It hasn't been a week yet. I can keep track of my own thread thank you
Sinz, your point on the uthrows is interesting. Could you elaborate on it more?
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Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)
- Thread starter Gates
- Start date
Sinz, your point on the uthrows is interesting. Could you elaborate on it more?
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
Its somethin i already figured out as well.
When is ddd happy? When someone is above him.
Follow where they're going to land, and sheild.
If they fall with an attack, sheild grab, they fall with an airdodge, just grab anyway.
Grabs beat people above you. Falco's a fastfaller, he has less time then most to react/float away.
Also, you can throw in a couple uairs for mixup, make 'em scared.
They're safest option is to DI far away, and F-B back on toward the stage, which isnt the best place for them to be in.
somethin i discovered today. DDD can back air Falco's foward b if he's facing falco....
hmmm
When is ddd happy? When someone is above him.
Follow where they're going to land, and sheild.
If they fall with an attack, sheild grab, they fall with an airdodge, just grab anyway.
Grabs beat people above you. Falco's a fastfaller, he has less time then most to react/float away.
Also, you can throw in a couple uairs for mixup, make 'em scared.
They're safest option is to DI far away, and F-B back on toward the stage, which isnt the best place for them to be in.
somethin i discovered today. DDD can back air Falco's foward b if he's facing falco....
hmmm
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
Falco's advantages:
• Superior projectile game
• Faster ground movement
• Ability to CG ;Dedede can't CG him
• Superior stage control with use of projectile
• Quick horizontal recovery to avoid edgeguarding
Dedede's advantages:
• Superior grab range
• High capacity for early kills
• Better poking game (F-tilt)
• Heavy weight
IMO this matchup is in falco's favor, 65:35.
Video reference for below statements: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loGUQcQO0-E
DISCLAIMER: The above video is old and will be updated with a new one ASAP. It's from 6/30, before i got really good XD
As far as fighting one goes, patience is key, and when you strike you have to get as much out of it as you can. In my time playing falcos i've realized that there are obvious trends in the way they return to the stage and in the way they try to approach/kill. I find that whenever i fight the higher level falcos in my area that these trends don't exist, though when i say "higher level falcos" i mean people like sethlon, the second best falco in the nation, so you can expect these out of average people most of the time.
First, we'll start off with recovery trends and how to punish them. It's a well known fact that NO falco ever wants to use his up-b to recover against someone who can move around in the air like D3 does, so you'll see most falcos using side-b to recover.(Also referred to as the Phantasm) If you'll take a look at the video referrence posted above you'll notice how this move can be quick and annoying to try to edgeguard at 0:37. The great thing about this is, most falcos try to ram the phantasm right into you, so it tends to be really predictable and easy to punish if you use the right techniques. I've found that one of the best ways to edgeguard a falco isn't to wildly fling yourself into to fray, but to stay planted, control your ground and use your range. If you'll view the vid again you can see at 0:57 how this concept is slightly shown. Another great stage guard is throwing a waddle dee into their phantasm as they do it towards you. If they're anywhere under 115% then it'll be a free grab for you because they pop up right in front of you after the hit. (yes waddles do break phantasm) That's just my opinion on edgeguarding, not saying you shuold do that ever time, but it does work. You can see more traditional D3 edgeguarding at 1:25 (<3 Aero)
Now secondly, we'll talk about how to deal with falco's approach/camp game. Ok, this is the hard part, IMO this is what makes the matchup so hard, his **** lasers. Never fear though, there are ways around his lasers without powershielding the majority of them. You can easily spot dodge then jump and airdodge threw some lasers on your way towards falco with no landing lag as displayed in the video at 1:50. At the time this was saved i was just thinking of that approach, but now i have it down as you'll see in upcoming vids, and i promise that it works. (if you dont screw up like i did there lol)
EDIT: Bthrow is your best friend! Not uthrow lol
Basically if you play smart and land utilts this is all you'll need to beat the average falco player, good luck guys!
• Superior projectile game
• Faster ground movement
• Ability to CG ;Dedede can't CG him
• Superior stage control with use of projectile
• Quick horizontal recovery to avoid edgeguarding
Dedede's advantages:
• Superior grab range
• High capacity for early kills
• Better poking game (F-tilt)
• Heavy weight
IMO this matchup is in falco's favor, 65:35.
Video reference for below statements: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loGUQcQO0-E
DISCLAIMER: The above video is old and will be updated with a new one ASAP. It's from 6/30, before i got really good XD
As far as fighting one goes, patience is key, and when you strike you have to get as much out of it as you can. In my time playing falcos i've realized that there are obvious trends in the way they return to the stage and in the way they try to approach/kill. I find that whenever i fight the higher level falcos in my area that these trends don't exist, though when i say "higher level falcos" i mean people like sethlon, the second best falco in the nation, so you can expect these out of average people most of the time.
