Diddy's advantages over MK are exploitable on more than just FD

Lets make Diddy a Metaknight counter. Period. (Or prove he can't be)

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Personally I don't have a problem with Metaknight. He is rediculously cheap, yes, but, it wouldn't steer me away from attending tournaments.

Right now, MK is facing the ban hammer. Whether that hammer falls or not is dependent (in part) on whether players can present feasible counter-strategies to defeating Metaknight.

Here's a popular theory thrown around by everyone:
Diddy has the advantage against Metaknight on Final Destination

Whilst this may be true, it's still not enough to constitute Diddy as a counter. Metaknight's have an easy solution anyway, ban FD. Simple no?

But see that's the thing, players will do this regardless. They will always ban FD against Diddy Kong. So we as Diddy players have begun to maximize the potential of platform stages like Battlefield.

So then let's discuss the starters. The Diddy Kong's in the know, know that Diddy does great on platform stages, a common trait found in all of the traditional 5 starters.

Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
Smashville
Lylat Cruise

Typically, the two stages we don't like are Yoshi's Island and Lylat (although I actually don't mind Lylat for some reason...on good days anyway)

With stage striking we can avoid those stages, which leaves us with:

Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville

The opponent will almost definitely opt to strike FD, and then will strike one of the two remaining.

So in essence we need to learn Battlefield and Smashville, and more specifically, how to use the determining factors, the platforms, in such a way as to beat Metaknight.

This is key. I present to you this problem. How do we use either of these stages to give Diddy the same edge as on FD?

Okay, so we all already know that Z-grabbing items is the shiz right? This is something we all remember from watching Gano play in his Ketubato-X videos from months and months ago. This is the main focal point of all of this. Taking advantage of banana placement on platforms.

BUT, people seem to have forgotten Ketubato, well, everybody but the monkey mains anyway. This, among other facts, is key to whether we can, or cannot provide a feasible argument that says "Diddy is a counter to Metaknight on more starter/legal stages than FD"

We need to figure out what makes or breaks Diddy's game on stages other than FD against Metaknight. When we can present a number of stages relatively as effective as FD for Diddy against Metaknight, we can present a counter to Metaknight.

What we need to do is present an argument either way. People in the MK ban threads keep saying "Yes, MK can be beaten by Yoshi, DK, Boswer, Snake, Diddy etc." but there usually is a lack of proof. More to that point, there is a lack of informed opinion regarding Diddy on the matter (At least, an opinion that is not lost in those massive MK ban threads).

Lastly. Right now, the Diddy matchup is 4:6 in MK's favour.
At that level of equity, it comes down to experience in the matchup and skill overall.

I plan to get MK mains in here on this too. We need to prove/debunk all this once and for all.

1st Post, LoLz

NinjaLink has a lot of experience and knowledge in this match up. I suggest you get him in here.

And I agree that we should get MK mains in here too. That way we can have more than a one dimensional sided opinion on the match up.



-advent-

I'm no authority, but I bet most MKs will agree that we'd rather play Diddy on BF than SV.

Yeah, well I figured that Battlefield is the one we'd have to talk about first.

The misconception about battlefield is that the platforms get in Diddy's way, when in fact, they are not really.

When I take a step back and look at it, there is only one real disadvantage, and it's that it makes it relatively easier for Metaknight to pick them up if they're left up there. All they have to do is Z grab the banana and hey presto, MK's got a projectile.

I don't know, I think gaining control of bananas on platforms as MK can be awkward at times, and given the right pressure, downright impossible at times.

On that note, battlefield is a more, well, enclosed space I guess. This is where we run into another problem/solution.

Both Metaknight and Diddy Kong are pressure play characters, something that an enclosed space like battlefield encourages (I use the word 'enclosed' very loosely however >.>).

See, the only thing that makes Battlefield different to FD are the platforms (and the gimp lip >.>). I think it's entirely a psychological thing that tells people 'Diddy needs an open space to play well'.

Think about it. How long does it take to re-pick up a thrown banana?

You have to approach, and then either dash attack, or any of the other (NinjaLink approved ) methods. To pick up a platformed banana you have to approach, jump and Z-grab.

The advantage of Z-grabbing the banana is that it's instantaneous, and just about the safest way to regain control of a banana. I think this is the main argument. From there, Diddy can immediately throw it from that airborne position, charge a peanut, cancel the popgun into a glide toss on landing, etc.

So many different options. But we have to figure out what's feasible and what's not.
We have to figure out if this is all just theory, or if it's actually practical.

