Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

Nefarious B · Aug 15, 2009

With Lucario I'm curious how other people deal with roll spamming. I know it's stupid and if I'm super on my game yes I can predict it and punish, but it seems like just having that option gives him so much freedom compared to us.

And please don't say just predict dsmash lulls, that **** is not practical unless your opponent is an absolute ******.

NickRiddle · Aug 16, 2009

Nefarious B said:
With Lucario I'm curious how other people deal with roll spamming. I know it's stupid and if I'm super on my game yes I can predict it and punish, but it seems like just having that option gives him so much freedom compared to us.

And please don't say just predict dsmash lulls, that **** is not practical unless your opponent is an absolute ******.

If the Lucario rolls away, chase it. If the Lucario rolls behind you, utilt.

mountain_tiger · Aug 17, 2009

Can we discuss Peach, please? The Peach boards say it's 50:50, but I'm sure it's at least slightly in ZSS' favour. What do you guys think?

FUNKLAB · Aug 19, 2009

mountain_tiger said:
Can we discuss Peach, please? The Peach boards say it's 50:50, but I'm sure it's at least slightly in ZSS' favour. What do you guys think?

I play various Peach mains daily on AiB and I usually get responses from them on how frustrating ZSS mainers are for them. I think it would be slightly in favor of ZSS as how we **** the air and our Usmash/any aerial exploits her terrible airdodge.

KROE · Aug 19, 2009

I just think that ZSS just finds it easier to get moves in as well. Not sure about if this is true or not because i'm not "great" or anything but from people I've played it seems ZSS, has the lead.

But i'm not sure hence why I'm here to learn from you awesome people! n_n;

noradseven · Aug 19, 2009

Nicholas.Riddle said:
If the Lucario rolls away, chase it. If the Lucario rolls behind you, utilt.

Something like this he is exactly right on the roll behind you u-tilt
when he roll dodges away just, walk forward, don't even attack just push them to the corner, and get ready to punish roll towards with u-tilt, and get good at punishing lucarios d-air have fun :D.

Once I figured this out and the pivot roll the lucario match when from like falco bad to only slightly negative.

This is how I beat gauven who beat a few of our states ranked players with roll+jab+grab+f-smash,

mountain_tiger said:
Can we discuss Peach, please? The Peach boards say it's 50:50, but I'm sure it's at least slightly in ZSS' favour. What do you guys think?

Peach can **** us up fast if we screw up plus they have good item exp so don't expect like instant raeps from items.

I have some problems with peach because of there moves, and I would like this discussed with ppl who have more exp than me in this match, I think we win a bit over all because u-air is **** good.

Also on the ground her slap p. much beats anything we can do if we try to fight up close, not that we really should be that much but still.

ph00tbag · Aug 19, 2009

Peach can also use turnips to give us a lot of trouble from the air. THO always camps when he plays me, and while if you're persistent, you can find openings, a good Peach will never leave the same opening twice if they can help it, so it'll be hard. You can give Peach the business if you can get through her spam, but this is a class A wilderness explorer here, so it's a lot of work.

I used to think this would be a good match-up for ZSS, but I think it's probably even now.

Kataefi · Aug 20, 2009

Hey ZSS mains, zeldas are discussing you guys so if you pop over and contribute to the matchup that would be great

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=245936

sasook · Aug 23, 2009

May I request an IC writeup, please? I just got ***** by some good climbers.

Charby · Aug 25, 2009

is this thread bugged or something i cant acces the last page...

NickRiddle · Aug 25, 2009

Something like deleted posts that add to the mages but you cannot see them... I don't know, but the ZSS boards are very fond of that error it seems.

Nefarious B · Sep 1, 2009

Just a random tidbit versus Diddy that I finally got to testing:

We all know that glidetoss>dsmash *****. However, if you land this in the percent range of a dash attack lock, you can add some % to the combo by doing this:

Forward GT
Dsmash
Run/froll to other side of diddy
DA him onto the bananna
He trips, dsmash twice, followup

So you can add a DA and extra dsmash to the combo if you get him to DA lock range with the initial bananna damage and first dsmash damage.

This may work at percents lower than the start of the dash lock, since they escape DA lock at lower percents by shielding, but any higher than the DA lock range and diddy can airdodge which will pick up the banana off the ground.

Basically, around the % range for DA locks, and maybe a little lower, we knock Diddy just far enough to land him on the banana while not lifting him too far up to allow him to airdodge.

solecalibur · Sep 10, 2009

Charby said:
is this thread bugged or something i cant acces the last page...

theres alot of threads like this a ton on wario boards when I use to go there

Do we have enough info on IC's I'd like to move to the next match up if possible

Nefarious B · Sep 10, 2009

Peach? Pit? Seriously we should do those

#HBC | ZoZo · Sep 10, 2009

Can't we summarize IC first, before moving on?

