Should Metaknight be Banned? Take 2 (Post-podcast)

SamuraiPanda · Nov 18, 2008

The Show Me Your News team just recently recorded a podcast with various SBR members in the style of a debate. The issue we were debating was, of course, whether or not to ban MK. Here is a temporary download link to the podcast: http://smyn.smashnexus.net/download.php?id=45 . The thread for the Official SBR Podcast can be found here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=201664 . I encourage everyone who has been debating this issue, or wants to learn more about it, to listen to this podcast. It could definitely change what you think about MK.

This is the second poll we're doing now on this issue. It will be interesting to see how people's attitudes have shifted since the first poll was created a month ago, now that people are more educated on the issue. The final split was 1,271 (54%) for the ban to 1,083 (46%) against the ban. Lets see what happens this time.

gantrain05 · Nov 18, 2008

first vote!

Hylian · Nov 18, 2008

I was so close >_<.

This should be interesting

.

gantrain05 · Nov 18, 2008

Hylian said:
I was so close >_<.

This should be interesting .

yeah i dunno, im thinking it might be a little closer than the first poll. either way i won't complain, i really only have 1 really good MK to deal with around here, but its still a pain in the arse.

SamuraiPanda · Nov 18, 2008

Oh snap, its 2-2 right now. I'm on the edge of my seat :D

deepseadiva · Nov 18, 2008

Read the arguments, listened to the podcast, made an informed decision.

Whatever position you take, everyone, please do the same. Let's try and make this poll as scrubless as possible.

gantrain05 · Nov 18, 2008

MenoUnderwater said:
Read the arguments, listened to the podcast, made an informed decision.

Whatever position you take, everyone, please do the same. Let's try and make this poll as scrubless as possible.

i agree, the last poll was filled with a lot of scrubby spam, and it made it hard to really follow peoples opinions on the subject, i personally feel he's overpowered to the point where alot of the metagame mainly revolves around "how can i beat metaknight" instead of furthering skills in the other areas of the game.

Sesshomuronay · Nov 18, 2008

He's good but I dont think its enough to warrant a ban yet.

gantrain05 · Nov 18, 2008

i just think the metagame would grow quicker if MK was out of the equation, people would start to look at other matchups more seriously and we would be learning alot more about the rest of the cast w/out having to worry about MK.

Sesshomuronay · Nov 18, 2008

Also I think that in order to find counters to meta knight we need meta knight to be played so he should remain unbanned.

NeoCrono · Nov 18, 2008

I doubt there is a counter for MK, he might have some neutral match ups or some that he is slightly at a disadvantage (some people say snake) but he wont have a true counter lol

Sesshomuronay · Nov 18, 2008

SugarShiek33 said:
I doubt there is a counter for MK, he might have some neutral match ups or some that he is slightly at a disadvantage (some people say snake) but he wont have a true counter lol

I think thats enough to warrant him not to be banned.

Kiyokiyo · Nov 18, 2008

I agree that taking him out of the equation, we can focus on metagame of other characters. I liked the podcast, it helped me open my mind more to why Meta Knight, in my opinion, should be banned.

DRaGZ · Nov 18, 2008

Sesshomuronay said:
Also I think that in order to find counters to meta knight we need meta knight to be played so he should remain unbanned.

This point isn't true. A lot of games have had characters banned but have had things discovered about them. Case in point, SC2, where Link, Spawn, and Heihachi were banned for being console-specific. It turned out that Link was one of the best ring-outers in the game, Spawn was one of the gayest characters in the game because of his hover/projectile, and Heihachi was actually a pretty good tank, and this was all done outside of tournaments.

NeoCrono · Nov 18, 2008

Sesshomuronay said:
I think thats enough to warrant him not to be banned.

I haven't voted yet, I'm waiting to see what some people say. I'm still going back and forth (a little on the ban side after the podcast) But no one ever won me over. So maybe someone will say something that will lol

DMG · Nov 18, 2008

Instead of arguing over whether MK should be banned or not, I think what we really need to go over is the banning criteria that would be required to ban him. Some people think the fact that he has no bad stages/counters is a good enough reason to ban him, while others think he would need to be stronger than that for a ban.

