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Stop trying to change how GW is played and instead...Get better.

Hylian

Not even death can save you from me
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First of all, let me ask you a question.

Why would you want to change how a character is played, when he is ranked 4th on the tier list and probably the best character in teams play? What exactly would motivate you to do that?

Some people may be frustrated at the fact that they don't seem to be improving. If you look at other character you will notice very specific things that become more well known against certain characters such as Marth's dtilt frame trap or warios Dthrow CG... There always seems to be tricks popping up with characters to deal with things they are have trouble with.

When GW players look for these tricks on the boards...they don't find any.

You know why?

It's because GW is a really ****ing good character. GW doesn't have to rely on any gimmicks to win a match. He doesn't have to approach many match-ups too differently compared to most other characters. The things that work with GW...work.

If you are one of the people that has started having more trouble in tournaments or against your friends, it's because they are learning the match-up. When GW starts to get punished for slipping up or being predictable then you will notice a durastic change in how often you are winning. This is because GW is so light. He just can't take constant punishment. You CAN'T let your opponents read you. DON'T dig your own grave.

We don't need to be looking for new ways to play GW. Those will come as we IMPROVE. By looking at our best options in various situations we develop a sense of what should be done in most situations. Following this road leads to innovation. By learning the appropriate response to an opponents move and useing it consistantly you learn WHY it works. This helps you understand your character a lot better.

You can know everything you want to about your character and then still lose to a mindlessly agressive player. Combining application and knowledge often proves to be more difficult then people first anticipate.

Lets take this a step further.

Knowing the correct response to your opponents moves isn't enough. People often learn how they should deal with a character and think they are set. Thing like this often allow smarter players to create baiting oppertunites very often in the match. For example, your opponent knows your best option vs their approach. So they approach you, and space horribly intentionally. You respond as normal, but don't take into account thier spacing since you assume they want to approach correctly and they punish you. So stop relying on character attributes to win matches. Instead, try and learn your opponents attributes instead.

A good way to start doing this is to figure out what your opponent is supposed to do against you. If they know something will work, then generally they will abuse it. Know your opponents best options, and try and turn that into your advantage. This can also include conditioning your opponent to react a certain way throughout the match or set.

I will use an example from a recent set in tournament with a snake player who I have never beaten until recently with GW. At hobo 11 I had to play him first round. Whenever I approached his snake with bair he would drop a nade. If I got hit by it then I would immediatly dair to try and catch him following me up. This worked once, and then he caught on. Even though I noticed he caught on, I still did it a few more times and tried to space so he couldn't punish me. Now, GW has a lot of trouble killing snake because it's really hard to hit snake with a smash attack when they are nade camping. When my opponent was at a high % on his last stock I was at a pretty low %. I jumped at him backwards and he sheilded a nade. Now, I could of avoided the nade with good spacing, but I intentionally hit it. I knew that he knew I would dair afterwards, and I did. As soon as I could I used dair. The difference was that this time I slowfalled the dair. When he noticed that he dropped his shield as I was right above him in attempt to utilt me. I naired as soon as I got out of the key animation though and since I was right above him and he just dropped his sheild I hit him with the first few hits, then hit the ground and dsmashed him to win the game. This was done by conditioning my opponent to react a certain way to my faults, and then take advantage of the fact.

So start learning your opponents, not just your character. Learn thier best options vs you, how they should react, and how you can punish that. Keep in mind things that work and expand on those. There is no point in trying to build a bridge when we can just take the boat.

New things will come from getting better. Don't just assume everything we have learned so far is useless. Expand on the things that already work. Use them until your opponent figures out how to beat it. Then counter-act. This will develop GW more then any tech that you will find.


Happy smashing :).
 

-Mars-

Smash Hero
Joined
Jul 26, 2007
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UTAH
I don't even play G&W and I have to agree.........this is applicable to all characters.
 

revengeska

Smash Apprentice
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Nov 18, 2007
Messages
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Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
I'm sure you're right Hylian, though that perhaps has a massive learning curve to it. I personally continue to have a difficult time against my friend's Wolf, and I've played him tons of times, to the point I think I know Wolf pretty well. However, all the strategies and adaptation to his strategies that I've tried have failed. I recently took up Falco to deal with this matchup. Even though G&W supposedly has an advantage, I don't see it. I've even lost to little kids who were playing Wolf(seriously).

