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(0.2) - Basics For any general questions you may have on playing King Dedede, consult this thread for an appropriate thread.
(0.3) - The Purpose of This Thread
Each week we will discuss a different matchup and then I will review the discussions of the matchup and write a summary, quoting the post or posts that most accurately reflect the opinions expressed about the matchup as well as useful tactics to use.
(0.4) - What NOT To Do In This Thread IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THE NUMBERS ON A PARTICULAR MATCHUP, PM ME.
IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH THE DISCUSSION ORDER PM ME.
IF YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH ANOTHER POSTER BEING A DOUCHE AND IT IS NOT RELEVANT TO A TOPIC, PM THEM OR, IF IT'S REALLY BAD, REPORT IT.
DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, HIJACK THE CURRENT MATCHUP DISCUSSION TO TALK ABOUT ANY OF THE ABOVE.
Let me say that again.
DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE, HIJACK THE CURRENT MATCHUP DISCUSSION TO TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT COULD BE TOLD TO ME DIRECTLY OR TO START A FLAME WAR.
Any feedback is more than welcome.
(1.1) - Table of Contents
To find a particular section, use ctrl+f (apple+f for Mac users) on your keyboard to find the section number in parenthesis (for faster results, include the parenthesis).
SECTION 0 - INTRODUCTION
(0.1) - Foreword from lain
(0.2) - Basics
(0.3) - The Purpose of This Thread
(0.4) - What NOT To Do In This Thread
SECTION 1 - INDEX
(1.1) - Table of Contents
SECTION 2 - MATCHUP LIST
(2.0) - What Matchup Numbers Really Mean <- READ THIS BEFORE YOU WHINE ABOUT MATCHUP RATIOS
(2.1) - Discussed Matchups
(2.2) - Matchup Discussion Schedule
(2.3) - Matchup Rediscussion Schedule
(2.3.1) - How the Rediscussion Schedule Export Thread Creation is Decided
SECTION 3 - MATCHUP SUMMARIES
Index number for each matchup summary is on (2.1) - Discussed Matchups.
SECTION 4 - CONCLUSION
(4.1) - Conclusion by Atomsk
(2.0) - What Matchup Numbers Really Mean
When you look over Dedede's matchups, you may find a couple of things misleading, whether you main Dedede and are looking for information on one or more matchups or if you don't main Dedede (but why not, amirite?) and just want to see what Dedede mains think of the matchup against your character. A common complaint about many people is that a 60:40 matchup is an auto-win/loss. This is definitely not true. A 60:40 matchup means that one character will win MOST of the time over the other with good effort. It's not an easy win by any means and the other character can win the matchup if they are smart and skilled enough.
Nidtendofreak made a good summary of the specific matchup ratios.
(2.1) - Discussed Matchups The difficulty and colors are read like this:
30:70-10:90 (Red) -Very Hard
40:60-35:65 (Orange) -Hard
55:45-45:55 (Yellow)-Even
60:40-65:35 (Green)-Easy
70:30-90:10 (Blue)-Very Easy
To find a particular section, use ctrl+f (apple+f for Mac users) on your keyboard to find the section number in parenthesis (for faster results, include the parenthesis).
(2.3) - Matchup Rediscussion Schedule
USE THE EXPORT THREADS
(2.3.1) - How the Rediscussion Schedule Export Thread Creation is Decided
The formula I use for deciding who should be rediscussed when get their own thread for discussion of the matchup is:
(x^2)*p=T
...where x is the number of people who requested the matchup, p is the tournament placings of that character (according to Ankoku's list) and T is the total, which each character is then organized by.
As you read these matchup summaries, you may notice several characteristics that characters with an advantage against King Dedede have. These vary from character to character, but the three biggest trends are:
Cannot be chaingrabbed
Can outcamp Dedede
Can get a somewhat significant amount of free, uninterrupted damage on Dedede (via chaingrabs, locks, etc.)
The Ice Climbers share all three of these traits, hence they are Dedede's worst matchup. They take each of these characteristics and increase them to the max. Desynching allows for Ice Shot tricks that are downright ridiculous and can easily negate Waddle Dees. Blizzard racks up a good deal of damage, is a good setup for other moves, and goes past Waddle Dees. Their chaingrabs are more broken than yours by a large margin, to the point where getting grabbed almost always means losing a stock. And, as long as Nana is alive, they can't be grabbed at all. Ice Climbers **** Dedede right through his pants. No matchup in Brawl is impossible, but this is very close.
The first thing you need to realize to succeed in this matchup is that you absolutely cannot under any circumstance get grabbed. This means you need to space like crazy. Space like your life depends on it because it does. Ftilt, bair, dtilt, jab...pull out every trick in the book to stay out of their grab range. Stay in the air as much as you can and use bair, dair, and inhale to keep yourself from getting destroyed when you do have to land. Inhale in particular is good in this match when you're close to them since it's good at seperating them, which I'll talk more about below. Don't try to avoid them by ledgecamping though. They'll just desynch and use an Ice Block Lock to prevent you from getting back up.
The next important thing to realize in this matchup is that when there's only one Ice Climber, it's not even close to as bad as two. Killing Nana will completely turn the match around, so if you have an opportunity to kill her, take it. That said, focusing on her exclusively is too obvious and many good IC mains will realize what you're doing and punish you for it. Instead, just wait for an opportunity to pop up and then kill Nana. Of course, if you have a better opportunity to kill Popo, this is the better option.
Another thing to point out in this matchup is that Ice Climbers have a significantly worse air game than yours. ICs are more horizontally-oriented characters than vertically-oriented, as evidenced by their grab game, projectiles, sideB, etc. By comparison, their aerials are very bad and they really have nothing to do in the air other than Ice Shot and Blizzard. They also don't have great defense above them since your dair outranges their usmash (and I believe utilt) and they just generally have less priority than you. This works out well for you in the long run since you're going to spend most of your time in the air trying not to get grabbed anyway. It also means that if you can get ICs off the stage you will get a significant advantage since their recovery is only about average. Finally, you're going to need to approach in this matchup. The best way to do this is to use bair, dair, or Inhale. I like dair best in this scenario since it splits them up.
Ice Climbers have the advantage [...] Simply put, it's Ice Climbers. All IC's have to do is wait around to get 1 grab and it's over. Dedede has to play a really tight spacing game while being smarter then the opponent to win this one. IC's big advantage over a lot of characters is being able to desync so quickly into a blizzard (typically a guaranteed grab if any character is caught in it).
Abusing Dedede's excellent vertical range while punishing IC's lack of it (besides the belay, where Nana is an invincible hitbox XD) is key here. Dair splits them up nicely, allowing you to go for a fair or bair afterwards on defenseless nana.
If ic know what to do. DDD cant land a single grab which is his best way to seperate (Ic can predict the grab coming and jab immidiately). Ummm. You can possible gimp them, but ic can mix their recovery and go low or wait till after DDDs bair comes out. Throwing waddle Ds out is good because they cant bait ice block chaser on you for a free grab. Dont spam ftilt because we can run and shield through it.
What makes this match up difficult for DDD is he cant approach ic at all and ic have the option of picking apart DDD little by little. Its almost like a harder version of olimar vs ic. You use desynches to approach DDD because he cant approach period except when ic are in a bad situation. You use desynches to force ddd to do stuff. Ice blocks to jump in the air or blizzard to jump in the air. If they get hit by either ic can run into and grab.
Atomsk use to do spaced fsmashes which work really well, but if ic just walk in and shield u can react better to it. Most ic dash in and shield, but the shield always comes out a little later because of the dash animation being slightly laggy.
It is an unwinnable match up if ic use desynching effectively and dont mess up cging. And if DDD is off stage recovering without enough jumps expect to eat a TON of damage recovering. You up b high we can up b DDDs recovery or uair. go below the stage we can grab DDD b4 they grab the ledge for a free ledge spike.
Sucking is really good if you use it in a smart manner. If you suck and immediately spit DDD is invinicble so he cant get punish. I guess u can shield if nana gets sucked and react? but it never comes through my mind to do that.
Ic just limit DDDs options waay too much (entire grab game).
Bair approach, once in, dair camp, footstool and dairs, one lands on sheilds insta-pokes (two shields and a strong rapid hit attack greatly deminishes the shields further) IF they somehow didn't poke, u can jump again/footstool away, or dair again, def. poking at least one, seperating them.
Once seperated DDD has some of the best "keep sepereated" game in the game. One being plain grabing each as they try to get near each other, bair spamming, or charging things like dsmash.
Also if u think they continue to hold shield and are afraid of them uaring out of shield between dairs u get free mixup with inhale, if u instantly spit it out it's gona hit the one u didn't inhale.
HOPEFULLY u inhalled popo so at worst the quick punishment is a jab or something.
Bairs=easier gimping capabilities than mk's dair, as it flat out can beat IC's side b, sending them far back off, and lower at low %. also charge sidesmash is nice here, the range and power on that makes it easier to hit, something mk's fsmash lacks (i often take the side b when i try to time mk's fsmash to hit them off)
and if u grab one (right next to the other) i like uthrow instead of foward
its fast enough u can throw one up, it pushes the other back, u grab the other, throw up into the other, air chase original, repeat (also easy seperation, but don't look for grabs its risky as balls)
There's also the factor (don't know if u count in in the meta gameness of the matchup) that ddd is harder to inf. and takes longer to kill=more chances of messing up.
Only "gay" thing about the matchup is the edgeguards to be honest.
No IC's do it vs ddd cuz they're dumb and i may be regreting saying this.
All they gotta do from a grab is take to the edge into a fair spike, and grab ledge, wait for up b as nana still has ledge, get up, grab it, new grab inf. or fair spike again (keep in mind ddd doesn't get any jumps back in this process)
but yea, thats only one real advantage IC's have in the matchup that I see being a problem. And THAT assumes the DDD got grabbed to begin with.
Then if DDD does get a lead I feel he's harder to approach while platform camping than MK, but that's just me and my experiences.
Good Stages:
Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Norfair, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise
Forget everything you know about what stages are in Dedede's favor. In most of your matchups, you'll want big stages with lots of space to camp and chaingrab. Against ICs you just want to take cover and try as hard as possible not to get grabbed. Due to the nature of Ice Shot, platforms are your best friend in this match since hiding under one can help you avoid it and platform camping can . All the stages listed are good for this reason. Lylat Cruise's tilting is also good for messing with their recovery, which is something you will likely need to do. Rainbow Cruise is particularly good since they can't spend too much time on their chaingrabs without risking suiciding. ICs aren't affected by stage choice a ton, so aside from moving stages and stages with lots of platforms they don't have many other weaknesses.
Bad Stages:
Final Destination, Smashville, Yoshi's Island Brawl
Large stages where they can camp and chaingrab the **** out of you. FD should usually be the stage you ban since it epitomizes what a bad stage is in this matchup.
This matchup is a rough one, but probably the best to know since you’ll most likely be seeing Metaknight more than any of your other counters. There’s not much to say about MK that isn’t really common knowledge...he’s fast, he combos well, he gimps very well, and his Tornado is widely regarded as the gayest move in the game. He can rack up damage on you like nobody’s business, he can’t be chaingrabbed (without tech chasing), and he can land every single hit of the tornado on you if you don’t break out of it or DI (many Metaknights like to start the match this way). Fortunately, it’s not completely hopeless.
Dedede has several moves that can break out of the tornado (see anti-tornado attack list): Dtilt, Dsmash, Dair, Bair, and Inhale (Gordos can also break out of it, but good luck pulling one). Of these, your best option is probably ffBair, with Dair and Dtilt coming in close behind. Dsmash should be used if the MK attempts a tornado at higher percentages since it will probably kill him or at least set him up for a kill. If you’re feeling lucky you can take M2K’s old advice of DIing up and mashing airdodge, but you’ll probably take more damage from trying to do that than from just Bair or Dairing. Or, if the MK doesn’t start the tornado right next to you, you can just shield the whole thing, but most Metaknights are used to shield poking so don’t be surprised if it doesn’t bother them much.
Due to Metaknight’s light weight (and also his great horizontal recovery), it’s best to try to kill him off the top, which is great news since Dedede has perhaps the second best Utilt in the game (behind Snake) and his Usmash is very solid as well, killing almost as early as Utilt but having more range and being able to do it out of a dash. Dsmash sends them up as well, which makes it good for tech chasing, killing, or setting up for a kill, as mentioned above. Another good option for killing is the Dededecide.
“What? Gates, you can’t be serious, Dededecide will rarely work and there’s no effing way I’m going to incorporate it into my gameplan,” you’re saying to yourself right now. But it does work quite well. If you’re off the stage and MK is trying to edgeguard or Wall of Pain you, a Dededecide can be the right move if you’re tied or a stock ahead. If they’re edgeguarding, even threatening an inhale by the ledge can make them back up and give you some space to recover.
Spacing is extremely important in this matchup, so be sure to use that Ftilt. Don’t abuse it though because it’s kind of laggy and if you overuse it MK can just approach you from different angles. In addition to the Dededecides mentioned before, Inhale can also be great for messing with MK’s approaches by pausing them for a sec. You can easily force him to approach through Waddle Dee toss, but you might not even need to since most MKs love approaching anyway. And most importantly in this matchup, STAY ON THE GROUND. As much priority as Bair has, MK’s aerials are way better than yours and Shuttle Loop can be very dangerous.
I have alot of experience with this match up (there are alot of meta knights where I play).
[…]
In this match up, what I find my self doing is alot of ftilt when when I feel like MK is going to dash grab. If MK comes in for a shuffled fair, if the spacing is off I just shield grab into back throw, if the spacing is perfect then I drop shield and dash grab into back throw. Fair is not a good move for Dedede to use in this matchup so i limit its usage. D smash goes through tornado every time, and randomly if I come down with suck on top of tornado, it works.
I love it when MK tornadoes me. Simple tactic people, have your shield full, block the whole thing, then punish...I will never understand why so many people QQ about it. If you feel your shield cant hold out, spot dodge the last bit of nado, I normally do this every time so I have an easier time punishing. If for some reason you cant shield, DI up and smash airdodge you should get out of it then fly over it...just be smart. For the glide attack...just shield grab into back throw.
Clearly, on the stage, Dedede goes even with MK. The kill move and recovery are the problems. The kill move should be (in my opinion) up tilt or d smash. The best way to get either of these moves off is if MK does a SH nair then its a simple kill, otherwise wait for an opening and punish with either move, be sure you know the proper spacing for each of these moves. And just to restate, Dsmash goes throw tornado.
Generally, do not be afraid to use f tilt, d tilt, bair, and suck. Suck up is a great mix up if the MK gets wise to the grab/bair game, or is trying to keep pressure on you, or you feel overwhelmed with momentum.
Recovering against MK can be tricky. NEVER up b above MK, you will get shuttle looped. If you have enough jumps, recover like Snake (jump to the top of the screen and use b-reversals/airdodge to get on the ground), or if you must use up B, use it quickly, and intelligently, but generally up B gets punished.
MK has alot vs Dedede. Nair -> ftilt combos easily and does about 30%. Down air above Dedede is hard to punish especially if they follow it with tornado (I would say try to tilt your shield up or try a retreating back air or just run away if MK is above you).
Spacing is the absolute deciding factor in this match. Good MK's will use alot of attacks that are outside of Dedede's grab range, so make sure to keep mixing up between suck, grab, bair, ftilt, etc. Retreating is absolutely necessary to basically regenerate your shield, because it is clearly a useful tool in this match. Retreating can temporarily trap (a stupid MK) into chasing. Mostly its used to establish control of the pace of the match.
Throwing waddles, to me, should only be intended to establish spacing and put MK at your pace. What I mean is slow him down with waddles, dont expect a hit, use them to space yourself and control the stage (think street fighter).
[…]
Just play smart, there is little room for error, especially when trying to recover.
Meta Knight vs. D3 has to be one of the most awkward matches for D3...because you HAVE TO PLAY DIFFERENT against GOOD MKs....I don't care who you are. DO NOT APPROACH EVER. I'm working on this matchup, and anti MK strategies. Refer to my thread tonight, I am probably going to add some.
But one effectice strategy I've noticed to work wonders, is retreating pivot grabs, retreating side Bs, and spacing that F tilt flawlessly.
Think of it this way...Most Metaknight don't want to dair D3 when he's on the ground too often, because of his up tilt, so expect this situation:
Metaknight is on the ground about 10 ft away from dedede, who is also on the ground...out of f tilt range. In this case..Most D3s would expect MK to approach if nothing is happening. THINK ABOUT HIS OPTIONS...
IF HE TORNADOES FROM THIS DISTANCE...YOU HAVE PLENTY OF TIME TO SPACE/TIME D3S UP TILT
Some Mks...from my experience will do a dash grab...
and more uniquely some MKs will run into a shield/spotdodge
Now what I've been doing lately seems to work...if you run away..and can anticipate when MK begins his dash to you...RUN AND PIVOT GRAB!!!
THINK ABOUT IT - D3s pivot grab is insanely fast, longer then his other grabs, and lets him retreat AND turn around
Lately most of my opponents run right into my hands ---> and I get the Back throw off
if ur having trouble with approaches, IF YOU HAVE THE LEAD
the mk can only do one of 3 or 4 things.
1. Run==>shield grab, hoping to block ur ftilt.
SOLUTION:
Instead of ftilt, read his approach, and simply stay on ur side, then when u think he's gona running shield, u do a dash grab (no shield) and meet him half way. That way your grabbing his approaching shield.
2. Jump in space dairs/fairs
SOLUTION:
for spacy mk's mixup between dash shielding==>grab (if they do recieding fairs), sh bairs or utilts out of shield for spacy dairs, be very patient with this...
like shield 2, even 3 dairs before making a move, if they're too high, try to time a full hop uair or fair after abotu the third or 4th dair, if they land before then, grab/dsmash the landing depending on spacing, only other option is nado which if ur shield is low either roll away or try to utilt it. if ur shield is fine (they did nado before doing 3-4 dairs on ur shield) then just hold shield, try to predict if he's gona stay inside u, OR retreat. if he retreats u can actually time a roll in that direction to move with him, and finish ur roll where he lands, this seems to be the only consistant way to punish retreating nado, if they stayed in ur shield at all, and it avoids the mindgame of -retreat, just kidding hit u while u run-
3. Walk slowly up and space tilts
SOLUTION:
DSMASH-sounds weird but it destroys mk's grounded spacing game once he's passed ur ftilt range. just hold shield accordingly, when he fuks up, give him a swing.
itss sooooo good and soooo big. and hurts, and puts them above u. i <3 dsmash..
4. Dash, jump, nado.
SOLUTION-This one you gota watch out for, as it can shut out like ur other two solutions if u pick wrong. (IE he has a rock that beats ur scissor and lizard, BUT you have this paper) this one will seem the most blatent if u pay attention enough, and aggressive, they will run full speed and jump AT you, not near you. thats ur que to either throw out utilt, try to grab it, OR the safest thing, shield. -----the issue is when they read ur shield, and instead of jump nadoing, they just dash grab ur shield, so watch out for that.
instead of linking specific vids, since i do all these strats often,
i'll link u here instead.
watch the latest vids vs mk to see these strats in action.
I only want to remind everyone, and this is something that should be on the TOP of the first post, Matchups=/=a scientific method to consistantly win. All matchups are is knowing how to find bad habits, and knowing what your characters best punishments are, how to use them, and how to avoid being punished. If i tell you to wait for a mk's 3rd Dair, that's me saying be patient, look at him, and find out what his habits are first before trying to blatently attack him. See if he likes to commit to dairing, or if he's gona throw in a nado. Im telling you what you can do for both options, and how to handle it, it's up to you (the players) to MIX IN the right options given certain circumstances. I cannot tell you do this, this and this, and you WILL beat this character. I can only give you the tools to to use, its up to you to find out how to best use those tools.
I hope my point gets accrossed. While I'm sure my words on MK have helped, they are not the end all be all, as you can see it takes a good deal of prediction, but the rewards are great. Almost makes the matchup seem even.
also at 4:02 i just wana point out when u have a lead like this, or even just 20%, and u knock mk off the level, u should NOT turn the aggresive on, stay away from his ledge, make him come to you at all times, so its a mission+at kill% he'll be really weary not to tornado approach in fear of dying, so that already makes his mixup game easier to read.
Good Stages:
Final Destination, Yoshi’s Island (Brawl), Smashville, Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1
Generally you want large stages where you can distance yourself from MK. Stages with low ceilings are good too since you’ll be KOing him off the top a majority of the time.
Bad Stages:
Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Luigi’s Mansion, Norfair, Rainbow Cruise
Smaller stages that abuse platforms, moving stages…generally anywhere Dedede doesn’t have a lot of room to move around in and stages that really make his speed a disadvantage. Luigi’s Mansion may seem like a reasonable idea due to its size, but in reality the areas on the first floor where you can’t jump up to the second essentially form boxes where MK can trap you and use the Tornado on you multiple times.
The Falco matchup is very difficult. He has a ton of advantages – speed, comboing, outcamping you, being able to chaingrab you while not being chaingrabbed back, and being just heavy enough to not die at percentages below 95%. The only real advantages you have against him are the fact that he is still pretty light, even if he’s no Jigglypuff, and his recovery is easy to gimp.
If Falco grabs you, he’ll chainthrow you up to 6 times from 0% and then finish with either a dair, usmash, smash boost, or fsmash, most likely the first one. His chaingrab stops working on you at about 54% or so according to the Falco boards, but their dthrow is a still a good setup for combos after that, so it’s unlikely they’ll ever stop using it or throw you in a different direction. Because of his chaingrab, spacing is really important in this matchup. Ftilt pokes are essential. Be careful not to get within range of his reflector also, I believe that trips the opponent when it hits and that’ll easily set you up for a smash. Also, be sure not to get too far away from him since he can easily outcamp you.
“What do you mean Falco can outcamp King Dedede? Waddle Dees block the lasers!” you might say. This is true for Falcos who stay grounded while spamming lasers, and Waddle Dees could actually be beneficial in preventing a laser lock, as unlikely as that occurrence may be. However, good Falcos will SHL or SHDL you, and when they do this it is almost guaranteed that at least one of them will hit you. TommyG, a very good and respected Falco player, has said that many Dededes only use their ground game to shield, dodge, and grab and that Falcos should use their lasers, either camping or at close range, to throw them off. What this ultimately means is that you’ll have to do something Dedede doesn’t normally do – Approach.
