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Official Zero Suit Samus Matchup Thread

Nefarious B

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I'll put this vid up to start off the discussion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgnC7X4v4GE

Kirby obviously has a tough time approaching ZS. If he gets inside he can combo well.

Zero Suit outspeeds Kirby in every way, from running speed to roll speed to horizontal and vertical movement speed to actual speed of attacks.

Snakeee gets punished a couple times for spamming dsmash, using it once then retreating or using a faster move to followup is probably a better idea.

Bair is Kirby's only move that can really compete with zero suit's spacing game.

Playing the bait and punish spacing game like Snakeee does here seems like a very effective way to avoid Kirby's stronger killing moves (fsmash and side b) which will push Kirby to rely more on bair for the kill, which will probably be stale as it is his main damage builder at mid percents.

It doesn't seem like Kirby can punish our side b, paralyzer and dsmash as easily as most characters, so camping is a good option in this match as long as it isn't spammed.
 

phi1ny3

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IMO gaw is worse for him than 60:40 anyway :p

As for Lucario, It's either even or 55:45 slightly for Lucario's advantage, but like all matches it's stage-dependent. Also, Lucario absolutely ***** ZSS offstage. Just saying.
I agree with this.
imo her jab, usmash, uair, and bair will be fairly good in this MU. Make sure you get in the right window for damage, play smart, and you can nab this. I think one of the few reasons warranting 45:55 lucario favor (very even still) is stage dependency and who approaches who (if lucario had to approach in this MU more, this would swing widely in ZSS' favor). ZSS has slightly better damaging tools once getting in, but like you said, lucario has really good offstage options + getting to high aura % is always a bonus in this MU. Make sure you keep your better kill moves fresh, like bair, because you'll need it when punishing lucario at high percents.
I think someone mentioned some, but which stages do you think are good/bad against lucario? I would think we would take ZSS to frigate, merely because of right side of the stage (lucario can wallcling on nearly every edge on the stage, including the right side on the first part of the stage, some only if the opponent is edgehogging the edge above the wall), decent AS camping, and somewhat large stage size. FD and Yoshi's I'd figure are also good for lucario, for obvious reasons. I think you'd trump on BF as a neutral, and as for CPs for ZSS, I'm not sure :\
 

noradseven

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Actually I don't feel that FD is really that bad for ZSS. yoshi's/wolfs stage is probably the worst, but even then there isn't really anything big either way on the neutrals, they are actually quite neutral for once O_o. We should tottally CP RC, because lucario isn't a big fan of RC, norfair is alright as well, but ya gotta be more careful there.
 

phi1ny3

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Yeah I wasn't sure of ZSS viability on RC, but lucarios certainly hate that stage against multiple jump/floaty chars >.<. How does ZSS do on JJ? If it's not a very good stage for her, than lucario will definitely also CP there. The reason I pulled up FD is that it's probably the best neutral for lucario if YI isn't a neutral in your area (like mine). Lucario is kind of meh on platform pressure, and big stage size (bigger than Frigate), wallclingable sides (wallcling isn't without it's weaknesses, but always a plus to expand recovery options), and that open area = good for camping. I'd say BF is probably the best for ZSS, esp. with better vertical control if lucario is on a platform, plus it it has shorter stage boundaries, and makes it harder for lucario to effectively camp ZSS.
Oh yeah, make sure to take advantage of the item spawn, lucario doesn't have a very good forward glidetoss compared to ZSS, and even though BAS might be good for halting them, I'm sure you'd overload Lucario (especially one who doesn't know the MU) for 10-30% at minimum.
 

REL38

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Kirby's gotta space well to avoid those side-B's. Bairs are his best friend in building up damage.

And getting above her isn't good for Kirby. U-Smashes, U-b's and Uair's build damage up pretty quickly if you're not careful.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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You guys already went to Kirby, wow that 5x faster than the Link boards.

That write up is correct, stages are the only thing to really talk about.

Norfair favors people who have sucky recoveries or like to move around platforms more and want Lava to bail them out, it works good for people who can ark their projectiles around the platforms and use them to protect themselves from linear spamming.

So R.O.B., Link, and Toon Link get advantages. I don't think either character gets a good advantage here.

Frigate is a Lucario stage, hands down.

I'm kind of lost on what ZSS will counter pick, Battlefield is good but what else is the question.
 

A1lion835

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Overview:
Zero Suit Samus is Samus without her power suit, but is a completely different character. She has a large amount of range, and her recovery is better than you'd think. Her air game rivals your own, and it can be a tough matchup to handle.