It's a matter of learning how to learn, and it's something that, after several months of playing tournaments, I still have failed to figure out. Using Falco I think has actually helped my game with G&W, because I've had to become a faster player and a little more patient. I haven't played decent competition with G&W since then however, so I'm not sure how much better I'll do.

Those are the personal problems I've had. So Hylian, how do you learn how to learn?
 

B0mbe1c

Smash Lord
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Maryland
Wall of text.. -__-
I read, dont worry. and it was a good read. Learned some things. :D
 

cutter

Smash Champion
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Jun 4, 2008
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Getting drilled by AWPers
I read the whole thing, and I definately agree with you Hylian.

Once I couldn't find any techs like 4-5 months ago, I was just like "screw it G&W doesn't need that ****".

And it still holds true today.
 

K 2

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
1,920
Location
Tennessee
Wow. You totally changed my outlook on G&W, Hylain. I was trying to get people to try to discover new techs, and urge people to change G&W's game, but you were right, why change something when it works. As you said, G&W is 4th, which is effing good. And as you said again, G&W doesn't need fancy tricks to win.
 

The Pink Mist

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 29, 2008
Messages
12
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MA
hes fully right, i dont see why people have a problem with G&W hes iss purely one of the best and most powerfull in the game. His moved are fantastic and deliver a powerful punch that sometimes can't be stopped. What happens when you find a match-up you just dont think works out for you? You keep playing it. Set up a lvl 9 computer and fight it like crazy and learn how to counter that match-up. Yes sometimes it may be that that match-up just isn't good for you, but you will at least be a little bit better at facing them.
 

Neb

Smash Lord
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Melbourne, FL
So start learning your opponents, not just your character. Learn thier best options vs you, how they should react, and how you can punish that.
This.

But, tbh, I wasn't agreeing with the "lets change teh way G&W is played".
I was more for just advancing his strategies, etc.

btw.
Nice sig, Hylian, :).
 

Mr. Escalator

G&W Guru
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MrEscalator
About time, Hylian. I was going to make a large post in the group to respond to Cutter and Neb's recent posts, but I don't feel the desperate need to now :p

Anyways, it was a good read, though doesn't change my outlook on it too much!
Hylian is top tier.
 

K 2

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
1,920
Location
Tennessee
hes fully right, i dont see why people have a problem with G&W hes iss purely one of the best and most powerfull in the game. His moved are fantastic and deliver a powerful punch that sometimes can't be stopped. What happens when you find a match-up you just dont think works out for you? You keep playing it. Set up a lvl 9 computer and fight it like crazy and learn how to counter that match-up. Yes sometimes it may be that that match-up just isn't good for you, but you will at least be a little bit better at facing them.
NEVER fight lvl 9 computers to learn match-ups! Computers hardly do any tricks that humans can do. All they do is powersheild all your attacks. I only play computers to work on techniques (i.e. practicing QAC, quadruple thunder with pika) and spacing (i.e. practicing spacing G&W's bair)
 

DavieBoy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
125
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Illinois
I have to agree with what Mr. Hylian said, in order to get good with G&W you gotta really be creative in order to not become predictable. recently I have been EXTREMELY aggressive when playing G&W, pretty much never stop rushing the other person, and so far it was worked so-so. This is coming from a more non-tourney player though.

What I will say is finding ways around your own personal weaknesses is key, when my friend first started to use snake I would get beaten bad most of the time, between his mortar sliding and good use of tilts I seemed to never find a way to win. Than one day I decided to do something very simple against his mortar slide, a "fade away B-air" Basically used B-air while jumping backwards and he would slide into it, this small thing really helped and with time I found ways to overcome his snake playing style.
 

revengeska

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
187
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
I might be afraid if it weren't for a few things.

1) I'm right, and you know it.
2) You don't know who I am or where I live
3) I don't know what the hell a number 9 is.
1) I freely admit you're right.
2) You live in San Diego, that's a pretty good start.
3) Welcome to the G&W forums :D
 

SaltyKracka

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1) I freely admit you're right.
2) You live in San Diego, that's a pretty good start.
3) Welcome to the G&W forums :D
1) Then why are so many G&W mains complaining?
2) San Diego's pretty **** big. You couldn't find me if it took you five years.
3) Oh, right. Judgment. I'd forgotten.
 

revengeska

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
187
Location
Minneapolis, Minnesota
1) Then why are so many G&W mains complaining?
2) San Diego's pretty **** big. You couldn't find me if it took you five years.
3) Oh, right. Judgment. I'd forgotten.
1) He's not MK.
2) Ha. Ha ha. You'd be surprised. A quick google search and I already found a pic of you. That's gold.
3) You're catching on:)
 

JustKindaBoredUKno

Smash Lord
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Dec 19, 2007
Messages
1,606
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Southeast Michigan
This argument is stupid. G&W is so overpowered already, he doesn't need any improvements.
Seriously, is there no punishment for ignorance? Stay out of these boards if thats all your input is going to be. I'm sure you'd love to ban him too.