Approaching Falco with Dedede – or anyone for that matter – is not the easiest thing in the world, but it’s still manageable. Powersheilding the lasers is a good solution but not the best as it’ll wear down your shield and make Falco more able to poke you. Spotdodging and rolling on your way there aren’t bad ideas but they are somewhat preditcable. A good way to approach is through a combination of spotdodging and airdodging through the lasers. Neither of these have much lag so they should be ideal for approaching.
So let’s say you’ve approached Falco. Good job! Now what should you do? If you said “grab him”, that is an acceptable answer. But he can’t be chaingrabbed, so where are you supposed to throw him? Bthrow is probably your best option since it’s your best friend in matchups where you can’t chaingrab your opponent. However, you may also want to think about using uthrow against Falco. You know, uthrow? That move you probably never use? It’s fantastic against fastfallers. After uthrowing you can follow up with utilt, usmash, uair, or just follow where he’s going to land, grab him, and repeat. Uthrow will probably end up being a good setup for you in this matchup since Falco is just barely light enough for you to kill him off the top of the stage at >100% (the exact number is 95% I believe).
But a majority of the time you won’t be killing him off the top but instead gimping him off the side. Falco’s recovery isn’t terrible (though it could really only be worse if it were a tether recovery), but if he’s below an angle of about 30 degrees below the horizontal, he’s basically dead. Almost all Falcos will use their sideB to recover if they’re within sweetspot range of the ledge. If they can sideB back onto the stage, your only real option is to spotdodge, predict where they’re going to land (the easy part) and try getting them off again at a lower angle or just generally punish them. A great way to punish their sideB at high percents is by killing them with an utilt, which outprioritizes it. If they’re far enough out and down, though, you should definitely try and gimp them. Bair and nair both outprioritize Falco’s sideB. After they get hit by one of those, Falco will most likely be forced to use his upB. I’m not going to go over how to gimp that. If you can’t figure it out, you might want to think about using a different character.
A few other notes: Don’t stand there with your shield up trying to perfect shield and spotdodge everything like an idiot. You’ll get grabbed and be up to 60% before you can say “Maybe I should’ve airdodged”. Inhale and fhdair can surprise Falco also, so mix that in and use it to your advantage. And finally, stage choice is very important in this matchup. More on that below.
Falco's advantages:
• Superior projectile game
• Faster ground movement
• Ability to CG ;Dedede can't CG him
• Superior stage control with use of projectile
• Quick horizontal recovery to avoid edgeguarding
Dedede's advantages:
• Superior grab range
• High capacity for early kills
• Better poking game (F-tilt)
• Heavy weight
DISCLAIMER: The above video is old and will be updated with a new one ASAP. It's from 6/30, before i got really good XD
As far as fighting one goes, patience is key, and when you strike you have to get as much out of it as you can. In my time playing falcos i've realized that there are obvious trends in the way they return to the stage and in the way they try to approach/kill. I find that whenever i fight the higher level falcos in my area that these trends don't exist, though when i say "higher level falcos" i mean people like sethlon, the second best falco in the nation, so you can expect these out of average people most of the time.
First, we'll start off with recovery trends and how to punish them. It's a well known fact that NO falco ever wants to use his up-b to recover against someone who can move around in the air like D3 does, so you'll see most falcos using side-b to recover.(Also referred to as the Phantasm) If you'll take a look at the video referrence posted above you'll notice how this move can be quick and annoying to try to edgeguard at 0:37. The great thing about this is, most falcos try to ram the phantasm right into you, so it tends to be really predictable and easy to punish if you use the right techniques. I've found that one of the best ways to edgeguard a falco isn't to wildly fling yourself into to fray, but to stay planted, control your ground and use your range. If you'll view the vid again you can see at 0:57 how this concept is slightly shown. Another great stage guard is throwing a waddle dee into their phantasm as they do it towards you. If they're anywhere under 115% then it'll be a free grab for you because they pop up right in front of you after the hit. (yes waddles do break phantasm) That's just my opinion on edgeguarding, not saying you shuold do that ever time, but it does work. You can see more traditional D3 edgeguarding at 1:25 (<3 Aero)
Now secondly, we'll talk about how to deal with falco's approach/camp game. Ok, this is the hard part, IMO this is what makes the matchup so hard, his **** lasers. In my time playing spammy falcos i've actually developed a technique for approaching at a decent speed safely, and it's called the "Fogo walk" (trademarked ) which is basically a mix up powershielding and approaching that looks pretty impressive. I'll be debuting that on a grand scale with the coming of my combo video "Feel the magic" (Shameless plug) which you should all check out. Never fear though, there are ways around his lasers without powershielding the majority of them. You can easily spot dodge then jump and airdodge threw some lasers on your way towards falco with no landing lag as displayed in the video at 1:50. At the time this was saved i was just thinking of that approach, but now i have it down as you'll see in upcoming vids, and i promise that it works. (if you dont screw up like i did there lol)
EDIT: Bthrow is your best friend! Not uthrow lol
Basically if you play smart and land utilts this is all you'll need to beat the average falco player, good luck guys!
Good Stages:
Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Pokémon Stadium 1, Luigi’s Mansion
Stages with weird ledges to gimp his recovery further, and areas where you can avoid Falco’s laser camping (the Halberd platform’s indentation, the Mansion’s pillars) are what you want to look for in a counterpick. Lylat Cruise is particularly notable since when Falco is on one of the platforms he’ll be in utilt range.
Bad Stages:
Final Destination, Smashville, Pirate Ship, Jungle Japes
Large stages where Falco can out-camp you. At the same time though, you don’t want to choose a stage that’s too small or else you’re more likely to get grabbed. It’s unlikely that they’d pick a walk-off stage, but those would also be bad in this matchup since gimping Falco’s recovery is where you’ll get most of your kills from.
Ahh, my favorite MU as pikachu is against DDD. I have a lot of EXP in this matchup thanks to Seibrik, so i will be able to help a lot.
Pika's Advantages
DDD is such a big target for pikachu, and is very easy to hit with multi-hit attacks like bair and D-smash. Pikachu's speed overwhelms DDD, and the only things to really stop it are some well placed Waddles/gordo or very well timed F-tilts. Pikachu's CG on DDD lasts until about 60%, which can be very irritating to the DDD. Also, if CGing to the edge, pikachu can grab attack when they are right next to the edge and both characters will fall off, and pikachu will be able to nair. Video example here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfJR1b7Mi1w (Watch at 0:27, its basically what happens, except i was close enough to the ledge so i didn't fall off and nair)
Since DDD is huge, it is really hard to DI out of thunder if you are stuck smack-dab in the middle of it, so watch out for U-throws, U-tilts, and U-smashes. Pikachu can outcamp DDD with T-jolts and QACing above and around him. Pikachu's T-jolts also hug the ledge, so it is not advised to try to ledgebait him to a DDD suck up.
Approaching pikachu from the top is VERY ill-advised, for pikachu has thunder and u-air (Pikachu's best juggling attack), although DDDs dair breaks through it Since DDD is such a big target, DI-ing out if Pikas D-smash is a bit more difficult, for you may be sucked in. Tap DIing up is the most efficient way, but watch out, for the last hit still might get you and send you flying.
Pika's Disadvantage
DDDs bair breaks through Skull bash (pikas side-b) which can make it somewhat irritating to recover, but it is only a minor nuisance. The multiple jumps of DDD make it irritating for pikachu to approach DDD in the air or off of the cliff, for you can just jump and fair around 4 times. Quick attack can be grabbed by DDD with extremely good timing. Pikachu will die at around 85 from a u-tilt, and around 40-50 from a sweetspot forward smash. Pikachu's tech-roll doesn't move him very much, so pikachu is quite tech-chasable if you are good at it.
This match up is hard, but definitely winnable. It's been said before, but D3 must approach, there simply is no another option. Olimar simply outcamps D3, and if you try to fight fire with fire, you will lose. However, approaching can be a problem since all Olimar has to do is run around throwing pikmin or reverse pivot grab to mess you up. Play smart and poke around with your F tilt, but be cautious as I believe white pikmin rival that range as well, if not beat it. And if you get grabbed at low percentages, expect a fair amount of damage. Seriously, Olimar can combo D3 to hell and back, and most of the time you'll be starting a stock with around 30 - 50 damage if this happens. On the flip side, when you snag a grab, get to tech chasing. It's one of your strongest damage builders in this match up. Use common sense! If you down throw while both of you are near the center of the stage, chances are, they will roll away. If you down throw them towards the ledge, expect a roll back as most players don't want to be put in such a disadvantageous position. And what a horrid position this is for Olimar players! Once Olimar is off the stage, he should lose a stock. That should be your main goal every time. Don't let him come back! Bair all day long! Remember Olimar has a tether recovery, so if your attempting a ledge hog and your invincibility frames have worn off, be aware that this will stage spike. Tech it if your super pro, if not, your gambling a stock. High risk, high reward, how you choose to gimp Olimar is up to you.
All in all, D3 is definitely at a disadvantage. Is it major? Not with a little match up experience.
[...]
But then again, that's the beauty of D3. Even with a good amount of match ups in the opponents favor, they're all winnable. Play smart, and you can go toe to toe with any, and all of them.
I would say this is one of the most annoying matchups for King Dedede. Olimar's got everything to trigger the king's weaknesses: he outcamps you badly with his sideB. His smashes have more range than our grab, and he can combo us like ****.
His number one combo on us at 0-10% is: Down throw > Up smash > Up air. Maybe another up air if you're not prepared. Pretty much Olimar's game is camping with sideB, then grabbing or smashing when close.
Best way to finish that match early is to gimp with back air, but watch him for when he does a whistle or a airdodge, then back air. Mindgaming with a fastfalled forward air while offstage works wonders too.
Three things we should use most in this matchup: Inhale, Spotdodge and Up throw.
Preferably fastfalling inhale on him because it screws with his ground game and it sends him in the air, and that's the purpose to keep up throwing him too. KEEP HIM OFF THE GROUND as much as you can. Play as smart as you can to juggle him so he doesn't continue with his smashes and grab. And whenever he's still on the ground, always spotdodge instead of shielding. Spotdodgegrabbing because his grab range is more than ours and has less lag. Then up throw him and try to keep hm up there.
Really good counterpicks for Olimar are Halberd and Frigate.
Halberd's platform guards you when you up throw him, up tilt kills Olimar early at 75-80% and I would assume he's easily gimpable instead of neutrals. Frigate has no ledge on the first transformation so that'll be gamebreaking for us.
The two neutrals that you should try to not bring Olimar to: Yoshi's Island and Final Destination. Just believe me there, no need to explain.
Otherwise, you just have to play smart with spotdodging, no shieldgrabbing unless if you need to stop your running momentum, but still spotdodgegrab.
Matchup I think is 60:40 Olimar -_-.
Ah, a common misconception [is that pikmin colors don't matter]. It does matter. The pikmin color matters in every situation you're in- that is if the Olimar player knows what he's doing and knows how to use each pikmin as efficiently and effectively as possible. If you're looking to be fairly advanced in fighting against Olimar, you need to look at which pikmin in the line is where and understand that the line and your movements will sway an Olimar players future decisions. If you don't, you're hurting yourself. You could save yourself matches by knowing which pikmin in Olimar's pikmin repitoire do what.
-Purples will knock you backwards, (6% damage) letting us throw more pikmin. If you're close enough, we may go for the grab- similar to Diddy following up his peanut gun in a way. Many opponents don't see the purple and so we get a free 6%, time to pluck any pikmin we need, gain stage positioning, and maybe follow up on the set knockback that you recieve from the purple pikmin.
-Whites arc considerably lower, but fly faster and farther, making them considerably easier to aim and land for the Oli user. They should be giving you, the DDD player, much more of an incentive to attack them because of how much damage they rack. (up to 60% undiminished, or 6% per latch hit) With that in mind, we'll be looking for a grab more often after throwing a white. You should be able to recognize this.
-Yellows arc higher and fly a shorter distance, making them harder to land. Something I personally like to do is jump higher when I'm about to throw a yellow. This will help me get some extra distance on the throw. If the Olimar player isn't very advanced and just throws the yellow normally, a missed yellow may give you a little more breathing room. And maybe just enough time to SHnair to kill a pikmin that's on you? You've still got to fear getting punished though.
-Blue and Reds are normal. They fly the same distance as each other and give the same damage as yellows per latch hit. There aren't any significant advantages/disadvantages reds/blues have when camping.
I've got a guide to camping with Olimar. Check it out if you're interested.
This matchup is annoying for the king and I have experience on both sides, at least enough to help anyone.
Pros: You **** him offstage. You're heavy, and difficult to KO for diddy. You have far better range. Your grabs are very valuable and can stop him in his tracks. You're utilt kills him at 100ish, Fsmash at ridiculously dumb percents. Inhale is good but situational.
Cons: He's agile, and difficult to hit. You get ***** onstage by bananas. You cannot simply hop over everything, because the peanut gun and fair will take care of that. Hard to land the KO finisher. No glide toss (massive disadvantage.) Fat, easily combo'd. Damage racks up FAST on you. You get pressured like hell and it can get to your head.
His recovery: This is where d3 has the biggest advantage, d3 ***** diddy's up b with any aerial. If you can predict when he's going to side B to recover, then you can aerial it (he can use his side b again, so keep hitting him until he is forced to use his up b.) Your up b meteor spike ***** his rocket barrels, you spike him, and the barrels hit you and keep you to survive. Keep this in mind, because the meteor spike can come in handy if you're both recovering offstage.
Onstage: Onstage, I'm sorry but you're going to be playing very carefully and slow. Diddy ***** d3 alot because the bananas are so difficult for d3 to get around since he's fat as hell and he doesn't have a glide toss (I don't think he does, even if he does its garbage). Chaingrab him. Without the chaingrab, this matchup would be ridiculously difficult but you can even it out with this simple thing. Chaingrab him offstage at any opportunity you possibly have. Suppose there is a banana in the way of your chaingrab, just throw him backwards and pick it up.
If he dash attacks into your shield, his dash attack is lagless so he can even grab you or upsmash you if you dare to shield grab him. So shield grab very carefully after the last kick of his dash attack. Now, you will be dealing with his glide tossing alot, he will follow a glide toss with grabs, dash attacks most commonly, Fsmashes, dsmash, and anything else really. If you shield the glide tossed banana roll backwards, since you will be pressured like hell he will probably grab you if you're shielding.
Diddy cannot kill you from afar, and if he wants to camp you with his peanut gun (which is viable because you can't approach him very easily) then camp waddle dees and airdodge pick up the peanuts. Instead of picking the bananas up with your dash attack or pressing A while walking, full hop dair picks them up right off the ground safely without the expense of being punished by tripping. Ftilt is very good onstage because of its range especially if he doesn't have a banana in his hand. You have to grab him alot if he's in his crazy naner mode to get him away so you can pick up the bananas. Inhale can stop him from following up a far away glide toss and can dispose of some bananas far away but if you use it wrong, you will be severely punished. When he's on the ledge, use the full hop dair just a bit more to stop him from getting back up.
Offstage: **** his recovery, bair is the best choice I think because of its long-lasting hitbox (kindof) and if he tries to side B the weaker hit may hit him. He can get back on the stage from even a full WoP so if he's getting back to the ledge and aiming his rocket barrels towards it, use an nair to interupt it so he falls down and then edgehog again.
DI'ing his fsmash: You will most likely get fsmashed from a successfully landed glide toss from up close so keep it in mind that if you are very observant you can DI it. You hold towards him you're caught in it close to his body, and if you're far away, DI up and away. This makes it not able to kill you if successfully DI'd and negates some of the damage.
Good stages: Lylat cruise is good because the stage can gimp his recovery alone by it moving haha. Rainbow cruise (don't need to explain this, just watch out for the spikes), smashville is okay because it's hard for him to combo you into oblivion, and he has less room to camp and space himself away from you. Yoshi's island is great, that platform interfers with his bananas.
Bad stages: Fd, he combos you like crazy on here and it's difficult to get in close. Battlefield is okay, but it can be harder to avoid the bananas.
Learn to z-grab / running (release stick) z-grab the nanas and airdodge with the initial frames to pick then up when you land. Throw them off the stage or smash upthrow if you're to far awayfrom the edge. Throwing them at him normally isn't a good choice unless you're setting up a trap. When he has a nana your options are very limited. Don't ftilt/dtilt unless its gaurenteed to hit. Stay in the air (with your back towards him) when he has a nana. Zgrab when he throws it at you, bair when he tries to challenge you with his aerials. Waddle dees/doos can get punished so don't spam them unless its safe. Just keep your cool, he doesn't build damage up as fast as you may think, but tripping all the time is demoralising. He has mad shield pressure and fsmash has pretty good shield breaking potential so watch out. Planking is viable (to restore your shield and such). His best option is arching the peanuts but that doesn't work if you time you drops/ledgegrabs right. He won't chase you offstage most of the time but watch out for a suprise fair it will kill early near the side blastlines (and nothing pisses me off more than dying at mid/low percentages against a diddy). The bananas limit your options so bad, I've played matches where 90% of my moves where bair/dthrow/grab. His killing options are the most telegraphed in the game so there's no excuse not to have perfect DI. Just remember that the nanas go through pretty much everything so make every move count.
Okay, so, I found something groundbreaking against diddy kong. Run up and full hop dair bannans that are on the ground. It's broken because you cover your *** with your hammer, you pick up the bannana, you move while your doing it, and it auto cancels
The matchup between Dedede and Snake is a very interesting one. Snake is faster than Dedede; can camp better through grenades and C4; utilizes explosives to smack Dedede around all over the stage; spikes Dedede off the stage with fair, racks up lots of damage with nair and dair; edgeguards well with a combination of mortars, C4, mines, and, surprisingly, his bair; and kills Dedede at a lower percentage than other characters due to his extremely strong ftilt, utilt, uair, fsmash, and even his jab. Yet at the same time, Dedede is was considered by many to be Snake’s worst matchup.
Snake has more tricks up his sleeve, sure, and he’ll most likely outcamp you since his Waddle Dees can’t always hold their own against grenades. But once you grab him, you have a very significant advantage. Not only can Snake be chaingrabbed to the edge of the stage, but once you throw him off you can hit him with a dtilt and gimp him very easily. Gimping Snake is an interesting ordeal. With most characters the phrase “gimp” is synonymous with “WoP”. However, due to the nature of Snake’s cypher (better vertical recovery than your upB, which translates to horizontal recovery thanks to DI), it is better, in my opinion, to stake spike him. Snake is particularly vulnerable to stage spiking due to the fact that his upB goes straight up first and then slowly gains horizontal momentum. This means that many times, even if Snake has not been stage spiked but is still under the stage and not in range of the ledge, Snake will cypher under the stage until he lets go and falls to his death (or C4s himself, in which case he’ll be in a slightly better position to recover, but ultimately still vulnerable). The best way to stage spike Snake is The King’s bair, though his fair works well to. Inhaling Snake and spitting him out under the ledge is a fun alternative to Dededecide and works just as well as fair, but setting it up can be difficult due to Snake’s relative resistance to Inhale (his bair outranges it and he can feed you grenades instead).
Edgeguarding Snake in general is an important thing to learn since you’ll probably spend a decent portion of the match doing it. If he ciphers close enough to the stage, grab him out of it, don't attack or throw, and wait for him to release on his own. He’ll have to C4 himself, taking an extra 15% damage, and try to get back to the stage again, where you’ll be waiting with bairs, fairs, or an fsmash. I know I said stage spiking was probably a better option than WoP earlier, but on several stages that’s not an option, so if you think you can, Wall away. Also, when he uses C4 to recover, FOOTSTOOL HIM. You'll be glad you did.
Inversely, Dedede needs to be careful when recovering against Snake as well. Nair and bair go through mortars, so they aren’t a terribly big issue unless the Snake really starts spamming them, at which point you’ll have to stop using aerials and use the super armor from Super Dedede Jump. If you do use the upB, don’t be surprised if the Snake player starts smiling as this is very exploitable on the descent. Fair, dair, nair, bair, ftilt, fsmash… these are all things he can do to you while you’re airborne. According to M2K, dair kills Dedede off the ledge at about 100%. Fair kills even lower than that. Be EXTREMELY careful when recovering against Snake.
But before all this edgeguarding business comes into play, you’ll have to face eachother on the stage first. As I mentioned earlier, Snake will probably be outcamping you with his grenades and try to force you to approach. Before that, however, toss a waddle dee at him to provide you some cover against low grenades and mines. The optimal angle of attack for approaching Snake is an interesting debate. Dashing straight on opens you up to grenades, ftilts, jabs, mortarslides, and lots of other stuff. On the other hand, approaching from the air opens you up to grenade bounces, aerials, mortars, and his insane utilt (you should see the horizontal range on it, it’s ridiculous). Ultimately you have to make the call here on what is best for you to do. If he seems to be wanting to continue to spam grenades, follow your Waddle Dees over there and RAR a bair when you’re close enough. If you start to approach and he begins a mortarslide, shieldgrab him and either chaingrab (provided the mortar isn’t heading towards you or didn’t go off for some reason) or fthrow/bthrow (the more likely choice). Of course, the BEST way to approach Snake is from below. Your utilt will probably not be what kills him in this match so feel free to set him up in the air and follow up with whatever you can throw at him. Uair, another utilt, you name it.
About Snakes explosives. Mines aren’t that big a deal since, as mentioned before, Waddle Dees can trip them easily. C4 is more dangerous and you’ll most likely be forced to avoid it. However, most Snakes will not leave their C4 in one place for too long (it explodes after 25 seconds anyway), and when you get them off the stage the first thing they do after cypher is detonate their C4 to try recovering back that way. Nikita is pretty easy to avoid if you’re not careless and not much else about it is worth mentioning. Snake’s most notable explosives are his grenades. A good Snake player can and will do tons of different things about them. Not just simple stuff like camping and bouncing, but advanced things like dropping a grenade in front of you, rolling behind you, cracking your neck a few times, and then throwing you into it as it explodes. Hell, I’m surprised nobody’s written a full guide about grenades yet Actually, I think someone has written a full guide about grenades. It’s also worth mentioning that many Snakes will mash B during the chaingrab since there is a very, very small window of opportunity (like 1 frame) for them to pull a grenade and stop your CG, but this is unlikely to happen and if you’re chaingrabbing properly it won’t matter much anyway.
