"The Triforce of Knowledge" Ganon's Match-Up Guide: Character Review, Kirby.

[@HomE]

I played a PT main for about a month and he was the only person i really got the play who had any skills. so i mained Ganon, and he mained PT, I would say I have a pretty good idea of the match-up. I agree with most things ive read so far, but, I have some thoughts on Squirtle. Squirtle is a *****, my friend quickly learned that if he didnt stop attacking me, it was VERY difficult (and frustrating) for me to move or attack. he would hit me about 6-7 times for every hit i would get in... long story short, in my experiance a VERY aggressive Squirtle is really difficult for Ganon to deal with.

 

[AfroThunderRule]

Can anyone here tell me why Jiggs and Kirby is a 6-4 disadvantage....?

I thought it would be worse....

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Personally,I think Charizard is better than Bowser,if he did not have stamina.
But An aggressive squirtle may be trouble,just try to Uair or get away.Shieldgrab stops him and play by punishing him.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I might not know much about Pokemon Trainer but, A2zomg, you're completely wrong about Charizard.

Charizard has massive (and more) range in most of his attacks (this includes his grab), more power, less start-up time, and less lag. He also has very fast speed and a spectacular recovery on his side. Above all that, he's technically heavier than us horizontally, but not as heavy on the vertical side.

In other words, he's a much better version of Ganondorf.

Charizard has more than a 60:40 advantage (as most of you were saying) on Ganondorf.

I give that Charizard has the grab range. However, on the other hand, you can punish a ton of his stuff with Flame Choke.

He is only fast in terms of run speed, and his ground options when running are horrible.

The only two of his attacks that matter which are faster are his Jab and D-tilt. Everything else is about the same speed. His aerials are all worse, except for probably F-air.

If you think Charizard has good recovery, you're absolutely crazy. Charizard has one of the worst recoveries in the game after the people who CLEARLY suck at recovery like Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Link, and the pure tethers. His recovery is bad. Like, as bad as Ness's. It's good in terms of raw distance, but absolute garbage at everything else. He is very unsafe and slow offstage and can't do much to defend against people who want to jump out and edgeguard him.

He isn't a "much" better version of Ganondorf by any means. He's only slightly better. Now a character who is a much better version of Ganondorf. That would be Bowser. Like, in terms of EVERYTHING.

He isn't safer to the point where it makes a significant difference. His recovery isn't better to the point where he won't get edgeguarded easily in many situations. Really...he doesn't have a significant advantage on Ganon as far as I'm concerned.

 

[TheREALShadowChaos]

Same thoughts here.


If we have an advantage...AMAGAD

wtf.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pXfHLUlZf4

If its true

What about Captain Falcon?

 

[Bestiarius]

I give that Charizard has the grab range. However, on the other hand, you can punish a ton of his stuff with Flame Choke.

He is only fast in terms of run speed, and his ground options when running are horrible.

The only two of his attacks that matter which are faster are his Jab and D-tilt. Everything else is about the same speed. His aerials are all worse, except for probably F-air.

If you think Charizard has good recovery, you're absolutely crazy. Charizard has one of the worst recoveries in the game after the people who CLEARLY suck at recovery like Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Link, and the pure tethers. His recovery is bad. Like, as bad as Ness's. It's good in terms of raw distance, but absolute garbage at everything else. He is very unsafe and slow offstage and can't do much to defend against people who want to jump out and edgeguard him.

He isn't a "much" better version of Ganondorf by any means. He's only slightly better. Now a character who is a much better version of Ganondorf. That would be Bowser. Like, in terms of EVERYTHING.

He isn't safer to the point where it makes a significant difference. His recovery isn't better to the point where he won't get edgeguarded easily in many situations. Really...he doesn't have a significant advantage on Ganon as far as I'm concerned.