NickRiddle · Sep 10, 2009

Xonar said:
Can't we summarize IC first, before moving on?

ZSS boards do something useful in the char. specific section? Impossible.

noradseven · Sep 10, 2009

Nicholas.Riddle said:
ZSS boards do something? Impossible.

fixed it for you

solecalibur · Sep 11, 2009

Xonar said:
Can't we summarize IC first, before moving on?

Can we some how contact whos in charge of the thread or give it to someone else if we cant get ahold of them?

Nefarious B · Sep 11, 2009

Several people on our forums have access to "The Zero Suit" account. Dazwa, Snakeee and Cake I'm pretty sure. They should probly give the password to some of the other usuals so that we can move it along.

wWw Dazwa · Sep 11, 2009

If you guys want, I can change thread ownership and give it to someone who thinks they have what it takes to maintain this thread. Just let me know who you guys feel would be best suited and motivated for the task.

I'm probably going to end up doing this for the tournament rankings thread as well, I've lost any motivation to keep track of rankings on it and I've more or less abandoned it as a result. If anyone wants to take over that project, PM me.

ph00tbag · Sep 11, 2009

Dazwa said:
If you guys want, I can change thread ownership and give it to someone who thinks they have what it takes to maintain this thread. Just let me know who you guys feel would be best suited and motivated for the task.

I'm probably going to end up doing this for the tournament rankings thread as well, I've lost any motivation to keep track of rankings on it and I've more or less abandoned it as a result. If anyone wants to take over that project, PM me.

It's really a lot easier just to give the TheZeroSuit password to anyone who wants to start working on the thread. I know it, so people can just ask about it here, and I'll PM them.

Nefarious B · Sep 11, 2009

Yeah I'd like the pass

And I think first thing we should do is link all those matchups we did when Zero was managing like 3 different threads at the same time. We had lots of good info on those.

Mota · Sep 12, 2009

So how does TL's OHKO on ZSS effect the MU.

Options on avoiding and punishing it?

Nefarious B · Sep 12, 2009

McDingus said:
So how does TL's OHKO on ZSS effect the MU.

Options on avoiding and punishing it?

It's interesting to say the least. I think you guys are gonna have a tough time landing it on marth and ZS because we're aerially based to the point where it'll be tough to ever get in that situation.

I want to see how far it actually knocks us though before I call it a one hit KO. Samus can recover pretty **** far distance wise, but I know you guys probly tested this stuff already so I'm not optimistic.

I don't really see it affecting the matchup number at all until you guys can prove it can actually be landed against a real opponent. Also the nature of the ZS TL matchup is pretty much us working to get around your camping and then comboing you. There shouldn't be many close combat ops for you to pull this off.

TheZeroSuit · Sep 12, 2009

LUCARIO:

Strengths:

Outspeed Lucario, both mobility wise and movement wise.
We outrange him at close and midrange.
She has an easier time gimping him than most characters.
She easily punishes his approaches

Weaknesses:

She has a tough time with his camping game
Aura hurts her lack of super killing moves
His roll is very effective for punishing our midrange spacing game

Final Verdict: 50:50

Matchup Advice: Lucario is a character who has high startup on his moves but very low cooldown. Unlike other matchups, we cannot rely on punishing his ending lag, so look for chances to outspace and outspeed his moves at startup.

Exploiting Strengths:
If you have the lead, you can use your movement speed to run away and force him to approach you instead of you approaching him. Aura sphere is easy to avoid, and we can easily punish Lucario's approaches if he is forced to because of our lead. Stalling out the time can actually be a good method to win with in this match.

Abuse Lucario's weak OOS options. Spacing well will make his terrible grab range a nonissue when hitting his shield. His utilt is fast and has good range but only above him, so unless you are very close to him he will not be able to hit with it. He will either nair in this case or roll, take advantage of this predictability and punish.

Both characters have long ranged, slow moves, as well as faster close range moves. We outrange and generally outspeed Lucario in both situations, so abuse both our move speed and range.

Lucario has a slow fall speed, which makes his airdodge an easy punish in juggle situations. His best options in this case are either to b reversal his AS, or dair stall. Uair outranges his dair, though it is tight spacing, and they both are frame 4 moves so we cannot rely on outspeeding it.
Minimizing Weaknesses:
We will have trouble killing him until higher percents, which gives him more aura. To help with this, edge guard extremely aggressively against Lucario, taking advantage of the startup on his up b. If they recover low edge hog to force them to wall jump, and bair stage spike them out of it.