Everyone knows MK is good, and generally there are disagreements on the extent of his potential, but we should have a somewhat similar banning criteria. If we don't have a somewhat unified banning criteria, then let's try to reach one.

Mmac · Nov 18, 2008

Oh boy, here we go again....

Go Go Flying Yoshi!

The Real Inferno · Nov 18, 2008

*in Apollo Creed voice*

Ding. Ding.

HeroMystic · Nov 18, 2008

I've listened to the podcast and I've been quite firm about the ban, until the whole 'infinities should be banned' thread came up. I guess you can say I got an epiphany.

As broken as Metaknight is, he's not broken enough to break the entire game. However, he -is- broken enough to hurt the metagame due to over-centralization.

Metaknight is the best character, but he may not be so good to the point that none of the other characters can't overcome him with their own strengths.

Therefore I'll settle with being neutral for this debate. I'll go with what the community believes is the best course of action.

Stealth Raptor · Nov 18, 2008

I personally want to wait until january. i am keeping track of ankoku's thread, and if he doesnt begin to drop by then i would vote to ban.

gantrain05 · Nov 18, 2008

except that infinites don't apply to every character, for instance DDD's infinite, works on what? 5 characters including himself? that doesn't matter so much as DDD can easily be counterpicked. the problem with metaknight is that he really doesn't have a counterpick, besides some people that believe snake is one, i personally don't think he is, and then theres the case of stage counterpicking, every other character has unfavorable matchups on certain stages, MK really doesn't he does as good if not better than everyone on all the stages =/

Vyse · Nov 18, 2008

SamuraiPanda said:
Oh snap, its 2-2 right now. I'm on the edge of my seat :D

I lol'd but actually did laugh out loud instead of just snickering a little.

Anyway I'm still anti-ban.
No Johns.

EDIT:

That being said. It wouldn't take much for me to change sides at this point.
Fighting games centered on one character just isn't fun.

Namco had to release a new Tekken 5 purely because of this same issue with Steve Fox. (They run their own Tekken tournament scene).

My stance is purely based on my own opinion as a player.

As a tournament director, I've experienced the tournament scene in my area to enforce its own form of a softban on the character, and I can definitely say that it's players are happier (bar a few).

For me it's a conflict of personal opinion against responsibility.

-Mars- · Nov 18, 2008

I voted no on the ban. He's beatable at this point in time by several characters. If the point is ever reached where his metagame completely exceeds everyone else's by an outrageous margin, then and only then should he be banned.

DRaGZ · Nov 18, 2008

Everyone.

Listen to Edrees. Because he's right.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=5360

BentoBox · Nov 18, 2008

^ He's right only if you indeed do not want to work on the skillset required to play against MK. But some do like the challenge. Nobody is entirely right or wrong.

The Real Inferno · Nov 18, 2008

vyse said:
That being said. It wouldn't take much for me to change sides at this point.
Fighting games centered on one character just isn't fun.

Namco had to release a new Tekken 5 purely because of this same issue with Steve Fox. (They run their own Tekken tournament scene).

My stance is purely based on my own opinion as a player.

As a tournament director, I've experienced the tournament scene in my area to enforce its own form of a softban on the character, and I can definitely say that it's players are happier (bar a few).

For me it's a conflict of personal opinion against responsibility.

This is similiar to how I feel at the moment.

gantrain05 · Nov 18, 2008

BentoBox said:
^ He's right only if you indeed do not want to work on the skillset required to play against MK. But some do like the challenge. Nobody is entirely right or wrong.

except in the end, after all that work you put into training against meta knight, and you go to that one big tournament and you get so close, and then lose to MK, and he wins all the prize money, like he does at every tournament. because its basically a guessing game if you are going to beat metaknight, is he going to make enough stupid mistakes for me to punish him and win? if he doesn't you arent going to win.

Luigi player · Nov 18, 2008

I still can't decide, because I still haven't met an MK that is better than me... (and here in europe there aren't many MK players anyway...)

Ignatius · Nov 18, 2008

Wonder if there'll be any significant difference.

Vyse · Nov 18, 2008

Ignatius said:
Wonder if there'll be any significant difference.

In the results?
Maybe

In the discussion?

