Excellence
Smash Champion
What are the twenty percent Olimar doesn't shut down?
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"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.
- Thread starter Ray_Kalm
- Start date
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
After fighting Dabuz yesterday, I could say that Olimar is easily one of our worst match-ups. On par with Sheik, Falco, Ice Climbers and Yoshi. Olimar may be as though as Falco for us.
Olimar could completely shutdown our game. We absolutely CAN NOT play our usual bait and trap game against a good spacing Olimar (that's like what, our whole play style gone there?). Pikmans make our laggy moves even laggier, thus easier to punish. We'll be forced to approach at EVERY moment, and when we do we're only making it easier for Olimar.
Wizardkick fails in this match-up. It won't reach a properly spaced Olimar, and it'll go even slower if it clashes with Olimar's Pikmans. Above that, Wizardkick would be the only move we would have hoped for most of the time.
Olimar could grab us "while" we're hanging from the ledge, damage us severly, and even KO and/or edge-gaurd us right after it.. (and) Olimar isn't as easy to edgegaurd himself as it seems.
Above all that, Olimar could sheild grab all our moves, give us an insane amount of damage, knock us off stage, edge-gaurd us. That's how easy it is for an Olimar to beat Ganondorf. If we manage to make it back, we can't hang on the edge for even a second. As I mentioned before, Olimars could easily edge-grab us, get 10-20% or a kill off it (otherwise, punish our RCO).
I'd give this match-up a 100-0 in Olimar's favor, but only if it wasn't for our insane combos/follow-ups after gerudo.
95-05, Olimar's favor.
Olimar could completely shutdown our game. We absolutely CAN NOT play our usual bait and trap game against a good spacing Olimar (that's like what, our whole play style gone there?). Pikmans make our laggy moves even laggier, thus easier to punish. We'll be forced to approach at EVERY moment, and when we do we're only making it easier for Olimar.
Wizardkick fails in this match-up. It won't reach a properly spaced Olimar, and it'll go even slower if it clashes with Olimar's Pikmans. Above that, Wizardkick would be the only move we would have hoped for most of the time.
Olimar could grab us "while" we're hanging from the ledge, damage us severly, and even KO and/or edge-gaurd us right after it.. (and) Olimar isn't as easy to edgegaurd himself as it seems.
Above all that, Olimar could sheild grab all our moves, give us an insane amount of damage, knock us off stage, edge-gaurd us. That's how easy it is for an Olimar to beat Ganondorf. If we manage to make it back, we can't hang on the edge for even a second. As I mentioned before, Olimars could easily edge-grab us, get 10-20% or a kill off it (otherwise, punish our RCO).
I'd give this match-up a 100-0 in Olimar's favor, but only if it wasn't for our insane combos/follow-ups after gerudo.
95-05, Olimar's favor.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Can someone update the match-up chart? A lot of people are getting the wrong opinion off of it.
Collective of Bears
King of Hug Style
TP
Smash Master
Kalm, when you need an approach and all else fails, try a Flight. It works for me... once. Then they see it coming and it never works again. So, can we take all 3 stocks with one successful approach? Even Ganon isn't that badass.
Collective of Bears
King of Hug Style
New matchup chart:
I don't think I missed anything. If I did, I'll fix it.
I don't think I missed anything. If I did, I'll fix it.
TP
Smash Master
We decided Kirby was 45:55 I believe, and Ice Climbers are 05:95. And for Ganon, put EPIC.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Nothing but the Wario and Jigglypuff match-up.New matchup chart:
I don't think I missed anything. If I did, I'll fix it.
45-55 (Wario), 45-55 (Jigglypuff).
That's what we last agreed on.
Excellence
Smash Champion
BLITZKRIEGGGGGGGGGGGG! It's me, DTT. You need to add me on Wifi so we can play sometime. And you can get owned.
Dude what are you saying? You're asking to get combo'd out of your mind.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Also, we've all agreed on 95-05 on the current match-up, right?
You might as well put that up, Commander.
You might as well put that up, Commander.
Collective of Bears
King of Hug Style
Hmmm... Don't seem to recall you. And I saw that type. The King of Evil and my Nades of Justice will set you straight.
Now, here's the matchups:
TP
Smash Master
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
What are you trying to say? This match-up is highly not winnable.
TP
Smash Master
Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize we were in the magical fairy world where a 10:90 disadvantage is no big deal.
I'm saying that this is not as bad as Sheik or Ice Climbers, so it shouldn't have the same number. Would you be happy if Sheik was 96-4, ICs were 95-5, and Olimar was 94-6?
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Well, I'm sorry for not knowing that you had some magical abilities to determine who and who isn't our worst out of those match-up.
I've played all 4 of those characters. Wifi or not. Olimar is easily our worst match-up. He has a lot of more options to shut down our approaches than Falco does.
TP
Smash Master
Well, you are considerably better than me, so I will take your word for it.
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
lol, i swear, doesn't ganon have atleast one good matchup? i feel bad for you guys
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
He's who you call, a true low tier character.
:034:
Smash Hero
You need to watch "Question Everything" more D:
I haven't actually fought against any Olimar players, so have fun on this one! *runs off*
TP
Smash Master
As long as we aren't actually discussing anything, who said Samus is 90:10? I don't think that is even close to correct. I have beaten decent Samuses before. Sure, you have to take about 20 Zairs, 15 missiles, and 10 uncharged shots before you can get a hit in, but it really isn't that bad. Just watch out for the kill moves, choose a stage that helps against camping, and I think it is 75:25 at worst. Does anyone else agree with me?
Our next discussion should be over Pokemon Trainer because he consists of roughly half the blank spots remaining.
Our next discussion should be over Pokemon Trainer because he consists of roughly half the blank spots remaining.
Collective of Bears
King of Hug Style
Sounds good.