One final note about grabs. Not Dedede's, Snake's. Snake has really good throws and can boost grab King Dedede which adds a good deal of range to it. His fthrow and bthrow both send Dedede pretty far and they're often what he'll get you offstage with, in which case you'll have to refer to the section about the offstage game above. The real threat, however, is Snake's dthrow. His dthrow deals 12% and he can use it to techchase which can be a brutal way to rack up damage. Generaly you need to be unpredictable with how you get up after it, but realistically that might not always be the best case. Fortunately, Dedede's forward roll can get him far enough away from Snake that a regrab is not guaranteed and you also have just enough time to dash away from him. Snake's dthrow can also lead to a ledge infinite of sorts. However, it can easily be escaped by mashing airdodge/nair.
Ah Snake, you lovable old card, you. You're success with Snake will invariable differ based on the skill of the person controlling Snake. Especially when it comes to his recovery. First up you should realize, that zhain grabbing Snake is a bit more difficult as if you attempt your normal Chain grab he will grenade out on the second hit. This makes it harder to get to the "CG to Edgeguard" phase that Dedede most excels at. If I'm not mistaken though, a shield canceled chain grab can actually outspeed the grenades. Any chance to Dthrow Snake off the edge should always be taken. The position it ptus him in is highly unfavorable. If he attempts to Cypher, just grab him again, forcing a C4 recovery which is free damage for you. If he double jumps back to go for a high cypher, you can often Fsmash him right at the height of his double Jump. If you CGed to the edge, this is actually a kill from 0-death. amazingly enough (providing you sweet spot the Fsmash).
Waddle Dees can help quell those grenade camping snakes by smacking into them in mid air. Dedede needs help in this department, his large hit box is vary susceptible to grenades. Mortar Sliding is easily dealt with. Feel free to grab Snake out of it if he tries. Go ahead, it's fun. Suck Up will also work. Speaking of Suck Up....Feel Free to Suck Up and Spit Snake out under the stage. Often, he will -have- to C4 back to recover and you're UpB should allow you ample time to get back as well.
The downside in this matchup is Snake is one of the few characters with enough power to kill Dedede's lardy body at normal percentages. His Ftilt is godly and clashes with your own. It also works well for spacing you back out of grab range. Snake's utilt isn't as effective against D3 as he might like, but he can still Ftilt you off the side and deliver a devastating bair kill. Be wary of this as I believe it outranges DDDcide attempts and Fair.
Speaking of the air, get snake there and keep him there. It will take a while to kill with Utilt, but because of this, you shouldn't be afraid to use it as a damage dealer, you should primarily be using your edguarding for the kill anyway, so try and freshen up Bair when you can.
Overall, I put this matchup at about 55/45 for Dedede. I think he can handle Snake quite well so long as he plays smart, but it will be a much more difficult battle and could go either way if the DDD is sloppy.
Sorry if this may be off topic, but think of it as a future discussion.
Lain finally posted in the RealdddBR asking this question
"What do I do about Snake just camping? I find it extremely difficult to get around that **** with DDD being so fat and not having the added advantage of someone like MK's agility or the long slide he gets from dash grabbing. What the **** do I do.
Ftilting works sometimes, but that's if they're not REALLY nade camping."
i felt it necassary to bring up here, and show everyone my, or the, answer.
me:
"for camping snakes never run, u run u lose all ur grab range. your standing grab beats his gernade grab, so as long as u walk everywhere, and shield gernades accordingly, if ur not next to him all u have to anticipate is when he will motor slide, which u can grab on reaction. other than that slowly keep stepping foward, step grab when he pulls a nade, or step shield if he doesnt (cuz that means he's gona ftilt instead)
theres only 4 things a snake will ever do to an approaching ddd. Gernade (into grab) spacy ftilts, motor slide, or roll behind u (if u read this its a full stage CG ^_^)
Smaller stages where Snake can't camp, weird ledges, minimal platforms, walls, and moving stages generally aren’t that good for Snake. Pokemon Stadium in particular is great in this matchup due to its odd ledges that Snake can’t cipher around and its walls on the rock and fire portions of the stage.
Bad Stages:
Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Brinstar, Norfair
Stages with lots of platforms, extremely large stages, and basically anywhere he can camp you a lot.
Another stage worth mentioning is Smashville. Though Snake players generally enjoy it for the moving platform since it’s a good place to put explosives and camp, Dedede players also love it because of chaingrabbing tricks associated with it and the fact that there is less room for him to avoid your grabs. Also, both Snake’s and Dedede’s utilts can reach through the platform to kill. This stage doesn’t particularly favor one character over the other, but I still felt it was worth mentioning since you may see it a lot against Snake.
Game & Watch is another fast, light character who can’t be chaingrabbed and can combo Dedede to hell and back. He also has extremely powerful smashes with little lag afterward that can kill you at very low percentages, often less than 100%. He has very good approaches and you really can’t afford to make any mistakes in this matchup. Fortunately, he’s the second lightest character in the game (after Jigglypuff) and very easy to tech chase, so all hope is not lost.
I mentioned the strength of Game & Watches approaches, but unless you play a Game & Watch on a daily basis you’ll probably only see one approach – the bair, aka. The Turtle. The Turtle is comparable to Metaknight’s tornado in the sense that it does multiple hits that are hard to DI out of and can end up doing a lot of damage if you don’t avoid it somehow. It does 5 hits of 3% each, making 15% total. Because of how long it stays out, spot dodging and air dodging are not good options and due to its fairly large hitbox it may not be easy to roll away. The best thing to do is to shield and then punish the lag. Make sure you shield all 5 hits (it helps me to count them out) before attempting a shield grab or other form of punishment.
If you do get hit, Game & Watch will most likely start juggling you. Dtilt, utilt, nair, uair, he has lots of tricks up his sleeve. He’ll probably finish all this off with a fresh smash attack to kill you at about 100%. As far as edgeguarding goes, G&W has many options in the form of dtilt, dsmash, fsmash, dair, usmash, and his dash attack which spikes if you approach the ledge from the bottom. As cliché as it sounds, the best thing to do is not get hit.
The best way to not get hit in this matchup is, you guessed it, spacing. Ftilt is so good that when you start practicing with the matchup you may want to spam it along with Waddle Dee toss to keep him at bay, though if you toss a Waddle Doo you should get rid of it since a bucket filled with eye beams can kill at around 100%. Staying on the ground is a good idea in this matchup since, as mentioned before, it’s better to shield the turtle than airdodge it. Game & Watch can also do a lot of nasty things to you if you’re above him in general. If you do get above him, your best hope is dair, which outprioritizes most things. If he’s above you though, you won’t have much to worry about since his dair is laggy and easy to see coming. As mentioned before, he’s the second lightest character in the game, so utilt should be able to kill him at under 90%.
I mentioned dthrow tech chasing above, but most good Game & Watches will see this coming and avoid it with their upB. For upB-happy Game & Watches, Fogo has devised a good strategy, so if you want to read it you should check out his post which I quoted below since I personally believe regurgitating what is used in quotes is bad writing (but that’s a different story altogether ). Ultimately though, you shouldn’t be dthrowing Game & Watch. Instead you should opt for bthrow -> Waddle Dee or ftilt/bair if you’re close enough. Even if he airdodges it, he’ll end up in a bad position and have to reset his spacing, giving you a window of opportunity.
A few other miscellaneous things: You can techroll out of Game & Watch’s dthrow -> dsmash combo or just avoid it by hitting left or right during the actual throw. If you grab Game & Watch out of his upB, don’t attack, and wait for him to break free, he will fall helpless. Inhale is not a good move to use in this matchup since it doesn’t break The Turtle and it’ll just pull the smash towards you. Many people have made the latter mistake and suffered the consequences. One new piece of information to keep in mind is Game & Watch's newly discovered AT, Bucket Braking. Bucket Braking allows Game & Watch to cancel all of his momentum, horizontal and vertical, when hit far offstage by an attack. Since Dedede's kill moves have enough knockback that they'll most likely die before getting to use this unless they have incredible DI, it doesn't change things that much, but try to keep in mind that it can happen when you're deciding whether to try and land a kill move or to keep racking damage.
You cant tech chase a good game and watch, or at least one that knows what up-b is. Trust me i've played against several of the best G-dubs in the nation and my brother plays a good one. If they do it right there's about 1-3 frames between them getting up and up-b'ing and gw is so weird that you can't even tell he's doing it. Not to mention the begining frames of the up-b are invincibility frames and he can just DI up after the Dthrow and up-b instantly.
But on the bright side, there is a solution for up-b spammy Gdubs! ^_^
I found from my tournament matches against hylian and utd zac, two formidable Gdubs, that you can instantly footstool the up-b and do a Dair when you fly up, i call it the Hylian combo for obvious reasons lol
Also i've found that tech chasing IS NOT the best option against a good GW. If you find yourself landing a grab on a good GW it will most likely be seldom and you need to take advantage of it. I can count on two hands how many times i've landed a grab on Hylian from our whole set, and i'm really good at landing grabs, ask foursaken lol but what i'm saying is that you should Bthrow > jump > waddle throw. If it's fresh then they'll eat 23% and if they airdodge the waddle then the'yll fall into a bad position and you can control the map. You'll note that in the video above the majority of my throws are infact bthrows and for good reason too.
Now for racking up damage i like to use tilts and waddles when i can't get a grab off, but when a doo lands on the screen i quickly get rid of it because a bucket from a doo can kill at around 95-100%
Aside from that i can't think of much besides abusing lag from Dair and bair.
Good Stages:
Final Destination, Smashville, Halberd
Big stages to distance yourself from him and stages with not many platforms. Those are really the only criteria you need to think about. And of course, stay off the platforms or you’ll get nair’d like crazy. Small blast zones are also good ways to limit Bucket Braking, so if you're really worried about that then try taking them to Halberd.
Bad Stages:
Battlefield, Corneria, Rainbow Cruise
Smaller stages and stages with lots of platforms. Game & Watch players like to juggle you on platforms with nair. Corneria is arguably Game & Watch’s best stage. The weird angles on the front and back of the ship make perfect spots for him to pull a dsmash kill and a usmash at the top of the tail can kill at ridiculously low percentages. He can also fill up his bucket with lasers from the Arwings. Most Game & Watches will take you to Rainbow Cruise though, so I’d ban one of those.
1.) Don't underestimate Kirby's swallow. If Kirby swallows DDD, he can auto-release him to footstool and if necessary to d-air spike. Given the scenario that Kirby is at 100% and DDD is at like 20% and you get swallowed, sometimes you just have to take the blow and don't struggle taking you both down. If you do struggle and the Kirby knows what he's doing, you're still dead and he's alive. Seriously; just don't underestimate it. I can't repeat that enough.
2.) Don't keep your shield up too long. If you're approaching with your shield and you don't have any options, roll away. Kirby's b-air is very good at piercing mid-size/low-size shields. A patient Kirby just has to wait a few seconds while a DDD is shielding for him to be able to attack through it.
3.) If you're hawking with DDD in the air while Kirby is on the ground, be careful. Fast falling into b-airs in attempt to catch Kirby off guard will usually result in Kirby shieldgrabbing you. Kirby's grab is deceptively long, just like DDD's, and also very quick. Against defensive shieldgrabbing Kirby's in this situation, the perfect response is to fast fall with swallow. If they're in their shield, you win every time. What this will do is force the Kirby attempt to land behind your swallow (thinking you'll try it again), leave them open for b-airs, or hopefully they'll let you have a safe landing by giving you distance.
4.) Kirby vs DDD is a WOP battle. If one of them attacks, the other person usually has the advantage. The two most common approaches from both sides will be dash-in to shield and spaced aerials (normally b-airs). If DDD gets grabbed, you'll most likely be hit with a f-throw or a d-throw. This is a dangerous area for DDD to be. Remember to always DI away because not DI'ing at all will earn you a b-air or up-air to the face. The key is to remember that you're DDD and you won't die so easily.
5.) Speaking of dying easily, Kirby can kill DDD early if the DDD isn't prepared. Break out of the habit of air dodging toward the ground thinking you'll be fine, because you won't. A good Kirby will have a well-timed f-smash waiting for you. ALWAYS BE READY TO DI. Another common way for DDD to die early is not DI'ing a clean hit from Kirby's b-air. The b-air is extremely strong, fast, and has great knockback. If you play your cards right and always avoid kill moves (b-air, any smash), you should be around 150% before you die.
6.) Be careful when you throw your Waddle Dees. Make sure there is plenty of room between you and Kirby. If Kirby shields it at mid range, he can run out of shield and grab you/reverse b-air you each time.
Zero Suit Samus first made her debut in Metroid: Zero Mission, dressed from neck to toe in slim, fitting light blue suit, armed with only a gun that dispensed paralyzer shots. ZSS has received a few upgrades since then, having excellent combos, a paralyzer, a tether recovery, a Flip Jump for recovery, and excellent speed. Despite being on the lighter side and unable to live as long as Power Suit Samus, she is nonetheless a formidable foe.
For those who aren't familiar with this match up, the first stock between you and our space bounty hunter pal will be played with three items from her power suit; the helmet, the blaster, and I believe a leg/arm piece, all which can be glide tossed for use as an approach, or used defensively to create distance. Whether or not you decide to play these items is up to you, but I personally always throw them offstage. My reasoning for doing so is based on the simple fact that us DeDeDe users do not have a glide toss, and by removing her armor pieces from play take away the initial edge she has on us the first stock. She moves fast enough in my opinion, and having a glide toss to use at her disposal only hurts us.
Thankfully, ZSS doesn't have any sort of guaranteed combo on us during the early percents, but on the flip side we don't have any sort of chain grab on her either. Get to back throwing or down throwing to forward tilting to put on the damage, and don't forget to space her if she's approaching aerially with forward tilts in attempt to keep her at bay. Normally I would say get to tech chasing, but ZSS can just L and down+b out to escape quickly. Even if you keep her outside of your realm of comfort, this doesn't mean that she doesn't have insane combo potential. Her down smash suffers from 0 hit lag. Yeah, I was surprised by the 0 hit lag, too. This means that Zero Suit Samus' down smash imparts no innate disadvantage even when it hits something. Meanwhile, the opponent's frozen in shield for 8 frames. Good luck getting the shield grab when squaring off against this move. Although possible, the timing is super strict. She has the frame advantage on you, so in order to level out the playing field, you need to perfect shield her attack, granting you a +2 frame advantage, enough to snare her in your greedy little hands. Proceed with caution, however, as getting caught in one of her paralyzer shots always ensures another shot, followed up by an attack of her choice. This is where her combo potential comes into play, as one down smash means a three hit string at the minimum, meaning that your opponent can put on the damage very quickly should you choose to play impatiently/carelessly and try to rush down a ZSS user. Find openings in between her walls of attacks and exploit them.
If any of you have played Melee in the past, recall Marth's style of fighting if you will. Do you remember how the tip of his sword was the range you had trouble getting past? ZSS has something similar, utilizing her side B, neutral B, and down smash. Perfect shielding the charged shot is an easy task, but the down smash in some cases will push you back far enough for your opponent to use a retreating side B, keeping you outside of her realm of comfort, making this fight long and tedious if you can't find a way in. Not only that, by ZSS' side B hits twice, once when during the whip portion of the attack, and the other during the materialization of the ball at the end of her whip during the end, so learn to shield both hits before attempting a grab if your brave enough. If the ZSS user is playing campy, go ahead and throw some waddle dees and doss out on the field to absorb some stun for you. This could provide the opening you need, or keep her toes trying to avoid the lasers assuming she doesn't get rid of the Waddle Doo asap. Don't spam your projectile if she attempts to close the gap, I'd say about mid range is when you should stop using your minions, as this will only get you punished. When you get a grab, you should always try to put the ZSS in a bad position if you can't land that up tilt or down smash, and her worst position by far is recovering. Abuse the fact that she has a tether recovery, but don't assume it's always going to be a free gimp. Her Flip Jump has the ability to spike you, so be careful when chasing her off stage! ZSS dies to a fresh up tilt at 101% off the top of Lylat, and the up tilt damage added means you'll see her stock disappear with a total of 114% damage. Here's a random bit of information, side B goes through up tilt. The more you know, right? If your used to setting up your up tilts by air dodging into your opponent and buffering your headbutt, watch out if you come in to high. ZSS' Up+B has the ability to drag you downwards if the tip connects, sending your hurling towards the stage or in some cases used as a surprise spike. Learn the timing in which you hit the ground and tech roll away, you don't want to give her any sort of follow up. You need to also be very careful when having to recover back on to the stage. If the ZSS user makes you use your Up+B, that's a free Up+B hit for them in most cases. Not only that, but up air comes out extremely fast, and in some cases can be used to kill, so try to use your other four jumps in a smart manner so as to not put yourself in this situation. Speaking off lethal percents and odd methods of spiking, ZSS in most cases utilizes most of her kill moves in order to space sometimes, meaning she doesn't have a reliable stock taker. With good DI, it is possible to live well over the 140s and higher. This is one of our strong suits in the match, our weight. She has a real hard time killing us, even if she can combo us to SSB64 and back.
All in all, the victor of this match will be the one who can take advantage of the few openings offered up by both players. Good luck, guys and gals, this match up is tough.
Credit for frame data goes to Adapt for showing me the application of frame advantage, and Ankoku for displaying it's actual use. Credit is also dually deserved to Fogo for reminding me of side B's twin hits, and CO18's clarification of tech chasing.
Hey, we're finally discussing the leader of the Star Fox team, an expert pilot that has saved the galaxy a numerous amount of times! Man, this sure brings back a lot of childhood memories. Although no longer in the safety of his Arwing fighter, Fox is a formidable opponent when it comes to ground combat and aerial combat.
First and foremost, you need to realize that King DeDeDe does not have any kind of chain grab on Fox to my knowledge. You'll have to rely on tech chasing or back throws to put on the damage, but that's not to say you can't use your tilts as well. As always, forward tilt pokes and provides spacing between you and the furry, but don't forget to down tilt if it gets shielded. Seriously, you don't want Fox all up in your grill, but on the flip side you don't want to put too much distance between you and him.
As with most other of our harder match ups, Fox unfortunately does have a solid damage dealer in the early percents. Down air to up tilt, to up tilt, to another up tilt, to more up tilts. It puts on about anywhere from 30% - to 50% depending on how quickly you can SDI up and away from him. Most Fox players are cautious with approaching D3, but smart Fox players will force you to approach, and with good reason. Fox doesn't have very many multiple hitting aerials, which means that you can shield grab any instance of improperly spaced attacks. A word of caution, however, do not live in your shield the entire match. Fox's boost pivot grab travels a long distance, which can also be used right out of a SHDL, and a RAR forward air cross up, which is just a fancy term for landing behind you, can put you in a bad position spacing wise. Shielding in unnecessary situations means a free grab for Fox, as well as forfeiting stage control.
In most cases, you wont be getting gimped if sent off stage, unless it's by that rare shine spike, but don't assume coming back to the stage after he knocks you away every time is going to be easy. Fox's forward air is beastly. If all hits connect, your looking at about 20+ damage. Since Fox's forward air sends him upwards, you want to be SDIng downwards and away. You can challenge Fox's aerials with your own, but make sure it's with something quick, like the back air, as you want a move that either beats Fox's flat out, which back air does, or just beats his to the punch. Speaking of back airs, Fox's back air comes out fast, and given the proper set up, can kill you, so recover carefully. Be careful if your looking to land directly back on stage though, Fox's up smash is still, in my opinion, the best in the game. It was in Melee and it is in Brawl. Really though, it kills after about 110%. I can count only a handful of times that I've been able to DI back from one of those kicks, and I have to say that it was pure luck. I mean, the move was probably decayed, I can't remember. The point is, do not get hit by this attack, avoid it at all costs. It's knock back is so immense that even if you shield it, it sends you far away enough that you can't shield grab it. It's super powerful, but your up tilt kills just as early as his does. Fox is the 7th lightest character in the game, a fresh up tilt kills in the 90's, (before 105% if I remember correctly).
Lets assume your playing a Fox who wont approach. This is where the match up becomes really difficult in my opinion. Fox's blaster racks up damage quickly, and forces you to come at him. A waddle dee or doo prevents spam to an extent, but SHDL will normally hit you and refresh Fox's attacks. It's kind of a double edged sword, so your going to want to get Fox off stage as quickly as possible. If you can ever put Fox in a position where he is below the ledge, that should be a loss of a stock for him. Back air wrecks him off stage, so gimp him any chance you get. Here's a random bit of information, up tilt beats out Fox's side B if you can't put him in a bad position. Just wait until you hear it activating, and boom, Fox is sent flying. Good Fox players can alter the distance of their side B, making intercepting it with the up tilt hard. It is possible for it to travel a shorter distance than normal, so try and analyze how your opponent is getting back to the stage before trying to break his illusion. Don't become predictable or start spamming up tilt, as Fox's recovery can be tricky to attack through. Fast reflexes and anticipating where your opponent is going to recover in advance is key if you want to abuse his horizontal recovery.
In the final analysis, both characters have plenty going for one another, and the smarter, more patient player will usually win in the end. Try not to get camped, abuse the life out of Fox's predictable recoveries, and don't get hit. Good luck.
Wario is a very unusual character addition to the Brawl line up, combining a plethora of contradictions. He is a heavy weight, yet very mobile in the air, "possessing the third-fastest lateral air movement (behind Yoshi and Jigglypuff) with a solid set of aerials to go with it." Not only that, but this character has odd lag patterns; most of his attacks either have start up lag, the forward tilt for example, or ending lag, the back air. This character is the epitome of hit and run, being able to weave in and out fast enough through the air to poke and prod as he pleases, making match up unfamiliarity a burden on he who is not prepared. First, lets look at the advantages and disadvantages at both ends of the spectrum.
Wario's Main Advantages
Insane Aerial Mobility - This makes grabbing, one of King DeDeDe's best attributes, almost useless, if not incredibly hard to land. Not only that, but attempting to rush down a Wario who is air camping is incredibly hard. Don't ever take a Wario to a stage where he can just run away the whole match, DeDeDe likes small, congested stages in this fight.
