Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

[Affinity]

2 little things I noticed in the Snake section:

If he ciphers close enough to the stage, grab him out of it and dthrow again. He’ll have to C4 himself, taking an extra 15% damage, and try to get back to the stage again, where you’ll be waiting with bairs, fairs, or an fsmash.

After D-throwing, wouldn't Snake be able to cypher again? If I'm wrong, ignore this.

Another stage worth mentioning is Animal Crossing.

Smashville?

 

[Gates]

2 little things I noticed in the Snake section:


After D-throwing, wouldn't Snake be able to cypher again? If I'm wrong, ignore this.


Smashville?

1. Yes, he would be able to. I thought I fixed this after Foursaken pointed it out yesterday but I guess not. Anyway, it's fixed now.
2. Yes, that's what I meant. I've heard it referred to as both and I went with Animal Crossing for some reason. I started writing the summary at 11:30 at night, give me a break lol.

Also, since we basically lost a day with the forums being down yesterday, (and updating on a Thursday feels kind of weird to me anyway) I'm going to extend the G&W discussion by another day. G&W discussion ends and Falco discussion begins on 9/26.

 

[JST]

DDD's techchase is reall, really good against G&W.

Otherwise G&W is pure ****. The only thing DDD really has going for him imo are range, speed on certain attacks, a projectile, and really, really early kills against G&W (Like 80-90%). G&W doesn't have too many issues outspacing DDD's grab range if he's careful (Really careful), and the nature of G&W's attacks lets him **** huge characters. G&W will comboing DDD into next month. And he can kill DDD surprisingly early, both vertically and horizontally.

 

[Foursaken]

G&W can really give D3 a hard time if you don't space yourself well and get caught up in his pseudo - combos. The Bair is his main approach, and just utterly eats shields and pokes. Hold that shield up to last longer, but don't be surprised if you still eat some damage. D3's big size make him an easy target.

Another move worth noting is his Nair. STAY OFF OF PLATFORMS, please. You can get juggled at the beginning of a stock for a good 30 - 40 damage if the G&W abuses his nair. Bair into double nair, followed by Up B is bad. For you.

Now onto his smash attacks. Oh. Em. Gee. You can be killed in the early 100's by any FRESH smash attack, and it's not too hard to land on D3. They are lagless, so don't think " Oh, free hit if they miss an Usmash. "

You'll get Fsmashed or Dsmashed.

Now for some positives. G&W has a ridiculously slow roll animation, so tech chase is your BEST friend in this match up. And, good news is that G&W is a light weight, so he's easily KO'd at early percents. Save that Utilt, mindgame them into Fsmashs.

Also, G&W can be grabbed out of his Up B. Although VERY situational, when this happens, he'll fall to his death if you don't grab attack. He also can't pull a snake and C4 recovery, which means a free stock.

All in all, this match up is definately 4:6 - Game and Watch.

 

[neon..?]

GnW is so annoying for ddd he can actually kill at like 100's. his bair is annoying. just tech chase him...

 

[Gates]

Anybody have any stage preferences for this match? I'd say Corneria is probably the worst since it has a very small ceiling at the top of the tail, weird angles all over, a wall that he can use to infinite dtilt but you can't infinite grab on, and it's generally just Game & Watch's best stage. Norfair also seems particularly bad since it has so many platforms for him to combo you on. Of the neutral stages I'd say Lylat is probably the worst, followed by Battlefield.

So what are the good stages then?

 

[_Phloat_]

Anybody have any stage preferences for this match? I'd say Corneria is probably the worst since it has a very small ceiling at the top of the tail, weird angles all over, a wall that he can use to infinite dtilt but you can't infinite grab on, and it's generally just Game & Watch's best stage. Norfair also seems particularly bad since it has so many platforms for him to combo you on. Of the neutral stages I'd say Lylat is probably the worst, followed by Battlefield.

So what are the good stages then?

The u-tilt is as good at killing as GaW's u-smash, albiet a little less safe on block.

Most GaW's will take you to rainbow cruise, regardless of matchup BTW.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why is Lylat so bad for DDD vs G&W? Honestly, I see Lylat is one of G&W's less favorable stages since sweetspoting the edge is a bit harder.