First, we'll start off with recovery trends and how to punish them. It's a well known fact that NO falco ever wants to use his up-b to recover against someone who can move around in the air like D3 does, so you'll see most falcos using side-b to recover.(Also referred to as the Phantasm) If you'll take a look at the video referrence posted above you'll notice how this move can be quick and annoying to try to edgeguard at 0:37. The great thing about this is, most falcos try to ram the phantasm right into you, so it tends to be really predictable and easy to punish if you use the right techniques. I've found that one of the best ways to edgeguard a falco isn't to wildly fling yourself into to fray, but to stay planted, control your ground and use your range. If you'll view the vid again you can see at 0:57 how this concept is slightly shown. Another great stage guard is throwing a waddle dee into their phantasm as they do it towards you. If they're anywhere under 115% then it'll be a free grab for you because they pop up right in front of you after the hit. (yes waddles do break phantasm) That's just my opinion on edgeguarding, not saying you shuold do that ever time, but it does work. You can see more traditional D3 edgeguarding at 1:25 (<3 Aero)
Now secondly, we'll talk about how to deal with falco's approach/camp game. Ok, this is the hard part, IMO this is what makes the matchup so hard, his **** lasers. Never fear though, there are ways around his lasers without powershielding the majority of them. You can easily spot dodge then jump and airdodge threw some lasers on your way towards falco with no landing lag as displayed in the video at 1:50. At the time this was saved i was just thinking of that approach, but now i have it down as you'll see in upcoming vids, and i promise that it works. (if you dont screw up like i did there lol)
EDIT: Bthrow is your best friend! Not uthrow lol
Basically if you play smart and land utilts this is all you'll need to beat the average falco player, good luck guys!
The Real Inferno
Smash Hero
I forgot to put my rank on the matchup back in my little paragraphs a short way's back in which I think it's 65:35 Falco.
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
I can beat average falco players nice >_>
i've only lost to Tommy G's falco, but it only takes ONE player to take you out of a tourny twice.
i've only lost to Tommy G's falco, but it only takes ONE player to take you out of a tourny twice.
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
and THATS why im better 
jk <3
jk <3
Note I didn't say you had to camp them 100% for all of their life until the last hit. I've done that before and it's not only ineffective, but it feels horrible doing it. Sorry WeeG if you can see this. XD
Dedede's tend to sidestep and grab a lot. Camping (or even using the laser at a closer range) messes them both up. Dedede's are probably easiest to adapt to because of the majority of the time on the ground is either grab, shield, or sidestep. Surprisingly what hurts dedede the most is his size and shield-pokability(yeah I just made up that word and I'm trademarking it. At least I didn't put my name in it.) That's kind of a double negative. Dedede goes in, he pretty much always shields, waiting for a grab opportunity. That shield whoring diminishes it and allow some of Falco's moves to poke it. It also lets him get grabbed. Dedede doesn't like to get grabbed by Falco(many nice falco setups).
Dedede's style puts him to have to play right about Ftilt for as much time as he could. Only approaching when safe. I'd be very surprised if a Dedede full hopped at me and down air-ed. I think they can jump out of it so it seems pretty safe if its shielded, especially if they DI past me. Possible mix up game idk I don't play Dedede.
Honestly now, it's a bad match up for Dedede, probably his worst one, but this game is still evolving so who knows.
Edit: Lmao at Seibrik's cockiness XD Btw you 2 stocked me once. The other 2 were 1 stocks.
Atomsk_92
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Jun 8, 2006
- Messages
- 6,362
choknater
Smash Obsessed
atomsk... i can stare at your sig forever...
lucky star girls are so hot imo
lucky star girls are so hot imo
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
lain
Smash Master
This is an interesting matchup.
Ice Climbers have the advantage ~60-40. Simply put, it's Ice Climbers. All IC's have to do is wait around to get 1 grab and it's over. Dedede has to play a really tight spacing game while being smarter then the opponent to win this one. IC's big advantage over a lot of characters is being able to desync so quickly into a blizzard (typically a guaranteed grab if any character is caught in it).
Abusing Dedede's excellent vertical range while punishing IC's lack of it (besides the belay, where Nana is an invincible hitbox XD) is key here. Dair splits them up nicely, allowing you to go for a fair or bair afterwards on defenseless nana.
ok nap time.