Heavy Weight - This is mostly overshadowed by the fact that we have grab releases that set up for the kill, but that's easier said then done. If you can't manage to land the grab, Wario has the potential to live well into the 100% percentile, dying at around 104% to a fresh up tilt. Lethal percentages are subject to change as I believe Wario has an advanced technique called Bike Braking, which is similar to Game and Watch's Bucket Braking. For those of you who are uninformed as to what purpose this serves, it has the ability to halt aerial momentum, allowing Wario to live even longer then he should, only if sent out horizontally, not vertically. Regardless, this can drag out matches until the last remaining seconds.
Shield Pressure Ability - Properly spaced down aerials eat DeDeDe's enormous shield alive. They also have the ability to avoid shield grabs which is super annoying as our character loves it when we press the Z button.
Plethora of Kill Moves - Forward Smash, up air, smart fart, full waft, foward tilt... Wario is certainly not lacking in this department. If DeDeDe is ever put into a position where he must use his Up B, it's free damage for Wario, if not a kill.
Master of Punishment - Do you shield more than usual? Do you like spot dodging a lot? Wario has answers to all of these mistakes, being able to bite through shields, and spot dodges. From what I understand, each time Wario hits you against the floor of the stage, it counts as one of the nine attacks needed to refresh his arsenal. You'll need to be able to fix bad habits mid round if you hope to come out the victor of this match.
King DeDeDe's Main Advantages
Grab Release Shenanigan's - As with most other characters in the game, we also have the ability to kill Wario from a grab release. To my knowledge, you have two viable kill options from a jump break, the up tilt and up smash. Jump breaks only occur if Wario mashes the jump button from a grab, you dash grab him and it connects, or his feet are not touching the ground, i.e. Wario is hanging over the ledge. Bike Braking stops more so his horizontal momentum then anything, so any percentage after 110% should mean death for the anti-mario.
Aerial Dominance - A properly spaced back air will stuff all of Wario's aerial attacks. Rarely will you they clank, and even more so will you lose in this fight.
Gimpability - If you manage to knock Wario off of his bike, he's as good as dead since the Up B isn't that great. A smart fart or full waft will save him, but if that options unavailable, that's the lose of a stock for him.
Weight - DeDeDe will win in a war of attrition. We start dying in the 115%-120% to fresh forward smashes near the ledge and moderately high in the sky to up airs. With good DI, it's possible to live well into the 140s.
Ground Dominance - Forward tilt is a great spacing tool, along with down tilt, and since a grab puts Wario in a horrible position as well as in kill set ups, don't expect to see him grounded much. You more so have to worry about the aerial aspect of this match. Beware for air dodge to grab, bite, etc. Wario players are constantly invulnerable to damage and attacks if they hit that L/R button at the right time.
In the final analysis, this match up consists heavily on the stage being played on. On Norfair, a campy Wario will win. On FD, this match is in our favor. I don't know how to number this match up, it's weird.
All you need to do is get the fat fatty behind the short fatty and have the fat fatty grab him into a sit-off. The grab release the short fatty into a DIABETIC HEADBUTT! =3
Observations drawn from personal experience, on a few of the things that've been discussed so far:
Chaingrabbing Marth - Practice it. The timing is harder than it is for other characters but it's absolutely feasible, and certainly not "inhuman." However, you can easily fail if the stage is not perfectly flat. Beware of the downhill of Lylat's tilt. Or parts of Delfino that are sloped or rounded. End your chaingrab when you reach that type of terrain, or you will get dolphin slashed. Do chaingrab him across the stage to a wall where you can dthrow infinite.
Marth's grab game - It's useful in a few situations, whereas DDD's is useful in many situations. 0-30% (fthrow x3 fsmash) and it gets you offstage or on the ledge. Just be careful of it when you're at 0 or low percent. Later on in your stock his grabs are less to worry about except if he tries to use it as one of his options to move you towards a wall, where he can DOWN TILT LOCK you. (costs you your stock, refreshes his moveset, etc)
Marth on the stage, DDD on the ledge - this is the worst position that can occur in this matchup. Never retreat to the ledge just to regenerate your shield, I think that's a terrible idea. Don't ever let him pressure you to the ledge. Shield-grab his dancing blade, waddle toss his fair-zoning. If you retreat and he chases, throw out a bair behind you.
Marth's recovery - gimpable. Sure, be careful of getting hit, but you can do it if you're smart about it. Don't let him live to high percent, this is pretty much DDD's most important advantage (that DDD himself will live to high percent). Send him offstage far and low rather than far and high if you can, so as to limit his return options more.
DDD's recovery - very harrassable. Conserve jumps if you can before using your up-B. Mix it up or else he's going to knock you offstage perpetually. One thing I personally like to use is to perfectly space the up-B such that you land immediately at the apex of your jump. To me this is easiest on Yoshi's Island. He can still punish this if he expects it though.
DDD's bair vs. Marth's fair - use a retreating bair, rather than an approaching bair. Harass him with waddles and ftilt to bait out a chase, kick him in the face as you run. If he's just fair zoning and you're not in its immediate range, just throw a gordo, it's safe.
Shieldbreaker - You may be tempted to punish it, but you probably shouldn't as its ending lag is quite short, and DDD is slow horizontally. Also note that unless it is FULLY charged (in which case your shield breaks) it will always take away 80% of your shield, no matter how much or how little it was charged. So attempting the powershield is somewhat safe if you have a full shield, as long as the marth doesn't charge it all the way. It's a smaller issue than everything else mentioned here, but if you slip up I suppose the results can be disastrous.
Stages - Ban battlefield. I'd strike Lylat just because of the uneven floor. Final Destination is your friend because it is large and therefore less likely you'll have to be pressured to the ledge. Castle Siege if you can manage the chaingrab, but beware of chaingrabbing on part 1 and 3 where it's not perfectly flat. Halberd if you want to abuse a low ceiling. Be careful of walls, you can use them for a free stock, but so can he.
DDD does have the advantage because if you both play it right, DDD lives to higher percent while marth can be gimped. You're forced to play it smart, and patiently, being either overly aggressive or defensive at the wrong times can be punished. And you really have to be careful of stages. There's too little room for mistakes. Because of all that...[...]
hope it helps the discussion. anyone please chime in if you disagree with anything here (except for whether or not you can Chaingrab marth. that one's set in stone.)
Ok, well I decided to write a Marth summary in case you wanted to use it. If you don't want to use it thats ok I took it all from what people wrote with the discussion, with a tiny bit of personal experience.
Marth Summary
This matchup can be easy if you know how to handle marths but can be difficult otherwise. Marth has a terrible recovery, and you can abuse this by CGing him to the edge and attempting to gimp him with bairs. Although his UP+B has good priority so watch out for that. Also notice that sometimes his UP+B will hit you if you are standing on the ledge and he UP+B's into the ledge. The marth's spacing has to be near perfect or he will get easily punished by DDD and his large grab range, while he has trouble punishing DDD for moves. Ftilt works great to stop his spaced wall of Fairs and Nairs and his Dancing blade. Shield grab his Dancing Blade. Most of the time if they see they are going to get grabbed they will stop the dancing blade on the 1st or 3rd swing, but it is still possible to grab them, although beware the down (green) version can shield poke if your shield is already low.
Also note that Marth has a chaingrab on DDD with fthrow up to around 150% (not sure, this is what Gates wrote in the Marth discussion but I think you can easily get out of it by then, can someone confirm). At 0% he can Fthrow-> tippered Fsmash and he can spike you out of the chaingrab until around 12% However DDD gets thrown a fair way forward so Marth can only get around 6-8 grabs in on FD assuming he starts at the end, which is around 24%. Although Ftilt is great for stopping his approaches it won't stop all of them so don't rely on it or spam it. You're going to have to SCG well this matchup or marth can Up+B out of it. If you predict it however you can upsmash him while his in his helpless state, or regrab and Dthrow for more mindgames. Marth is the lightest character you can chaingrab so at higher percents if you predict the UP+B, Utilt or Usmash it, or pull out the Jet hammer.
As mentioned before a great way to kill Marth is by gimping him with wall of pain Bairs and then edgehogging to make sure. You don't even have to send him out that far to kill him and the chaingrab gives you an opportunity to get him offstage.
A common move for Marths to pressure shields is SH double Fair -> Dancing Blade down version (green). This will punish you if you attempt to grab after the Double Fair. You can also outcamp Marth but remember that he is fast and if you throw a waddle dee when he his too close he can punish you for it. I doubt marth could get you far enough off the stage to be force you to use your UP+B because of his bad recovery but when you must use it be careful and try to sweetspot the ledge. Marth can easily punish your UP+B with Fair or Nair, Dancing Blade, or Usmash as you're coming down. Alternatively you could occasionally try to land your UP+B on the stage right at the apex of your jump which might be unexpected.
DDD's chaingrab gives him more control over the match as he can either chaingrab the Marth off the edge and attempt a gimp or go into Mindgames and try to predict if the Marth will use UP+B. One of the most dangerous places for DDD in this matchup is the ledge. Marth can cover all his ledge options with ease and it can be difficult for DDD to get back on the stage. If you're on a high percent or winning on stock you can jump -> fastfall inhale from the ledge which most Marths won't be expecting and swallowcide.
Don't always punish shield breaker as its ending lag is quite short. Unless it is fully charged it will always take away 80% of your shield so watch out. Also remember it can be used as a recovery method as he gains a lot of horizontal momentum after it. When using Bair, use a retreating Bair instead of an approaching one as it will clank with Marths Fair.
Good stages: Final Destination, Castle Siege, Halberd, Pokemon Stadium 1
Final Destination gives you good room to chaingrab and lets you slow the match down to the pace you want. The lip makes it good for stage spikes as well. Castle siege is good for walk offs on the second stage but beware of chaingrabs on the first and third stage where it is not flat. Halberd has a low ceiling so its good for killing him early. PS1 is great for DDD as he can chaingrab marth to a wall and infinite him there, though beware that Marth can chaingrab you to a wall and infinite you with Dtilt so beware of that.
Ban: Battlefield, Brinstar, Yoshi's Island, Norfair.
Marth can punish your UP+B with the platforms on these stages and can generally abuse the platforms better then you can.
I fight a D3 mainer on a semi-regular basis, and a few others at tournies. D3 might be Lucario's worst matchup. If it's not his worst, it's definitely his most frustrating.
-Luc is pretty much forced to approach for the majority, of not all of this match.
- Lucario can't pressure with auraspheres (AS) very well, partially because the waddles block it, but also because a surprise gordo can destroy Luc, making it too risky.
- D3 can obviously chaingrab Luc across the stage and set him up for some edgeguarding pain. I honestly don't see many gimps, but racking the damage on hurts.
- If Luc is lucky enough to get a forcepalm grab (FPG) on D3 when they're at low percents, he can take good advantage of it. It's rare though, and with D3's monster grab range it's often not worth the risk, unless D3 does something punishable.
- On the ground, D3's ftilt outranges everything in Luc's arsenal other than an AS. If close enough and timed just right, I suppose Luc could powershield it and punish, but I'm not sure about that.
- In the air, D3's dair, uair, and bair win over mostly anything Luc can throw at him. Luc can approach from the front (if D3 doesn't have enough time to turn around and bair), or a 45 degree angle to get in some fairs.
- If D3 isn't careful, Luc can charge an AS on top of his shield to chip away at it. Luc can mixup approaches coming out of shfair. The only unpunishable approach is shfair then jump away. If Luc can read D3 well enough, he can mixup beween shfair->bair from the other side, shfair->dair (delayed),shfair->nair, shfair->AS. All of those except for shfair->AS can be punished easily if D3 just holds his shield up. The trick is to make D3 think you're not using a 2nd attack, or that he has time to interrupt, then surprise him with a hit.
- The main problem is that any trick Luc tries obviously has a risk. If he outsmarts, D3 Luc stands to gain a short combo assuming D3 can DI properly, while if D3 reacts properly he gains a changrab across the stage followed by offstage fighting in his advantage.
- Luc wants to get D3 in the air and generally above him in this match, it's hard to do but a definite advantage.
- If D3 is forced to use his upB and land on stage, Luc can Usmash through it, or shAD then dair. If D3 is careless and hangs onto the edge too long, Luc can fsmash him. Luc can put some reasonable pressure on D3 recovering... as long as he doesn't fall for D3's neutralB.
- It's not uncommon for Luc to live to 140%, because while D3 can rack up damage, he doesn't have that many KO moves that Luc easily falls for or can't handle.
- Luc, however, has an even harder time KOing D3. If Luc is high in damage, then D3 still needs to be well into the 100's. If Luc is on a fresh stock, it's pretty easy for D3 to live to 170%.
In theory, it should be a huge advantage--we win in the air, we have the CG, I believe we're heavier, etc. etc.
In practice, I feel like we don't. We really can't gimp ROB (honestly, who can?) and a smart camper won't even let us get near. No reflector means we have to be on guard for the projectiles at all times. The only ROB I play against is extremely predictable but still does pretty well.
DDD is one of the few characters in the game that can really pressure ROB offstage. Multiple hops combined with that nasty bair just beats everything ROB can do, even airdodge unless it's perfectly timed. I've probably run out of gas vs DDD more than vs any other character.
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Definitely one of ROB's toughest matchups.
My apologies if there was a thread export, I couldn't find one.
The approach:
This is where everyone struggles the most, but you honestly don't even have to memorize any timing! Dash towards ROB and watch his body very closely. Before both of his projectiles, he does some sort of motion i.e. lifting his head. That is when you shield cancel your dash, you will powershield him every time flawlessly. When you get to ROB, do NOT try to shield grab, you're asking to get punished bad. However, dedede has some very difficult to punish options at this point.
-Spaced Ftilt
It will trade hits with ROB's ftilt, which he probably isn't even going to use because of the worry of being grabbed, and it completely outranges the rest of his moves. Unless he tries to approach and powershield it, ROB cannot punish your ftilt from its farthest range, not even with projectiles as they are slower than your move.
-Short hop reverse bair
My favorite move in the game again. Here is another matchup where your bair completely beats all of your opponents aerials, except nair, which will clash with it only if you hit the very end of the nair, which you shouldn't try at high %! Remember to mix it up much like I pointed out against Marth when doing this, If ROB shields they're going to try to punish probably with an ftilt or grab, so utilize your jumps and dair his shield a few times before you land, orrrrr
-Swallow
All ROB can do about this is space an ftilt or fsmash you. If you're mixing up your air approach, don't be afraid to pivot a swallow after your bair or even just run right up to him and SH swallow. They're not going to see it coming for the most part unless you've already done it so it's free damage.
Where we win this matchup:
We gimp ROB almost as bad as metaknight does except we don't get a shuttle loops. There is almost absolutely no risk in going offstage and bairing everything ROB has. I cannot tell you how many times I have run a ROB out of fuel (**** those gas prices) because I kept bairing his up B. I get most of my damage on this and not on chaingrabs. Plus it makes them have to either grab the ledge, where you edgeguard ROB tremendously, or up B overhead, which is a grab opportunity on landing.
As far as edgegaurding goes, there are a couple things ROB will try while on the ledge.
-Sidehop fair
This can be beaten simply by throwing out a bair. ALSO, this is a killing opportunity! If you read the ROB doing this, and you shield it, you can uptilt right after. Too good
-Sidehope nair
I just downtilt it as I see it come out, easy as that.
-Side hop projectile
Just ftilt him if you see him trying to space to shoot you
-Get up attack
Free shield grab
When can I grab ROB?
The reason most Dedede players find this matchup even IMO is because they spend the whole matchup trying to grab ROB and end up getting punished over and over creating an illusion that ROB has a lot of stuff on Dedede. Simply put, don't think about the grab in this matchup. The only time you have it is if you powershield a drop Fair, a jab, an ftilt in close encounters, or shield his entire downsmash. These are very rare mistakes for a good ROB to make. If they make that mistake, cool, free chaingrab, if not, you need to play the way I've suggested.
Overall I would say 60:40 dedede or maybe even 65:35 dedede
Wow, I haven't contributed in awhile, allow me to rectify that.
Firstly, as we know, it's Toon Link. If you're somewhat familiar with the game you know he has a nice little arsenal he can use against you to rack up damage. How well you can time your powershields will be put to the test here.
Anyway, first off, Ftilt cancels boomerangs and arrows. As do Waddles and Utilts, but they take a little bit longer to come out (Waddles do, at least). So that narrows down the TL's options that much more. So all that's really left is the bombs. Learn to catch them and powershield. Be wary though, they'll sometimes bounce off your shield, so keep that in mind.
So you've "broken" their projectile game, don't be surprised if they still sneak in a few, just keep doing what you're doing. They might try to do some cross-ups*, so make sure you've practiced your pivot grabs. Zair can be tricky if they do it right, learn the range of that if you don't already have it.
Gimping, I'd say Dedede definitely has the advantage here. Again, big, but he also has a lot of recovery himself, he can follow TL out there and finish him off if need be, then float back safely to the stage like nothing happened. Something I'd like to try, as it just popped into my head, would be to try pulling the Jet Hammer on a recovering Toon Link, assuming you're playing one that ends up going a little above the stage before they cling to the edge. Again, just a thought, no idea if it's actually reliable.
TL is light and has a little trouble killing Dedede due to his bulk, but don't take him for granted, he's fairly agile. Dedede does have the advantage here.
*cross-ups are basically using attacks (typically aerials) that go past the opponent, as to get behind them, for example jumping past the opponent and using a Bair.
I run around and shield, then when they're in the air i bair them. When they come within range I grab them. Sometimes I up tilt but i believe Jet hammer is a far better killing move in this matchup by a fair margin since DDD is allowed to nibbly dodge projectiles while holding his massive hammer. Sometimes I also Up b at them, since DDD is also a pokemon UP B has the same effect as scary face, They're un able to escape and get hit by it. Then I taunt them 3 times in a row and push up up down down left right left right B A Start and my hammer transforms into the golden hammer.
I play a pretty good Pit on an almost daily basis, lets see if I can spread some light on the subject of this match-up.
First and foremost, Pits arrows needs to be addressed. While most long range projectiles give D3 trouble, I find this one of the easiest to power shield. Maybe it's because I play him so much and no the timing for uncharged and charged, but if you can get past this, you take away one of his biggest assets in the match.
Nair does in fact **** shields in two instances. If it's not almost completely fresh, or you don't tilt it up. One thing my Pit player loves doing is FFNairing and landing behind me in an attempt to perform the CG if my shield isn't fresh, which is pretty smart. However, one most examine the risk - reward ratio here. Since Pit's Nair can be SG'd, and Pit only has a CG up into the 40s - 50s, it's generally not a good idea to approach since D3 can CG to the end of the stage. Pit for the most part will in fact be eating more damage, and since D3's weight doesn't allow him to die early, Pit loses in this aspect.
Does Pit want to space Fairs/Bairs to shield pressure? Jump back/forward with him and Fair/Bair yourself. Most of the time you'll win, if not trade damage. But even then, trading damage is ok, since you kill Pit way earlier then he kills you.
Is the Pit attempting to run up and grab you? Ftilt will stop him in his tracks, but most good Pit players mix up their grab game. Watch out for Jab, grab, jab, Dtilt to space. Most of the time you need to be just outside of his range to beat all these efforts with a proper SG. ( The tip of your boxing glove ).
Now what I've done here is effectively shut down Pit's long range game and approach game, meaning the one advantage he has left is edge camping. He has a lot of options here, but with a little knowledge, good D3's can shut down this part of his game plan as well. Firstly, always hit with the tip of your Dtilt in an attempt to pressure the Pit. You wont him to be clinging on the edge, jumping down, and reclinging. If he ever lets his invincibility frames wear off, start edgegaurding, because even with the Up + B, dair wing renewal, I think that's what it's called, gimping pit isn't very hard. Bairs simply **** this angel offstage. Smart ledgecampers attempt to Uair through the stage. When this happens, either realize he is going for it, float around, and bair for the stage spike, or dair. You win either way. The safer option is dair, as pit bairing you offstage hurts.
This is the match up I've been waiting to analyze for the longest time. My entire defensive play style that I use on just about every character now evolved around me trying to beat my friends Peach.
Most Peach players will feel the need to poke around using their float, and like Praxis said, down air you to hell and back into an up air, up tilt at low percents. My solution to this is perfectly spaced forward airs. If she's floating at you, just jump back with her. Fighting peach is similar to fighting melee Marth in the sense that there is a bubble surrounding Peach that you don't want to enter if your playing on the ground. Back airs work well, and used defensively stuff just about everyone one of her moves. Personally, I save my back airs for edge guarding solely, but on some characters I need to abuse my priority to break one of their moves. Fortunately for us, Peach isn't one of those characters I find myself using them on for the purpose of beating one of her hit boxes out.
A good Peach player gets grabbed rarely, as most of the time she's aerial, only dropping to the ground when it's time to die. When you enter the 130's, most Peaches will start to FF forward airs at you in an attempt to kill. If you don't perfect shield the hit, you are usually not open for a free grab, as Peach's neutral A combo comes out pretty quickly and will beat out your attempt. Sadly, getting the grab is crucial as it is one of my favorite and main damage dealers in this match. Most chain grabs to the edge mean at least 20% guaranteed, and you need to put on that damage and kill her asap. Why asap? Well why not, you've got more matches ahead/better things to be doing.
From my experience, Peach's main kill moves are the Fair, perfectly tipped Up smash which kills in the early 100's, I think below 120, and the bomb/stitch face. Remember how you love using your side - B in hopes of getting that lucky Gordo kill? The feeling of satisfaction you get from that is unimaginable. Well, maybe I'm over exaggerating it just a tad, but the point of the story is, Peach has **** to throw back at you as well. Stitch faces do a good deal of damage, and travel fairly fast and can be glide tossed into. It's going to hurt if you get hit. Same applies to the bomb. I've never had a bomb glide tossed at me, but **** that would really suck now that I think about it. Pay attention to the faces on the turnips if you can, knowing what she has at her disposal can pay off.
As with most characters, you **** Peach off the stage simply put. Back air her as much as you please. You might want to lay off if she's below you though, I've found her Up B going through some of my attacks on various occasions. And don't just be cautious about the Up B, she can use any aerial while in float mode. Edge guarding peach is tricky. She can get that edge when she needs to, as well as bob and weave your attacks, so be careful.
