Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[Backward]

Metaknight has incredibly good matchups. By using Metaknight, your chances of winning a tourney are much greater than from using a mid-tier character. We all know that he has been winning a large proportion (~40-50%) of tournaments.

That, however, is still insufficient to warrant a ban.

Yes. It may be unfun, as well as difficult for most of you to fight against any decent Metaknight. I won't deny that anyone (bar a camp-happy Snake) has a disadvantageous battle against him.

Quite simply, we don't ban characters for overcentralizing the metagame. We don't ban characters for the sake of giving lesser characters a 'fairer chance'. We don't ban them for giving the majority of the cast an uphill battle. And we certainly don't ban them because they make the game less 'fun'. We only ban a character if he is the only option we have to win.

Is he?

No, he isn't.

Think about it, people.

PS: Besides, 'fun' is a rather subjective term.

 

[salaboB]

You state that I make ridiculous claims. All my claims are factual. All my facts can be proven. Not this arbitrary bull**** that you claim like Tornado not having lag. Go play tetris or something. It's fairly simple game, I'm sure you can understand it.

Quit spewing insults when you've already said:

Based on what I know of Peach, you're a terrible player if you think Jungle Japes or Luigis Mansion are of any benefit to her. I'd actually argue they're terrible for her. Your example holds no ground here.

and then were shot down and forced to admit you didn't know what you were talking about here.

You have not "only stated facts that can be proven" any more than anyone else, but have managed more direct insults than any other poster so far in this thread.

 

[Justblaze647]

I just wanna say that comparing melee fox to MK isn't going to take this argument anywhere. that comparison is essentially like comparing the games brawl and melee, which are definetly not the same thing... I say all of that to say don't bring up melee in a discussion about brawl... they are two completely different games in the same series...

 

[MorphedChaos]

Ooh, another analogy to relate to MK. You must put out more skill to beat an MK more then any other character, even if its a newbi MK. Now, Heres where the kicker comes in. You beat that MK, but just like Silent Hill or Resident Evil, you kill 1 zombie, Another arises until your dead. Thats whats happening with MK, you have to pump out so much skill to beat one character who can be picked up and mastered in 3 days, while your main takes at least a couple months, and you have to fight him over and over. Eventually you'll get exhausted, and go over to MK, or the zombie's side. MK is a plague like that, you see. And thats a big argument why hes being banned.

And for all the people who will do Melee facts. You could be Fox, Falco, Shiek, Peaach, or Capt Falcon and do good, while here, its only MK.

 

[gantrain05]

Metaknight has incredibly good matchups. By using Metaknight, your chances of winning a tourney are much greater than from using a mid-tier character. We all know that he has been winning a large proportion (~40-50%) of tournaments.

That, however, is still insufficient to warrant a ban.

Yes. It may be unfun, as well as difficult for most of you to fight against any decent Metaknight. I won't deny that anyone (bar a camp-happy Snake) has a disadvantageous battle against him.

Quite simply, we don't ban characters for overcentralizing the metagame. We don't ban characters for the sake of giving lesser characters a 'fairer chance'. We don't ban them for giving the majority of the cast an uphill battle. And we certainly don't ban them because they make the game less 'fun'. We only ban a character if he is the only option we have to win.

Is he?

No, he isn't.

Think about it, people.

PS: Besides, 'fun' is a rather subjective term.

thats not true at all, we BAN things in smash bros to make the game more competetive, and w/out MK the game IS more competetive, your logic fails. its the same as banning stages and items, and don't give that BS "banning a character is a whole different thing" thats stupid and illogical as a counterargument. you say banning items is a setting, you say banning stages is a setting, you know what else, selecting a chacracter is part of that setting as well. you say we ban those stages because of hazards that are unnavoidable, well what about the stages that are banned that dont have hazards? hannenbow, shadow moses, and even stages with MINIMAL hazards are banned while stages such as pirate ship are left in counterpicks, so a character can chaingrab you to death on bridge of eldin? maybe thats what metaknight needs, a stage where he can actually be killed and has a disadvantage, he wouldn't do to hot on shadow moses either, theres no edges to gimp, and theres a high cieling, maybe if we enabled those stages as MK counterpicks they wouldn't be winning so much.

 

[petrie911]

The only time it is ever an intelligent decision to pick Meta Knight, strictly by match up ratios are concerned to avoid being CP'd, is during the first set of a match, as well as when you win. You will only be CP'd during those two scenarios. If you lose, you are better off picking another character to suit your match up, unless of course Meta Knight happens to be the best choice for that match, i.e. Marth, Ice Climbers.