Dude, you know absolutely nothing about Charizard. I would be laughing hysterically if you were joking, but you seem to be serious. Charizard has the best recovery of any heavy character: 3 jumps, a glide, and then Fly with about the same range as Ganon's, except it attacks better and has Super Armor frames. His recovery is not even close to being as bad as Ness'. And, what do you mean when you say it's good at raw distance, but garbage at everything else? Isn't distance one of the main deciding factors at how good a recovery is? Plus, Charzard is better than Bowser in a few ways. One, his Flamethrower lasts 2 seconds longer. Two, if you get hit by the rock when we pull it out, which isn't all that hard for a decent PT to do, you will take 45% and if we follow with just a hint of Flame, you're in the red fast. Bowser has nothing that attacks that hard, except he can Bowsercide, which kills him too. Rock Smash is a pretty good option out of dashing, and his dash attack is not absolutely horrible, though it is not by any means great. Charizard is fast when attacking. All of his tilts, especially d-tilt, are extremely fast for a heavyweight. So, you're right when you say that his Jabs and d-tilt are faster, but what do you ean by saying their the only ones that matter? All of his aerials are faster than Ganon's, and he has the same options to spike. Plus, a few f-airs, and Ganon is way past the point of no return. Almost anything Ganon can do, Charizard can do better, faster, and stronger. He way outclasses Ganon, and if you don't think this, you have never played a PT worth his salt. Oh, and your first point, that Flame Choke is great at punishing almost everything Zard does, you must think that Charzard has a ton more lag than he does. Flame Choke will almost always eat Flamethrower and Charzard will get the much better end of it. His attacks have little enough lag so that, unless he is pretty much touching Ganon, Ganon's Flame Choke will get punished, if not by Flamethrower, then by a Jab or tilt. Ganon has a horrible fight aginst Charizard. Even your fellow Ganon mains agree.

Edit: And t-block, it's next to impossible to predict, much less outpredict, a good Squirtle. Ganon has a terrible time trying to just go even with him. read @HomE's post. He sums it up well.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

I give that Charizard has the grab range. However, on the other hand, you can punish a ton of his stuff with Flame Choke.

He is only fast in terms of run speed, and his ground options when running are horrible.

The only two of his attacks that matter which are faster are his Jab and D-tilt. Everything else is about the same speed. His aerials are all worse, except for probably F-air.

If you think Charizard has good recovery, you're absolutely crazy. Charizard has one of the worst recoveries in the game after the people who CLEARLY suck at recovery like Ganondorf, Captain Falcon, Link, and the pure tethers. His recovery is bad. Like, as bad as Ness's. It's good in terms of raw distance, but absolute garbage at everything else. He is very unsafe and slow offstage and can't do much to defend against people who want to jump out and edgeguard him.

He isn't a "much" better version of Ganondorf by any means. He's only slightly better. Now a character who is a much better version of Ganondorf. That would be Bowser. Like, in terms of EVERYTHING.

He isn't safer to the point where it makes a significant difference. His recovery isn't better to the point where he won't get edgeguarded easily in many situations. Really...he doesn't have a significant advantage on Ganon as far as I'm concerned.

Charizard attacks that are fast
Fair
Bair
Uair
Jab
Grab
Dtilt
Ftilt
Utilt
Up smash

These attacks come out fast and do not have much ending lag.Bair is his best aerial.

I agree that his recovery sucks so no problem there.

 

[Bestiarius]

Charizard's recovery is really very good. Read my post, the one that's just before yours.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Charizard's recovery is really very good. Read my post, the one that's just before yours.

I would'nt say real good,maybe decent.Raw disatance may be a factor,but A2ZMOG has a point about punishing him.DDD recovery is alot of disatance,but by no means he is better than someone like Sonic and GW.Fly is a great move,but those three jumps are not much if he is gimped.

 

[Bestiarius]

Zard is more likely to gimp than be gimped. fair, bair, and dair are awesome. Plus with his three jumps and fair, he can do a sicknasty WoP.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Zard is more likely to gimp than be gimped. fair, bair, and dair are awesome. Plus with his three jumps and fair, he can do a sicknasty WoP.

LOL maybe I should try gimping with him,but his recovery is not godly.Even if he survives,he may take damage from an attempted gimp.His recovery is good at best.You have to accept the recovery weaknesses.A2ZOMG went overboard with the Ness comment though.