It's quite simple really. Aside from the fact that platforms provide additional escape options from bananas, Diddy effectively cuts off approach options and can virtually call a section of the stage his own. It's not so much that he needs space, but during a MOMENTUM CHANGE, Diddy has space and time to recover and REGAIN momentum. If I change the momentum and put Diddy on defense on a stage like Battlefield or Smashville, he's going to have a hell of a time getting it back. This is not an issue on FD. Diddy has a relatively difficult time REGAINING MOMENTUM on smaller stages.

I'm sure Diddy would perform fine on Battlefield if it were the size of FD, regardless of platforms.

well Z-grabbing is the key in BF, but there some other stuff.
there something that i never see on the diddy videos here, i think is something really important, more in battlefield, throw a banana--> fox trot--->Dsmash,Fsmash,Dtilt.
Doing this, u can get KO in some moments where usually diddy mainers here just dash attack or grab. Z grabbing, throwing the banana just after catch it, fox trot to some smash gives more options than the repeated glidetoss to smash, and, because ur options to glidetoss smash are limited in BF than FD or smashville, fox trot to some attack can be really useful in plattforms stages in general.

I hate all platforms. Even the one on Smashville is always there to take away the bananas.

And Battlefield is my worst stage ever.... I always ban it.

BF, while not as good as FD, is still a pretty good stage for Diddy.

Platforms can help out combos and juggling.

Combo-wise: Dash attack under a platform -> jump & aerial, hitting your opponent and grabbing a banana. There are definitely more, like utilt -> aerial.

Juggling gets a lot easier on BF. Especially since you can control platforms with bananas.

I think on BF Diddy actually has more combo potential than on FD, because on FD all his combos are horizontal whereas on BF he can utilize some the platforms to further combos that have vertical components.

Smashville is also a good Diddy stage, but MK is beast here. He can fly under the stage ridiculously easily. He doesn't even need to glide, a few jumps and a drill rush is sufficient enough. I think the key to winning here might be platform camping when the platform isn't over the main stage. Peanuts with a naner in hand. If MK tries to attack from any direction, you'll have an answer to it. Front or back -> spam peanuts or naners. Above -> toss a naner up and follow it up with an aerial if he ADs. Also it's good if he attacks you from above when the platform is returning to the stage, because you can just drop below and then he's above you with a platform between you for extra cover. If he attacks you from below while you're still offstage, run off the platform to the main stage and pressure him. I think the platform is useful because MK can box in a lot of characters to the edge. Once there, they have trouble getting back past him to the center (this is pretty essential for Diddy because he needs to have some space to regain momentum). The platform gives you some extra breathing room.

as le thien says make battle field your *****. which is true. I think lylat can sometimes be more helpfull then battlefield. The middle platform is more conveniant for short hop z-catch then the middle platforom on battlefield which is higher.

non mk related: Bf is perfect for when diddy when he has to face characters with spammy projectiles( a huge momentum killer)

My best neutral stages now are in order of:

Yoshi Story
Battle Field
Final Destination
Smashville
Lylat

Lylat is as of right now the only stage that I have not found too many big advantages for Diddy. Then again I have only ever played on the stage literally less than 10 times since the game released lolz.



-advent-

Thinkaman said:

If the Diddy players I saw could even slightly close the gap between their performance on FD and other stages, they would be much better. (This applies to most matchups.) We need to figure out what the cuase here is; is it length of the stage, or freedom from platforms? I doubt it is psychological...

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I would argue otherwise. After my crew-mates started catching onto exactly how two-dimensional Diddy's banana game could be, I also spent nearly the entirety of the rest of this past summer operating under the pretense that I would probably never win again on a stage that wasn't Final Destination - especially when I found out about the implementation of the stage strike system in tournament play.

Then, one day, I finally enlightened myself with the glories of Z-grabbing.

I don't know how to approach the rest of this without coming off as completely redundant, so I'm just going to import my exact line of reasoning from a recent Diddy Kong Backroom discussion:

Regarding pastaboy's concern over Final Destination and Smashville being eliminated in the stage strike system: get acclimated with Z-grabbing and make Battlefield your b*tch. I'm serious. Here's how much I love Battlefield now: I was back in Dallas for OU/TX this weekend, and I participated in a Flower Mound tournament against all the best players in Dallas. I was faced with a three-way tie in determining whether or not I wanted to play on FD, BF or SV exactly two times (once against a d4Ba's MK in the Grand Finals and the other against Bwett's Falco/Yoshi in Winner's Finals), and both times I actually opted to strike Final Destination. This confused the p*ss out of both players. =) I won both times Battlefield was chosen.