Well, the main thing about this matchup is that G&W is pretty good at edgeguarding DDD, and he can't be CGed. I think he can also hit you out of Inhale with a well-spaced Smash attack, but I can't remember.

 

[Fogo]

You cant tech chase a good game and watch, or at least one that knows what up-b is. Trust me i've played against several of the best G-dubs in the nation and my brother plays a good one. If they do it right there's about 1-3 frames between them getting up and up-b'ing and gw is so weird that you can't even tell he's doing it. Not to mention the begining frames of the up-b are invincibility frames and he can just DI up after the Dthrow and up-b instantly.

That can be seen here at 0:50 and again at 1:54 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqdFEp6Id94

But on the bright side, there is a solution for up-b spammy Gdubs! ^_^

I found from my tournament matches against hylian and utd zac, two formidable Gdubs, that you can instantly footstool the up-b and do a Dair when you fly up, i call it the Hylian combo for obvious reasons lol

Also i've found that tech chasing IS NOT the best option against a good GW. If you find yourself landing a grab on a good GW it will most likely be seldom and you need to take advantage of it. I can count on two hands how many times i've landed a grab on Hylian from our whole set, and i'm really good at landing grabs, ask foursaken lol but what i'm saying is that you should Bthrow > jump > waddle throw. If it's fresh then they'll eat 23% and if they airdodge the waddle then the'yll fall into a bad position and you can control the map. You'll note that in the video above the majority of my throws are infact bthrows and for good reason too.

Now for racking up damage i like to use tilts and waddles when i can't get a grab off, but when a doo lands on the screen i quickly get rid of it because a bucket from a doo can kill at around 95-100%

Aside from that i can't think of much besides abusing lag from Dair and bair.

Agree? Disagree? Did i miss anything? discuss

 

[CO18]

You cant tech chase a good game and watch, or at least one that knows what up-b is. Trust me i've played against several of the best G-dubs in the nation and my brother plays a good one. If they do it right there's about 1-3 frames between them getting up and up-b'ing and gw is so weird that you can't even tell he's doing it. Not to mention the begining frames of the up-b are invincibility frames and he can just DI up after the Dthrow and up-b instantly.

That can be seen here at 0:50 and again at 1:54 -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqdFEp6Id94

But on the bright side, there is a solution for up-b spammy Gdubs! ^_^

I found from my tournament matches against hylian and utd zac, two formidable Gdubs, that you can instantly footstool the up-b and do a Dair when you fly up, i call it the Hylian combo for obvious reasons lol

Also i've found that tech chasing IS NOT the best option against a good GW. If you find yourself landing a grab on a good GW it will most likely be seldom and you need to take advantage of it. I can count on two hands how many times i've landed a grab on Hylian from our whole set, and i'm really good at landing grabs, ask foursaken lol but what i'm saying is that you should Bthrow > jump > waddle throw. If it's fresh then they'll eat 23% and if they airdodge the waddle then the'yll fall into a bad position and you can control the map. You'll note that in the video above the majority of my throws are infact bthrows and for good reason too.

Now for racking up damage i like to use tilts and waddles when i can't get a grab off, but when a doo lands on the screen i quickly get rid of it because a bucket from a doo can kill at around 95-100%

Aside from that i can't think of much besides abusing lag from Dair and bair.

Agree? Disagree? Did i miss anything? discuss

O snap I was wondering about that, Ive had a gaw do that to me before but noone else had ever done that. Thx for explaining.

 

[Fogo]

O snap I was wondering about that, Ive had a gaw do that to me before but noone else had ever done that. Thx for explaining.

Glad i could help

Btw, your combo vid is ****, i'm still in love with it lol

 

[Discolicious]

bah

I can't seem keep up with his short hop bair/nair on the ground without a constant waddle/ftilt spam. With no cg racking up damage is a bit of a pain but utilt kills at a very low percentage and waddles>bacon. He has a really good/quick recovery from under the stage so I usually have to work a smash/utilt in for the kill. He has a slow grab and roll so tech chasing is definitely an option. Overall hes one of the high tiers id rather face.