Lucario's camping and roll are difficult for us to punish. The afformentioned stalling technique can be a way to avoid approaching. However, when you do have to approach use your safe approaches. Nair autocancel will outrange his grab, so we can do nair>shield, and punish his OOS attempt, rolling away if he rolls towards. Bair is also similarly effective.
Suitpiece Strategy:
Suit pieces will clank with aura sphere so abuse that to make approaching easier when you have them. Lucario has a glide toss length similar to diddy's and no really good followups out of the GT. Watch out for zdrop dair.

If he aerially approaches, downward glidetoss and bair to catch him in between the two hurtboxes.

Zdrop a suitpiece and side b retreating and that makes the whip very difficult to punish, making it perfectly safe against a roll.

Save a piece long enough to get an early kill or gimp and then take advantage of Lucario's difficulty killing you with no aura.
Approach Alterations:
Don't use aerial side b, especially the approaching variation. Lucario can roll behind it and grab or punish in other ways. Instead use stutter step side b to micro space and not allow him to roll behind you.

This is a very defensive match up where both characters will be spacing and looking for punishment situations. Do NOT be overly aggressive when approaching.

AS is easily avoided or powershielded at mid to long range. Work through the spam and then abuse your superior move speed and range while expecting his roll.
In the Air:
ZS's superior mobility and fast moves win here. Be aggressive when he is in the air, and just watch out for the very fast dair and space around it. If he airdodges ever its easy punishment, so assume he will dair stall instead and punish.
Attacks to Look for:
- Dair
  Description: double hit attack with huge active frames, comes out on frame 4, stalls him in the air and does good knockback and damage.
  How to Counter/Avoid: your uair is the same speed and narrowly outspaces him. Dair is fairly predictable because airdodge is a terrible
- Fsmash
  Description: Slow but long ranged spacing tool that is very safe on block and even on whiff.
  How to counter/Avoid: Side b outranges it and has similar startup. Watch for it's obvious startup animation and do not try to aerial him out of it, he will hit you.
How to Edgeguard:
Look two posts down for in depth discussion. Force him to use his up b by repeatedly knocking him out, and then punish it's long startup and lack of hitbox.
How to Recover:
Avoid his fair, and beware if he dair stalls in the trajectory of your whip pull in.
Special Information:
Lucario's aura special ability does NOT increase hitbox sizes, excluding aura sphere. It increases knockback, damage, and priority.

Punishing rolls:

noradseven said:

Something like this he is exactly right on the roll behind you u-tilt
when he roll dodges away just, walk forward, don't even attack just push them to the corner, and get ready to punish roll towards with u-tilt

Click to expand...

Counterpick Advice:

Stages to Counter-pick:
- Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise. Battlefield is the neutral of preference here, then Lylat or SV.
Stages to Avoid:
- Japes, Frigate, FD

Legendary Pikachu · Sep 12, 2009

Nefarious B said:
It's interesting to say the least. I think you guys are gonna have a tough time landing it on marth and ZS because we're aerially based to the point where it'll be tough to ever get in that situation.

I want to see how far it actually knocks us though before I call it a one hit KO. Samus can recover pretty **** far distance wise, but I know you guys probly tested this stuff already so I'm not optimistic.

I don't really see it affecting the matchup number at all until you guys can prove it can actually be landed against a real opponent. Also the nature of the ZS TL matchup is pretty much us working to get around your camping and then comboing you. There shouldn't be many close combat ops for you to pull this off.

The vid will be up sometime by tomorrow early evening (i am the appointed vid editor... lol). And I am pretty sure ZSS will be featured.

Yea... very situational.... but a very high reward too.

As for the knockback, it is enough knockback to put ZSS far to the point that a DJ and Down-B towards the stage will not allow ZSS to hit TL. Until something surprising comes up it's a 1HKO (so long as ZSS has nothing to footstool glitch off of) from the second arrow (closer to center) on FD.

Nefarious B · Sep 12, 2009

I wrote up the Ice Climber analysis, feel free to suggest additions.

