess we should try and gimp him. Especially since he can kill better than us. We can't shieldgrab bair, since it has super range and our grab range is bad. I think dtilt is good for OOS, and so is ftilt. We should know how to powershield so we can shield the lasers/dsmashes and then punish. And look out for fsmash since it has a big range.
Sonic-Rave
Smash Journeyman
If I remember correctly, Wolf's fsmash should always be a free punish for Sonic because if you shield it, he ends up behind you and you can punish. If you do get hit by it however, I think you can DI up and avoid the second hit in which case you can punish.
Don't quote me on this though because I may have NO idea what i'm talking about.
Don't quote me on this though because I may have NO idea what i'm talking about.
da K.I.D.
Smash Hero
I did a really long write up of how to fight wolf I thought chis would have put it in the OP...