Ice Climbers have the advantage ~60-40. Simply put, it's Ice Climbers. All IC's have to do is wait around to get 1 grab and it's over. Dedede has to play a really tight spacing game while being smarter then the opponent to win this one. IC's big advantage over a lot of characters is being able to desync so quickly into a blizzard (typically a guaranteed grab if any character is caught in it).
Abusing Dedede's excellent vertical range while punishing IC's lack of it (besides the belay, where Nana is an invincible hitbox XD) is key here. Dair splits them up nicely, allowing you to go for a fair or bair afterwards on defenseless nana.
ok nap time.
onlymaskde
Smash Lord
It's all about spacing for Dedede. His projectile game is better than the IC's, so abuse it. Obviously, dtilt and ftilt are good moves to use in the matchup too. Other than that, approaching ICs needs to be cautious because if Dedede makes a mistake, then it will probably result in a grab. Being grabbed is the main thing to be cautious of, as Dedede is superior to them in most other aspects.
I would say the matchup is close to 50-50. Things can go either way. A grab from either players can send the match in their favor.
I would say the matchup is close to 50-50. Things can go either way. A grab from either players can send the match in their favor.
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
False, in so many ways.
This matchup is easily 70-30 in ic's favor and d3's projectiles don't even come close to touching ic's.
onlymaskde
Smash Lord
...explanation?
I'm not surprised if I'm a bit wrong. I don't have a lot of experience with the matchup, most of what I said is based on some friendlies I've had and general knowledge.
As for the projectiles, it's situational, to say the least.
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
If IC gets ONE grab on you, they can infinite CG you to death if they know how to do it. Not to mention Desynch to Squall/Blizzard, and the dreaded Iceshot lock.
Collective of Bears
King of Hug Style
Ice Climbers are my worst matchup using Triple D. Those CGs... *shudders*
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
sry to sound like a douche but when i saw that it infuriated me lol
I live down the street from one of the best IC players in the US and i've traveled to play others that are good with them and i'm kinda traumatized from the way they force you to play if you want to win
Full explanation later though
choknater
Smash Obsessed
i main play ic's and ddd as well
ic's have a huge advantage
heck they can win with only blizz LMAO
ic's have a huge advantage
heck they can win with only blizz LMAO
M15t3R E
Smash Master
How intriguing, a match between the two most grabby characters in the game.
Sorry to say this, but here's the breakdown of a match between an experienced DDD and an experienced IC... DDD's grabs < IC's grabs.
So don't take the IC opponent lightly. Use plenty of bairs and waddle dees for spacing. Spacing is the key to victory for you DDD's. If they try to approach you with their side-B spin, you can inhale them, as throwing waddle dees don't stop them in that situation.
And seriously, do NOT play all grab happy against them. You'll regret it.
I can't wait till next week when you discuss the Pikachu match-up, heh heh heh.
Sorry to say this, but here's the breakdown of a match between an experienced DDD and an experienced IC... DDD's grabs < IC's grabs.
So don't take the IC opponent lightly. Use plenty of bairs and waddle dees for spacing. Spacing is the key to victory for you DDD's. If they try to approach you with their side-B spin, you can inhale them, as throwing waddle dees don't stop them in that situation.
And seriously, do NOT play all grab happy against them. You'll regret it.
I can't wait till next week when you discuss the Pikachu match-up, heh heh heh.
I am very, very tempted to call the matchup 3:7 ICs. It really does seem like they beat us on most every aspect.
What about stage selection? The bad stages are definitely FD, Smashville, and other large flat stages. What does everyone think about good stages? Battlefield seems like a nice choice out of the neutrals, as does Lylat Cruise.
Thoughts?
What about stage selection? The bad stages are definitely FD, Smashville, and other large flat stages. What does everyone think about good stages? Battlefield seems like a nice choice out of the neutrals, as does Lylat Cruise.
Thoughts?
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
rainbow cruise, delfino, norfair, port town aero drive, jungle japes, and brinstar are all horrible for the ic's
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
Rainbow Cruise is BY FAR, the worst IC stage for them. Counterpick that, and they have to basically roll over and take it, they can't CG you, they can't Squall or Blizzard you, or icelock you, they are stuck to aerials, which D3 eats them alive.
lain
Smash Master
If you are Dedede vs. IC's, choose battlefield.
I swear to ****ing **** I will be pissed if I don't see a Dedede pick BF. But you gotta platform camp with dairs to win. 2 gewdz.
Rainbow Cruise is good too.
Norfair is pretty gay as well.
I swear to ****ing **** I will be pissed if I don't see a Dedede pick BF. But you gotta platform camp with dairs to win. 2 gewdz.