Hahahahahahahahaha :laugh:

In all seriousness though. I can see more people becoming pro-ban. As has been said, people are joining the pro-ban side, not the other way around.

JustKindaBoredUKno · Nov 18, 2008

its too bad you can't make it so you have to listen to the podcast first in order to vote, that'd cleanse the poll.

I still say ban him. For these short and simple reasons:
-Not only does he not have disadvantages in matchups, but doesn't even have any legal disadvantaged stages. Being that this is game about punishing screwups and abusing disadvantages, that takes away 1/2 the way to beat a MK.

-That being said. No matter how good you are, a MK at your level (once you reach tourney level) will always beat you. Simply because, if it comes down to skill on skill, MK is just better. You work just as hard to take to rewards. (It would be different to those who main lower-tier for the challenge, they know what they're up against going to tourneys.)

- And for my own biased reason, 5/6 past tourneys I've lost to a MK. I'd simply be better if MK was banned. I'd place higher.

vyse said:
As has been said, people are joining the pro-ban side, not the other way around.

This is why I hope that a ban is inevitable.

And no offense to those who do, but I've yet to see an actual MK main be able to beat me with any other character. Just a point.

Blad01 · Nov 18, 2008

Well, we should definitly ban edge-stalling. If edge-stalling id banned, Falco becomes a soft counter to MK. And then, i can't complain anymore...

(Because i personnally never lost to a MK, but good players here are better than MK mainers).

Hyrus · Nov 18, 2008

JustKindaBoredUKno said:
And no offense to those who do, but I've yet to see an actual MK main be able to beat me with any other character. Just a point.

Implying that the character requires no skill to play has nothing to do with getting a character banned. Your first two points have merit, but you have no point whatsoever if you're reasons are going to be based off of personal bias. That's why "bias" has a negative connotation in the first place.

Ray/Boshi · Nov 18, 2008

After listening to that podcast. (Which showed multiple perspectives on the matter) I was impressed.

I'm yeah and no. More on the no. And even more on the not really caring what happens.

Yeah, he's tough, yeah, he'll be used to cp you main, if the end result will be in his favor. It's a competitive Tournament. The object is to win at all cost. (CG'S ARE MEH) But it's fun trying to avoid them while attempting to get the W.

Unless you there for the lulz like I usually am, among alot of others.

Above all. If MK had a projectile, i'd be all in the yes. I just play defensively gay and campy with projectiles, jabs & grabs. Wether I win or lose, it's never by much.

Xzax Kasrani · Nov 18, 2008

Everyone on this site is ********, you let scrubs vote, of course meta will be ban by here but scrubs dont matter. Meta is broken but not bannable get it threw your head

Da-D-on109 · Nov 18, 2008

I'm honestly a complete and total newb, and I respect if people flame me for posting on such a serious topic with very little understanding of it, but I honestly don't see what is so uber about Meta-Knight.

Da-D-on109 · Nov 18, 2008

Can some one please help me learn exactly what is so uber about Metaknight?

dawgbowl · Nov 18, 2008

My opinion has not changed from the podcast.

I still feel that Metaknight is "THE" counterpick as in... if I choose a particular stage that would benefit against most characters, it doesn't benefit against metaknight. I use metaknight as a counterpick when my main (lucas) fails for the sole reason that, he has no bad matchups so what reason isn't there for me to choose him? and anyone else? everyone should choose him, he has no disadvantage. So we need him OUT.

Lord Viper · Nov 18, 2008

I think Meta Knight has too many unfair advantages, but no he's not super overpowering to the point that you can't beat him worth crap. And I will not say yes until I have three stocked a good Meta Knight main, but I can't because people say they play the same. XP

Snail · Nov 18, 2008

Da-D-on109 said:
Can some one please help me learn exactly what is so uber about Metaknight?

No bad matchups, no bad stages, mostly lagless attacks, one of the best (if not the best) recoveries in the game, downsmash is broken as hell, decent KOing power and amazing gimping abilities... basically there's just nothing bad about him

I'm still neutral in this debate, though. I've never experienced the dominance first-hand because I live in Europe and nobody seems to play MK here... o_O

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Should Metaknight be Banned? Take 2 (Post-podcast)