 

[Bestiarius]

OK, I'll give you that. I never said godly. It's just the best heavyweight recovery except maybe, maybe DDD. I just think it is very good, better than just good, but not anything like Metaknight. That recovery is definitely amazing.

 

[_clinton]

Boy I like it when people bring up the words Ness' recovery in threads...I think I would rather have Ness' recovery than 50% of the other recoveries in this game...but whatever...

 

[Bestiarius]

No, see, if the Thunder Ball hits anything else, it disappears and Ness falls to his doom. It's good . . . if you can get it to hit him. And that's a big "if."

 

[_clinton]

No, see, if the Thunder Ball hits anything else, it disappears and Ness falls to his doom. It's good . . . if you can get it to hit him. And that's a big "if."

It takes less then 50 frames total to get it to hit him in my fastest time doing it...and it is far more open for how you can use it than most of the recoveries in this game...it really is your own fault most of the time IMO if you get gimped from someone eating the thunder...

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

It takes less then 50 frames total to get it to hit him in my fastest time doing it...and it is far more open for how you can use it than most of the recoveries in this game...it really is your own fault most of the time IMO if you get gimped from someone eating the thunder...

I just hit when they second jump and try to footstool them,It works if you can get it.PK thunder comes out at the top so...
Plus Sandbag>Ness

and ROB is a million times better than DDD.(In recovery)

 

[Teronist09]

I learned that Zard's dtilt kills near the edge at 80%+ Scary.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

Why do people keep saying that Ganon has the advantage of killing Squirtle really easily? I mean he can but he's not really going to is he? You're missing the point of Pokemon trainer. Squirtle can just Switch to Ivy when he gets a bit higher in percentage. And then not only is Squirtle not getting killed, but Ivy's not getting gimped either. What about Squirtle at low enough percents whereyou can't kill him? Mistakes against Ganon are deadly but Ganon will not have a fun time playing against a skilled and careful Squirtle. His speed and combos can be annoying. Also I think I saw someone mention Hydroplaning being easy to deal with? Well yeah it is the Up Smash is great for sliding under people coming down for a good surprise kill but not too hard to deal with against a grounded opponent. Just remember that you can't just Up Smash out of it, you can do tons of stuff, Jabs, Grabs etc. It's pretty versatile and if they use a good range of Shellshifted options it's unpredictable and therefore hard to deal with. You could probably kill with a Warlock Punch I guess but that really is a blind shot in the dark and not going to happen, Stomping his recovery however is possible. Squirtle's Surf is pretty safe from the front due to the water but vulnerable from above and behind. Hopping over and stomping can really mess up Squirtle's day. Squirtle can still recover safely je just has to be careful as a mistake can hurt a lot.

Ivysaur can be gimped at low percentages sure but she can gimp Ganon just as well so it doesn't make or break the matchup. Ivysaur's range is good. Razor Leaf is not a big problem at all but you'll still get hit by a couple in a game and that's never a bad thing for Ivy. Back air might not hurt much but it's tough to get inside and 10 Back airs certainly does hurt, and if you still can't get inside Ivy's range she can do 10 more. And it's not all Back air. She has a lot of ranged option and some can kill. Getting inside Ivy's range can be a nightmare but if you approach it right it can be done. Getting inside Ivy's range however does not mean victory. She's real good up close to. Bullet Seed's first hit can be SDI'd sure but it's still a brilliant punisher/interrupter and there are ways of landing it without the first hitbox connecting too. Ganon hates Bullet Seed just as much as everything else does. Not to mention Neutral Air being real good for just about everything, Up Tilt being not too scary on it's own but having some great followups and Forward Tilt's good speed and Shield Pressure. I don't see to many Ivy's that use Jabs. In short Ivy is real good up close too.