Pros+Cons:
+Powerful air game, stronger than kirby’s.
+Very hard to gimp, and can gimp us if we’re not careful.

-Mid-range game is easily beaten by slowly walking forward and powershielding.
-Dash attack and paralyzer shot (except fully charged) both go over a crouching Kirby.


Watch out for:

Dsmash – Getting hit by a Dsmash guarantees that ZSS can land a kill move on you. Be cautious at high %’s. If you’re in the middle of the stage and she hits you, DI up and get ready to momentum cancel. If you’re on the edge and she hits you, better luck on your next stock. Dsmash also leads into combos.

Her Air Game – ZSS’ aerials are generally longer-ranged and more powerful than yours. Watch out for the killing uair, bair and fair, and the dair which spikes a little and is a stall-then-fall. Plasma wire will always beat or clash with dair, and drags stone below her without hitting her.

Her Uair – It’s so good it needed its own paragraph. ZSS’ Uair is the rough equivalent of our bair; it combos into itself and it can kill. Note that her combo starters are all hard to hit with (Dthrow, dtilt and utilt), but that you will get hit by them eventually and you will take on a bunch of %.

Down B – It works as a surprisingly good recovery attack, has invincibility in the beginning and can spike you if you’re not careful. DON’T APPROACH FROM UNDER HER. DON’T DO IT.


How to win:

Powershield –Powershielding pretty much wrecks ZSS’ game. Since her grab is so laggy, just walk forward slowly while perfect shielding what she throws at you. If you see the grab coming, spotdodge and punish.

Powershield the Jab – If ZSS jabs you (you may need to DI towards the ground), hold shield to powershield the third hit. Get prepared to punish, preferably with a Dthrow.

Learn to Catch the Armor – If you’ve seen some matches of ZSS, the armor does a hell of a lot of damage if they use it right. Learn to catch the armor, then throw it offstage. SH->Dthrow->Uair is a good way to keep the armor.

Inhale the Down B – (situational) If you inhale her and she escapes in midair, you have a guaranteed footstool on her. Make sure to start the inhale as she starts the down b or you will be hit by the sex kick if she pulls it out. She doesn’t get her down b back, so she has her double jump (maybe) and her upb. The footstool stun should last long enough to edgehog her, but you can always ff dair->footstool if it won’t. Be careful, as she can footstool out of her down b which is a special footstool, gives her lots of horizontal distance, she can do the same footstool out of that AND it doesn't shorten the height of her normal footstool.


Spit out or Swallow?
This is really your choice. Spitting out allows you to inhale her out of her down b for a guaranteed footstool, but this is situational. Paralyzer gives you a mid-range projectile, though it isn't that great. It all depends on what you feel most comfortable with.


What NOT to do:

Take Her to the Air – ZSS has better airspeed and aerial attacks than us. Don’t do it.

Rush In – Rush in and you're asking for a side b to the feet. Slowly walk in while powershielding to approach.

Edgecamp Her – If you get hit with a dsmash while edgcamping her, she can use a kill move and you will die. If you get hit with a dsmash at non-kill %'s, you will eat damage.


Stages (in order of priority):
Jungle Japes – Uair is neutralized as a killing move and her horizontal kill moves are hard to land. You can live to extremely high %'s with good DI. If it's not banned, pick it.

Frigate Orpheon– The lack of a ledge on the left side helps you more than you'd expect, and ZSS is bad in general on this stage. Ninja Spiking on the right side of the first transformation is a situational and unknown trick that could net you a kill. Pick it if they ban JJ.


Brinstar– Brinstar limits the use our ground game can be put to and our air game is inferior to ZSS’. The exact combination you DON'T want.

Synopsis:
Zero Suit Samus is a hard matchup, but get a few things down and it won’t be too difficult. Approach by perfect shielding what she throws at you and spotdodging her grab and punishing it. Stay out of the air when you can; your air game is inferior to hers. If you can inhale her out of her down b, do it, as you have a guaranteed footstool on her out of it. Watch out for Dsmash; it leads into all her KO moves. Don’t camp her on the edge of a stage; if you get hit by dsmash, better luck on your next stock.

Major Contributors: DC, fromundaman, Supermodel from Paris
The write-up I did on the matchup when we did it on the Kirby boards.
 

Nefarious B

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You guys already went to Kirby, wow that 5x faster than the Link boards.

That write up is correct, stages are the only thing to really talk about.

Norfair favors people who have sucky recoveries or like to move around platforms more and want Lava to bail them out, it works good for people who can ark their projectiles around the platforms and use them to protect themselves from linear spamming.