I was in the Lucario IRC asking them to help out with the matchup, I figured posting part of the convo can help us get this discussion rolling, and it's solid info so no need to repost it all :

General Strategy discussion

[00:53] <Linkshot> ZSS' trump card is Plasma Whip for sure.
[00:53] <Linkshot> Outspaces fSmash. If we whiff, we eat tipper.
[00:54] <Stauffy> Don't fsmash
[00:54] <Nefarious> what are you lucario's good OOS options
[00:54] <Nefarious> fair nair and dair i'd assume?
[00:54] <Tedward> Nair
[00:54] <Stauffy> Lucario's oos options are bad
[00:54] <Nefarious> really
[00:54] <Linkshot> Pretty bad, yeah.
[00:54] <Nefarious> i would think they'd be really good
[00:54] <Stauffy> Unless they land right behind you, then utilt is pretty good
[00:54] <Linkshot> His best is "dodge away"
[00:54] <Tedward> or grab
[00:55] <Linkshot> lolgrab
[00:55] <Nefarious> you won't be grabbing ZS with that range
[00:55] <Tedward> which is also bad
[00:55] <Nefarious> lol
[00:55] <Linkshot> My OOS option is "dodge the **** out of there and throw blue balls"
[00:55] <Tedward> oos pivot grab (i wish)
[00:55] <Tedward> yea, just roll really
[00:56] <Linkshot> I'd say the best thing to do, as Lucario, is pressure the opponent to the ledge, then fAir them to shieldpush them off. Easy dAir.

[01:14] <Tedward> uh anything out prioritize important moves?
[01:14] <Stauffy> Like I said, AS will outprioritize side-b at high %s
[01:14] <Stauffy> That's pretty important haha
[01:15] <Nefarious> if you're at high percents we more than likely wont' be using side b as much, just saying
[01:16] <Stauffy> Far as I know it's her best method of pressuring a campy Lucario
[01:18] <Stauffy> Anyways I'm pretty sure your uair beats out our dair which is a pain
[01:18] <Nefarious> if you're camping on the ground we usually will try and bait the roll to push you back to the edge, then pressure with bair, side b, nB
[01:18] <Nefarious> yeah it does, rayku told me that much
[01:18] <Nefarious> it's pretty tough to space though
[01:18] <Nefarious> what frame is your dair
[01:19] <Stauffy> 4 frames
[01:19] <Nefarious> yeah so same as our uair
[01:19] <Nefarious> what about your fair?
[01:19] <Stauffy> It's a risk I'll take unless the uair is gonna kill me usually
[01:19] <Linkshot> Same, I'm pretty sure.
[01:19] <Stauffy> Nooooo
[01:19] <Stauffy> Fair is not the same speed as dair lol
[01:19] <Tedward> its slower isnt it?
[01:20] <Stauffy> Fair is like frame 7 or something
[01:20] <Nefarious> wow it seemed faster to me
[01:20] <Nefarious> i thought you use fair for momentum cancel
[01:20] <Stauffy> Yeah, it has pretty much no ending lag
[01:20] <Tedward> more for DI
[01:20] <Stauffy> That's why
[01:20] <Tedward> and that too
[01:20] <Stauffy> You can do two in a shorthop
[01:20] <Nefarious> i see
[01:21] <Stauffy> It also does almost no damage, so don't be afraid to trade hits with it