Edit: I just read the thread a bit above me and I guess up-b eliminates any kind of tech chasing lol

 

[Fogo]

You guys want me to edit my post a little so we can put it on the OP for this match-up? I'm really liking this idea and i'd love to contribute.

 

[Gates]

You guys want me to edit my post a little so we can put it on the OP for this match-up? I'm really liking this idea and i'd love to contribute.

I'm glad you like the idea and we could really use more good Dedede players like yourself and CO18 contributing.

As for editing your post to put it on the front page...well, here's how I kind of intended the format to be.

1. Discussion.
2. I write up a matchup summary that compiles all the elements of discussion, including they're threats and approaches, what we should do about it, the easiest ways to kill, chaingrab data, and stage choices.
3. After my summary I take a quote from the discussion that I feel illustrates the matchup the best and include it. If you look back at the quotes I've used for MK and Snake you can generally tell what qualities I'm looking for.

So ultimately, you can edit your post if you want but I'm almost definitely (95% chance) going to write a summary anyway.

But if you do edit your post, you should fix the link to the vid. It's not working because of the hyphen in front of the url.

 

[MorphedChaos]

I'd like to mention that Inhale is great o use vs G&W if he snot expecting it, as if hes sliding towards you or is going to do a dash canceled Usmash, you'll suck him in for a free 10 damage, but don't abuse it, otherwise he could Fsmash you out of Inhale. I've not tested it, but would Inhale break G&W's Bair? If it does, then D3 has a huge edge-up on the flat little guy.

 

[CO18]

I'd like to mention that Inhale is great o use vs G&W if he snot expecting it, as if hes sliding towards you or is going to do a dash canceled Usmash, you'll suck him in for a free 10 damage, but don't abuse it, otherwise he could Fsmash you out of Inhale. I've not tested it, but would Inhale break G&W's Bair? If it does, then D3 has a huge edge-up on the flat little guy.

No, Inhale doesnt break up bair.

And actually, I dont completely agree with using inhale at high percents against gaw, because quite often youll just pull the smash towards you if theyre out of range if youre not careful.

*Has had fully charged upsmashes kill him at 60% because of this :/

lol

 

[MorphedChaos]

Hm, well, there's that idea out the window. Didn't think he would slide that far, curse MK, everyone in my area plays as only him T.T, besides a few snakes....

Hm, Not much more I can think of then, other then try tech chasing mindgames, those work wonders. Maybe a Dsmash if he likes to roll around you like other characters? at least the Utilt kills him around 83% on FD, maybe a little more, not sure on that.

Maybe for a counter stage, FD? You will be able to read all his moves because the stage is so big. Either that or Haliberd, which D3 just ***** at if you know how to play that stage.

 

[bschung]

There have been many times when I got smashed by g+w because of inhale. I end up going for inhale on g+w less often than I do to other characters. On another note, Forward smash seems more useful than usual vs. game+watch, as he can have a hard time punishing it if you're spaced alright.

Also corneria was mentioned before, i might add that he can fill up his bucket with the lasers that the arwings shoot.

 

[Gates]

One last thing before discussion of G&W ends.

I know a lot of people say the matchup is about 40:60, but based on the discussion I'm a little tempted to write it as 35:65. Any thoughts on this?

Falco discussion begins at midnight tonight as planned. G&W summary will come this weekend.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Its still 40:60, its not such a huge advantage to G&W really, he dies at 70%, so he dies really quick, its just that he combos very well, thats all. Its all more of a matter of who gets the tilts/smashes off really.

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

FOWARD TILT


that is all.

 

[Gates]

FOWARD TILT


that is all.

BRILLIANT!

G&W summary coming this weekend.
FALCO DISCUSSION GO!

 

[ADHD]

Falco can camp you like crazy on FD so I would just choose a smaller stage. Sure there's less room to avoid his chaingrab, but at least you can actually approach him. If you get him offstage it's practically a stock, your nair beats his phantasm, and you can own his firebird.

 

[Gates]

Ignore this.