In my opinion, this match up is [in] Peach's favor. She's just got combo potential at the wazoo on you during the early percents, and if it wasn't hard for her to kill you as most of her kill moves are telegraphed in advance, this match would be significantly harder. The importance of spacing in this match is of top priority.
This match up is even. Here is Info on what Peach has to do against DDD.
DDD Can chain grab Peach at any percent. Peach and Marth are the easiest characters for DDD to chaingrab. If DDD Does it right, your not getting out. Only way you are breaking free is if DDD messes up on it.
This fight is all about spacing. Space your moves as much as you can. His Range when he spaces can be a pain. If you miss space just for a sec, your gonna get grabbed. Space your moves and pressure his shield as much as possible. You can pressure him better than he can do you.
I dont care how big he is or his speed. DDD is not the character you wanna rush. Cause his grabs are insane. So you mess up once, even through jabs, your gonna get grabbed.
This can lead to a campfest so if you lose your cool easy in fights, your in trouble. Also due to the fact that he does not die so easy. So if your gonna go Fair happy, expect him to live no matter how many times you get him off the stage.
What you wanna do is just rack up damage. Then once he is at a good %, then get some kill moves off him. just do basic combos if you can get them in (yes now I recommend you go combo happy on him) to get some damage off. Since Nair cant really kill DDD that well, but had decent power, use it out the shield alot, or in general if you can. Get some jabs, Dairs, Nairs and grabs in there to start off when he is below 100% Just be quick and get him with those hits, and some turnips. Save your B/U/Nair for after or close to 100%. Also if you can get a pillar off him then go for it. also helps rack up damage and eats the shield (BUT SPACE IT CAUSE HE CAN GRAB YOU IF YOU SCREW IT UP)
When you grab him, dont throw him right away. Kick him a few good times then toss him. He is not gonna die so why not rack up some damage while he is in your grip. For throw options at mid % or higher, just throw him Up. Why? Cause for one thing, Fthrow won't kill him and he will also DI it so he will be at a point where turnips wont hit him, or you for that matter. Now if you throw him up, he is easier to hit with turnips cause he is above field range and you can hit him with turnips easy. And he is not all that fast while airborn. Its kinda slow. Your not gonna kill him off of throws so keep him at a range where you can attack him and get a finisher off. But you can sneak Fthrows in as well and it can screw up thier DI. And will get launched foward in stead of going high up off of the fthrow. And from there it wont be hard to snipe him with turnips or a finisher.
If there are waddledees while in your range, get rid of them. To leave them around the stage, you will regret it.
Don't be in the air too much. Cause it can be clearly seen what you are gonna do. And DDD will just be rolling away. Though making it hard to hit him, no matter how big he is. And you won't be getting anywhere. Mix both your air and ground game. (I recommend you get your ground game on point if you don't have a good one. or your gonna have some trouble. You cant always be in the air)
Get your grabs in there. you can do the most and the easiest damage off of him off your grabs. Mix them up. with your dash attacks. Actually, I limit my dash attacks here. Don't use them so much here.
Peach Attacking Dedede:
It's full of spamming turnips and well played Dairs and Fairs. It's always dangerous for peach to approach from the air because if your around 80%, an Up-Tilt from Dedede will kill peach, So I would suggest never trying to approach Dedede from directly above his head; However staying in the air with peach is always a good thing, fairing at Dedede from a decent range stops him from shield grabbing Peach. Remember, if peach is grabbed shes taking about 20-30%plus a possible tech chase off-stage to dying.
Dedede Attacking Peach:
Dedede relies heavy on his grab game, this is true and everybody knows and understands this, however Dedede also has his Bair and Up-Tilt which will make the match up much harder then any Peach would want it to be. I believe Dedede's Bair beats everything peach has besides her fair, but Dedede's Bair is much quicker then Peach's fair. A well placed Up-Tilt can end a Peach at 80% which is pretty good considering this is brawl and everybody lives long.
Pretty much its a tough match for Peach but I would actually think of it as an even match up considering Dedede's grab game is important and Peach is one of the ( If not ) hardest characters to grab, not to mention her overall movement can be too much for Dedede. I really think the only way to fight Dedede with Peach is to use lag canceled fairs into slaps and spamming turnips.
Peach can Fair to jab him. If you space it right, DDD cant shield grab you. I am the type of Peach that spaces like hell, and when I do it right, no matter what, DDD can't grab me after I Fair, Unless Dedede perfect shields the fair.
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Here is three tournament matches where I fought the best DDD in N.Y.
And I don't like playing agressive. But when you balance both out you can freely switch and it helps you in matches. So Peach that can play both offensive and defensive and balance it out, can make it really hard for DDD.
Shiek/Zelda, the ninja/magical princess of Brawl. This is an interesting match up for D3. Lets see, where to begin...
Firstly, realize that the king does not have a chain grab on neither Shiek or Zelda, and depending on which of the two your fighting/your opponents playstyle, you may be forced to approach. Approaching with our lovable penguin as many of you probably know is not D3's strongest suit, however it is possible. Full hop down airs, short hopped back airs, and forward tilts are probably your best options in this fight, especially if your being needle camped or set ablaze by din's fire.
In my opinion, DeDeDe has a slight edge when fighting against Shiek. Since Zelda's alter ego has no multiple hitting aerial attacks, any instance in which your opponent improperly spaces an aerial attack means a free grab, which you should then proceed to back throw. I'm not sure if down throw, forward tilt combo works or not since Shiek is pretty light, so just opt for a back throw unless it's severely decayed and doing 10% or less. Be cautious if the Shiek your fighting is more ground oriented and aggressive. Getting caught up in a foward tilt lock is free damage for Shiek if you don't SDI (smash DI) up and out of there quickly. Racking up damage on D3 as Shiek is fairly easy during the early percents, but I believe the main reason D3 has a small advantage over Shiek in this match is due to her lack of killing power. That boost smash hurts bad, but once you get around that, she should have some trouble killing you if she's decayed her Fair/Bair, but even then, that's not one of her best killing moves (vanish). You should only be getting hit by vanish through mind games or if the Shiek user forces you to Up B from off the stage. In most instances, this wont happen, but smart Shiek users can hit you from your jumps via needles sometimes causing you to use your super jump. This puts you in a bad position, so recover carefully. On the flip side, edge guarding Shiek is pretty easy. Back air her to oblivion, as her Up B doesn't cover very much horizontal or vertical distance to save this ninja if you hit her decently far away from the stage. I'm not saying go out of your way to gimp her, but a few well placed bairs is enough to do the trick. If all else fails, up tilt kills at around 100% (give or take).
Zelda on the other hand can be troublesome for such a big and heavy character such as D3. Most Zelda users will force you to approach them, throwing Din's fire out until you do so. If I'm not mistaken, a back aerial can cancel these flames out if you hit it right, so keep that in mind if your shields low. Once you get to close to Zelda however, her multi - hitting smash attacks simply eat D3 alive. Her up smash is beastly, again SDI out of there quickly or you'll be eating a good amount of damage. Normally this isn't a problem for DeDeDe due to his weight, but Zelda by no means lacks killing power. She has a spike, though hard and a bit risky to perform, an up air to kill you off the top, and a monstrous forward air that make users with bad DI, or just users who are unaware of her power, make them sorry for underestimating her. Honestly, I use waddle dees/doos/gordos alot in this match up, even if she can just reflect them back. Approaching her is hard, you have to constantly be mixing it up or prepare to be punished. Again, full hop down airs to shield poke, as well as back airs. Going in for the shield grab on the ground can be risky, as Zelda users down tilt trips, and trips, and trips some more. SDI away, less you eat a down smash. Like Shiek, you **** Zelda offstage, as her Up B covers a lot of distance, but is easily thwarted by smart use of invincibility frames. Back air her way off stage, wait for her to announce she's using her Up B, grab, then do a get up attack/roll if necessary to edge hog. Your main goal this fight is getting her off stage asap and making sure she doesn't come back. Zelda out camps you, plain and simple, and with the ability to shut down most of your approaches, this is going to be a long and tedious fight.
All in all, Ziek is a rough match up for King DeDeDe, especially if they just stay Zelda (which most will). Your going to have to play a tight spacing game, and generally just smart decision making if you hope to win this fight.
Lucas can keep u at bay with pk fires...his air dodge is nuts. He can short hop fairs and nair, and side Bs...then mix and approaching short hop air dodge into you followed up with a short hop nair. This is tough when Lucas gets inside of you...he can cover himself with up tilts f tilts and jabs. Also beware of lucas' up b...it can be deadly. His f smash is his most dangerous move in my opinion. Also...his dair will prevent u to do anything from under him...not even an up air...
Projectiles aren't really a big issue agaisnt D3 if you're moving. We know that D3 rely on Grabs, and tilts on the ground. if you get grabbed, you will get chained unless they mess up which on most neutrals means a free edgegaurd attempt. However, sonic can minimalize the effect of grabs pretty well if he is solid withi hi sground game.
Quick movements outside of his f-tilt range, and fakes and punishment with spins; used intellegently they seem to be the best option for damage against d3, because not only is his size a weakness agaisnt Spindash combos, they also give you the option of escape if it is blocked, preventing a possible chaingrab attempt. Also, tilts are very unsafe against a defensive d3 due to the grab range. D3's best options to try to stop your graound assult is to try to predict and punish with tilts, and bair, and as a last resort use his quick sidedodege, which you should expect. if the D3 is really good expect several reverse grab attempts. punish with grabs and get the most damage u can the moment he gets predictable, using your speed and feints to trick the D3 into additional setups.
either of you are over the edge, i thnk its 50/50. both characters have strong recovery and can have a hard time gimping the other one just as well IMHO. Beware of bair edgegaurding and the strong possibility of a DDDcide if the match gets close or he has a stock lead. remember, that if he gets you with it and you both have one stock, he wins in tourneys now.
dair and uair are really good tools for punishment and ledgecamping for D3, but the tendancy to use them varies from player to player. he can anticipate attacks from below with it, so bait and punish that if you can.
Predict patterns in the usage of his tilts and bairs, then punish the likely spotdodges. Constant movment to avoid getting chaingrabbed. Use the spins and thier feints, throw setups. and followups to the fullest extent to deal damage and put pressure on D3. You can deal lots of damage quickly to him and for the most part take little, but the secoond you get grabbed DDD gets the advantage. combined with his wieght he gets more chances to do it.
Kojin's judgement: slightly disadvantage for Sonic, but winnable nonetheless.
I play this matchup pretty much every day, and my older brother is a pretty decent Dedede.
Squirtle has a slight-to-moderate advantage. He can't get in safely on a grounded Dedede unless he powershields a Waddle Dee or a Forward-Tilt, but you can literally spam Water Gun on Dedede all day with a positive outcome.
If Dedede falls off the level, Squirtle will hurt him a lot. When Dedede gets the ledge, he's at a disadvantage, as Squirtle's F-Tilt beats out a normal multi-jump Dedede F-Air after the first one, and Squirtle can give chase after a ledge jump or ledge roll to knock him off the stage again. Dedede is also notoriously easy to footstool, so Squirtle can mix up annoying F-Airs and B-Airs with simple footstools. If Dedede is recovering, he's probably going to die, since Squirtle can pelt him with aerials until he's forced to Up-B, where he can restart the process all over again. Squirtle's D-Air has the ability to "kill" a recovering Dedede at as low as 90-ish%, as well; if Dedede runs out of jumps, you can D-Air him out of his Up-B, dealing significant-enough knockback to allow you to Water Gun the next Up-B.
The only thing Dedede has in this matchup is much better range on his grounded attacks and his grab. Dedede can kill Squirtle at low percentages, but he has no solid way to land those attacks if Squirtle just stays away from him. Dedede cannot chaingrab Squirtle, so getting the free 16% from a B-Throw is usually the best option from a grab. While Dedede has better range on his aerials, the fact that Squirtle maneuvers much better makes this point almost moot. It's usually a very long, since Squirtle can't kill well, Dedede is fat, and fatigue will set in fairly quickly. Still, Squirtle doesn't have to approach on the ground at all, which makes this a tough fight for Dedede.
Ivysaur vs. Dedede isn't as bad for Ivysaur as one might think. A good Ivysaur will be doing everything in his power to prevent himself from getting grabbed, and he has good tools for that. Some lesser-known ways of doing that is short-hopped Razor Leaf and his incredibly-safe D-Tilt, which is sort of like a B-Air that doesn't move, but has good knockback.
Ivysaur will B-Air all day if it means that Dedede doesn't get inside...but it's a bit nerve-racking for both characters. If Dedede whiffs something on the ground, he eats a Bullet Seed, which is usually a free 30-40%. If Ivysaur whiffs something on the ground, he eats a chaingrab -> D-Tilt, which is usually a free 20-40%, as well as setting up for a potential edgeguard. As a result, it's usually a waiting game...and Dedede is better-equipped for it, honestly.
However, Ivysaur is well-equipped for killing a recovering Dedede. B-Airs essentially force another jump, and D-Tilt outspaces Dedede's F-Air/B-Air at the ledge while doing significant knockback. An Up-B from Dedede is just begging to get Up-Smashed by Ivysaur, as well, killing him at about 90%. Getting Up-B'd by Ivysaur is also a good alternative, and is a potent kill move.
And, while you don't need me to tell you, Dedede can edgeguard Ivysaur pretty easily with F-Airs and B-Airs. Simple and effective; if Dedede can use a throw to get Ivysaur off the level, he's in a good position to potentially take a stock.
I'd put this in Dedede's favor, and that's mostly because of Dedede's speed (You don't hear that often, XD) over Ivysaur. This is mostly about who gets the other off the level first, and we all know how good Dedede is at that.
Charizard vs. Dedede is probably the most comfortable matchup for Dedede, because Charizard can't really space Dedede out via aerials. Charizard is going to be spamming Flamethrower all day, since Dedede can't really get around it. If Dedede is lucky, he might get a Gordo to go through the fire if he does it early enough, but otherwise it'll be shielded.
If he gets above Dedede, Charizard can't land on the stage safely at all, because none of his aerials are safe enough. Dedede should seek to get immediately under Charizard and grab him when he hits the ground. The only things Charizard can do is attempt to Flamethrower Dedede before he gets in range, or use Rock Smash as soon as he gets into range. Flamethrower is easily telegraphed this way, and Dedede should be able to roll behind and grab him with little problem. Rock Smash can usually be shield-grabbed, but if Dedede's shield is low, he might eat some damage instead. Since Dedede is a large character, it's not difficult for Charizard to space Rock Smash so that it deals that dreaded 45% from the shards. Either way, Dedede should be able to deal with a falling Charizard with little trouble.
Charizard can attempt to space you out with B-Airs, but any other aerial will be getting shield-grabbed. If Dedede throws a Waddle Dee while Charizard is on the ground, it's probably going to get powershielded, and Dedede is probably going to get grabbed.
Charizard's best bet for damage is going to be doing a F-Throw/B-Throw to get you off the level, and attempt to edgeguard. F-Air has massive gimping potential, so if a Dedede is recovering from high, you should try to land that for a KO. If Dedede is recovering from really high and you expect an airdodge to safety, a short-hopped N-Air from Charizard will always hit him when he lands. If Dedede is recovering from below, Flamethrower pretty much renders the edge ungrabbable, and if Dedede is caught in the fire, he's almost forced to take a large chunk of damage...and U-Smash is a reliable kill move around 120-130%. F-Smash is a given if Dedede lands on the ground from an Up-B. If you can outsmart Dedede, sometimes a D-Air spike is in order, as well.
Charizard is easy to edgeguard because of his large size and lack of helpful aerials while recovering. A couple F-Airs or B-Airs from Dedede will put him out of the game, or at least in a position where he has to land with Fly, which starts up another chaingrab. Charizard also has no reliable means of getting back on the stage from the ledge, as every realistic option can be shield-grabbed, so Dedede will take full advantage of that.
This is probably in Dedede's favor. Charizard hates being in the air against him.
As such, the matchup itself is probably in Dedede's favor. Hardly an easy fight, but it's doable on both sides if they play right. Mostly about who gets the momentum first.
Ness is an aerial atacker, who's moveset supports getting people into the air for juggling and throws build dmg and knock into air.
Anyway, D3 needs to be careful of that waddle spam as Ness can absorb Waddle Doo's lasers for like 30% if he absorbs all of them.
Also, if Ness gets D3 in the air or inside his defenses, he gets aerially jugggled as Ness can chain his aerials in succession. And with D3's weight, its gonna hurt.
But that's only if Ness gets D3 in the air which means getting into D3's defense and knocking or throwing him into the air without getting grabbed or sheild grabbed. And most of Ness's ground moves knock someone into the air.
As for Pk Fire, if Ness does it from a full jump as soon as he jumps, the lag wears off when Ness is still in the air after he throws the bolt and he can do a double jump which means either another Pk Fire or another move. He can also do a rising aerial attack due to the properties of his double jump so if D3 gets hit with a lagless aerial Pk Fire Ness can drift over to him and do a rising aerial. Or if a D3 persues Ness high enough into the air, Ness can do an aerial Pk Fire. If Ness is too close, he gets grabbed of course.
Concerning gimping, Ness has a large 2nd jump and he can do a rising aerial during that 2nd jump as it curves. Of course, D3's bair could take care of that unless he does a rising fair early enough but it depends on the space. Another thing is not let D3's up-b land him on Stage as if the Ness camps your landing spot(even away from the stars) he can use a fully chraged Pk Flash, which is very strong and a Ko move at med/high dmg. Though its not that easy as D3's can alter his landing spot somewhat. Of course, if D3 cancels his Up-B on the way to grab the ledge, you're okay.
Ness can juggle d3 with up-tilt if he gets really close.
If D3 spot dodges(how good is his spotdodge?), Ness' short hop down aerial has a long enough hitbox to hit you which will get you in the air. same with both of his Yoyo smashes as he can leave them out for a bit. Also concerning Ness's Down Air, it is one of the most powerful spikes in the game next to Ganon's. It can intercept the part of D3's Up-B thats not super armor(on the way down). Another thing is watch for the tail of Pk thunder as it can intercept the on the way down also.
As for Pk thunder, it can only be canceled out if you hit the head of it which D3's aerials should take care of if the head is nearby but it depends how maneuverable D3 is in the air. The tail is the real problem. As Ness's thunder is faster(and harder to turn) than Lucas's, air or spot dodging will get you hit by the tail. Shielding takes of it unless D3 is in the air which means you have to atk the head if its nearby. Also if you throw a waddle when Ness sends out a PKT and that waddle hits the tail of Thunder, that waddle may stop moving and land. Ness can wiggle the Thunder around you to bait you or juggle(if in the air).
PK Thunder 2/Pk Missle/Pk Jibaku/whateveryouwanttocallit is a devastating KO move if it hits as the move is telegraphed in advanced. Its when Ness hits himself with the thunder and the Ness strikes someone. And unlike Lucas's, its a single strike with a lot of power behind it on startup until the later weaker part of it which can be intercepted. And it does have invincibility frames on startup. Since D3 is a big target, getting hit by this one is a nono.
Now, the only ways Ness can hit you with that move is
1. D3 is in the air(which he shouldn't be unless he is edgeguarding or ness kocks him in the air), and Ness is nearby and you get hit by the tail. Ness then directs the head of thunder back to himself and hits you while you are still stuck in the tail. Now can this only be done thru either mindgames or if D3 gets hit by the tail with Ness nearby in a position to redirect the head to himself at an angle.
Since d3 is a defensive guy(is he?), this shouldn't happen unless Ness gets you into the air and even then its still not always a sure thing as it takes The head of thunder hitting Ness at the right angle to launch him into someone that is stunned. On the ground, he can only be launched sideways and slightly diagonal. Just aim for hitting the head of thunder and there will be no problems unless its in D3's blind spot(does he have one?). Also if D3 stays grounded. And of course Ness is vulnerable when hes using Thunder.
2. You try to intercept Ness's recovery and you get hit by the tail and Ness hits you on the startup of PKT2, which is when its the most powerful. Of course that extremely fast back air of D3 takes care of that unless you are too close and get hit by the tail. Just know that most good Ness SHOULD recover with 2nd jump w/rising aerial unless hes too far away from the stage. Wall of pain or Dededecide or swallow and spit out under stage should work.
Any other way is too easy to intercept I believe by a good D3.
Ness has a bad grab-range (nice running grab or pivot grab though), but if he gets into your defenses and grabs you, he'll throw you into the air with any of them as all of his throws put em in the air. From there he will start his aerial assault or Pk thunder.
Ness''s Fair is a fast multi hit move with seperate hitboxes that Ness can use to atk and space. He can also do more than 2 when in the air. When spaced right against D3's sheild, it can sheild stab. D3's back air can trade hits with it if both are done somewhat at some time. depends on the spacing anyway
His Nair is a even faster get out move thats similar to Peach.
His Up-Air can be used to Ko or get someone even higher in the air.
Back-air can also Ko, and has some good knockback.
Down air can knock someone to the ground or spike really fast. And Ness can fast fall to the ground, wait until the get-up atk is initialted and short down-air you to knock you into the air again to resume his assault or just wat until get-up atk is over and then grab.
D3's aerials can trade hits with Ness's sometimes depending on spacing and who initiates them first. D3's vertical aerial moves has more range.
As for KOing, Ness's isnt a light weight. He's a near middle weight(slim) that's near to Mario. Like Mario=1.000 and Ness=0.980. Once D3 gets to around 120, Ness'll try to grab into back-throw, which is a instant ko. Since D3 is heavy, Ness should wait until D3 is around 140 or 150. Also, dont get grabbed on the edge when at high % and Ness's back is to the stage. Back throw will ko even earlier then.
So yeah, just keep Ness grounded and try to gimp once you get him off-stage. Watch out for his aerials as D3 is a big target and don't let him knock you into the air and recover by cancelling up-b by the edge. And watch out for that thunder. This is a 60:40 D3 advantage as D3's tools prevent Ness from doing too much to him but once D3 gets knock into the air, its a bit closer. Ground=D3 Air=Ness to an extent as D3 has a good down and up air.