10scrubs

anyways...

This thread was full of common sense. Although informative, of course you only get better through innovation, of course g&w players can't let their opponent read them.

I'm disappointed to see people react the way they did.

I never meant "CHANGE G&W NOW!!!!!!one!!1!11" I simply meant to ask "what are things we can do to improve."


I agree completly, you learn things over time. But we've just been at a total standstill in these boards, and we need more discussion to bring some life back to G&W.
 

Rajam

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
2,175
Location
Santiago, Chile
I've improved a lot with G&W these last weeks, so let me share some tips:

- Dodge often. Dodge in the air, dodgespot often. Rolling dodge should not be abused though because G&W Rolling dodge is slow and kind of short. Make yourself untouchable. Good options after dodgespotting are A jab, Dtilt, Short Hop + Nair in the same place, Up+b. Do not abuse Smash hits after dodging because they arent that fast, specially if the opponent is stickied to you

- Watch and Focus on what your opponent is doing instead of what you are doing. Put the eyes on your opponent, not on yourself. You'll usually make better decisions this way

- Record Videos. And obviously watch them later so you learn of your mistakes and your good movements. Remember you can save videos in your wii if they last less than 3 minutes

- Stay in the air a lot. Though G&W is good in the ground, Many characters are better than you here. And G&W performs highly well in the air with his high-priority air attack. Do not just jump; from the ground use up+b, because the startup is very hard to punish. Once in the air you have a lot of options: Nair, Bair, Dair, Fair, Even Chef, air dodge or just going away. Fair shouldnt be abused near the ground because of that ending lag, and Dair is easily the most predictable of your moves. Even so, The classic counter to Dair is ShieldGrab, so you can Use Dairs as bait. How? Your opponents will usually wait below you shielding ready for the grab; instead of falling over them, fall in front of them like 2 bodies away. The opponent most likely will run to you to punish your "fake miss Dair", thats when you Fsmash or Dtilt them on their faces :). And then Up+b again. Seriously, this Jumping as a monkey with up+b the whole time as soon as you touch the ground works wonder. This air game style is great against Sonic, Wolf, Diddy and some other characters. Just be careful against Metaknight, and high priority moves like Snake And King Dedede Utilt, Toon Link and Olimar's Uair
 

GuruKid

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Messages
875
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Brooklyn, NY
@ SaltyKracka and Revengeska: Peace on earth, and ice cream for all hungry children.

Basics of Hylian's post: Please use common sense, and please start actually THINKING during matches. G&W is a kickass character, but unfortunately even he needs some brains behind the controller if he hopes to win.
 

DemonicTrilogy

Smash Lord
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Jun 23, 2008
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That's for me to know
... Anyways...
How could I work on my approaching and close combat when people get right up to my face and I can't hit them with all the spot-dodging and roll-dodging....
 

Rajam

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 3, 2008
Messages
2,175
Location
Santiago, Chile
... Anyways...
How could I work on my approaching and close combat when people get right up to my face and I can't hit them with all the spot-dodging and roll-dodging....

If they start spotdodging and rolldodging around you, make a very small short hop and Nair, or jump away from them while Bairing

While aproaching, dont forget chef, though i think the real purpose of chef is make oponnents come to you; throw 2 foods, then watch what they do; if they just stay there away, follow up with some more chef; if they come to you by ground, Fsmash or Dtilt, and if they go above you, Uair for stalling or up+b
 

_Phloat_

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
2,953
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Tennessee V_V
I probably could quote everyone in this thread saying that GaW needs to be reinvented...

Including myself XD

Thanks Hylian.
 

K 2

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
1,920
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Tennessee
You could definately quote me many times in the "revamping G&W" thread, but Hylain instilled some common sense in me XD
 
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