Needless to say, my neutral stage preferences have shifted dramatically in these last few months. If I had to order it now, it would look like:

1. Battlefield
2. Smashville
3. Final Destination
4. Pokemon Stadium #1
5. Yoshi's Island

I've said it once before, but I'm of the firm belief that platforms are critical to the expansion of Diddy's intricate banana game.

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To elaborate on precisely why a simple technique like Z-grabbing can be so game breaking for Diddy on a previously limiting stage like Battlefield:

• Z-grabbing forces all Diddy mains to consider aerial options. No one realized how much of a wonderful and expansive impact the advent of glide-tossing would be to Diddy's ground game; but conversely, no one was able to predict that most players' proclivity to stay grounded for that reason would eventually become so fatally constraining to the overall development of Diddy's meta-game. Being conditioned to take to the skies more often than you are comfortable with (even if it is just to retreat or retrieve a banana lost on a platform) is the first important step to tightening up a hit-and-run game that will become a critical component to your victory on Battlefield, as well as other platform stages in general.
• It is completely lagless. There are absolutely no cool-down frames associated with this action as there is in catching items with air-dodging or any number of aerial attacks - the item quite literally just materializes in your hand. With good spacing and a decent sense of timing for when it is appropriate to go for a banana elevated on a platform, there is very often little to no risk of punishment.
  • Pressure administered by an opponent from either the ground or air can also be retaliated against with immediate action, either with the quick toss of the banana peel or an aerial attack (given that you execute the attack immediately after grabbing the banana, or you Z-drop the banana first).
• Z-grabbing creates a variety of new offensive and defensive scenarios.
  • Offensively, it allows you to seamlessly retrieve bananas that get lost on platforms due to banana-locking. Even though it's not as swift or reliable as picking up bananas off the ground as they connect with the opponent, it does not eliminate the possibility of follow-up. I would argue that it is in your favor more often than not to actually give your opponent enough time to choose a direction to roll in after slipping on a banana peel and engage him or her in an elaborate tech-chasing ruse. On a small stage like Battlefield, it is often very easy to predict which direction they will instinctively go in order for them to get some breathing room...only for them to eat another banana peel.
  • From a defensive standpoint, there are a ton of options that you can open up for yourself Z-grabbing a banana peel over your opponent and dropping down on the other side of them (aerial cross-ups) or Z-grabbing a banana peel after a full jump and then intentionally DIing off the stage in the face of pressure. Hopefully, I don't need to go into the finer details of why these options are so useful.

Seriously, people - Battlefield is amazing. As long as you familiarize yourself with the other neutral options and similarly-styled counter-picks, the fact that virtually everyone you will ever face in tournament associates Final Destination as his best stage is a misconception that falls into your favor. Run with this and proceed to **** the **** out of them everywhere else imaginable.

In the interest of making this post longer, here is also my assessment on why Smashville is almost equally as awesome:

LOL. I love Smashville for various reasons, but mostly because it's almost equivalent in length to Battlefield, and the spacing awareness that I've developed on Battlefield carries over seamlessly onto Smashville. Simply put, it's much, much easier for me to establish and maintain stage control on these relatively small stages, and helps to assuage some of the issues that arises with characters who have the proclivity to camp since it takes less time and effort to close distance on them.

The floating platform used to be a nuisance, I've trained myself to constantly watch the platform and make note of which direction it goes in. It really comes hand whenever I need to use it as a re-spacing tool whenever I'm in a defensive jam. Even if a banana ends up on the platform on accident, having to retrieve it gives you an added positional and defensive bonus, depending on which direction you're moving in relative to your opponent. Plus, glide-tossing at that high of an elevation while moving in the same direction the platform is allows you to limit your opponent's options from deceivingly great distances. Most of the time, if a banana even makes it that high onto the platform, it's because I purposefully did a retreating Banana Throw and double-jumped onto it.

Final Destination is still a great stage to **** n00bz on, but I no longer consider it an option in tournament play since literally everyone bans that stage against me. Luckily, what may or may not hold true for most Diddy mains (the assumption that Diddy performs the best on Final Destination) is a good bit of misdirection that, lately, has played completely into my favor.

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Diddy is too ****ing good.