But that doesn't even take in to consideration character style for the player at hand, or the opponent. It also doesn't take in to consideration match up experience. Or personal preference. It even ignores stage decision, despite how good Meta Knight is on almost if not all stages. People do not follow these rules by the book. Even if they did, Meta Knight isn't the best all around choice every time.

And that's only if you want to agree that Meta Knight has no disadvantages (which I strongly disagree on, as well as many others).

There are also a large number of people who say he has no disadvantages. The posts I'm making are working from that assumption.

Yes, you are better off picking another character to suit your match up. But your opponent is not going to blindly pick a character. He knows just as well as you that he should pick MK to prevent being CPed. Yes, if your opponent is going to pick Snake knowing full well you could use Dedede or Pika or anyone else that has a good matchup with Snake, you should do so, but he's not going to if he's playing to win.

I don't see how character style is relevant. People will use the best strategy for their character, or they will find themselves losing a lot more than they win. Matchup experience only benefits the MK-only player, as he needs to know fewer matchups. Personal preference is irrelevant when you are playing to win. Stage choice is also irrelevant when it won't be putting you at a disadvantage. Admittedly, you could CP a stage that, say, Snake has an even matchup with MK on, but all you've managed to do there is garner an even matchup, which you could have done anyways by picking MK, which is independent of stage.

People may not always play the optimal strategy, but playing a suboptimal one will only give worse results. There are situations in which MK is not the best choice, but they only arise when your opponent plays suboptimally, and they only serve to increase your advantage.

Also, note that the optimal strategy need not be "everyone plays the same character". In fact, it's only the optimal strategy when said character has no disadvantages. If MK has a real disadvantage against a character, however slight, that character will see some play. However, the smaller the disadvantage, the more MK will see play, and it may turn out that MK is effectively the only character played despite that one slight disadvantage.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I'm answering these in order of quote, since you made it difficult.

1) Fox did not have counters. Marth could CG to death Fox on Final Destination. Marth was not considered a counter. No character was. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Marth countered fox 6:4 not only because of the CG but because of his gameplay and his ability to exploits Fox's abilities better than Fox did the other way around.
It was a soft counter anyway so meh.

5) Snake doesn't need to be a clear cut counter. He has an advantage, regardless of how large or minimal. I do not need to get your biased opinion through my head.

he is stating Snak doesn't have an advantage at all and at best goes even with him.
The argument fo Snake having an advantage on MK was based off of Metaknight's early metagame where people played rather aggressively.

Based on what I know of Peach, you're a terrible player if you think Jungle Japes or Luigis Mansion are of any benefit to her. I'd actually argue they're terrible for her. Your example holds no ground here. As for your Olimar example, he's able to pivot grab Meta Knight out of his Tornado rather easily, or use his Pikmin Chain. Learn about what it is you're talking about before trying to convey your opinion as truth by quoting me.

he can only grab him when Mk is on the ground with the tornado and it is rather hard to perform since no MK is going to tornado from far away along the ground.
Pikmin chain works better but if MK is upclose its a bit more difficult to perform

In either case, you picked the worst possible examples for each character. Why you would fight their with those characters is beyond me. You must enjoy losing. And again, Meta Knight does alright on Yoshis Island (Melee version was not in my post, so I'm ignoring that), but it isn't his best stage either. There are other characters who simply do better on that stage.

10) Yeah, we did go over this. You still didn't refute what I was claiming. Also, despite the fact that Meta Knight does beat Fox, Pikachu is an infinitely better choice. In the hands of anyone with a brain, Fox simply can't beat a Pikachu. Fox can, however, despite the difficulty, beat Meta Knight. I've seen some of the best Meta Knights in the GTA go fairly even with Fox.

yeah MK is a slightly easier matchup for Fox in comparison to Pikachu but he still gets hard countered.
You will still have a high chance of losing than you would of winning.
So if the person is smart you'll lose most of the time if not all.

11) You're right. Tornado can't be broken through or punished after the lag from a shield.

MK has 0 lag upon landing with the tornado from just a bit beyond Sh height. You'll eat a Dsmash or Dtilt.
It can be broken but the issue is that in most situations where the tornado is used, it is ahrd to land that hit that will break it.

Glide Attack can't be clanked with, out prioritized, Shield Grabbed, PS'd, or dodge to punished.