Charizard is probably Ganon's least favourite of the 3. He is heavy. He is fast. He is Strong. His recovery is good, not good good, but definately above average good. It's not a weakness in this matchup for sure. Flamethrower doesn't need to do too much damage or even land at all ever. It can just stop many of Ganon's approaches if you time it right. It can and will be annoying for Ganon if used correctly. Charizard's air options are decent in both range and strength. Charizard generally comes out on top in the air. Charizards Down Air is pretty slow so you can do a little Up Air juggling but it's got a real big disjoint so it's a big threat to your recovery. Avoid at all costs. Beack Air is great Forward air if spaced correctly is also good. Forward Smash isn't too good, Charizard has enough kill options to have no need for such a slow move. Up Smash is very good. It's an extremely fast smash. Charizard has a simply brilliant Grab. You'll probably get grabbed a lot. Also ZOMG ROCK SMASH!!11 I can't see how his matchup could be anything but a small advantage to Charizard. He's not much better at anything but he IS better at everything. Even killing in this mtchup IMO because of how much easier to land his kill moves will be.

I'd say PT has between a 55:45 and 60:40 on Ganon. I don't care for individual Pokemon numbers because Pokemon Trainer isn't about individual Pokemon.

*I won't be responding to or even reading the posts of A2ZOMG in this or any matchup discussion*

 

[Squirrely]

45:55 is looking to be the big number.

Hooray for progress!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zard is more likely to gimp than be gimped. fair, bair, and dair are awesome. Plus with his three jumps and fair, he can do a sicknasty WoP.

I don't care that he gets gimped or not. He's probably going to get outright KOed because his recovery is predictable and vulnerable as hell. Or he's going to take massive damage against anyone that can combo offstage. He doesn't get to the ledge nearly as well as most characters either due to his Up-B being terrible. If he gets tipman U-aired, he's not making it back either. His jumps don't take him high enough to compensate for that.

Charizard has terrible recovery. Distance =/= good recovery. Gliding =/= good recovery. What matters in recovery is having options that can consistently protect you from edgeguards. Charizard doesn't have ANY good options for this.

This is also why ZSS is considered to have an excellent recovery despite not getting tremendous distance. Try intercepting a smart ZSS. You literally can't because she always has an option that will beat you out if you try. If you know where Charizard wants to go, just attack and he can rarely do anything about it but air dodge.

The best heavyweight recovery is either DDD or Snake's. DDD can keep you away with safe aerials, and his Up-B is difficult to punish with KO moves. Snake has a lot of options like the C4 jump and B reversal to avoid getting punished by KO moves. Neither of their recoveries are all that good, but they are better than Charizards in that they can better avoid getting punished if they do their recovery right. Snake also beats out both DDD and Charizard in terms of distance.

EDIT: Yeah, ROB is better that those and he's heavy.

 

[SSJ5Goku8932]

Noone ever notices ROB for some reason.

Edit: never mind

Well anyways anyone else have anything to say?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I dunno, I really think Squirtle is the toughest of Ganon to deal with. I mean he's a REALLY small and fast target, and he's in the air a lot, so it's not easy to connect with Ganon's out of shield game. Not forgetting Squirtle combos a lot and that kinda can hurt when he edgeguards you.

He also has Water Gun, which is gay on Ganon's recovery. Waterfall is also somewhat annoyingly difficult to U-air edgeguard.

After Squirtle comes Ivysaur who camps Ganon, which is gay, but not quite as gay as the fact Squirtle is small and mobile. Then after that is Charizard who plays like most heavyweights, and doesn't have THAT much to distinguish himself vs Ganon except like a few gimmicks on his special moves.

So yeah in terms of difficulty Squirtle > Ivysaur > Charizard. Like....Ganon clearly has at least a 6/4 disadvantage vs Squirtle. Vs Ivysaur, it's no greater than 6/4. Vs Charizard, it's pretty close to even IMO.

 

[T-block]

Edit: And t-block, it's next to impossible to predict, much less outpredict, a good Squirtle. Ganon has a terrible time trying to just go even with him. read @HomE's post. He sums it up well.

Eh...maybe I'm overestimating a really good Ganondorf, or maybe I'm just not careful enough whenever I play against him, but it's unrealistic not to expect to be hit a few times in a stock, and with Ganondorf, a couple hits is all it takes to reverse momentum. I'd definitely switch Squirtle out at around 70% at the latest.