So R.O.B., Link, and Toon Link get advantages. I don't think either character gets a good advantage here.

Frigate is a Lucario stage, hands down.

I'm kind of lost on what ZSS will counter pick, Battlefield is good but what else is the question.
This is all written at the bottom of the synopsis btw. We would CP you to RC preferably, if not probably brinstar (we win in the air, small blast zones). Our neutral preference would be BF.

You would have the choice of japes or frigate as good CPs against us, pick which ever we don't ban. I'd personally ban japes every time. FD is probly your best neutral.
 

sasook

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You guys already went to Kirby, wow that 5x faster than the Link boards.
What Link boards? Give up on those already, they're dead. lol

Norfair favors people who have sucky recoveries or like to move around platforms more and want Lava to bail them out, it works good for people who can ark their projectiles around the platforms and use them to protect themselves from linear spamming.

So R.O.B., Link, and Toon Link get advantages. I don't think either character gets a good advantage here.
Eh, I wouldn't say that. It depends. Norfair is supposed to be a really good MK stage in most cases. ZSS also does extremely well on Norfair. It's character-dependent.

quote from writeup said:
DON’T APPROACH FROM UNDER HER. DON’T DO IT.
Really? Underneath her is her one glaring weakness though O.o

quote from writeup said:
Powershield the Jab – If ZSS jabs you (you may need to DI towards the ground), hold shield to powershield the third hit
No ZSS is gonna complete that jab combo xD.

Just 2 things I wanted to point out.



But I'm curious about that swallow -> footstool thing. Someone elaborate?
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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What Link boards? Give up on those already, they're dead. lol
Maybe if I brought the Snake match-up back up again people would post more.

Eh, I wouldn't say that. It depends. Norfair is supposed to be a really good MK stage in most cases. ZSS also does extremely well on Norfair. It's character-dependent.
I thought while MK got some pros to the stage a lot of other characters got more pros from the stage than he did.
 

noradseven

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Sounds like whoever wrote that kirby guide only played scrubby ZSS's and was going off of theory fighter.

I would like to see how he reacts to
PS->utilt
and
(jab(1 hit)->d-tilt) xn

And of course running away, over Bs because kirby is one of the characters this is safe against, woohooo yeah.

Also your b-air stuffs ours, but ours can flatout out range yours.
 

noradseven

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It was, in fact, based off discussion which involved several people from the ZSS boards.
Thats sorta what I was getting at with theory fighter the writeup seemed based off of what you have heard from the ZSS players and some matchup exp against some scrubby ZSS near you.

I mean its p. decent and gives someone a good place to start.
 

ph00tbag

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Sounds like whoever wrote that kirby guide only played scrubby ZSS's and was going off of theory fighter.

I would like to see how he reacts to
PS->utilt
and
(jab(1 hit)->d-tilt) xn

And of course running away, over Bs because kirby is one of the characters this is safe against, woohooo yeah.

Also your b-air stuffs ours, but ours can flatout out range yours.
People who have played a lot of Kirbys will tell you that that "theory fighter" is pretty much how the match-up plays out, though. It's theory fighter with the experience of practice fighter, and honestly, no one should be beaten by jab1 -> dtilt. It only works when mixed in with other things, and on people who spazz out easily.

Personally, I've found that spacing Plasma Whip against Kirby is really hard, because if you're off even slightly, you're going to eat a bair.

Another comment that's important is that Kirby cannot combo with fthrow. You can always Flip Jump out, and that's exactly what you should be doing. Make sure you mix up whether you flip jump over or away from Kirby, because if you get predictable, he can punish pretty hard. Flip Jumping away is generally safer, because he has to land, then run towards you, but if he's expecting it, he has all he needs to punish you. This might be another good situation for Dazwa's patented 112112 pattern, if you're not good at being random.
 

noradseven

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People who have played a lot of Kirbys will tell you that that "theory fighter" is pretty much how the match-up plays out, though. It's theory fighter with the experience of practice fighter, and honestly, no one should be beaten by jab1 -> dtilt. It only works when mixed in with other things, and on people who spazz out easily.

Personally, I've found that spacing Plasma Whip against Kirby is really hard, because if you're off even slightly, you're going to eat a bair.