 

[EazyP]

Can't, Falco ***** this match up so hard it's sad, easily the worst match up for Dedede in game

 

[MorphedChaos]

No, no. Falco can CG D3, we can only Tech chase him. I'd suggest a stage like Halberd or Battlefield when fighting Falco, so you don't get stuck in laser spam. You could throw a waddle dee to take the spam too, but they don't last forever. Approaching Falco is the hard part, but once you can get a few hits in, you can get him off the stage due to his light weight, then just WoP him from there to kill him, using Nair if he uses his Side B to recover, your Bair or Fair if he uses Fire Falco.

If Falco likes to use his reflector, don't be tempted to spam Waddle Dee Toss, as a gordo can be reflected int your face, and it hurts, a lot. Your Utilt kills Falco at about 94%, which is good.

Another thing, is that Falco can't CG D3 at around 60%, as then you bounce or can tech out of it, but most likely Falco will CG you to the end of the stage, and try to spike you with his Dair, so watch out for that. His Fsmash is quick and does lots of knockback when fresh, but decays terribly, the second one only having 2/3rds the damage and 1/2 the knockback of the first. He also needs to sweetspot it to do real god damage and knockback with it.

This match is more around getting close, avoiding laser spam, and pressuring him off the stage, once there, hes at your mercy. Definetly D3's worst matchup, as he can laserlock you VERY easily. The approach is the hardest part of the entire fight, as you need to dodge laser spam, his reflector, AND being grabbed, not to mention his AAA attack. If you can get past that, then GET HIM OFF THE STAGE! Then its in your favor now.

 

[Gates]

Whoops, I misread that.

 

[ADHD]

Get him offstage and shield grab him like hell. You can get camped into oblivion so approach aggressively if it's a gay camping falco but be careful of his grab

I don't think it's that much of a bad matchup considering d3 is really fat and falco has trouble landing the kills, also offstage you can gimp him like crazy and shieldgrab him to hell onstage, you also have nice range on your ftilt

 

[MorphedChaos]

Hey Chrome, could I fight your D3 with my falco I've been toying around with today? Might give us a little data on this matchup, even though I'm probably only advanced level with Falco T.T

 

[Mikey7]

Don't really know much about this match...but what I do know is
-Bair clanks/goes through Falco's phantasm
-Falco can shoot lasers over waddles, throwing a waddle will just cause you to eat some lasers.
Sorry, can't contribute much I have no Falco matchup experience.

I would like to address the "tech chasing" thing though...I feel like backthrow is better htan tech chase until it stales. As we all know backthrow is 16% and it stales to about 10. It is much more practical to backthrow first then later on (70+% to start tech chasing) this way you dont stale out the dsmash that you might need for a kill later.

 

[ADHD]

Hey Chrome, could I fight your D3 with my falco I've been toying around with today? Might give us a little data on this matchup, even though I'm probably only advanced level with Falco T.T

lol im new to d3 i wouldn't be much of a help but tommy_g the falco said that you have to camp good d3s or else you get shield grabbed like hell

 

[Sensei Seibrik]

Listen to this man^^^^^



Tommy G is the best Falco in FL, easily one of the best overall, and he beat me this past tourny in winners bracket ddd/falco

in losers finals the first round he almost three stocked me, and i decided to go kirby and 2 stocked him three times in a row.

it wasn't random or anything, since kirby was my original main way back wen and is now my unofficial second. first time he saw the light of a tourny in months lol

Note*
this doesnt mean i've given up on the ddd/falco matchup. just like i did with metaknights, i will learn this matchup well, make it even, and come out on top. i just wasn't comfortable with how the matches were playing out AT THE TIME and i wanted to win more than learn the matchup IN tourny.

wen i figure more out on the match i'll come back here and actually post up useful information.

 

[Fogo]

i'll be back for a detailed mach-up post in the morning



post reserved.