These vids arent too bad in demonstrating the matchup somewhat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOttqA0X9XQ
That one, the Ness stayed out side of D3's range and did aerials when close enough which juggled and sheild stabbed and he camped the ledge to avoid grabs. Though he still got grabbed and the match was close. The small stage also helped.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJYNRfBe5do&feature=related
This one, Ness got edgeguarded when thunder was used and D3 used swallow when Ness's jumps were predicted. It was harder for Ness to stay out of range as the stage was bigger also causing more damaging chain grabs. Some of the times Pk Fire was used grounded and D3 punished the lag.
I know they are the same people but basically what Im getting at is that D3 can keep Ness at bay, but Ness can juggle him if he gets inside. And since Ness needs to get close to fight aside from thunder and fire its not in his advantage if D3 plays a strong defense.
A good Yoshi can outcamp DDD with eggs which (unless you've got perfect shielding down perfectly) will deal some good damage or weaken ddd's shield considerably. Once the shield is lowered a bit, a Yoshi can approach with a combination of either a turn-around neutral B which can go directly into an up-aerial (14% damage every time and the Yoshi can get away fast enough not to be punished), or the Yoshi can approach with the back-aerial which is guaranteed to hit if the ddd side-dodges or tries to shield because the last portion of the attack will hit after the side dodge is over and since the shield is weakened, it'll hit the vulnerable part on the top portion of the body. The back-aerial is probably Yoshi's best combo starting move; he can use back-aerial => up-tilt => up-aerial (or back-aerial if he's fast enough which can lead to more combo potential) => egg-throw.
If a Yoshi plays defensively like that and waits for opportune moments, he can almost take out the chain-grab entirely. The Yoshi CAN NOT get out of the chain-grab if ddd does it correctly. If the ddd's timing is slightly off, the Yoshi can double-stick DI just far enough away to get a neutral A off which stuns ddd just long enough to escape the chain-grab (but like I said, if the ddd's perfect with the timing, this will never happen). Some Yoshi players will think that side-dodging is the best way to escape the chain-grab. This is entirely false and the reason is that ddd (if you predict the side-dodge) can run PAST Yoshi and do a pivot grab which connects right as Yoshi gets out of the dodge so the ddd can chain-grab back across the stage. Bwett has fallen for this a few times against ddd's (there's one video where he gets chain-grabbed 4 times across the stage (twice right and twice left) and the damage was insane.
DDD can outcamp Yoshi from the edge easily. Yoshi's up-B from the edge (when the Yoshi is hanging on the edge and hits away from the edge and does the up-B toward the stage and regrabs the stage) can only be done 5 times before it doesn't work anymore. Yoshi's up-B is unique in that the first two eggs send Yoshi up a bit, the 3rd and 4th eggs keep Yoshi at the same height, the 5th egg barely slows his down-ward momentum, and the 6th egg onward shows no change in Yoshi's vertical height when falling. Because of this, a Yoshi can only throw 5 eggs from the edge; if he throws a 6th one, he's dead (no question. The lag after throwing the egg is enough where the double jump won't make it back to the edge). To get the vertical height back on the egg throws, Yoshi MUST land on the stage. Once he's back on the stage, everything resets. Because of this limitation, a ddd can easily outcamp from the edge with waddle-dees (and the occasional gordo... god I hate the stupid gordos), drop => up-aerial, etc...
In the air, Yoshi has ddd beat. Yoshi's back aerial and neutral aerial have more priority and are faster than ddd's forward, back, and neutral aerials. Ddd's up-aerial goes through Yoshi's down aerial and ddd's down-aerial goes through Yoshi's up-aerial. Based on that, it's a 3:2 advantage in the air for Yoshi (and most Yoshi players won't use the down aerial unless they're sure at least some of it will connect or they're trying to break your shield with a down-aerial => neutral aerial (44% damage directly to your shield which means if your shield isn't a full shield, it will break)).
The edge-guarding aspect for both characters is pretty close. With ddd's numerous jumps that reset every time he grabs the edge and Yoshi's super-armor in the 2nd jump; it's incredibly difficult to edge-guard either one. Most Yoshi players will save the 2nd jump and instead throw an egg or two first which can grab the edge by itself or just move the Yoshi closer to the edge so he can double jump => air-dodge to be safe while coming back. Something that I've recently discovered is the down-tilt is great for both characters to edge guard. Ddd can use the down-tilt if a Yoshi is trying to throw eggs from the edge to interrupt it and a Yoshi can do a down-tilt to interrupt the up-B and keep Waddle-dee's away safely.
The last thing that I can think of is mentioning Yoshi's chain-grab. I've been told that Yoshi can chain-grab ddd but it's one of the hardest chain-grabs in the game to do. I've only managed it a couple times myself and I think it was only because I caught my opponent off guard. Basically, if Yoshi grabs ddd, he chews until ddd breaks out and then Yoshi dashes forward and regrabs. If done correctly, Yoshi's tongue should knick ddd's foot in the air and he'll get regrabbed. Like I said, I've only been successful a couple times with it, but it's been proven that it exists and it's extremely difficult to do but it was worth mentioning anyway.
So, summary for people who don't like reading:
Aerials => Yoshi's advantage
Ground => DDD's advantage
Edge-guarding => Even
Camping => Yoshi's advantage
Edge-camping => DDD's advantage
Grabs => DDD's advantage
Smashes (though not mentioned up there) => Yoshi's advantage
Tilts => Even
Well, that's all the info I can think of right now. If any of you have any direct questions about Yoshi, you can private message me and I'll get back to you. I've had LOTS of experience playing against a ddd so I'm sure I can offer helpful advice on what ddd should do and watch out for in certain situations.
i found bwett, Mmac and the_yoshinator really long write up while looking up some old threads
bwett1]Alright said:
(3.25) JIGGLYPUFF[/color]
DIFFICULTY: EASY – 60:40
PRO OPINION: EASY – 65:35 (CO18, Seibrik)
CHAINGRAB: NO
"Jiggs is so broken, all she has to do is press downB to win."
- Scar[/center]
OH SH*T IT'S THE JIGGERNAUT B*TCH! Jiggs just got out that Pokeball and just f*cked a Mudkip and done f*cked around and caught the Pokevirus but it's cool cause now Jiggs got all his EVs and IVs maxed out CAUSE I'M THE JIGGERNAUT B*TCH!
Ok enough of that.
I have a mild amount of experience against a Jiggs of questionable skill (He plays Jiggs about as well as I play Ganon) so I guess I can say a couple things on the matchup.
Dedede can get out of the WoP with his UpB's super armor if he times it right, but a good Jiggs player can probably time it so Dedede won't have time to do so. I have a hard time grabbing Jiggs because she's in the air so much and basically spends most of her time poking me with bair and such. On top of that she's so floaty that often times I won't be able to techchase her since she'll just jump out of it lol (but it's ok because fresh bthrow does 16-17% which is like 1/5 of the amount needed to kill Jiggs with utilt). Jiggs has a ton of range on her aerials which when combined with her air speed makes her even harder to grab than Wario sometimes. I'm not sure whose aerials beat whose but I think Dedede's bair has more priority than Jiggs' aerials. If Jiggs gets Dedede in the air she can juggle him pretty well with uairs for some good damage but she doesn't really have anything to follow them up with that I know of (Rest maybe? lol).
Rest is actually pretty bad on Dedede since it doesn't really kill him until well over 100%. At the same time though I can't think of any better kill moves Jiggs has lol. Another important thing to note is that if Jiggs misses a rest, Dedede should charge an Fsmash which, if it gets charged fully, can kill Mario at 17% (This means that Jiggs can be killed at like, idk, 4% with really good DI). In fact, because Dedede is so heavy and powerful, if Jiggs don't kill him with rest he can come back down charging Jet Hammer in the air and hit her with it while she's sleeping to take a stock off.
One more thing: Dedede must cancel his upB before he lands it or else Jiggs will be able to rest him out of it.
Dedede is so imbalanced, lol. He has the tools to beat Snake, but has such glaring flaws(he's practically the epitome of easy combos) that even Jiggly can effectively exploit them.
From a Dedede player's perspective:
Jiggly is really annoying. Jiggly's fast air speed vs. D3's slow air speed is a very bad combination. Otherwise, you have the range and power advantage here, use it the best way you can. Bair is godly here, as is utilt. Even without the CG, D3's grab is still a major asset for him. It's a battle for spacing, and D3's great defense game should be used to its fullest. Shieldgrab and bair are what it really boils down to.
Good Stages:
Final Destination, Smashville, Halberd, Rainbow Cruise
Bad Stages:
Battlefield, Brinstar, Jungle Japes, Pictochat
As far as stages go, Jiggs wants to avoid ceilings with low stages like Halberd and take Dedede to places with plenty of platforms like Battlefield, Brinstar, and Norfair (if it's legal) or places with big ceilings like Jungle Japes and Pictochat.
(3.26) WOLF
DIFFICULTY: EASY – 65:35
PRO OPINION: ???
CHAINGRAB: YES (Normal CG and Ledge Infinite)
Wolf vs Dedede is strongly in dededes favor and its probably wolfs worst matchup. Even without the weird chaingrab he does to wolf its still in dededes favor. Dedede can like chaingrab to the edge, edgehog and then after wolf tries to recover just grab him and chaingrab him to the other edge.
This is probably like[...]more in dededes favor if he knows how to do the grab thing. Dededes also heavier and racks up damage faster than wolf and kills earlier than wolf.
DeDeDe's bair usually clashes with wolf's, or at least for me. My spacing is far from perfect though. The main issues I have are the cg and bair. Unless the wolf has near perfect spacing, a good DeDeDe will shieldgrab and ensue cg to edgeguarding ****, which sucks. Wolf has few really safe moves to begin with, so getting that grab on most wolves won't be that hard. Bair eats wolf's recovery like sonic mains eat steak, so yeah, that's not good for wolf. Just get him offstage and harass him to no end. Once he's back on, get a grab, or just play keepaway.
Wolf, uhhh..... he has a laser. Yeah. Refreshes dsmash when it hits waddle dees, and it's slightly difficult for the D3 to get around if they don't know how easy it is to powershield. He can't kill better than DeDeDe (hate utilt), can't edgeguard better, MAYBE equal damage output? Yeah this is a bad matchup.
@kimchi, DDD does not need to kill Ike. He gimps him well enough. Course when it comes to killing, DDD is at a disadvantage since his utilt is too short ranged to hit a spacing Ike. And I think DDD's smashes are slower than Ikes o_o (at least pre lag is)
Ike can't space nair since DDD's grab range exceeds it. So Ike can only use fair and jab safety but he has to be spacing fair to the max.
Now the simply strategy of CG > gimp works... on noob Ikes. You actually have to THINK how to gimp Ike since he CAN do something about it.
Sometimes during the CG if you just keep dthrow only Ike will slide and grab the ledge. (Although I think you can ftilt before he grabs it, I don't remember well enough since I don't go Ike vs DDD much)
Anyways, Ike is off stage, you are gonna gimp him. If you go out too early, Ike will fair you before you get to him. Ike can only do one aerial when recovering so you have to avoid it then bair him and he's gone. But, Ike can also UAIR to stop you. Not only will it stop a bair, it will stop an AD > bair since it lasts longer than ADs. The 3rd thing is Ike aethers RIGHT AWAY not giving you time to go and bair him.
Oh and just fsmash aether, you'll even sweetspot it.
The thing about DDD though, he's PRIME spiking material for Ike once DDD is offstage and recovering. walk off dairs and dtilt pretty much get the job done. And if DDD uses Up B Ike can easily do some major damage. if DDD ends up landing on a platform, he's gonna get fsmashed.
And platforms help with this match up for Ike.
So yea, I think its 65-35 since Ike can space and spike DDD easily. Heck thanks to stage striking, I think it can become a 60-40 match up with platforms and slants (if not BF) with Ike's strikes being FD and SV to avoid long flat surfaces.
DIFFICULTY: VERY EASY - 70:30
PRO OPINION: SHOW ME YO MOVES!
CHAINGRAB: YES! (Normal CG)
I couldn't find any good quotes for this, but does anyone really care? Just don't get knee'd and don't get stagespiked by his upB.
Also, there is a special AT that was developed specifically for use against Captain Falcon.
In order to do it, Falcon needs to be between 0% and 20% and Dedede needs to be at least a stock ahead with less than 45% damage and must not have used Inhale the entire match. In order to perform it, first grab release Falcon and force a pummel break, then do an autocancelled fair -> dair, crossup with bair, pivot grab into another pummel break, wavedash behind him, shffl a nair, grab the Smash Ball, then turn around to get a charge (if you whiff the combo you can still do a Wall Dive), throw a Gordo (and it MUST be a Gordo), approach with Psycho Crusher, FADC a kara Tiger Uppercut, hit him with all hits of Sakura Otoshi, juggle with EX Yoga Flame, and while he's getting up press LP LP F LK HP. You'll either do the Dedede Punch or brick the Wii you're playing on. Or both.
(3.29) LUIGI
DIFFICULTY: With Infinite Chaingrab: VERY EASY - 75:25 Without Infinite Chaingrab: EVEN - 55:45
PRO OPINION: ???
CHAINGRAB: YES (Normal CG, Infinite CG)
My other quick 2 cents. What i like to do is, bait D3's shield out. Make him hold it out enough for us to shield poke it. Nair preferablely. Dair/upairs work for shield poking too. Whenever D3 is on a platform, he gets like pressured like mad eats at least 60%~ and/or could result to a jabupb. Crawldashing can be a easily way to bait out D3 since they tend to put up their shield the minute luigi approachs.
All in all, it should be really a campfest. Anyone who loses patience (luigi gets hurt slightly more by this) should be eating tons of stocks for dinner. If luigi approachs, he gets shield grabbed. If D3 approachs, he'll get eatened by oos options. Back in the day, I've used to play gay as possible by camping with fireballs, and D3s would just camp with side b until I got hit by a gordo (which i hate btw >_>).
As for Kor's post, Luigi is probably best char who can actually put up a fight out of the infinite'd characters. Assuming WITHOUT the perfect frame CG, and assuming WITH the standing infinite, imo it changes the gist of the battle. Luigi has to be extra careful and has to space like a mad person. Buffered spaced Bairs is probably his best bet. Once he gets D3 on the air, he needs to keep D3 in the air as much as possible while D3 needs to get to the ground asap.
I don't really have time to do a large write up of this matchup, but i do have a lot of experience in it sooooo. Both Luigi and D3 have very good moves that can punish and kill quickly. Don't underestimate luigi's killing power or you'll end up dieing at like 80. Luigi's Fsmash,Usmash, and up b can all kill at relatively low percentages. When the match first starts i usually just walk away from luigi and he does the same, because as previously stated the person who approaches first usually gets *****. Do not get grabbed at 0 by luigi. A good luigi can combo with dthrow for about 45 percent maybe even more. One thing i cannot stress enough is never keep your shield up too long. Luigi is very good at shield pressure and jab pokes can end up with you dying off the top from an up b. Racking up damage with the cg is always a good idea, but if you're not sure if you can do it perfectly DON'T RISK IT just do a few bthrows and fthrows. Killing luigi isn't too hard they all love approaching from the air so just space yourself and wait for a utilt oppurtunity. I don't find myself killing luigi with dsmash very often mostly because it's very slow and luigi would probably sh nair before it even comes out. The thing that keeps this matchup from being in luigi's favor is the fact that we edge guard him so well. When luigi is offstage grab the ledge and be quick to start throwing out bairs. His side b can't do anything against it and once he losses his jump he'll be using side b until he either dies or gets a missfire *sucks*. If he missfires and it hits you just tech the stage, and commence the bairs. When he gets in kill percent try to sweetspot a bair or just throw in a fair and he should die. A lot of luigi's like to approach with tornado which can be a problem because it eats shields. Just hold your shield and grab when he's done, if he's too far out just ftilt and continue your defensive play.
hey looks like i did have time for a large write up
Alright, I was informed that you guys are starting your discussion on Link (http://allisbrawl.com/forum/topic.aspx?id=90823), so I guess I'll start despite the fact that you haven't announced you are on to Link yet.
D3 is one of Link's top 2 worst matchups, if not THE worst. CG to fthrow+bair gimping, or just CG to bair gimp, will destroy Link.
Just ban Battlefield or Norfair against Link (preferably Battlefield, it has smaller platforms so less CG'ing), because that is the only stage where Link has a slim chance of winning. On Battlefield Link will jump from platform to platform bombing you, although if you predict well it will be easy to dodge the spam. Just jump up and bair/nair him. You can utilt as well, although don't expect to finish Link off with it.
Really, no damage racking is necessary unless you want to do the fthrow gimp; just get him in the CG and bair gimp him.
85:15 or 90:10 D3's favor. Links only chance is on Norfair or Battlefield. D3 is good at doing the only two things that Link mains really fear: getting him offstage, and gimping him.
As a side note, D3's Waddle Dees, Doos, and Gordos cancel out all of Links projectiles, forcing Link to FH to throw them if he wants a chance of hitting D3. Link is just too slow to run away from D3, and his projectile game is useless. Have fun, joke around, let Link get 150% damage on you on your last stock, then just CG all three stocks away.
Have fun D3 mains.
Don't worry about damaging him, your goal in life is to get him offstage. D throw sends him nice and low(though you can also just let him jump break from a grab, it works very nicely because he can't recover too low if you do that) and WOP with bair or fair, I recommend bair because his fair is actually quite strong and can stage spike you so you want to hit him first. A simple WOP will destroy him. This makes the matchup nearly unwinnable for the Link player, and it's all you should be doing. CG to the edge, d throw, then follow up.
EDIT: You may not want to use D throw because I think Link can use his tether recovery the moment you D throw him and he will make it back that way.
If you D throw us off the edge, we can indeed tether after a short period of hitstun. You can just walk lazily offstage, bair towards the stage as we try desperately to retract to the ledge, and stagespike us.
There is no excuse for D3 to not kill Link once he is offstage.
Btw, bombs going off will save Link's butt about 25% of the time. The rest of the time it won't make a difference for you D3 mains.
The only redeeming factor Link has is his bombs on Battlefield or Norfair. Ban Battlefield, and expect that Link won't do any good on Norfair anyways, and follow the instructions given at :20 in this vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lltHMlOoZi0
90:10 D3.
Link can be a nuisance if he spaces the 2 hitboxed, 10% zair. I assume some good links will have a bomb in hand and shorthop air dodge zair a few times, and then finally throw the bomb. Link can do triple canceled and double canceled arrows if he wants to camp for minimal time before the D3 perfect shields --> grab ->win
NOTE: All tethers can be used three times only (3 snaps to the ledge). In this case, hookshot the ledge 3x
After that they can no longer tether UNTIL they touch the stage
D tilt can shield stab, but overall easy move to punish (shield grab). Smart links will know how to use the boomerangs reverse suction affects and air push aways effectively so watch out for that.
Watch out for links boosted up smash ( 3 hits and knocks you into the air which may or may not be a bad thing. Just watch out for links up air, if you air dodge, it WILL go to waste, and you WILL get hit by his up air. )
Link also has some good jab follow ups. The first two slashes come out fast and can lead into a down smash, grab, f tilt, and much more
Respect links bombs, they are dangerous, just chain grab and edge guard accordingly. After chain grabs, links, most likely, will use there second jump accordingly to snap to the ledge. Some may zair quick to snag the ledge, which you can counter with a fast fall bair. And others may not have second jumps at that point and will Up B. Down tilt, BAIR to edge guard. If you presume link is going to do an up B, it has a weird angle and may out space your bair, so get underneath and slam him with the top part a fair.
Against passive links, inhaling them after they used their second jump and spitting them out will prove to be effective due to links horrible recovery. Inhale --> drop off the stage ---> fall ---> keep falling...(don't worry you can recover...and he can't xD) --> spit him out...mash the jump button so you don't touch the death pit...and you're golden...link is dead..and you've recovered.
If there are anymore concerns with this matchup, I will be more than happy to add more, but for now, this matchup doesn't seem to be posing a threat, even to Dededes that don't use Dedede.
DIFFICULTY: VERY EASY - 75:25
PRO OPINION: THAT OLD GANON'S NO MATCH FOR THE KING!
CHAINGRAB: YES (Normal CG)
A lot of Ganon mains think this matchup is "not that bad" for Ganon. However, for them "not that bad" means 70:30 in the opponent's favor, considering they have other matchups that are literally unwinnable (namely Ice Climbers and Shiek).
70:30 in D3's favor, my worst match-up personally. However, a grab is NOT a stock, that's a plain ridiculous assumption. D3 and Ganon have about equal range with Ganon's dtilt (which he CAN use to stay out of D3's grab range). In the air, good spacing can make either win (D3's dair works pretty well against Ganon, Ganon's uair and bair work pretty well against D3). D3 can be combo'd wicked easily, and D3... chaingrabs.
D3 can use a side-b, but can't use it as a bait. Ganondorf can just smack those *****es away any time he likes. Flame Choke works wonders on a dumb D3, if they whiff an aerial that's 21% garanteed, then another uair can easily be chained in. At low percents you can even do flame choke and 2 dtilts, it's ballin'
On the other hand, D3 has Z+Down.
That's all that needs to be said, really. Yeah, you can chaingrab us. Yeah, it does hurt. No, it's not a stock. It's still annoying as hell though.
A Ganondorf player can win by getting D3 up in the air as much as possible, use flame chokes to punish and add damage and go for a good dair or fair (reverse uair isn't as good against D3).
A D3 player can win with side+B to camp and down+Z to gay.
Lol D3 Vs Bowser without infinite is 6:4 D3 Max. Ive played this matchup ALOT from both ways when I
2nded Bowser. Bowser shouldn't be getting grabbed that much, hes also got a cg to grab release stuff, He can kill early, can actually edgeguard D3 pretty well if your smart. Side b ***** in this matchup. Bowser just has to be smart but its definitley not worse than 6:4 without the infnite. Im pretty sure Vex even thinks its even but Ima call 6:4 without infinite. 100:0 with(like every matchup with the infnite is lol)
Dedede can infinite Bowser at the edge so yea basically one grab is still death.
D3 vs bowser is pretty one sided. D3 obviously has the upper hand with the infinite, it isn't even worth the discussion and since I don't do infinites unless it's a wall one I will discuss this without the infinite in mind.