Another comment that's important is that Kirby cannot combo with fthrow. You can always Flip Jump out, and that's exactly what you should be doing. Make sure you mix up whether you flip jump over or away from Kirby, because if you get predictable, he can punish pretty hard. Flip Jumping away is generally safer, because he has to land, then run towards you, but if he's expecting it, he has all he needs to punish you. This might be another good situation for Dazwa's patented 112112 pattern, if you're not good at being random.
Yeah I know I play Jon's kirby a decent bit, I know how the match works out, and yeah be mindful of the map and posistion and your damage whne you try to escape the combo, because otherwise it may not be worth the risk.

Spacing over B against kirby isn't too hard, just don't get too greedy with it.

Also most kirbys will go for grabs against ZSS all the time at low damages, because A dashing forward on the ground is safe against ZSS and it leads to solid damage, regardless of the fact we can escape.
 

Rajam

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Are the links on the OP correct? Some of them seem to send me anywhere....

EDIT: I checked and it depends on how you have configured the posts-per-page number. I had 20, then i switched to default, and some links are working now, though others still send me to random places in this thread. Maybe you should put the number of the post where the summary is, or else anyone will have problems depending on her/his configuration

Also some matchup summaries are really old, like ROB's (the ratio is still 60:40 there)
 

Kewkky

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What happened to the last 2 pages in the thread? Has there really been lots of deleted replies here? o_O

Any ZSS users going to Pound4? I really want to play against one... In PR, I'm the only power-ranked ZSS/Kirby user, so I haven't had the chance to play a good one... Which means I can't really say anything in MU discussions.
 

solecalibur

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What happened to the last 2 pages in the thread? Has there really been lots of deleted replies here? o_O

Any ZSS users going to Pound4? I really want to play against one... In PR, I'm the only power-ranked ZSS/Kirby user, so I haven't had the chance to play a good one... Which means I can't really say anything in MU discussions.
Im going to season's beatings closest big event I'm going to also the last 2 pages has always been like this (well since I got here) but that glitch has been around in other threads as well
 

Nefarious B

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I played a decent Kirby at Active Gamers in friendlies, one thing I noticed is that hitting a grounded kirby with bair is super predictable, as in easily powershielded, so it is not a good approach in this case. The match took a looooong time (almost timed out) on FD because we were both turtling pretty hard. I found that Kirby had a pretty hard time killing me, and I lived to 120-140 most of the time. If you know the range of fsmash (and don't get predictable with landings) and avoid the hammer, bair is his other best option to kill you. Bair is usually stale first off, and secondly it's very telegraphed just like all bairs are.

Kirby's grab combos are pretty easy to deal with through intelligent use of down b and jumps. DI away from his forward throw, and jump or down b out of dthrow, and the most he should get is maybe a utilt from the fthrow.

I found the whip to be easily spammed as an annoyance without too much risk of punishment, but rarely found it hitting due to Kirby's size.

All in all I'd say 60-40 bordering on 65-35.
 

noradseven

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I played a decent Kirby at Active Gamers in friendlies, one thing I noticed is that hitting a grounded kirby with bair is super predictable, as in easily powershielded, so it is not a good approach in this case. The match took a looooong time (almost timed out) on FD because we were both turtling pretty hard. I found that Kirby had a pretty hard time killing me, and I lived to 120-140 most of the time. If you know the range of fsmash (and don't get predictable with landings) and avoid the hammer, bair is his other best option to kill you. Bair is usually stale first off, and secondly it's very telegraphed just like all bairs are.

Kirby's grab combos are pretty easy to deal with through intelligent use of down b and jumps. DI away from his forward throw, and jump or down b out of dthrow, and the most he should get is maybe a utilt from the fthrow.

I found the whip to be easily spammed as an annoyance without too much risk of punishment, but rarely found it hitting due to Kirby's size.

All in all I'd say 60-40 bordering on 65-35.
Yeah I agree only with 6-4 not 6.5-3.5 kirby is scary, ya gotta be careful. n-air is also good in this match because it stuff's all of kirby's moves and n-air behind them dash/roll away is crazy safe, on block.
 

sasook

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You can SDI the combo after the uair to get out as well. But that's a free 18%. *shrug*
 

Nefarious B

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I think if you just DI or just down b you'll still get hit by the uair before you can get out, if you do both though you might be able to get out with no followup damage. That's really nice considering grabs are really his best method for building damage
 

Roxas1988

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I think if you just DI or just down b you'll still get hit by the uair before you can get out, if you do both though you might be able to get out with no followup damage. That's really nice considering grabs are really his best method for building damage
Yes her uair is one of the best aerials in the game, as well as having immense priority. I think her spacing game can put a stop to kirby's grab game. Kirby does die easily but he can rack up damage on you pretty fast and lets not forget his gimp game and bairs.
 
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