Edge Guarding

[01:26] <Stauffy> Anyways I'd say the best thing you can do is edgeguard agressively
[01:26] *** DJBrowny has joined #lucario
[01:26] <Stauffy> Since you really don't want Lucario living long
[01:26] <Nefarious> yeah i know your up b has that startup
[01:26] <Stauffy> Obviously nobody does but especially not ZSS
[01:29] <Nefarious> hmmm what's the best way to edgeguard lucario
[01:29] <Stauffy> Depends on how he's coming in
[01:30] <Nefarious> i was thinking probably going to go for a hit to knock you too far out, and if that doens't work edgehog and punish the lag on up b recovery to stage
[01:30] <Tedward> if above the stage line, lucario most of the time wont need to use his up-b
[01:30] <Nefarious> yeah i would break it up into 3 sections, how you recover high, at stage level, and below stage
[01:31] <Stauffy> Ideally he'll recover high enough to have no need for up-b
[01:31] <Nefarious> do you fast fall quickly?
[01:31] <Stauffy> No
[01:31] <Tedward> no
[01:31] <Stauffy> Not at all
[01:31] <Nefarious> so easy to juggle then
[01:31] <Tedward> really floaty
[01:31] <Nefarious> if we can get around dair
[01:31] <Stauffy> His best way to get down safely is to stall with dair
[01:31] <Stauffy> Which is iffy against ZSS. >>
[01:31] <Nefarious> yeah
[01:31] <Nefarious> up b hurts any kinda air stalling pretty bad
[01:32] <Stauffy> Uair worries me more
[01:32] <Stauffy> If you time dair just right it actually clanks with up-b lol
[01:32] <Nefarious> well yeah and she can bait the airdodge with a boost jump then uair the lag
[01:32] <Nefarious> oh good to know
[01:32] <Stauffy> Which is pretty funny to see
[01:32] <DJBrowny> stale the uair... doesnt bother me. remove one of your best KO options against lucario lol
[01:32] <Nefarious> so it just goes through you or what
[01:32] <Stauffy> Yeah pretty much
[01:32] <Stauffy> Stomp stomp
[01:32] <Nefarious> DJ uair isn't a great kill move to be honest
[01:33] <Nefarious> it's much better for comboing
[01:33] <DJBrowny> i know... but what set ups have u got to KO lucario
[01:33] <Nefarious> unless it's a low stage i guess
[01:33] <DJBrowny> good luck getting a dsmash
[01:33] <Nefarious> yeah
[01:33] <DJBrowny> u wont be trapping landing lag with it often
[01:33] <Nefarious> well i doubt anyone has actual setups to kills on lucario
[01:33] <Tedward> considering Nair autocancles and Fair is a sudo cancle
[01:33] <Stauffy> How is that
[01:34] <Stauffy> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzb3JJdZbpA
[01:34] <DJBrowny> ted, in one of my vids i put up i swear i got uair to AC
[01:34] <DJBrowny> ill fine it...
[01:34] <DJBrowny> find
[01:34] <Stauffy> Anyways
[01:34] <Stauffy> If he's NOT coming in high
[01:35] <Stauffy> Your best options are dsmash, bair or edgehogging and then punishing landing lag
[01:35] <Nefarious> how significant is the landing lag on up b
[01:35] <Stauffy> Depends
[01:35] <Nefarious> and do you even have landing lag if you do the wall jump thing?
[01:36] <Stauffy> No
[01:36] <Stauffy> If he up-b's onto the stage from stage level he can cancel most of the landing lag
[01:36] <Nefarious> ah
[01:37] <Stauffy> If he's recovering from below and has to curve onto the stage it's more significant
[01:37] <Nefarious> hmmm im thinking maybe it would be a good idea to save bair for the kill now, i duno
[01:37] <Stauffy> So edgehog is your best bet if he's recovering from below
[01:38] <Stauffy> If he's recovering from stage level, either bair him during the startup for up-b or dsmash if he tries to go for the ledge without using up-b

Stage Discussion

[01:38] <Nefarious> what about stages?
[01:38] <Nefarious> i'm assuming smaller the stage the better for us, but any you're really not good on
[01:38] <Stauffy> Brinstar and Rainbow Cruise are pretty bad
[01:40] <Stauffy> Not surprisingly Lucci is good on Japes
[01:41] <Stauffy> Is Frigate a bad ZSS stage?
[01:41] <DJBrowny> FRIGATE <33333333333
[01:41] <Tedward> and lucario can scale the underside of SV from one side to the other with Fair and Up-b
[01:42] <DJBrowny> ZSS cant recover for **** on frigate 1st transformation right side lol
[01:42] <DJBrowny> forced to down b
[01:42] <DJBrowny> easy full charge AS
[01:42] <DJBrowny> every time
[01:44] <Nefarious> so you'd probly still rather go to japes over frigate though right?
[01:44] <Stauffy> Depends
[01:45] <Stauffy> Which is worse for Zero Suit
[01:45] <Stauffy> I'm inclined to think Frigate
[01:45] <DJBrowny> sif japes is legal
[01:45] <Stauffy> Overall yes I prefer Japes

Browny · Sep 12, 2009

near the end of the edgeguarding section you C&P'd about 15 or so lines twice btw...

Great stuff taking the initiative to go there and ask about the MU

If only more people did that

phi1ny3 · Sep 12, 2009

Good stuff.
Yeah another point I'd like to hand out is considering your oos options against air stuff, I'd probably make the most of that.
I don't know if we've gone over it, but iirc Lucario outcamps ZSS (frame 19 and maybe less cooldown vs. frame 21? I dunno), which is good, because lucario would be screwed if he had to approach in this MU. (at least, imo)

Edit: I'd like to point out that one of the sections was made twice in that IRC chat.
Also, I'd like to see that Ksizzle vs. Snakeee rematch.

#HBC | ZoZo · Sep 12, 2009

phi1ny3 said:
Good stuff.
Yeah another point I'd like to hand out is considering your oos options against air stuff, I'd probably make the most of that.
I don't know if we've gone over it, but iirc Lucario outcamps ZSS (frame 19 and maybe less cooldown vs. frame 21? I dunno), which is good, because lucario would be screwed if he had to approach in this MU. (at least, imo)

ZSS lacks good oos options, mainly missing the grab.

Lucario outcamps ZSS, but that's only because ZSS has a midrange projectile, and it's not a charge-able. ZSS has 17 frames, but significant ending lag.