Dodge punished? How? he has no lag upon landing when using the glide attack near the ground.
most dodges last 22 frames on average.
1 frame vs 22 frame dodge.
Which will win?

The rest of of what you said is correct.

Fair and Bair can't be out spaced.

What moves beat it in range and priority?
I was messing with it and when I had DK perform a Bair upon the Fair Dk's Bair was broken.
Probably screwed up somewhere so can you clarify please?

DTilt can't be short hopped over.

15 frame move+high range means SH over it isn't exactly the best idea unless you were SH before it came out.

i'll get to your other posts Ulevo.
I do agree with most of what you said but feel a few things are a bit off.

You don't need lightning fast reflexes to avoid Meta Knights DTilt. It's called spacing.

Really now?
the best way to beat out MK's Dtilt is to simply powershield then attack as soon as possible.
Which can be difficult considering the range. You are best trying to jump over and perform an aerial but I find that isn't a perfect solution to it.
More depends on how far away they are when they use it.
Do you know what that is? You certainly don't know how to DI, so I'm unsure if you do.

Shuttle Loop is very easy to punish since Glide Attack is very unsafe on grounded opponents and if Meta Knight retreats to another locations, the other character will either hit him from below or follow him.

Shuttle loop isn't part of glide attack.
Moving on.
if you glide attack purely as a defensive move they won't be capable of punishing you. The properties of canceling on the ground allow MK to be difficult to punish un;less he tries to hit you with the glide attack (which he shouldn't IMO)

Tornado can be broken through by a vast majority of moves (I made an entire list on them), or you can punish the lag afterwards. There is lag afterwards, by the way. Despite spacing efforts, Meta Knight can't avoid this against a character that isn't horrendously slow.

you are incorrect. The amount of lag is 0 if he finishes the tornado a bit above SH height.
SO that means you'll run into a Dtilt or Fair or Dsmash.
Alot fo moves break the tornado but that says nothing about WHEN they can be used.
how often will Olimar grab MK out of his tornado?
What about Snake?
How about Sonic's Fsmash?
Just because a move breaks the tornado says nothing about how easily it can be done and the situation(s) required.

You state that I make ridiculous claims. All my claims are factual. All my facts can be proven. Not this arbitrary bull**** that you claim like Tornado not having lag. Go play tetris or something. It's fairly simple game, I'm sure you can understand it.

its been proven to not have lag Ulevo.
let alone that the lag even when not done perfectly is not very large (around a couple of frames).
Considering he can move away the lag isn't an issue when he tornadoes,

Good, I'm glad to hear it. I'm tired of wasting my efforts on members like you, who post ludicrous claims such as DSmash sending at low angles, or Link ****** G&W, or Falco doing bad against most of the cast. You're an idiot, bold and true. The less time I spend fixing your claims and correcting your mistakes, the more time I have to do something productive.

Stop flaming Ulevo you just hurt your argument.
Link does tend to do better against G&W. He doesn't **** him but he does better off than some of the cast.
I don't believe he said that Falco does poorly against most of the cast. More that he doesn't have very large advantages since post chain grab percents, he can have some issues with some characters.
Dsmash claim was incorrect.

 

[gantrain05]

ok we get it Ulevo doesn't want his main to be banned so he posts a bunch of false stupid crap begging us to vote no, i get it now. "uh huh MK can be punished from his attacks, his tornado can be pivot grabbed, you can space his Dtilt, DUH ITS CALLED DI" well guess what Ulevo, a GOOD mk is going to be the one spacing you, not the other way around, you see, he's offensive he's always in your face and you will not 99% be able to outprioritize any of his moves, tornado can ONLY be punished if MK uses it at the wrong time, say he's half of final D away from you, but if he follows up a Fair or dash attack with tornado its right on you and you have no time to react, you can only MAYBE get a shield up in time. your calling me the noob when your saying that peach's best stages are terrible for her, and yes fox will beat king DDD if the players are of equal skill imo, he can't chaingrab, and once fox starts a combo it can be as much as 100% or more before DDD can even touch the ground again, and YES link beats game and watch man, you've never seen a good link b4 i can tell you that. He can space Game and watch so well he can barely approach. obviously you are wrong when everybody here is arguing with you, your all alone.

 

[Ulevo]

Judging from the tone of this comment and the points that followed, I think you meant to say "weren't".

...I've got nothing else to contribute atm.

Edit: How about this -- can we try to keep the name calling down? It doesn't help your point to litter "stupid" and "you're dumb" throughout it, and it just riles people on both sides of the discussion up.