Now to start this, D3 outranges bowser in the air and on the ground, thats already a immediate disadvantage. D3s ftilt has more range than all of bowser ground moves and can't be punished on shield while bair is pretty dominant in the air, the only aerial I question that it doesn't outprioritize is fair but my disc is broken right now so I can't test it. D3s dair outranges bowsers upair and same with d3s upair and bowsers dair.
Bowser has a hard time approaching dedede as he outranges him completely on the ground so thats out of the option, one of bowsers only approaches is his klaw and even then is pretty bad as d3 can simply just bair it. The best thing about this is that D3s waddle dees n doos force him to approach.
Then D3 also has the CG which he can choose to end with a dtilt or a bthrow which makes this matchup even more dumb. One thing saving this matchup for bowser are his grab releases, mainly to fair which can put bowser in a good position depending on how far d3 gets knocked back, if d3 is knocked offstage, bowser has the control and can force d3 to use his upb and punish accordingly. But the d3 would have to screw up for bowser to even get close enough to grab. Fair, klaw, and upb have their own merits in this matchup but even with them, it's still in d3s favor by a good amount, I just felt like going into the grab release more as it's less known what it can do.
Overall I think the matchup is 75:25 in D3s favor without the infinite, with the infinite it's most likely 90:10.
Keep in mind this is all my opinion and that I do not have the means right now to test some of this.
Uh..What's the point? You have the infinite, that ruins the matchup for DK. 99-1 infinite *****.
Without infinite it's probably 6-4 D3 because you still have the dashgrab CG which deals ridiculous damage(B throw too..).
Without the CG it's probably 65-35 DK advantage to be honest.
DK isn't too hard to grab but he can make himself a real ***** to grab. This is why he beats ICs. DownB beats your whole ground game, and Ftilt isn't safe because he can up B and shieldpoke you. It's extremely safe, actually, and if you don't shield, good luck with that, because the super armor will absorb your hit if you try to interrupt it. It deals 37% damage if all hits connect. He can also cancel it on a ledge for that perfect unpunishability(and don't get me started on japes..)
Basically, without the infinite you're going to want to CG him all game then U tilt or bair to kill. His bair is better than yours, it has more range and it has very little landing lag, so he can land with it for spacing unlike you.
If you take his first stock, CG him to get him offstage then swallowcide as he returns. DK's recovery goes the same way every time, take advantage of that. I tell you this because there's no way in hell I'm facing D3 as a character that's easily chaingrabbed.
Also, don't face his back in the air, you won't win. You're his toy in the air, you're much better off on the ground, fortifying your defenses. To kill you, he will use punch or F smash, both of which kill you pretty nicely. At the side of a stage, F smash will take care of you at 90%, maybe 70% with bad or no DI. Powershield this move and you've a free grab. Otherwise, I'm pretty sure it's safe on block.
Punch kills a bit later but it comes out a lot faster, can be used in the air oh and it has super armor, so if DK has a punch stored you want to bait it before you try any kill moves.
So..Just do the crap you always do. Camp with your projectile, shieldgrab any aerial approaches, though any good DK won't choose DK or will be extremely careful not to get grabbed, so you may have to..hey, just camp some more. Your only problem is if he's ledge canceling up Bs and getting past your projectiles with the super armor because then you can't grab him and you get rocked. If he does this a lot, you can dashgrab him to interrupt the up B.
If you're playing without the CG..Well, good luck LOL. Your only shred of sophistication in a real fight with DK is F tilt.
As for stages, choose Delfino for the walkoffs and wall infinites. Don't go cruise, because he has wall infinites too and one grab from him leads to them with cargo plus he loves the close blast zones more than you do with his insane killing power.
Ban Luigi's or Japes, idk, you probably won't win on either without the infinite. You're better off on Japes because you can Dthrow him into the klap trap plus you can camp the middle platform if you're smart.
To be honest the infinite doesn't make a lot of difference, very little in fact. It is extremely easy to get out of the infinite until Mario is already in KO range (120% or so). So in actuality the ratio change is very minimal.
The main problem that Mario has against DeDeDe is that he doesn't have alot of options. All he can do is camp and camp alot. He has to work extremely hard to not get grabbed, and matches like these will take a very long time. With that taken into account, a camping Mario will not be approaching. He'll be baiting DeDeDe to approach. An approaching D3 will give Mario alot of counter options.
Mario's Air game > DeDeDe airgame. DeDeDe is extremely combo-able if Mario gets inside.
DeDeDe's ground game >>> Mario's ground game. It's literally no contest here. Any ground game work from Mario here will be used to get DeDeDe in the air.
DeDeDe is not difficult to gimp, but a good DeDeDe won't let it be easy.
This matchup is 70:30 DeDeDe, both with and without infinite. I would go more towards Mario's favor, but I myself haven't fought a great DeDeDe player that I could test my camp game against.
We have a few tools here and there to avoid grabs, but this matchup is pretty much D3's with and without the infinite. Like Hero mentioned, mashing out is an option at certain percentages, but never should be relied upon. It's more of a last resort in the event that we ARE grabbed rather than a defense against it. Something rather important and another reason to be frame-perfect. Mario's upB comes out faster than Marth's IIRC, so keep that in mind.
As far as gimping goes, you generally haven't got much to worry about. We have a few methods of taking your jumps but most of them are rendered unsafe offstage because of suck and your high range/priority on both Fair and Bair. If you're forced to upB or do so prematurely, however, Mario's cape CAN reverse your direction and Fludd CAN push you from the ledge if you cancel it too early. Mix up your recovery to prevent this, and generally don't upB unless it's your only option. Be aware of the threat Mario presents offstage, and you should be okay. Fireballs are the only things that Mario can really safely do to edgeguard before you upB.
As far as gimping US, you have the luxury of having an attack that beats our upB; your Bair. THIS would probably be a good time to fastfall that Bair if your timing is right. The trajectory at which it knocks Mario with undoubtedly gimp him if he has no DJ. If Mario times his upB on the invincibility frames, however, it can beat bair and potentially stagespike if the circumstances are right. In the event that this happens, you probably won't die unless you're high %, but you MAY need to use your upB to recover. Do so with caution. Inhale is also hell to deal with offstage for Mario, so keep that in mind.
Onstage, Mario can lay on pretty thick shield pressure with Dair and can't be shieldgrabbed till the last hit and can be autocancelled behind D3's shield or DJ'd out of. Not COMPLETELY safe, but a great tool vs D3 in particular to thwart grabs more often than not. Cape suffers no shield stun and can be used to bait grabs -> Stutterstepped Fsmash. Just be wary of this. D3's weight is a huge adv in this matchup, so don't forfeit it by being too aggressive with shieldgrabs.
Why would anybody seriously shield if a D3 is using inhale? That's just stupid. chances are you would fireball an inhale and we would use our OOS options as a counterattack to something.
First opinion, with infinite the MU is 70:30 D3 because we can do things to stop getting grabbed and release at lower percents. I think that is reasonable. Also its banned in like every tourney. Also I'm not good at talking from another characters point of view so I will be speaking from a Mario's.
Like all heavy characters, Mario has an advantage of being able to do a lot of damage from combos once he gets in and DDD is no exception. The difference between him and other heavy characters is that he can camp very well, has a lot of range and projectile to try and get us out (his ftilt is amazing), and a good recovery that isnt easy to gimp. Of course, D3 has the chaingrab and the infinite, which gives hims a definite advantage imo along with his heavy weight, and being able to kill at low percents. Chaingrab alone doesnt win the match because the D3 will get highly predictable. Playing aggressive is highly risky, so play defensively until you can get inside. D3's bair is dumb. Although low range for a D3 move, it has extremely high priority, very fast, low lag, and lasts long. It can be hit out i Just dont attack his feet if you plan to hit him out of it. Its risky to try and counter that anyways. As for his grab, I know most people when going against D3 will say "avoid being grabbed," but its not easy. His grab range makes you go WTF. His normal grab range outranges your jab and the distance he gets from rolling to attempt a grab is about as big as D3's body, and he is one fat penguin. So chances are Mario will get grabbed every now and then. Mario does have things to stop it from happening so often. Some options are fireballs, FLUDD, or just make sure you space extremely well. If you can land behind him and auto cancel an aerial that could work. Of course he can kill you at much lower percents and it takes us a while. Most of D3's kill moves you can see coming. Watch out for his Utilt. Its his best kill move and very quick. The only kill moves Mario will have against D3 is Fsmash and Dsmash (which might be stale because it is used to get people off) because Usmash will not kill D3. Basically, D3 should either force an approach by outcamping or put a lot of pressure on the opponent. As a Mario, ease some of the pressure and be unpredictable and it shouldn't be too bad. I think its 60:40 D3 w/o infinite. I guess according to your boards, Mario is easy since 60:40 is considered easy, but a good Mario will not have it be so easy.
Samus has zair a missles which COULD collect a nice load of % on ddd. That is, untill they learn to power shield and approach. Once this happens they can CG across FD and throw for like 40-50% damage. This take 10 homing missles or 12 zairs to catch up to that massive amount of damage. Sure, we could try and F/D/U smash but it doesnt matter, your grabs are fast and long and if we mess up JUST ONCE....BOOOM 40-50% damage. THE ONLY THING WE CAN DO is weaken your shield slightly and then do a falling U-air to UP+B but even then thats on 11-14% damage. And even then, thats assuming u dont see it coming and uptilt.
DDD vs SAMUS= 100-0 in DDD favor with ICG.
Samus is part of the sad 6. You can infinite us(even thought u gotta pummel ever 4-5 grabs) till what ever you feel like then back throw for easy KOs. There is no hope and its 100% unwinnable for Samus. That is why i ban that tech at all of my events and try and get his ICG banned at each event i attend. It makes an already near impossible match-up, impossible.
Please be merciful. This is my opinion and some of my views on the matchup lol.
Dedede vs Samus matchup
Okay, first thing is first, Dedede can infinite and normal chain grab Samus like crazy. When up against Samus, the Waddle Dees and Doos can provide as a shield to all of Samus' projectiles when she is on the ground. So basically, the only thing you may need to worry about is Samus' grapple beam(or Z button attack) when she is in the air. Samus really doesnt have the potential to KO a heavy with brute strength. Most Samus mains try to KO with a spike or use projectiles while you are off stage. Dedede can just chain grab her to the edge and back air till she is far enough to not come back to the stage. Hmm...what else? Im not sure how early Dedede can KO Samus, but probably around 80%-90% give or take. So yeah, if im wrong about anything just tell me. I tested all of this so im sure there wont be alot of changes.
Also some counterpicks......yeah......not sure lol.
Rainbow Cruise- Lots of space for Dedede to exploit his recovery. The walls are very close for Dedede to KO Samus early.
Jungle Japes-Ahh yes, Japes. People counterpick this just to avoid the up tilt KO, but then there is the water. With Samus' recovery, this would make somewhat of a perfect counterpick(opinion). I mean throw Samus in the water on the left side and she is pretty much not coming back.
DIFFICULTY: ******** - 50:75
PRO OPINION: DON'T EVER PLAY THIS MATCHUP - EVER (Atomsk, CO18, lain, Seibrik)
CHAINGRAB: YES (Normal CG and Ledge Infinite)
Instead of writing a true summary, I decided to just pull a bunch of the best quotes from our discussion and post them. Enjoy.
There comes a time within everyones smash career where they must face their greatest fear, themselves. As cliché as it sounds, that's exactly what this match up consists of. Stay in the air at all times, as one grab in the hands of an experienced DeDeDe main means the loss of a stock, so three grabs means game. Full hop down airs applies great shield pressure due to how large the king is, but your going to want to utilize every one of your jumps in an attempt to evade his mittens. Learn the timing of D3's infinite on himself, just in case you find yourself being death grabbed by your opponent so you can fight fire with fire. As said in all of my previous summaries, spacing is key in this match up, edge guard with back airs, but be cautious of regicides, and don't get grabbed. In all honesty, D3 dittos do not have a whole lot of depth to them, if any. They don't determine who is the better player, just who knows this particular match up more. Really, you should just avoid this fight if you can, it's extremely boring.
Random Info:
Jet hammer wrecks high up B recoveries.
You can grab high up B recoveries.
If you predict or force a high up B recovery, it's a free forward smash.
Ugh, just watch this set. It's a video of CO18 and Seibrik playing, this basically sums up every thing in a nutshell.
I'd say it's a random chance of winning or losing. You may have the better Dedede, but the other guy can pull a random gordo and poof, there goes your stock. If you're really unlucky it'll happen three times in one match (has happened to me before, on more than one occasion). You can also get Jet hammered or Fsmashed if you're not careful, each will most likely take off a stock if they hit.
Honestly I don't think we can talk much about this matchup.
Main thing is: Make sure you are the one who gets the grabs, which actually means: spacing determines the winner.
But seriously, i doubt i'm ever gonna play a D3 ditto if anything serious is on the line, i'll just go MK and spam tornado first stock and then run for 7 minutes.
I never, ever play DDD dittos at tournaments. I actually scout out to see if there are any other DDD's and if there are, I remember them and CP Olimar just because I won't infinite. Call me a scrub. I've beaten some good DDD's in tourney without infiniting while they were desperately trying to grab me, but all in all it's a headache I don't want to endure.
Basically, an infinite grabbing DDD beats a non-infinite 90-10. If your opponent is strictly of the "play to win" mentality (and doesn't use metaknight lolol) and you don't and you know it, you should prooobably counterpick. Otherwise, DON'T GET GRABBED.
EDIT - Might as well give some anecdotal support.
I beat Kaiser's DDD with my own while he was going for the infinite and I wasn't. It was a really close match, but I pulled it out. It was my first tournament and naive as I was, I decided to CP Pit, lost, then CP Lucas and lost.
Point being, if your DDD can beat ANOTHER DDD, FOR GOD'S SAKE DON'T CHANGE.
Reserved for editing.
9/4/08 - Created thread, Metaknight discussion begins.
9/11/08 - Discussion of Snake begins.
9/16/08 - Minor reformatting, added PinkPwnageFrenzy's chaingrab technique guide to "supplemental material".
9/18/08 - Discussion of Mr. Game & Watch begins.
9/20/08 - Snake summary posted.
9/26/08 - Game & Watch summary posted, minor reformatting, discussion of Falco begins.
10/3/08 - Discussion of Ice Climbers begins.
10/7/08 - Falco summary posted.
10/10/08 - Pikachu discussion begins.
10/17/08 - Marth discussion begins.
10/24/08 - Olimar discussion begins.
10/31/08 - Diddy Kong discussion begins.
11/7/08 - ROB Discussion begins.
11/9/08 - Added Buuman's CG Formula thread to references, changed index of matchups from by week to by difficulty, minor aesthetic changes.
11/14/08 - Kirby discussion begins, minor changes.
11/21/08 - Lucario discussion begins.
11/28/08 - Pit discussion begins.
12/5/08 - Zelda/Sheik discussion begins.
12/19/08 - Peach discussion begins.
12/26/08 - Fox discussion begins.
1/2/09 - ZSS discussion begins.
1/5/09 - Re-ordered in accordance with new tier list.
1/9/09 - Toon Link discussion begins.
1/16/09 - King Dedede discussion begins.
1/19/09 - Ice Climbers summary posted.
1/23/09 - King Dedede "summary" posted, discussion of Wario begins.
1/30/09 - Wolf discussion begins.
2/1/09 - I got tired of linking to threads in this thread, so instead I created a directory thread to link to.
2/6/09 - Ness discussion begins
2/13/09 - Pokemon Trainer discussion begins.
2/15/09 - zomg sticky <3
2/20/09 - Yoshi discussion begins, list for re-discussion added.
2/27/09 - Jigglypuff discussion begins.
3/6/09 - Lucas discussion begins.
3/14/09 - Ike discussion begins.
3/15/09 - MAJOR reformatting.
3/20/09 - MK rediscussion begins.
3/27/09 - Kirby rediscussion begins.
4/1/09 - Gates makes a funny.
4/4/09 - Mr. Game & Watch rediscussion begins.
4/11/09 - Falco rediscussion begins.
4/18/09 - Diddy Kong rediscussion begins.
4/25/09 - Peach and Zero Suit Samus rediscussions begin.
5/9/09 - Sonic discussion begins, "Easy Win Week" removed.
5/16/09 - Donkey Kong discussion begins.
5/23/09 - Luigi discussion begins.
5/29/09 - Jigglypuff summary posted.
5/30/09 - Link discussion begins.
6/4/09 - Link Summary posted, Ganon discussion begins, Turbo mode activated.
6/5/09 - Re-ordered in accordance with new tier list.
6/7/09 - Mario discussion begins.
6/10/09 - Samus discussion begins. 6/16/09 - ALL MATCHUPS NOW COVERED
2/6/10 - I'm turning control of this thread over to Serin since I no longer play Smash and nobody else wants to run it.
Nice job, I like it
D3's my secondary, so I can help get this thread started.
Against MK's Tornado, you'll want to use your B-air or U-tilt; they're both very effective if used correctly and will usually catch the MK off-guard. Also, your F-tilt is great for spacing against MK's approach.
If anyone notices anything incorrect about this post, please point it out. Sorry, DDD's just my secondary
I believe that the Dtilt can only stop a grounded Nado but I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure there is some restriction on it though since it doesn't always seem to work. There's also inhale but that's not very reliable.
Vertical kills are the way to go with MK, since he is light and difficult to kill horizontally. DeDeDe can vert kill pretty well with Utilt, Usmash, and to a lesser extent Dsmash. I find alot of those difficult to land on him though. If anyone has good set ups for them please let me know.
I also generally play a more grounded game against MK. You can't really compete with him in the air. Most of your tilts are pretty effective on him though.
Overall I find the matchup to be pretty close to even if not slightly in MK's favor. I feel its about 55/45. But that's just me.
I would've just respond with "F-tilt is great for spacing in general" but this is really more important than usual with MK, who has problems approaching characters with longer reach than him (**cough**Donkey Kong**cough**).
According to the anti-tornado list thread, Dsmash, Dair, and Waddle Dee Toss can also break the Tornado. Also, inhaling Metaknight when he's approaching can be good in this matchup to surprise him. This matchup is basically Dedede's defensive game pushed to the max.
I don't know an extraordinary amount about this match-up. Just posting what I know about both characters from my experience:
DDD:
-Bair > all of Meta's aerials (And glide attack)
-Dair > Shuttle Loop (If you predict it).
-Waddle spam is good for forcing approaches and surprise kills.
-DDD won't have much trouble getting MK into the danger zone-%
-DDD outranges MK (Learn to love the bair).
-Multijump mindgamezzz.
-Gets ***** by tornado unless you shield, hit MK perfectly with a bair, Dsmash, or Utilt.
-Dair is really, REALLY good at stopping MK from pursuing you from below.
-UTilt kills MK around 90%
-Inhale (Stops MK aggression and causes regicides)
-Can Tech-chase MK in place of a chaingrab.
-Deals huge damage against MK with grabs.
MK:
-Faster
-Faster attacks (MK can get shut out by bair tho)
-Tornado
-Pursues DDD offstage without as much fear as other characters.
-Can get DDD stuck in a combo quite easily.
-Multijump mindgamezzz.
-MK's aerial movement is actually pretty slow, so he has to be RRREEEEAAAAALLLLLLY careful on how he approaches DDD because DDD is way too good at punishing improper spacing and slip-ups. If MK slips he may not be able to maneuver his way out of punishment fast enough.
-MK can have some trouble killing DDD so he has to save his kill moves.
IMO in this match, DDD's defensive game will pose a great challenge to MK's offense. They both have so much going for them. If you ask me it's even, maybe slightly in Meta-Knight's favor.
I know that's true if you do it while you're in the Tornado but what about if you're not in it and you throw one at them as they're approaching with it? I'll have to look into that later.
EDIT: Not only is this true, Waddle Doo's eye beams won't even break him out of it. Kind of a scary thought.
I have alot of experience with this match up (there are alot of meta knights where I play).
This matchup is either 50:50 or 55:45 in favor of MK. MK can easily gimp Dedede's recovery if Dedede does not recover intelligently.
In this match up, what I find my self doing is alot of ftilt when when I feel like MK is going to dash grab. If MK comes in for a shuffled fair, if the spacing is off I just shield grab into back throw, if the spacing is perfect then I drop shield and dash grab into back throw. Fair is not a good move for Dedede to use in this matchup so i limit its usage. D smash goes through tornado every time, and randomly if I come down with suck on top of tornado, it works.
I love it when MK tornadoes me. Simple tactic people, have your shield full, block the whole thing, then punish...I will never understand why so many people QQ about it. If you feel your shield cant hold out, spot dodge the last bit of nado, I normally do this every time so I have an easier time punishing. If for some reason you cant shield, DI up and smash airdodge you should get out of it then fly over it...just be smart. For the glide attack...just shield grab into back throw.
Clearly, on the stage, Dedede goes even with MK. The kill move and recovery are the problems. The kill move should be (in my opinion) up tilt or d smash. The best way to get either of these moves off is if MK does a SH nair then its a simple kill, otherwise wait for an opening and punish with either move, be sure you know the proper spacing for each of these moves. And just to restate, Dsmash goes throw tornado.
Generally, do not be afraid to use f tilt, d tilt, bair, and suck. Suck up is a great mix up if the MK gets wise to the grab/bair game, or is trying to keep pressure on you, or you feel overwhelmed with momentum.
Recovering against MK can be tricky. NEVER up b above MK, you will get shuttle looped. If you have enough jumps, recover like Snake (jump to the top of the screen and use b-reversals/airdodge to get on the ground), or if you must use up B, use it quickly, and intelligently, but generally up B gets punished.
MK has alot vs Dedede. Nair -> ftilt combos easily and does about 30%. Down air above Dedede is hard to punish especially if they follow it with tornado (I would say try to tilt your shield up or try a retreating back air or just run away if MK is above you).
Spacing is the absolute deciding factor in this match. Good MK's will use alot of attacks that are outside of Dedede's grab range, so make sure to keep mixing up between suck, grab, bair, ftilt, etc. Retreating is absolutely necessary to basically regenerate your shield, because it is clearly a useful tool in this match. Retreating can temporarily trap (a stupid MK) into chasing. Mostly its used to establish control of the pace of the match.