 

[Jupz]

I'd say Smashville or Yoshis Island

 

[The Real Inferno]

DDD does not enjoy Falco at all. Lasers skewer the fat penguin all over the place and can play hell with his recovery as he constantly tries to get above Falco's jump height in order to not be spiked. It doesn't help that Falco can wait for your Super Armor to run out and spike you out of an Up B if you try to Meteor cancel, sending you right back where you started from. Falco's Bair is justreally amazing. It's so fast and strong, perfect for edgeguarding. Falco has -all- of the tools necessary to avoid being grabbed by DDD, and this doesn't bode well for a character that mostly builds their entire game around grabs. Waddle Dees can form a little bit of a buffer between you and lasers, but the short hopped variety will constantly be catching you in the forehead without power shielding, which of course slows you down. If Falco wants to be gay enough, he'll probably camp you for quite a wall, racking up little bits of damage with Shine and Laser before he can catch you in a chain grab. Falco clearly has the advantage against you on neutral ground, so in the striking process you may wish to go to a "neutral" that isn't quite as even as the name implies. I recommend Lylat Cruise because of how it ****s all over Falco's recovery and the tilting can help mess up his lasers.(This is ironically probably the -only- time you'd ever want to be on Lylat) If you can set up with Falco above you, he'll have trouble ever getting back down through your Utilt, Usmash, and Uair. (If your tournament uses Random Nuetrals and Lylat is one of them and it allows a one go nuetral reset, it may be worth risking the reset to try and get Lylat). If Castle Siege, Delphino or (as a last resort) Pokemon Stadium 1 are available starters, they are great too. The point is to try and make it to where you can limit Falco's advantages against you as much as possible.

In counterpicking, I recommend stages where he cannot camp you as badly. Luigi's Mansion can help alot as your power makes the large blast zones not matter as much and fighting near the posts leave syou a spot to roll behind and dodge lasers easily (you can also tilt from behind them and unstale anything you might be forced to spam on them). Corneria can be great as well. Camp in the "hole" and you should be pretty much set. It will be difficult for Falco to come in on you without putting himself at a disadvantage. He'll probably either come at you with a Dair or hop over and deliver a Bair. The Bair should be shielded and ready for a grab as he hits the ground and the Dair can be stopped if you just Uair through the edge of the ship's fin. You can also Use Suck up to catch him off guard if he's hovering over you and spit him out at the wall. If he's surprised enough he might just be setup for a Dthrow infinite. Speaking of Dthrow, Delphino can set this up as well, while the floating platform often causes Falco to SD if he tries to Illusion Sweetspot (He''ll just pass through the platform for seemingly no reason alot of the time).

 

[hizzlum]

As DDD is my main, I still see it as very difficult to win a match against a good falco. Falco out camps and out prioritizes DDD in most of his moves and Falco's CG+the dair at the end is simple KO on a big target, and DDD's CG dosent work, so sheild grab bairs are his throw game in ths match or the tech chase bair if you think you can predict the opponent. But lets not forget that DDD's spacing with his ftilt and side B rivals if not better than falco's range, which at times will get a little %. Also DDD's got more KO power in the match which helps for an inconsistent way of building up % on falco, the utilt, dtilt,fsmash,well placed dash attack , and DDD WoP edgegame with Bairs, Fairs, and Nairs to counter falco's recovery are things that help make up for the SHDL and Falco's CG+Dair if not DI'd. Unfortunatly with all that being said, falco quick % build up of DDD makes it very difficult for DDD to win. I say the match-up is 65-35 falco, and looking at top pros, it seems that falco is not a counter to DDD, yet will do consistently well, but not completly destory DDD. The video below is of AXis, the biggest smash tourney ever a few weeks ago, which SK92, one of if not the best falco's in the US, playing Aero ranked 5th in socal(one of the best gaming communities) with DDD.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8tVVW5HAeSM&feature=related
So I guess with that in mind I would switch to marth(thats my situation) when playing a falco, mainly cuz marth has a newly discovered CG on falco and out ranges most of falco's move's and his Ko power gets kills early then falco would(just IMo and my marth on match-up threads has advatange over falco)

 

[akkon888]

Falco and DDD would be about even Id say. The Waddle Dee projectiles not only are good, but they can stop falco's beam. I say equal.

 

[Tyser]

^ No .

 

[Sinz]

For counterpicks, use either Pokemon stadium 1 or Lylat cruise, you just gotta try to gimp his recov. This match up is pretty hard, but you need to do Up throws against Falco to do well. And by well, I mean take him down to 1 stock.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Lylat is a great stage Vs falco, the tilting of the stage interferes with his laser spam, Halberd is good too, if you go in the little indent and duck, you duck underneath the lasers.

Its been about a week now, Think we should try another enemy?