I am very, very patient, and very respectful as an individual. But this is asinine. Most of the members contributing to this entire topic are just repeating random garbage other posters who sounded more intelligent then they did already posted about. This is in regards to banning a character, which is a significant deal, and people are making terrible contributions based on their lack of experience, personal bias, false assumptions, propaganda... I've had enough. If more people were to actually discuss this intelligently with factual statements that make sense, I wouldn't feel it necessary to be so crude.

 

[NeoCrono]

Metaknight has incredibly good matchups. By using Metaknight, your chances of winning a tourney are much greater than from using a mid-tier character. We all know that he has been winning a large proportion (~40-50%) of tournaments.

That, however, is still insufficient to warrant a ban.

Yes. It may be unfun, as well as difficult for most of you to fight against any decent Metaknight. I won't deny that anyone (bar a camp-happy Snake) has a disadvantageous battle against him.

Quite simply, we don't ban characters for overcentralizing the metagame. We don't ban characters for the sake of giving lesser characters a 'fairer chance'. We don't ban them for giving the majority of the cast an uphill battle. And we certainly don't ban them because they make the game less 'fun'. We only ban a character if he is the only option we have to win.

Is he?

No, he isn't.

Think about it, people.

PS: Besides, 'fun' is a rather subjective term.

MK has no bad match ups(snake arguably) , no really bad stages (Green Greens arguably).
A lot of people have been trying to beat MK, but have really had little or no success.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am very, very patient, and very respectful as an individual. But this is asinine. Most of the members contributing to this entire topic are just repeating random garbage other posters who sounded more intelligent then they did already posted about. This is in regards to banning a character, which is a significant deal, and people are making terrible contributions based on their lack of experience, personal bias, false assumptions, propaganda... I've had enough. If more people were to actually discuss this intelligently with factual statements that make sense, I wouldn't feel it necessary to be so crude.

you ignore my posts...

 

[Backward]

thats not true at all, we BAN things in smash bros to make the game more competetive, and w/out MK the game IS more competetive, your logic fails. its the same as banning stages and items, and don't give that BS "banning a character is a whole different thing" thats stupid and illogical as a counterargument. you say banning items is a setting, you say banning stages is a setting, you know what else, selecting a chacracter is part of that setting as well. you say we ban those stages because of hazards that are unnavoidable, well what about the stages that are banned that dont have hazards? hannenbow, shadow moses, and even stages with MINIMAL hazards are banned while stages such as pirate ship are left in counterpicks, so a character can chaingrab you to death on bridge of eldin? maybe thats what metaknight needs, a stage where he can actually be killed and has a disadvantage, he wouldn't do to hot on shadow moses either, theres no edges to gimp, and theres a high cieling, maybe if we enabled those stages as MK counterpicks they wouldn't be winning so much.

That's a very educated response. That is just one thing I'd like to point out.

I'm not sure as to where you're getting this misconception from, but Smash, as a respectable fighting game, only ban things if they take away competition.

For example, the reason as to why Dedede's infinite was banned was not to improve the viability of those five characters. It was only because of the ease in getting the infinite in such that 'don't get grabbed' seems extremely unlikely no matter at what level (though to a certain extent the ease of execution as well) that eliminated any competition whatsoever in those five matchups.

Does Metaknight remove competition? Does he eliminate competition in any matchup? Yes, he is relatively easy to pick up and use. Yes, as long as you make less mistakes with him than your opponent, you are quite likely to win. But no, he does not make any matchup impossible (save for one or perhaps two) I can certainly see where you're coming from stating that there would be a larger variety of winning characters. That, however, is not we call 'more competition'. Different characters are winning, but is that any more competitive than Metaknight winning a third of the tournaments today?

I think you may be mixing up 'competition' with variety, and to a lesser extent, some loose definition of fun.

I think you mentioned something about stages, but I couldn't really understand your sentences. Forgive me, I'm Asian.

 

[1048576]

If Melee Fox made a mistake, he lost the stock. A "mistake" for Melee Fox meant acting on Frame 5 instead of Frame 4. You can't punish Meta in like fashion, and it's much easier to avoid mistakes with him.

Obviously the decision isn't clear cut, but I don't understand why that makes for a good anti-ban argument.

Melee had four characters dominating the tournament scene. Brawl has one. I know this is scrubby, but I need a competitive scene with more than one character to hold my interest. I am bored with this METAgame and I'll enter tourneys again when he is banned. We don't need to cope with anything. If we wanted to ban ftilts, we could. It's just a matter of whether or not such an action would foster community growth and competitive fairness.