Sounds like I should always go for SV when I play MK against Diddy now...

seems like we have more mk users on the diddy boards then actually diddy players

um probably you guys know this but, what the hey ill post it.

on battlefield a good strategy for safely pulling out bananas is getting on the ledge,release, walljump, down b, regrab ledge. then you can ledge hop to zpick up, or fair pickup or whatever. its just a ledgecampy way to get yo nannerz out.


post 666 and its almost halloween, uh oh

If this is known, you're up b > shuttle loop. When you're in the air and you sense a shuttle loop, charge your barrels, if he shuttle loops the barrels automatically hit on contact and it kills him really early especially since he's hit a little bit higher in the air. PWN! It is an even matchup if the diddy knows what to do on all neutral stages IMO. A metaknight that knows how to fight diddy is frustrating and it's a slow, patient battle. Very boring.

hm solid tip chrome il have to try that out, mk's in my area are big users of the shuttle loop

ChromePirate said:

If this is known, you're up b > shuttle loop. When you're in the air and you sense a shuttle loop, charge your barrels, if he shuttle loops the barrels automatically hit on contact and it kills him really early especially since he's hit a little bit higher in the air. PWN! It is an even matchup if the diddy knows what to do on all neutral stages IMO. A metaknight that knows how to fight diddy is frustrating and it's a slow, patient battle. Very boring.

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Obviously don't do this offstage. And use Bair/Uair more. They comout real fast, and I think Uair might beat out MK. Don't go crazy with Fair!

The last tourney I went too, I played a MK on BF. I like it. Sometimes you need a mix-up with the banana game. Short-hop Z catch throws are great for this. I used my popgun to keep him out of the air, used naners on the ground when I could. Wanna the know the real reason I won?

2 kills, every single set of the match, came from Diddy's Rocket Barrel.

When he would approach and use a f-air, bair, nair, or other multi-hit move and he was around 100-110% i would start the rocket barrels up, he would hit, and the multi-hit slash would trigger the barrels and kill him. Pretty darn convenient.

They hit every time?

They usually miss when I try the barrel counter

bludhoundz said:

They hit every time?

They usually miss when I try the barrel counter

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That's because the previous statement is actually false.

Deoxys said:

I'm no authority, but I bet most MKs will agree that we'd rather play Diddy on BF than SV.

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well... SV is one of diddy's fav stages and BF is one of MK's so that would make sense lol. FD or SV? myeh. debatable.

btw... this is a terrible 1000th POST yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay.

whats z grabbing? is it just picking up the items with z?

Yes. Yes it is.

Le_THieN said:

That's because the previous statement is actually false.

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I was asking DUB if every time he did a barrel counter it hit.

I know it doesn't always hit... hell I've had trouble getting it to hit at all.

Is there any specific way to do it which makes it more likely to work, or nah?

bludhoundz said:

I was asking DUB if every time he did a barrel counter it hit.

I know it doesn't always hit... hell I've had trouble getting it to hit at all.

Is there any specific way to do it which makes it more likely to work, or nah?

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LOL, my bad - I meant that whoever made the statement that the barrels hit 100% of the time if it was activated at point-blank range was incorrect.

Hey guys, some of you already know about the thread in the Tacticals about how in depth we can get into breaking down Metaknight. It's gonna be a long slow work in progress but maybe we'll get somewhere further on whether we should ban him or not.

Diddy is probably one of the strongest debated characters of having some sort of chance against MK, so he's one of the first up. I'll need as much in-depth information on this match-up as you guys are willing to lay down so we can all see what Diddy can really do against him.

ChromePirate said:

If this is known, you're up b > shuttle loop. When you're in the air and you sense a shuttle loop, charge your barrels, if he shuttle loops the barrels automatically hit on contact and it kills him really early especially since he's hit a little bit higher in the air. PWN!

Click to expand...

This works especially well when the MK player is at the edge, since if you time it right, you can just spike him straight down. One of my Diddy friends is usually good at shutting down my attacks from the ledge, especially the SL like this, and just aims himself into the stage so that he's too far to punish if he mistimes it.

AlphaZealot said:

Holy ****, the Up B destroys Shuttle loop? ****z...

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Same here. I have to try that!

Le_THieN said:

LOL, my bad - I meant that whoever made the statement that the barrels hit 100% of the time if it was activated at point-blank range was incorrect.