And after reading the Charizard discussions, I think I agree that the balance is more towards Charizard favour. Flamethrower and his grab range really cut down on Ganondorf's possible approaches, and zard has the range and speed to back that up.

 

[Bestiarius]

I didn't say Squirtle wouldn't be hit, just he'd be hit much less. And A2ZOMG, were you suggesting that Ganon has a good chance of Gimping Charizard? Because Charizard, though you think his recovery sucks, certainly does not have a worse recovery than Ganon. If Charizard's recovery is predictable, Ganon's is set in stone.

And yes, I didn't think about ROB, just because I always forget he's a heavyweight. And Snake's is better, too, but I'm not so sure about DDD's. Snake can C4 himself in order to get his up-b back, so his is better. My bad on that note.

 

[T-block]

Yeah that's pretty much it. Charizard's recovery is on the predictable side. U-air is no match for Ganondorf's d-air, and you can't always rely on Up+B to get you past the spike, but Ganondorf definitely has it much worse than Charizard, and his recovery makes it easier for Charizard to land the spike. And Charizard has no troubles getting Ganondorf off the edge either.

 

[_clinton]

I just hit when they second jump and try to footstool them,It works if you can get it.PK thunder comes out at the top so...
Plus Sandbag>Ness

I find it funny that your option of dealing with Ness that is so flawless actually works with a lot of other characters as well...but whatever

 

[Lex Crunch]

I try to make it a point that after 100%, try very hard not to get grabbed. It will either kill Ganondorf, or put him in a provocative ledge spot. Defensive TS's seem to work for that. Unfortunately, that's all I've got.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I didn't say Squirtle wouldn't be hit, just he'd be hit much less. And A2ZOMG, were you suggesting that Ganon has a good chance of Gimping Charizard? Because Charizard, though you think his recovery sucks, certainly does not have a worse recovery than Ganon. If Charizard's recovery is predictable, Ganon's is set in stone.

His recovery is very bad. It's only better than Ganon, CF's, Link's, and the tethers. Not even by all that much. His midair jumps and glide don't help him nearly as much as one would suspect.

Ganon's recovery yes....it LITERALLY is set in stone. He has two real options. Forward-B, and hope his opponent doesn't know how to space and take them down with him if they edgeguard. Up-B, and pray he has enough space for the option to not get edgehogged. If you're not getting some kind of hit on Ganon's recovery and gimping him at some point, you pretty much suck.

Charizard might get gimped slightly less, but he really isn't avoiding many more hits than Ganon would once offstage.

The thing that Ganon can do that is somewhat unique offstage is that he has a reliable semi-spike that has good range. The thing about Charizard is that a semi-spike absolutely KILLS his recovery due to his jumps and Up-B sucking. So yes, Ganon can gimp Charizard pretty well offstage.

On the other hand, if you're any good, a well-placed F-air will not only hit Ganon out of his Up-B, but make it very hard for him to make it back even if he DIs.

Seriously my whole point is that Charizard doesn't really stand out much against Ganondorf...no seriously....he doesn't have anything *significantly* better as far as I'm concerned. Well, he has better standing grab range. Ganon has better combos and juggling. Everything else from there is pretty irrelevant. The other thing that sorta deserves mention is that Flamethrower is dumb, but can be SDIed by a good player.

 

[T-block]

How does Ganondorf have better combos than Charizard ._.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

How does Ganondorf have better combos than Charizard ._.

All of Ganondorf's sloppish, but true "combos" do around 30%+. That maybe why.

 

[:034:]

Also true combo's from Flame Choke

 

[Bestiarius]

Things Charizard has that are better than Ganondorf:
fair
bair
Flamethrower
Rock Smash
glide (which does help. A lot. Ganon's recovery would not be as set in stone if he had it, plus it allows Charizard to glide under a stage like Battlefield and recover on the other side if the opponent is edgehogging)
Fly (SAF)
ftilt
dtilt
grab range
grab release
And dair is just as good as Ganon's.

Ray Kalm, are we supposed to switch to Ivysaur now?