Metaknight does not have disadvantaged matchups. His matchups have been discussed thuroughly and the general consensus is that Snake and MK are the best matchups against MK, and they are both 50-50. MK also has no bad stages. His primary weaknesses, poor aerial mobility and light weight are unexploitable due to his massive range and near lagless attacks. There is no reasonable character or stage you can pick to hope to beat a Metaknight on your skill level. The MK player can ban your best stage. Even if your 2nd best stage gives you a 60-40 against MK (try coming up with an example for that), MK can just pick your 2nd worst stage and return the favor with at least a 70-30.

Obviously if you are more skilled, you can beat MK. It seems like in every situation, MK has three times the options that his opponent does.

Also, I don't see what's wrong with banning him and then bringing him back when an anti-MK technique is discovered. The former MK mains will have as much skill left with MK as the people playing against him, so his metagame will regrow on an even playing field. Furthermore, we can finally start to develop other characters. You can't deny that this game has been MK-centric for some time and many characters' matchups are completely unexplored. I think the metagame is more stagnant now than it would be if we banned MK. I think more people are quitting now than would be if MK were banned.
__________________

 

[Dark Sonic]

1) Fox did not have counters. Marth could CG to death Fox on Final Destination. Marth was not considered a counter. No character was. You have no clue what you're talking about.

Let's not forget the platform ****, and the uair chains, and the ken combos, and the massive range advantage, and Marth's grab outranging all of Fox's moves while being disjointed as well. (with the exception of upsmash and maybe f-tilt or d-tilt) If Fox makes a mistake...he dies. If Marth makes a mistake...he takes a few hits (Marth is really hard to combo). Fox has the speed needed to get in Marth's range...but one prediction gets Marth a pivot grab, which easily racks a lot of damage. Admittedly, it is a very even matchup...but a stage can easily change this.

Marth's matchup against Fox has always been very stage dependant though. Marth gets the slight edge on half of the neutrals, while Fox gets...an even matchup on the others. On most of the counterpicks Fox gets a slight advantage though (I wonder how Falco does on counterpicks...)

Falco has always been an arguable case as well, but I'm not going to get into that because...I don't know much about the Falco vs Fox matchup, other than that they combo the hell out of each other (Falco does it much better), and gimp and edgeguard each other really easily (Fox does it much better).

 

[DMG]

I've waited for someone to tell me what the bannng criteria is/should be. Anyone wanna give that a shot?

 

[gantrain05]

1048576, that is exactly how i feel, and i don't see how the anti-ban side doesn't get this. and more characters fighting for top spots DOES mean more competetive because it gives more characters a chance at winning, its not all MK, its not competetive if a sonic main enters a tourney full of MK's he'll just get destroyed, sure its competetive for the MK's but then that is only centering around one character.......but the game includes 39, i'd rather see 38 characters competing for spots rather than 1.......thats just me.

 

[gantrain05]

I've waited for someone to tell me what the bannng criteria is/should be. Anyone wanna give that a shot?

well, im not sure what the official SBR banning criteria would be, but for me it seems it should be enough just to make the game more competetive, increase the metagame, and make more characters viable options.

double post ><

 

[MorphedChaos]

I've waited for someone to tell me what the bannng criteria is/should be. Anyone wanna give that a shot?

People can't decide, as the Anti-ban side loves to pick it apart with irrelivent data, or outdated data. SBR is considering a ban as the Metagame is degrading to MK vs MK, MK is causing people to leave the smash tourny scene, and is just a ticking atomic bomb waiting to happen on the smash community as a whole.

 

[M.K]

I'm answering these in order of quote, since you made it difficult.

1) Fox did not have counters. Marth could CG to death Fox on Final Destination. Marth was not considered a counter. No character was. You have no clue what you're talking about.

2) It doesn't matter if people are being steered away by Meta Knight. By broadcasting false information and poor arguments, it gives everyone the wrong idea on the topic. I have nothing personal against any of the four individuals in the debate, but they really were not the best people for idea.

3) What a cop out. Just because a character is superior to another in similar fashion does not indicate that they are broken, nor is it a good way to measure if they are broken on the majority in comparison with everyone else. I'm going to ignore this as I simply do not like delving in to realms of different fighters for debates, and you totally missed the point.