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Le THieN it's all about how you set yourself up. If you get the MK slightly above you when he comes in, I've never had it miss yet. Insane luck? Maybe. But the gap that he has to potentially dodge a barrel is too small to be a factor. Most of them where when I was under a platform and he dropped down for a d-air, f-air. Give it a try sometime, I promise it's more then reliable.

diddy's problem with fd:

falco

The matchup is already set, though.

Diddy Kong vs. Metaknight

DUB said:

Le THieN it's all about how you set yourself up. If you get the MK slightly above you when he comes in, I've never had it miss yet. Insane luck? Maybe. But the gap that he has to potentially dodge a barrel is too small to be a factor. Most of them where when I was under a platform and he dropped down for a d-air, f-air. Give it a try sometime, I promise it's more then reliable.

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All I'm saying is that people are having to go back and modify a lot of these claims in order to fit the actual fact of the matter. That's fine if you have come up with a reliable way to bait aerials from a certain angle in order to improve the success ratio of barrel-countering, but that still doesn't change the fact that this is a drastically different statement than, "Rocket Barrel Blast > Shuttle Loop," which simply is not the product of barrel-countering all the time.

Other than that, I don't really deploy barrel-countering all that much. If you have other useful setups that you would like the share, pleeeeeeeease teach me. =)

Can't you just figure out why Final Destination is so good for Diddy, by making Custom Stages with each a FD character, and the rest of it different.
Then you could get a little further, I think.

imo the only way for diddy to beat MK is simply to be smarter than your opponent. I dont think diddy (or anyone) beats MK on FD (or any legal stage) but that's just me. Luckily most metaknight players aren't that good and just get by because they play metaknight. diddy ***** those kinds of players.

about stages, platforms don't bother diddy against metaknight, but the SIZE of the stage does. That's why we like SV and FD and picto because they're huge. BF is ****ing small and you can not get away from Mk to start any kind of banana ****, you're always within metaknights range on BF, and (if he's good) he's always out of yours.

against pretty much every other characters though I love BF with diddy.

Maybe we need to approach this from a different angle.
Rather than look at what Diddy has, let's look at what MK doesn't have for a second.

The obvious thing MK lacks is a projectile of any kind, whilst Diddy Kong has access to his Peanut Gun and up to two bananas at once (unless you're Advent, in which case you have three bananas).

Diddy is an odd character though, since his bananas are used for combo'ing rather than zoning.

On the other hand, Diddy can use bananas to lay traps. Have you ever noticed how a lot of MK's have trouble picking up bananas? I've seen so many MK's walk up to a banana and slip on it when they try to pick them up. So you can almost guarantee one of two things if the banana is between you and MK:

1. They're going to avoid them
2. They're going to dash attack pick them up
3. They're going to try and pick them up normally

For the first scenario, it just begs a peanut gun to the face, which can screw them over and have them fall on the banana. Or even throw another banana at them as they try to avoid the first one on the ground. Either way the fact that there is a banana on the ground between you and MK is something they have to be weary of.

Predict where they're going to go if they're going to maneuveur around the banana.

For number 2, just remember that for all it is, MK's dash attack is still something predictable, and with reasonable lag (reasonable enough for you to punish). It's a matter of baiting their dash to sheild grab them, or hitting them with your own banana.

The third scenario is rather situational (All of this is situational and not to be taken as gospel mind you) sometimes a banana may have bounced off their shield and it's not to hard for them to take the banana, sometimes they'll approach the banana slowly and try to pick it up.

The point is, you can either capitalize on this by punishing their awkward movement towards the banana which they have to remain weary about since it's still in your control, or watch out in case they're trying to bait you.

This is ALL hypothetical, and really just my attempt at trying to keep this thread alive. A breakdown of a common situation that takes place over just a few seconds.

We need to do more. We have to confirm/debunk everything we can. We need FACTS.

And so far, I've pointed out that MK has no projectile, and given good micromanagement, has a difficult time picking up bananas without being punished for it.

MK can also pick up bananas with SH aerial attacks. Dair being the most notable.

I say if he's going for a banana, you can start up a popgun charge and then cancel it into a glide toss (the first part should discourage them from taking to the air, second punishes if they are on the ground).

I think the popgun is really useful in this match. You can spam peanuts between bananas, and even cancel a peanut charge into a banana toss. More options = more mindgames = more ways to win.

Platforms might be useful in setting up traps on MK. When he's on a platform, he can't attack beneath him unless he starts falling through. If you also have a banana on the platform, he will probably waste time a. avoiding it and b. picking it up, allowing you to punish accordingly.