Maybe you did discuss it, but I still like to note that a ZSS must get kills early against Lucario, but that's risky because at those percentages ZSS is often in kill range herself, being light and all. So killing is something you can exploit here, play extremely safe when you're in kill percentages, try to camp her.

Snakeee · Sep 12, 2009

Nefarious B said:
Several people on our forums have access to "The Zero Suit" account. Dazwa, Snakeee and Cake I'm pretty sure. They should probly give the password to some of the other usuals so that we can move it along.

I've honestly never used it, and forgot the password long ago :laugh:

. Ask Dazwa

phi1ny3 · Sep 12, 2009

Xonar said:
ZSS lacks good oos options, mainly missing the grab.

Lucario outcamps ZSS, but that's only because ZSS has a midrange projectile, and it's not a charge-able. ZSS has 17 frames, but significant ending lag.

Maybe you did discuss it, but I still like to note that a ZSS must get kills early against Lucario, but that's risky because at those percentages ZSS is often in kill range herself, being light and all. So killing is something you can exploit here, play extremely safe when you're in kill percentages, try to camp her.

Good to know.
Like I said when the ZSS's discussed the MU in our boards, I don't have too much exp. fighting her, but I've been watching videos to improve my scope on the MU.

mountain_tiger · Sep 12, 2009

Yeah, Lucario definitely outcamps ZSS. ZSS can't really outcamp many characters; her projectile wasn't designed for that sort of thing.

The key to winning this is to try and stay in mid-range as much as you possibly can. Lucario wins at long range due to Aura Sphere, and he's superior at short range (though ZSS can usually hold her own; it's not hopeless), but we definitely win at mid-range, since most of his longer ranged moves have fairly large start-up. It's also worth noting that many of Lucario's attacks have low cooldown lag, so you're not likely to be able to punish them as effectively.

Both Lucario and ZSS are fairly heavily air-dependent, with Lucario's best aerials being Fair and Dair, whereas ours are Bair and Uair. I'm pretty sure that Bair outranges most of his ground and all of his air moves if spaced properly. IIRC, our Uair can beat his Dair, but in order to do so you have to space very well, and it's difficult to do consistently. I'm not sure if Dair clanks with USmash and up B (I'll have to check that); if so, then that's not too good.

On the plus side, Lucario can't combo us that well when he's at low percents, what with ZSS being so light and all. However, obviously that light weight is a disadvantage too because it means he can kill us earlier.

You want to try and kill Lucario as early as you possibly can, and likewise survive as long as possible. If you can get a gimp kill on him (e.g. from a down B spike, let's say), then that screws him over massively since he's back to 0% and faces the problem of being unable to kill you. However, if you get killed early, although it's not as bad as it is for Lucario, it's still bad because he keeps his damage and knockback buff, allowing him to rack up damage and kill more easily.

All in all, I'd say that this is very slightly in Lucario's favour: 45:55.

Nefarious B · Sep 12, 2009

I asked specifically about the dair vs our uair, we do out range it but the spacing is difficult, and unlike most dairs we can't rely on simply outspeeding it because the dair is also 4 frames. Dair clanks with our up b. Our usmash beats it outright I believe, so that may be something worth using in this matchup if Lucario is trying to approach at the 1-2 oclock position.

phi1ny3 · Sep 12, 2009

I dunno this ratio, it could go from even to slight advantages either way, I'd have to look at more videos to check it out.

#HBC | ZoZo · Sep 12, 2009

Strengths:

Our 1frame jab works
Faster aerials
Grab release aerials
Easy to space sideB
Dead-spot at 135 degree angle.

Weaknesses:

GaW has great shield pressure
GaW has more killing power
GaW can survive just as long as us with bucket braking
GaW can gimp us
GaW's upB is like Marths, but safer.