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Things Charizard has that are better than Ganondorf:
fair
bair
Flamethrower
Rock Smash
glide (which does help. A lot. Ganon's recovery would not be as set in stone if he had it, plus it allows Charizard to glide under a stage like Battlefield and recover on the other side if the opponent is edgehogging)
Fly (SAF)
ftilt
dtilt
grab range
grab release
And dair is just as good as Ganon's.

Ray Kalm, are we supposed to switch to Ivysaur now?

Well, you don't have to specifically talk about "it", but the discussions should mainly focus on "it" from now.

 

[_clinton]

Things Charizard has that are better than Ganondorf:
fair
bair
Flamethrower
Rock Smash
glide (which does help. A lot. Ganon's recovery would not be as set in stone if he had it, plus it allows Charizard to glide under a stage like Battlefield and recover on the other side if the opponent is edgehogging)
Fly (SAF)
ftilt
dtilt
grab range
grab release
And dair is just as good as Ganon's.

Ray Kalm, are we supposed to switch to Ivysaur now?

Are you trying to say Rock Smash is better than Flame Choke?

And how is the grab release better? The only ones with any difference in it for recovery time are DK, Ness, and Lucas.

And I'm pretty sure Charizard doesn't have a better Dair as well...and Dtilt/Ftilt

 

[Squirrely]

Things Charizard has that are better than Ganondorf:
fair
bair
Flamethrower
Rock Smash
glide (which does help. A lot. Ganon's recovery would not be as set in stone if he had it, plus it allows Charizard to glide under a stage like Battlefield and recover on the other side if the opponent is edgehogging)
Fly (SAF)
ftilt
dtilt
grab range
grab release
And dair is just as good as Ganon's.

Ray Kalm, are we supposed to switch to Ivysaur now?

There are several things I don't agree with at all.

First of all, Charizard's Flamethrower and Rock Smash are indeed better than Ganondorf's Flamethrower and Rock Smash. Oh wait. Apparently that was a dumb thing to say. I'll instead refer to them as Charizard's neutral B and side-B. Yes I'd trade for Charizards neutral B over Ganon's for reasons obvious. The side-B is not such an obvious choice. The rock smash can do very good damage and can kill if sweet-spotted but has very few follow-ups and has a slow start-up and finish. Flame choke does ok damage and can kill from as low as 0% (along with you) if successful near a ledge. It also has tons of follow-ups and allows for tech chasing. I'd probably take Ganon's side-B over Charizards.

D-tilt is pretty close. They're about equal in terms of range, damage and speed and both sweetspot at the tip. Charizard's knocks away horizontally if sweet-spotted, Ganon's goes vertical. I wouldn't say Charizard is any better in this department.

F-tilt is also pretty close. They have compareable speed, power, knockback and range. You can angle Charizard's, which I always like having the option of doing, but Ganon's knock the target more horizontally which can potentially kill people earlier (angles you know) and screw over people with poor horizontal recoveries like Ike, Link, Ganon, etc. I think I'd choose Ganon's F-tilt.

Charizard's D-air is certainly not as good as Ganon's. Where'd that even come from? As an attack on stage Charizard's can't even compete. Ganon's does more damage, has more hit-stun and can lead into a myriad of other attacks. Also it can be short-hopped canceled and is notorious as an on-stage kill move. Off-stage I'd also go with Ganon's since it is simply more powerful. It will kill earlier.

Everything else you listed (fair, bair, gliding, the up-b and grab game) I'd trade, sure. I'd also trade for Charizard's ground movement speed over Ganon's.

But next time think before you just rattle off your best moves and claim them as superior to Ganondorf's.

 

[Xiahou Dun]

The side-B is not such an obvious choice. The rock smash can do very good damage and can kill if sweet-spotted but has very few follow-ups and has a slow start-up and finish. Flame choke does ok damage and can kill from as low as 0% (along with you) if successful near a ledge. It also has tons of follow-ups and allows for tech chasing. I'd probably take Ganon's side-B over Charizards.

Rock Smash isn't ultimate? Madness!

Yeah I can't be bothered to debate it, if you feel Ganon's Tech Chase abilities mean THAT much then each to his own. They MAY be on par. There is absolutely no way Ganon's is better then Rock Smash by any margin deemed notable though. It's either equal or Rock Smash no question.