Rainbow Cruise is good too.
Norfair is pretty gay as well.
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
lain your avatar is broken <3
and i can't find the time to write up this match-up, blehhhh.
and i can't find the time to write up this match-up, blehhhh.
lain
Smash Master
I believe I've said quite a bit.
It's all accurate too, you'll find.
It's all accurate too, you'll find.
Alright, I need to update now. I'll do what I can with Ice Climbers and have the summary up by Tuesday (I have a 4 day weekend this week, go me).
Also lain, I didn't mean to diss you or anyone else who posted. Any contribution to this thread is fantastic and I greatly appreciate it. I was just hoping for an extremely detailed post on it like we've had with all the other matchups so far. I'm just getting spoiled by good posters lol.
PIKACHU DISCUSSION GO!
Also lain, I didn't mean to diss you or anyone else who posted. Any contribution to this thread is fantastic and I greatly appreciate it. I was just hoping for an extremely detailed post on it like we've had with all the other matchups so far. I'm just getting spoiled by good posters lol.
PIKACHU DISCUSSION GO!
MorphedChaos
Smash Lord
Pikachu is fun to fight. Thunder means you can't get above him, and you need to counter thunder jolt spam with waddles. Hes lighter then MK, so he dies fast. His recovery is really good, but Bair and Nair beat Quick attack, and Bair beats Skull Bash.
You need to watch out to not get trapped by his Dsmash, but that can be DI'ed out of. Try to trick him into Dsmashing a waddle, You can always get a free Fsmash on him if he does.
You need to watch out to not get trapped by his Dsmash, but that can be DI'ed out of. Try to trick him into Dsmashing a waddle, You can always get a free Fsmash on him if he does.
choknater
Smash Obsessed
watch the chain grabs....
M15t3R E
Smash Master
=]
MOUSE VS PENGUIN!
It's so much fun to fight King Dedede. Almost my favorite match-up ever. Pikachu is overwhelmingly faster than DDD so speed will be your biggest disadvantage. Try to keep Pikachu at bay with waddle dee toss. If you use it enough, a t-jolt happy Pikachu will have to resort to something else.
Use your tilts and grabs in a close quarters fight and SH B-airs for spacing. Treat your aerials other than B-airs as a situational form of attack in this fight, as Pikachu's aerials are better than DDD's. An exception is that your U-air is fairly safe to use on a Pikachu dropping down from the air. Your smashes are very situational here, and you should almost never use any of them other than d-smash.
B-airs can be spammed for edgeguarding. When Pikachu is trying to edgeguard you, watch the Pikachu's position to anticipate the deadly thunder, and use F-air if Pikachu gets too close. Be moving constantly the whole match, as you won't want to get chaingrabbed. In case a few of you didn't know, you can only get in 1 grab at a time on Pikachu. CG does NOT work.
I would have to say this match is 6.5/3.5 in Pikachu's favor.
Stay on your guard against Pikachu.
Watch a few Anther vs. Dope videos on YouTube to see the match-up in action.
MOUSE VS PENGUIN!
It's so much fun to fight King Dedede. Almost my favorite match-up ever. Pikachu is overwhelmingly faster than DDD so speed will be your biggest disadvantage. Try to keep Pikachu at bay with waddle dee toss. If you use it enough, a t-jolt happy Pikachu will have to resort to something else.
Use your tilts and grabs in a close quarters fight and SH B-airs for spacing. Treat your aerials other than B-airs as a situational form of attack in this fight, as Pikachu's aerials are better than DDD's. An exception is that your U-air is fairly safe to use on a Pikachu dropping down from the air. Your smashes are very situational here, and you should almost never use any of them other than d-smash.
B-airs can be spammed for edgeguarding. When Pikachu is trying to edgeguard you, watch the Pikachu's position to anticipate the deadly thunder, and use F-air if Pikachu gets too close. Be moving constantly the whole match, as you won't want to get chaingrabbed. In case a few of you didn't know, you can only get in 1 grab at a time on Pikachu. CG does NOT work.
I would have to say this match is 6.5/3.5 in Pikachu's favor.
Stay on your guard against Pikachu.
Watch a few Anther vs. Dope videos on YouTube to see the match-up in action.
Pikachu is at a obstacle because all D3 has to do is HIT HIM one with a smash. Other than that, it's hard for D3. P spams relentlessly, and the only thing D3 can do is spam his guys at him. No air, P is a tough air hog with his thunder. VERY hard, I'd say 7:3.