Throwing waddles, to me, should only be intended to establish spacing and put MK at your pace. What I mean is slow him down with waddles, dont expect a hit, use them to space yourself and control the stage (think street fighter).
Good Stages: Pokemon stadium, FD (big stages where you have alot of room to retreat and space yourself)
Bad Stages: Rainbow Cruise, Smashville, BF
55:45 MK or 50:50 even.
Just play smart, there is little room for error, especially when trying to recover.
I have alot of experience with this match up (there are alot of meta knights where I play).
This matchup is either 50:50 or 55:45 in favor of MK. MK can easily gimp Dedede's recovery if Dedede does not recover intelligently.
In this match up, what I find my self doing is alot of ftilt when when I feel like MK is going to dash grab. If MK comes in for a shuffled fair, if the spacing is off I just shield grab into back throw, if the spacing is perfect then I drop shield and dash grab into back throw. Fair is not a good move for Dedede to use in this matchup so i limit its usage. D smash goes through tornado every time, and randomly if I come down with suck on top of tornado, it works.
I love it when MK tornadoes me. Simple tactic people, have your shield full, block the whole thing, then punish...I will never understand why so many people QQ about it. If you feel your shield cant hold out, spot dodge the last bit of nado, I normally do this every time so I have an easier time punishing. If for some reason you cant shield, DI up and smash airdodge you should get out of it then fly over it...just be smart. For the glide attack...just shield grab into back throw.
Clearly, on the stage, Dedede goes even with MK. The kill move and recovery are the problems. The kill move should be (in my opinion) up tilt or d smash. The best way to get either of these moves off is if MK does a SH nair then its a simple kill, otherwise wait for an opening and punish with either move, be sure you know the proper spacing for each of these moves. And just to restate, Dsmash goes throw tornado.
Generally, do not be afraid to use f tilt, d tilt, bair, and suck. Suck up is a great mix up if the MK gets wise to the grab/bair game, or is trying to keep pressure on you, or you feel overwhelmed with momentum.
Recovering against MK can be tricky. NEVER up b above MK, you will get shuttle looped. If you have enough jumps, recover like Snake (jump to the top of the screen and use b-reversals/airdodge to get on the ground), or if you must use up B, use it quickly, and intelligently, but generally up B gets punished.
MK has alot vs Dedede. Nair -> ftilt combos easily and does about 30%. Down air above Dedede is hard to punish especially if they follow it with tornado (I would say try to tilt your shield up or try a retreating back air or just run away if MK is above you).
Spacing is the absolute deciding factor in this match. Good MK's will use alot of attacks that are outside of Dedede's grab range, so make sure to keep mixing up between suck, grab, bair, ftilt, etc. Retreating is absolutely necessary to basically regenerate your shield, because it is clearly a useful tool in this match. Retreating can temporarily trap (a stupid MK) into chasing. Mostly its used to establish control of the pace of the match.
Throwing waddles, to me, should only be intended to establish spacing and put MK at your pace. What I mean is slow him down with waddles, dont expect a hit, use them to space yourself and control the stage (think street fighter).
Good Stages: Pokemon stadium, FD (big stages where you have alot of room to retreat and space yourself)
Bad Stages: Rainbow Cruise, Smashville, BF
55:45 MK or 50:50 even.
Just play smart, there is little room for error, especially when trying to recover.
A beautiful post sir. The only other thing I really have to add is that techchase to dash attack can kill MK very early. Other than that you pretty much summed it all up.
This isnt DDD's hottest matchup IMO. He can make MK approach thank goodness. Tornado is near impossible to get out of with ddd due to his weight. And tornado goes right through waddles. DDD can kill mk unbelievably early. Utilt is my favorite killing move. Although DDD is one of the better edgeguarders. bad idea vs MK. He will out prioritze you will shuttle loop, and he can send you backwards off the screen. He can always tornado in midair too. I'd say 4:6 DDD disadvantage.
I have alot of experience with this match up (there are alot of meta knights where I play).
This matchup is either 50:50 or 55:45 in favor of MK. MK can easily gimp Dedede's recovery if Dedede does not recover intelligently.
In this match up, what I find my self doing is alot of ftilt when when I feel like MK is going to dash grab. If MK comes in for a shuffled fair, if the spacing is off I just shield grab into back throw, if the spacing is perfect then I drop shield and dash grab into back throw. Fair is not a good move for Dedede to use in this matchup so i limit its usage. D smash goes through tornado every time, and randomly if I come down with suck on top of tornado, it works.
I love it when MK tornadoes me. Simple tactic people, have your shield full, block the whole thing, then punish...I will never understand why so many people QQ about it. If you feel your shield cant hold out, spot dodge the last bit of nado, I normally do this every time so I have an easier time punishing. If for some reason you cant shield, DI up and smash airdodge you should get out of it then fly over it...just be smart. For the glide attack...just shield grab into back throw.
Clearly, on the stage, Dedede goes even with MK. The kill move and recovery are the problems. The kill move should be (in my opinion) up tilt or d smash. The best way to get either of these moves off is if MK does a SH nair then its a simple kill, otherwise wait for an opening and punish with either move, be sure you know the proper spacing for each of these moves. And just to restate, Dsmash goes throw tornado.
Generally, do not be afraid to use f tilt, d tilt, bair, and suck. Suck up is a great mix up if the MK gets wise to the grab/bair game, or is trying to keep pressure on you, or you feel overwhelmed with momentum.
Recovering against MK can be tricky. NEVER up b above MK, you will get shuttle looped. If you have enough jumps, recover like Snake (jump to the top of the screen and use b-reversals/airdodge to get on the ground), or if you must use up B, use it quickly, and intelligently, but generally up B gets punished.
MK has alot vs Dedede. Nair -> ftilt combos easily and does about 30%. Down air above Dedede is hard to punish especially if they follow it with tornado (I would say try to tilt your shield up or try a retreating back air or just run away if MK is above you).
Spacing is the absolute deciding factor in this match. Good MK's will use alot of attacks that are outside of Dedede's grab range, so make sure to keep mixing up between suck, grab, bair, ftilt, etc. Retreating is absolutely necessary to basically regenerate your shield, because it is clearly a useful tool in this match. Retreating can temporarily trap (a stupid MK) into chasing. Mostly its used to establish control of the pace of the match.
Throwing waddles, to me, should only be intended to establish spacing and put MK at your pace. What I mean is slow him down with waddles, dont expect a hit, use them to space yourself and control the stage (think street fighter).
Good Stages: Pokemon stadium, FD (big stages where you have alot of room to retreat and space yourself)
Bad Stages: Rainbow Cruise, Smashville, BF
55:45 MK or 50:50 even.
Just play smart, there is little room for error, especially when trying to recover.
I no...
This is alot harder match up than people are saying IMO.
Like CO18 said or 70:30.
All DDD's moves have too much lag. Waddles are okayyy for forcing an aporoach but you gotta be careful as theres quite a bit of lag MK can and will take advantage of after the Waddle Dee is thrown (any character's lag against MK is too much ). Then, that darn shuttle loop is crazy. In a tourney I was sent off stage at 40% with that move. No one should kill DDD at 40%....
DDD loses 2 of his biggest advantages against MK, CGs and effective edge guarding.
The one pro I see DDD has is the chance of an early kill.
(BTW, CO18 I'm Thee Incubus from GameBattles, a DDD ya played if you remember )
From what I hear from talking to pro players, DDD clearly loses in this matchup.
So yeah, you can't CG MK. Sucks, cause DDD isn't really that good at comboing. MK is also one of those characters that doesn't get gimped easily, so basically this limits most kills DDD gets on MK to U-tilts.
And being a big target sucks when you're going against MK, because that makes you easy to shieldstab and hit, and MK really likes to attack as we all know.
I think the only reason why DDD placed above G&W is cause M2K somehow was able to 2stock every MK out there despite this matchup clearly being out of DDD's favor lol. I'd say 7/3 in favor of MK.
Dedede does very well against MK on the ground, keeping him at bay with ftilt, dtilt and punishing with utilt. The problems arise when you take into account, Metaknight can prdict these tilts and use his speed to close that gap before you can even throw out more than 1 or 2. As soon as DDD is off the ground he's in trouble, throwing out arials to push Meta back off in a desperate attempt to keep from being sent over the edge. If DDD goes over the edge at anything lower than mid-height, he has absolutely no business recovering against Metaknight. MK's arial game outclasses him so well he can be wall of pained to the outskirts and his UpB can be shuttle looped through on the way down, starting this edge guarding game all over again.
On DDD's side, he thankfully is very heavy and thus very hard to kill. If Metaknight is attempting a Wall of Pain and DDD sees it coming and knows he is in deep ****, he can try to use an Inhale suicide to simple take the stock with him and start over and square one (assuming he isn't behind a stock). DDD should stay grounded, use his tilts and his grabs to punish Meta's approaches. Shield Grabbing is excellent here thanks to a great range. Meta can be tech-chased with grabs and DDDs other throws can set up to Bairs, Uairs and Utilts respectively. Bair should be used more conservatively in this matchup due to metaknight's air mobility, but when the opportunity arrives it's a great move to smack him in the face with. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gumAwyzHW4w
This is not an impossible matchup for DDD, but it is by no means a favorable one. It is a classic battle of speed vs power. I put it at 6/4 for Metaknight in my opinion.
D3's best weapon in this match up is the down throw tech chase. It displaces meta and puts the pace on D3's back as opposed to letting meta run the show. Most important thing is keeping meta at a distance and saving that up tilt till you know it'll kill (meta has weak vertical KO). D3 has a lot of answers for Meta's stuff and I don't think this match up is nearly as hard as ANYONE makes it out to be.
In this matchup I'd prefer stages where your recovery is much less of an issue or with low ceilings to help you get that quick verticle KO. I like Yoshi's Island Brawl, Green Hill Zone, Corneria, Pokemon Stadium, Pictochat, and if it's allowed in the tournament Mario Circuit. I say two walk offs as the short blast zones allow for Dedede to utlize his shield grabbing to deadly extents and control the pace of the match. Pictochat can help you out a great deal with the random effects that will often ground Metaknight's air game and many of the "wall" effects can be hit through by Dedede much further than by Metaknight. If you had to ban a stage in this matchup I'd pick Green Greens or Luigi's Mansion.
Just so everyone knows, this week is probably gonna be pretty busy for me (job fairs tuesday and wednesday, job interview thursday, and I have to work the callout for one of my clubs at Purdue on Thursday) and I might not have time to write/complete the Metaknight summary until Friday night. Snake discussion will begin on Thursday; until then I'll let people continue talking about MK, though at this point there isn't really much to be said.
If I could suggest something, I would say that there seems to be a lot of disagreement over the numerical statistics of this matchup. The general impression I've gotten is that it's in MK's favor no matter what, but the numbers range from 45:55 to 20:80 (CO18, were you really being serious?). Right now I'm inclined to average the values and say something like 35:65. Does this seem reasonable?
Gates i commend your effort, DDD really needs an organized matchup discussion hub.
But my 2 cents is that while ordering the discussion along with the tier list is a great idea, 20 weeks is a long time, and certain characters need to be discussed more "urgently" than others. Aside from the high tiers, I think DDDs need to discuss Olimar sooner than in 17 weeks. Sonic is not even in the top 20 but is more important i think than some of these other chars.
If you disagree with the characters i just named, let's not get into that straight away, all i mean to say is hard matchups in general. Any chance of prioritizing the numerous DDD counters?
===================
Back on the topic of metaknight - a lot has already been said about the matchup, but more stage counterpick/ban discussion is ftw...
So, for starter stages, vs MK: Strike Smashville and Battlefield; Favor Final Destination and Yoshi's Island Brawl. If the MK strikes those two, though, you'd be left with Lylat, I don't know if that's optimal.
In this matchup I'd prefer stages where your recovery is much less of an issue or with low ceilings to help you get that quick verticle KO. I like Yoshi's Island Brawl, Green Hill Zone, Corneria, Pokemon Stadium, Pictochat, and if it's allowed in the tournament Mario Circuit. I say two walk offs as the short blast zones allow for Dedede to utlize his shield grabbing to deadly extents and control the pace of the match. Pictochat can help you out a great deal with the random effects that will often ground Metaknight's air game and many of the "wall" effects can be hit through by Dedede much further than by Metaknight. If you had to ban a stage in this matchup I'd pick Green Greens or Luigi's Mansion.
Really? Using your ban on Green Greens? If green greens wasn't usually banned to begin with in my region, I think i'd actually consider using it as a counterpick. I'm thinking about those walls - you don't have an infinite, but you could make more use of it than MK could. Is there something about this stage that I am missing...?
Pokemon Stadium 1 - What makes you like it for the MK matchup, i'm curious?
Green Hill Zone, Corneria, and Mario Circuit are also typically banned in NJ. I agree with Pictochat being good, and L's Mansion being bad... I think i'd save my ban for Rainbow Cruise though... or Norfair. IMO metaknight is more annoying camping a ledge than anywhere else, and norfair has mad ledges.
Gates i commend your effort, DDD really needs an organized matchup discussion hub.
But my 2 cents is that while ordering the discussion along with the tier list is a great idea, 20 weeks is a long time, and certain characters need to be discussed more "urgently" than others. Aside from the high tiers, I think DDDs need to discuss Olimar sooner than in 17 weeks. Sonic is not even in the top 20 but is more important i think than some of these other chars.
If you disagree with the characters i just named, let's not get into that straight away, all i mean to say is hard matchups in general. Any chance of prioritizing the numerous DDD counters?
===================
Back on the topic of metaknight - a lot has already been said about the matchup, but more stage counterpick/ban discussion is ftw...
So, for starter stages, vs MK: Strike Smashville and Battlefield; Favor Final Destination and Yoshi's Island Brawl. If the MK strikes those two, though, you'd be left with Lylat, I don't know if that's optimal.
Really? Using your ban on Green Greens? If green greens wasn't usually banned to begin with in my region, I think i'd actually consider using it as a counterpick. I'm thinking about those walls - you don't have an infinite, but you could make more use of it than MK could. Is there something about this stage that I am missing...?
Pokemon Stadium 1 - What makes you like it for the MK matchup, i'm curious?
Green Hill Zone, Corneria, and Mario Circuit are also typically banned in NJ. I agree with Pictochat being good, and L's Mansion being bad... I think i'd save my ban for Rainbow Cruise though... or Norfair. IMO metaknight is more annoying camping a ledge than anywhere else, and norfair has mad ledges.
In the stage striking process, I don't recommend striking Smashville as it's the closest to FD in design and thus should be stricken last and only if your last two stages are FD/Yoshi's Island and Smashville. You should strike Lylat and Battlefield as soon as you possibly can and in that order.
As for Green Greens: Big characters + Wind + Bombs + Really quick opponent who can force them into things = bad. Dedede likes the walls on Green Greens but he doesn't like how well Meta can camp on the other side, nor how easy it is for him to blow himself up accidentily with his huge hitboxes. Yoshi's Island Melee had a short cieling but the odd design of the slopes and platforms doesn't favor Dedede's size over Meta's mobility. You're much better off somewhere flatter. I like Pokemon Stadium for this because of the psuedo infinite that can pop up. Much of the time it's a decently flat stage that Meta can't fly underneath. Most of the transformations are quite easy for D3 to deal with and control with his reach passing through several obstacles.
As for the bans in NJ I base my stage assumptions off of the SBR recommendations. I can't help much for regions of course.
Gates i commend your effort, DDD really needs an organized matchup discussion hub.
But my 2 cents is that while ordering the discussion along with the tier list is a great idea, 20 weeks is a long time, and certain characters need to be discussed more "urgently" than others. Aside from the high tiers, I think DDDs need to discuss Olimar sooner than in 17 weeks. Sonic is not even in the top 20 but is more important i think than some of these other chars.
If you disagree with the characters i just named, let's not get into that straight away, all i mean to say is hard matchups in general. Any chance of prioritizing the numerous DDD counters?
This is an excellent point. My tier order system seemed nice to me at the time, but then I realized that we'd be discussing Donkey Kong weeks before Pikachu and Ice Climbers, let alone Olimar. Here's the new edited order of discussion:
Ah Snake, you lovable old card, you. You're success with Snake will invariable differ based on the skill of the person controlling Snake. Especially when it comes to his recovery. First up you should realize, that zhain grabbing Snake is a bit more difficult as if you attempt your normal Chain grab he will grenade out on the second hit. This makes it harder to get to the "CG to Edgeguard" phase that Dedede most excels at. If I'm not mistaken though, a shield canceled chain grab can actually outspeed the grenades. Any chance to Dthrow Snake off the edge should always be taken. The position it ptus him in is highly unfavorable. If he attempts to Cypher, just grab him again, forcing a C4 recovery which is free damage for you. If he double jumps back to go for a high cypher, you can often Fsmash him right at the height of his double Jump. If you CGed to the edge, this is actually a kill from 0-death. amazingly enough (providing you sweet spot the Fsmash).
Waddle Dees can help quell those grenade camping snakes by smacking into them in mid air. Dedede needs help in this department, his large hit box is vary susceptible to grenades. Mortar Sliding is easily dealt with. Feel free to grab Snake out of it if he tries. Go ahead, it's fun. Suck Up will also work. Speaking of Suck Up....Feel Free to Suck Up and Spit Snake out under the stage. Often, he will -have- to C4 back to recover and you're UpB should allow you ample time to get back as well.
The downside in this matchup is Snake is one of the few characters with enough power to kill Dedede's lardy body at normal percentages. His Ftilt is godly and clashes with your own. It also works well for spacing you back out of grab range. Snake's utilt isn't as effective against D3 as he might like, but he can still Ftilt you off the side and deliver a devastating bair kill. Be wary of this as I believe it outranges DDDcide attempts and Fair.
Speaking of the air, get snake there and keep him there. It will take a while to kill with Utilt, but because of this, you shouldn't be afraid to use it as a damage dealer, you should primarily be using your edguarding for the kill anyway, so try and freshen up Bair when you can.
Overall, I put this matchup at about 55/45 for Dedede. I think he can handle Snake quite well so long as he plays smart, but it will be a much more difficult battle and could go either way if the DDD is sloppy.
What does everyone think of the fact that Snake can pull a grenade during the chaingrab? We had a thread on it a few months ago where everyone was panicking but ultimately it was decided to be a non-issue since Snake has like 1 frame to pull it off. Should this be addressed at all?
Also, what about Snakes who like to mortar slide? My friend is a good Snake player who I played a lot (semi-daily) over the summer, and he threw me off a few times because of mortar sliding (more so when he spammed it). Has anyone else found this to be problematic?
What does everyone think of the fact that Snake can pull a grenade during the chaingrab? We had a thread on it a few months ago where everyone was panicking but ultimately it was decided to be a non-issue since Snake has like 1 frame to pull it off. Should this be addressed at all?
Also, what about Snakes who like to mortar slide? My friend is a good Snake player who I played a lot (semi-daily) over the summer, and he threw me off a few times because of mortar sliding (more so when he spammed it). Has anyone else found this to be problematic?
I don't find my D3 getting caught up in the nade explosion much, if at all. The snake I fight regularly manages to pull them out, but they sort of just drop behind us when I'm continuing the CG. Plus, theirs not really a way to STOP them from doing it, so why worry?
And on snake dashing, I find it fairly easy to tell when snake is going to approach in that manner. If your too distanced away and throwing Waddle Dee's and Doo's, expect one, but just power shield and grab. They usually let the mortar loose before they reach you, or it's barely just out of range even with the blast radius on it. Just my two cents.
You should always grab them out of Mortarslide, you always have enough time for at least a Bthrow or Fthrow before the mortar hits you if it's even going to.
Hmm, I guess I should just get better at predicting mortar slides then.
So what stages do you guys like/hate for Snake? I've always found Lylat Cruise to be a bad choice, and just stages with a bunch of platforms in general. How is Animal Crossing? It seems like it would be a stage with its ups and downs.
BTW, does the MK matchup summary look ok to everyone? I forgot to ask.
I like pokemon stadium melee vs Snake, weird ledges can gimp him easily, you can inhale and spit em out under the stage which screws him there plus wall infinte..
I like pokemon stadium melee vs Snake, weird ledges can gimp him easily, you can inhale and spit em out under the stage which screws him there plus wall infinte..
I have to agree, but I'm leaning more towards 6:4 definitely. On stage, the fight is about even. He can deal some damage if you get caught up in tilts, throws, and the like, but off stage, you completely wreck. Plus Nair goes right through mortar, slightly useful for recovering.
I don't find it very practical to recover low and nair, due to the suspended falling animation. It sets snake up for an up tilt, ftilt. But if your recovering high, go for it.
Chaingrab to edgeguard, powerful aerials, extremely heavy. King Dedede has the biggest resistance against getting KOed upwards in the game, greatly lessening the threat of explosives, and making it very hard to KO him with uptilt, which even then only works at very high damages. Waddles can scout after being thrown and explode mines themselves.
King Dedede is Snake's worst matchup. Falco and DK are hard, but people keep calling them even, and I trust their judgement.
"...grab him out of it [cypher] and dthrow again..."
In my opinion, grabbing him out of his cypher and not attacking at all until he breaks is much more beneficial. You have just stolen his Up B, and if this doesn't give you a stock advantage, the snake most know blow himself upwards with Down Bs to try and recover. Either way, you get free damage.
Game and Watch is annoying. his Bair will cause serious issues for Dedede, not to mention that he's one of the few characters (much like snake) with the power to kill Dedede early. His Dsmash sends at a very low angle (or straight up) often and this is a bad place for Dedede to be as he may be forced to recover with Up B, leaving him vulnerable to an Usmash if he lands on the stand, or a spike from G&W's dash attack (WTF?) if he goes for the edge.
) which is basically a mix up powershielding and approaching that looks pretty impressive. I'll be debuting that on a grand scale with the coming of my combo video "Feel the magic" (Shameless plug) which you should all check out. Never fear though, there are ways around his lasers without powershielding the majority of them. You can easily spot dodge then jump and airdodge threw some lasers on your way towards falco with no landing lag as displayed in the video at 1:50. At the time this was saved i was just thinking of that approach, but now i have it down as you'll see in upcoming vids, and i promise that it works. (if you dont screw up like i did there lol)
I took it all from what people wrote with the discussion, with a tiny bit of personal experience.