D-tilt is pretty close. They're about equal in terms of range, damage and speed and both sweetspot at the tip. Charizard's knocks away horizontally if sweet-spotted, Ganon's goes vertical. I wouldn't say Charizard is any better in this department.

F-tilt is also pretty close. They have compareable speed, power, knockback and range. You can angle Charizard's, which I always like having the option of doing, but Ganon's knock the target more horizontally which can potentially kill people earlier (angles you know) and screw over people with poor horizontal recoveries like Ike, Link, Ganon, etc. I think I'd choose Ganon's F-tilt.

If you say Ganon's Forward Tilt is better then Charizards because of the more Horizontal knockback then at least admit Charizard's Down Tilt is better for the same reason. Makes sense no?

Charizard's D-air is certainly not as good as Ganon's. Where'd that even come from? As an attack on stage Charizard's can't even compete. Ganon's does more damage, has more hit-stun and can lead into a myriad of other attacks. Also it can be short-hopped canceled and is notorious as an on-stage kill move. Off-stage I'd also go with Ganon's since it is simply more powerful. It will kill earlier.

Ganon's is certainly miles better on stage. Thus overall. But Charizard's is close enough to equal to Ganon's off stage. They both have enough power to kill almost anyone really early and the extra power on Ganon's just doesn't make much difference at all.

 

[Squirrely]

Rock Smash and Flame Choke is apples and orange to me. I could probably care less which move I had to pick.

Touchee on the tilts, I'll admit that I'd personally rather have horizontal knockback over vertical. Still probably too close to call overall though. For me anyways.

 

[Ray_Kalm]

Ganon's is certainly miles better on stage. Thus overall. But Charizard's is close enough to equal to Ganon's off stage. They both have enough power to kill almost anyone really early and the extra power on Ganon's just doesn't make much difference at all.

If you say Ganon's Forward Tilt is better then Charizards because of the more Horizontal knockback then at least admit Charizard's Down Tilt is better for the same reason. Makes sense no?

Yeah, that sure made a lot of sense.

 

[TP]

Guys, this discussion is completely irrelevant to the matchup. Can we get back on track?

 

[Steeler]

the longer i'm on smashboards, the dumber matchup discussions become (i'm not helping any, as you will soon see)

hey guys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDW4OevZ9FQ

rock smash is ****ing good

better than murder choke? choke's damage is guaranteed but rock smash's easily rivals it...and surpasses it sometimes if you are a pokemon master. rock smash is overall more useful in more situations as a spacer, imo. it comes out on frame TWO ffs. this means if you hit the main boulder before charizard headbutts it, as early as FRAME 2, you take a good chunk of damage.

charizard Up B has super armor which, for example, saves my *** frequently against meta knights. DI up and charizard can rock smash on the way down to make the passage a little safer if the opponent is aggressively jumping out to get ya.

charizard's recovery is mediocre to above average.

anyway

how many safe moves does ganondorf have?? lack of safe moves = bullet seed bait. razor leaf is a pain in the ***, bair is a pain in the ***, ftilt/dtilt is a pain in the ***, bullet seed is simply **** in the ***. nair is a very good move and can be used to punish if bullet seed is too risky. ivy has good shield pressure.

ivy spacing is effective in this matchup. ftilt/dtilt/jab blah blah hits gdorf out of murder choke. it's at least "60-40" advantage ivysaur.

honestly i think all three pokemon have at least a slight advantage, and would be surprised if not at least one pokemon was in 65-35 range.

honestly ivysaur and squirtle can both be really really gay to ganondorf with a lead. ivysaur just plain forces ganondorf to approach with razor and can play keep away with big, disjointed, fairly quick hitboxes.

but

YOU HAVE NOT SEEN GAY UNTIL YOU SEE SQUIRTLE DANCE AND JUMP ALL AROUND YOU, SQUIRTING ITS **** ON YOU, FORMING AN IMPENETRABLE WALL THAT YOU ARE DEFENSELESS TO STOP.