Clai
Smash Lord
I was going to ask the exact same thing, and I agree with your judgment. Samus isn't that terrible because once we actually do get inside of her, we can mess her up pretty good, and we can approach her a heck of a lot better than some other characters. I would try and get some serious matches with my training partner, who mains Samus, to illustrate the matchup, but the people you've played are probably a lot better than the person I play with, so I can't help you much.
If we put the Samus matchup at 25:75 as you said, I think this chart is really nicely done. The only change I'd put on it is that I personally think Marth is worse for us than Yoshi is. Marth murders us if he's played correctly.
Olimar, lol, he's so bad for us. He can literally do nothing but grab you and he can win. He can grab us from rediculous ranges, he can run away from our shorthops and pivotgrab when we land, he can grab us out of Wizard's Kick, he can grab you all day long. It's so awful, you can't approach him when he's camping. Period.
Collective of Bears
King of Hug Style
Let's just make it 9000 to -10 and move on.
Excellence
Smash Champion
It's from WAYYYY back. Like Serebii.net way back. xD
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
if you want samus input, i use her as well so ill friendly so you can see what the matchup is like...lol, that will be my third time giving my opinion of a matchup here in that case
TP
Smash Master
There's no need. Once DAD shows up, he'll tell us everything we need to know. MOM is a Samus main.
Ganon does not laugh.
stRIP
Smash Ace
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
I think he meant an "actual" laugh.
Squirrely
Smash Journeyman
This is a bit off-topic but we had a polite discussion in the Toon Link boards when ganon 's turn came around for discussion and they/we determined that it was 35-65 in Toon Link's favor. They have a thread devoted to it on their boards if you want to check it out.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222079
Can we add that to the chart? Or do we need to replicate the discussion here. I figured it was unnecessary since we had several ganons and TL's show up for that and it came to an agreeable conclusion.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=222079
Can we add that to the chart? Or do we need to replicate the discussion here. I figured it was unnecessary since we had several ganons and TL's show up for that and it came to an agreeable conclusion.
Collective of Bears
King of Hug Style
I guess that explains why I don't remember you.
A2ZOMG
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Vs Olimar isn't 90/10 Olimar.
Simply cause when Olimar gets punished, it usually costs him a stock.
That being said, it's still a bad matchup of course. But seriously...you can counterpick stages against him, and there is some dumb stuff you can do to punish him if he makes a dumb mistake since he isn't exactly a speed freak.
His camping doesn't exactly immobilize Ganon, so Olimar has less margin of error than say ICs, Sheik, or Falco to not get punished.
Simply cause when Olimar gets punished, it usually costs him a stock.
That being said, it's still a bad matchup of course. But seriously...you can counterpick stages against him, and there is some dumb stuff you can do to punish him if he makes a dumb mistake since he isn't exactly a speed freak.
His camping doesn't exactly immobilize Ganon, so Olimar has less margin of error than say ICs, Sheik, or Falco to not get punished.
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
no, even if olimar gets punishes that doesn't mean a stock, because whistle armor>ganon, i have witness to that to, if oli whistles right he can pretty much never lose a stock
A2ZOMG
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It's a minor nuisance. It's as minor as reading an air dodge of a bad recovery offstage. Ganondorf has N-air to counter whistle recoveries if he's REALLY desperate, and Olimar still has to either DI well or get edgehogged. Also, Whistle armor isn't going to save you from Flame Choke -> F-tilt. Rather, it's going to actually get you punished severely.
hyperstation
Smash Lord
I won't consign to Kalm's 95-5 claim. I will agree that Olimar is a REALLY tough match-up, but I think that Kalm's only making that claim because he's a self-flagellating masochist who wants to see Ganon as the worst character in the game with exceedingly bad match-up scores only so that when he beats people it's all the more satisfying. I have little to add to the discussion except my suggested revision of the score which should be between 75-25 and 80-20.
A2ZOMG
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*shrug* My only gripe is placing this matchup in the league of Ganon's worst matchups. He has a ton of ****ty matchups, and this is one such matchup, but is it close to being among the worst? Nope.
Olimar doesn't 0-death and he doesn't have any real combos from 0-60. He camps like gay, but his camping doesn't stop you from moving, so at least you can force him to have to be more careful than other characters because he doesn't have as much margin of error for not getting punished.
Olimar doesn't 0-death and he doesn't have any real combos from 0-60. He camps like gay, but his camping doesn't stop you from moving, so at least you can force him to have to be more careful than other characters because he doesn't have as much margin of error for not getting punished.
Ray_Kalm
Smash Master
Wrong. His camping DOES stop Ganon from moving, oh and as we couldn't move already. His projectile's style completely wreck our bait and trap game. Aerial approaches would receive a UpB. Basically, there's nothing we could do to approach in this match-up, and there's tuns of things Olimar could do against us.
Hyper, It's nothing like that. I'm only stating what is true.
Clai
Smash Lord
I consider myself pretty optimistic about Ganon's matchups, but I really don't see how Ganon has any resemblance of a chance in this one. If you can tell me what Ganon can do that's not going to get him: A) grabbed, B) up+smashed, or C) up+B'd, then I will think differently. At this rate, though, I think Olimar completely shuts him down. If you beat an Olimar player, then the Olimar didn't camp hard enough. It's really that simple.
Squirrely
Smash Journeyman
Air dodge through Olimar's up-b then grab his ***. Can probably only pull it off once but it's something? It certainly won't change the game's outcome. Although I've occasionally had some luck with grab->dthrow->sour-spotted DA-> choke->followup(I'd dsmash in this case).
hyperstation
Smash Lord
I haven't tested against high level olis, but I think BDCed Air Dodge (or UAir to kick approaching pikmin) -> Spot Dodge could be a god send.