Final Verdict: 60-40
Matchup Advice:
Exploiting Strengths:
As soon as GaW is on the ground, USE JAB. I can not stress this enough. Jab pushes the match really into our advantage.
GaW relies on his smashes, and while they may seem fast, it's all an illusion. It's those small things you have to capitalize on. Jab him every single time. Don't even think about dtilt or utilt. Maybe throw in some DA's.
You can catch landings with grabs, but it's not advised. If you see him aim-to-miss a bair, you can try it. Otherwise use nB, and grab from that. If you get a grab, pummel accordingly and release -> uair.
When using uair it's best to hit him at his dead-spot, try to bait dairs and shieldgrab them on landing, or (preferably) nB and then shieldgrab.
Fair is your best aerial in this match-up, though. It beats almost everything if used rising, and can be very unexpected.
Dsmash is best used after nB if you want to spice it up a little, but you're not always at the correct distance for it. It's not the best punisher in this matchup, but can be used with caution. Expect to eat Fsmashes if you miss it.
Minimizing Weaknesses:
Tech the Dthrow, it's really simple and really effective. Tech-roll is best because a normal tech won't avoid Dsmash.
Use jab a LOT. A GaW will not be able to kill you without fair if you do it right.
Gimping is where we're worst here, GaWs Dsmash sets up for a gimp nicely, as does dtilt. Chef owns our downB (omg chef!) and you'll often feel challenged when recovering against a good GaW.
Suitpiece Strategy:
Suitpieces, suitpieces... before starting let me admit my piece game isn't top-notch so the amount of errors here might be higher then in the rest of the thing.
I'll start off by saying GaW's item game sucks, this is mostly the fault of his hard glide toss, and if he ****s up he rolls (which is bad for GaW).
A GaW will often try to throw your pieces away as soon as it's in his possession, and nair helps with that cause. If a GaW fairs his box will hide the item (mindgames! that's why it's a box, I think) so manage them well.
Overall it's pretty safe to go for follow-ups, GaW is slower then one might think. GaW's speed is an illusion, which often catches new players or players unfamiliar to the match-up.
All in all a great day to throw pieces.
Approach Alterations:
You probably won't approach. If GaW is not approaching you can just throw in some sideB in an aim-to-miss fashioned sense and he'll start coming for you.
In the Air:
The air should be yours if you want, but it can be a good option to give the air to GaW and when he feels comfortable knock him out.
You'll often take the air after a grab, so you better get to know his aerials. GaWs main reason to be in the air is for his bair, which is troublesome if it hits on your shield. It deals a good load of damage and is a nice shield poke. GaW will often decide to take the air with upB, at which you best use your upB or usmash. Uair works less well in my opinion.
This is a really self explanatory part of the match-up.
Attacks to Look for:

Bair
Description: Bair is a nice attack, it has great shield pressure and has great range. The damage is also insane. This attack is rather slow compared to our aerials though, so if you see it coming space a sideB or even just jump in for a quick fair.
How to Counter/Avoid: You can't really in this match-up avoid this move. Countering is best done with nB or sideB.
DI: DI upwards.
SDI: SDI upwards.
Dtilt
Description: Dtilt is a really good move, it has IASA frames and thus it can be active all the time. If you get Dtilted in shield don't release but just sit it out.
How to Counter/Avoid: Sit it out and punish if he's greedy.
Dsmash
Description: Kills fast an if sourspotted gimps fast. Overall nothing fun to be up against.
How to Counter/Avoid:Jab or shield.
DI: DI is hard with this move, as the sourspot sends you at a 95 degree angle and the sweetspot at 0. Try to DI to the corner, and adjust as as soon as you see where you're sent.
upB
Description: Quick escaping move, very dangerous when recovering or used offensively.
How to Counter/Avoid:In the air, airdodge. On the ground use usmash or upb.

How to Edgeguard:
You don't. upB is too good.
How to Recover:
Recover high at all times, use downb early and MAKE SURE YOU DON'T GET HIT AFTERWARDS. If you have no downb you'll probably get gimped. Problem is if you use it from afar you will have no invincibility, but if you use it up close you can get sent back just as easily. A good bet is going for the ledge, it's the least risky thing to do. Even then you'll be at risk.
Special Information:
JAB JAB JAB
Counterpick Advice:
GaW likes lylat for it's platforms, GaW hates FD. RC shouldn't be used against GaW imo.
Stages to Counter-pick:
FD otherwise Brinstar
Stages to Avoid:
RC otherwise FO
ZSS Contributors:
Xonar
GaW Contributors:
kaak°

Please keep in note that this is my interpretation of the match-up, your opinion might not be the same but that does not change any of this.
Also keep in mind that the information in this thread might become false in the future.

Supermodel From Paris · Sep 13, 2009

GaW What 10 char

#HBC | ZoZo · Sep 13, 2009

Supermodel From Paris said:
GaW What 10 char

I wer bored and we had no writeup >_>

Supermodel From Paris · Sep 13, 2009

IMO gaw is worse for him than 60:40 anyway

As for Lucario, It's either even or 55:45 slightly for Lucario's advantage, but like all matches it's stage-dependent. Also, Lucario absolutely ***** ZSS offstage. Just saying.

TheZeroSuit · Sep 14, 2009

Lucario synopsis is up.