![[FBC] ESAM](/data/avatars/l/92/92614.jpg?1365783210){kind=avatar}
[FBC] ESAM
Smash Legend
Ahh, my favorite MU as pikachu is against DDD. I have a lot of EXP in this matchup thanks to Seibrik, so i will be able to help a lot.
Pika's Advantages
DDD is such a big target for pikachu, and is very easy to hit with multi-hit attacks like bair and D-smash. Pikachu's speed overwhelms DDD, and the only things to really stop it are some well placed Waddles/gordo or very well timed F-tilts. Pikachu's CG on DDD lasts until about 60%, which can be very irritating to the DDD. Also, if CGing to the edge, pikachu can grab attack when they are right next to the edge and both characters will fall off, and pikachu will be able to nair. Video example here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfJR1b7Mi1w (Watch at 0:27, its basically what happens, except i was close enough to the ledge so i didn't fall off and nair)
Since DDD is huge, it is really hard to DI out of thunder if you are stuck smack-dab in the middle of it, so watch out for U-throws, U-tilts, and U-smashes. Pikachu can outcamp DDD with T-jolts and QACing above and around him. Pikachu's T-jolts also hug the ledge, so it is not advised to try to ledgebait him to a DDD suck up.
Approaching pikachu from the top is VERY ill-advised, for pikachu has thunder and u-air (Pikachu's best juggling attack), although DDDs dair breaks through it Since DDD is such a big target, DI-ing out if Pikas D-smash is a bit more difficult, for you may be sucked in. Tap DIing up is the most efficient way, but watch out, for the last hit still might get you and send you flying.
Pika's Disadvantage
DDDs bair breaks through Skull bash (pikas side-b) which can make it somewhat irritating to recover, but it is only a minor nuisance. The multiple jumps of DDD make it irritating for pikachu to approach DDD in the air or off of the cliff, for you can just jump and fair around 4 times. Quick attack can be grabbed by DDD with extremely good timing. Pikachu will die at around 85 from a u-tilt, and around 40-50 from a sweetspot forward smash. Pikachu's tech-roll doesn't move him very much, so pikachu is quite tech-chasable if you are good at it.
Overall
Pika's advantage 65-35 or 70-30
Pika's Advantages
DDD is such a big target for pikachu, and is very easy to hit with multi-hit attacks like bair and D-smash. Pikachu's speed overwhelms DDD, and the only things to really stop it are some well placed Waddles/gordo or very well timed F-tilts. Pikachu's CG on DDD lasts until about 60%, which can be very irritating to the DDD. Also, if CGing to the edge, pikachu can grab attack when they are right next to the edge and both characters will fall off, and pikachu will be able to nair. Video example here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfJR1b7Mi1w (Watch at 0:27, its basically what happens, except i was close enough to the ledge so i didn't fall off and nair)
Since DDD is huge, it is really hard to DI out of thunder if you are stuck smack-dab in the middle of it, so watch out for U-throws, U-tilts, and U-smashes. Pikachu can outcamp DDD with T-jolts and QACing above and around him. Pikachu's T-jolts also hug the ledge, so it is not advised to try to ledgebait him to a DDD suck up.
Approaching pikachu from the top is VERY ill-advised, for pikachu has thunder and u-air (Pikachu's best juggling attack), although DDDs dair breaks through it Since DDD is such a big target, DI-ing out if Pikas D-smash is a bit more difficult, for you may be sucked in. Tap DIing up is the most efficient way, but watch out, for the last hit still might get you and send you flying.
Pika's Disadvantage
DDDs bair breaks through Skull bash (pikas side-b) which can make it somewhat irritating to recover, but it is only a minor nuisance. The multiple jumps of DDD make it irritating for pikachu to approach DDD in the air or off of the cliff, for you can just jump and fair around 4 times. Quick attack can be grabbed by DDD with extremely good timing. Pikachu will die at around 85 from a u-tilt, and around 40-50 from a sweetspot forward smash. Pikachu's tech-roll doesn't move him very much, so pikachu is quite tech-chasable if you are good at it.
Overall
Pika's advantage 65-35 or 70-30
Sensei Seibrik
Smash Hero
Lies!
It's Even!
Nuf said, thats my argument.
It's Even!
Nuf said, thats my argument.
onlymaskde
Smash Lord
I like playing Brinstar against Pikachu
M15t3R E
Smash Master
A common stage that tends to shut down many of my tactics is Battlefield. I have to play differently there.
Try counter-picking that stage against a Pikachu and see what happens. =/
Emblem Lord
The Legendary Lord
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- Scotch Plains, NJ
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- ShinEmblemLord
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You guys should do Marth next.
*Runs away
*Runs away