Kirby:

Strengths:

Powerful airgame beats Kirby in both speed and range
With mediocre speed and no long ranged moves, Kirby is easier to camp with side b, nB, and dsmash, than other characters
Kirby is extremely lightweight making for easy kills
down b and good DI make Kirby’s early grab combos escapable, hurting his early damage wracking
up b goes through stone and dair, making juggling a lot easier

Weaknesses:

Kirby is small, making many of our moves very difficult to land, and easy to powershield. Jab3 and dash locks outright miss him
ZSS is also light, and Kirby has amazing killing power
Kirby has multiple jumps, allowing him to chase us off stage for possible gimps
While he is a more aerially inclined character, Kirby has a good ground game centered around his awesome grab and fast tilts, outclassing her

Final Verdict: 60-40

Matchup Advice:

Exploiting Strengths: Be safe with your spacing moves and bair to punish Kirby’s limited approach abilities. Play cautiously, and as long as you avoid being predictable Kirby will actually have a hard time killing you. Force him to the ground by punishing him with your superior air game any time he tries to go for an aerial approach.
Unlike most matches, this isn’t really about comboing. Hit Kirby once and go for any easy follow-ups, then back off and force him to approach again.
Use your superior speed to bait and punish with relative safety.
Minimizing Weaknesses:
Avoid predictable down bs, as Kirby can inhale you through it, causing you to lose it and become easy prey for his guaranteed footstool to edge hog combo after.
At around 85% play extremely cautiously and avoid ever being in range of Kirby’s fsmash. This will force him to kill with either side b (difficult to land) or bair (always stale). Also, watch out for dair as it sets up into fsmash
Use crossovers and mixups to avoid becoming predictable with aerials, as Kirby can easily powershield them most of the time.
Suitpiece Strategy:
These can lead to super early kills if you get Kirby off stage. Use these to increase your speed and range advantage to give Kirby an even harder time approaching you.
Approach Alterations:
One of the few matchups where we aren’t really forced to approach often. Poke and knock Kirby out of any aerial approaches to frustrate your opponent into making a mistake, where you can punish with one of your longer ranged moves.
In the Air:
Kirby’s bair is well known for being an insanely good aerial, with good combo ability, killing ability, range, as well as making Kirby’s hhitbox extremely small. Our bair does outspace it, though this can be difficult to pull off as Kirby’s bair is much easier to spam in general. Thankfully:
Kirby is slow in the air, making it easier for us to outspace him even though he has multiple jumps.
His uair is a good combo tool that can hurt our blindspot underneath. It has fairly short range however, and isn’t too difficult to avoid unless he uses it out of a grab.
Our uair beats his dair, and our up b beats out both the stone and dair, and all this combined with mediocre aerial movement means Kirby will have a tough time avoiding juggle traps.
Our retreating bair and nair are both tough for Kirby to punish except for on powershield. Crossovers are very safe on block.
How to Edgeguard:
Kirby has multiple jumps, an air smash stall move, stone for extremely fast fall speed, and an up b with decent vertical reach. So how do we edgeguard this beast? The key is to just keep knocking Kirby out until he runs out of jumps. Our bair completely outclasses Kirby's fair, which means whenever he is facing us, like he often will be when recovering, Kirby is vulnerable to being outspaced.

Once he runs out of jumps, up b should be easy to edgehog. However, Kirby will never be easily gimped, and the goal when he is offstage should be to score an early kill off the side or simply build damage.

If Kirby recovers high, he's vulnerable like most characters to our juggle traps. If they try to stone offstage then recover low, simple follow them down and wait for them to come out of stone and bair them then recover.
How to Recover:
Kirby will either try to dair spike, side b for the easy off the side kill, or inhale you and attempt a fooststool. Keeping this in mind, recovering high leaves you least vulnerable to these options, and since kirby isn't an amazing juggler the reward is greater than the risk.

If you're forced to recover at stage level, kirby will probably try to anticipate your flipkick and inhale to footstool you out of it. Fend him off with side b, or fair if you're fast enough, then tether.

If low, Kirby will attempt to dair spike you, or even bair stage spike you. Uair is a good options to give you some room to safely tether up.
Special Information:
Kirby is the only character who cannot be dash locked.

Kirby ducks under jab3

Counterpick Advice:

Stages to Counter-pick: Brinstar and BF both do a good job of accentuating our aerial prowess. Lylat can also be good.
Stages to Avoid: Japes can hurt your midrange spacing game that is actually effective in this matchup. It will also allow for Kirby inhale and dair water spikes, early fsmash kills, and hurt our ability to approach and force an approach.

Frigate is another stage that will make it more likely for Kirby to pull off a gimp because of the lack of edge.

FD: This stage being so bid will widen the gap in killing ability in many cases. Not terrible by any means, but of the 3 main neutrals this is the least beneficial to us.

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