4) It wasn't special advanced techniques that brought Sheik down to High Tier, it was the practice of simple basics and essentials along with match up experience. If you do not know how to fight Sheik, you will lose. Meta Knight is no different. I always here this crap from Overswarm. "We're not going to develop any new advanced techniques in order to deal with Meta Knight. Brawl is shallow. We're not a community that doesn't DI probably like we were back in Melee." Right. We're not DIing poorly huh? A month ago or so ago, barely anyone knew how to properly recover. That is a BASIC, and ESSENTIAL to playing Smash. And you're telling me you want to ban the best character when the vast majority of the community can't even get the simplest of Smash basics down? You're out to lunch.

5) Snake doesn't need to be a clear cut counter. He has an advantage, regardless of how large or minimal. I do not need to get your biased opinion through my head.

Based on what I know of Peach, you're a terrible player if you think Jungle Japes or Luigis Mansion are of any benefit to her. I'd actually argue they're terrible for her. Your example holds no ground here. As for your Olimar example, he's able to pivot grab Meta Knight out of his Tornado rather easily, or use his Pikmin Chain. Learn about what it is you're talking about before trying to convey your opinion as truth by quoting me.

In either case, you picked the worst possible examples for each character. Why you would fight their with those characters is beyond me. You must enjoy losing. And again, Meta Knight does alright on Yoshis Island (Melee version was not in my post, so I'm ignoring that), but it isn't his best stage either. There are other characters who simply do better on that stage.

6) Let me get this straight. You think that Fox ***** King Dedede, that Link beats G&W, and that Falco does poor against most of the cast? If I were a disrespectful prick, I'd stop quoting you here for you're stupidity, but I'll continue.

7) Of course it's a personal problem. That is why I was pointing it out. You shouldn't make such claims to support an argument. Pay attention.

8) It's called character style. Each character is unique, and plays differently. You're making a general assumption, and looking stupid for it.

9) I wasn't stating G&W was unbeatable you moron. And please elaborate as to how G&W does poorly on a Pokemon Stadium. Do not involve other characters during your example either, as we are talking about Stage Picks, not Counter Picks.

10) Yeah, we did go over this. You still didn't refute what I was claiming. Also, despite the fact that Meta Knight does beat Fox, Pikachu is an infinitely better choice. In the hands of anyone with a brain, Fox simply can't beat a Pikachu. Fox can, however, despite the difficulty, beat Meta Knight. I've seen some of the best Meta Knights in the GTA go fairly even with Fox.

11) You're right. Tornado can't be broken through or punished after the lag from a shield. Glide Attack can't be clanked with, out prioritized, Shield Grabbed, PS'd, or dodge to punished. Fair and Bair can't be out spaced. Nothing beats Shuttle Loop. DTilt can't be short hopped over. FTilt has no commitment. DSmash can't be punished by jab, grab, or other attacks. You're completely right.

12) Do you not know how to DI? Like... at all? Just by holding up (I'm not even going in to specific angles for specific attacks), the killing power of not just DSmash, but even Shuttle Loop, is reduced drastically. You have absolutely no clue as to what you're talking about. DSmash doesn't even send you at a low angle. Do you attempt to Crouch Cancel every time? I don't even know why I'm posting to you.

13) Meta Knight winning tournaments does not translate in to broken.


Seriously. Thanks for wasting my life. Do you even play Brawl?

This is failure at it's best. It's really like watching someone beg for something with baseless, useless, and mostly wrong assumptions. I'm not responding to all of it.
You just wasted your own life, so...have fun with that.

 

[Backward]

I've waited for someone to tell me what the bannng criteria is/should be. Anyone wanna give that a shot?

The same criteria for any fighting game character ban sounds reasonable. If he or she is the only (or almost) feasible option to win. To put this in more realistic terms, say if MK had 65-35 matchups or better against every member of the cast.

Acceptable?

 

[HeroMystic]

Best character = game breaking. Why argue your own point?

No disadvantages, stage or otherwise = game breaking. Again, argueing your own point.

Being the best character does not warrant a ban alone. Having uphill battles with all characters doesn't necessarily warrant a ban either. That just means he's the most safe character to use in a competitive environment.

It's how good he is compared to the rest of the cast is whether or not he's game-breaking.

33% Dominance is insane. He IS that much better. I can name a few practical disadvantages to every character besides MK.

The dominance is rather insane, but a large number of things can be factored into it. Popularity is a pretty large factor if you ask me. Everyone is using metaknight.

Answer this. Why is MK dominating? Is the answer "just because people happen to pick him for no apparent reason?" no. its because "people pick him because he's so good." The answer is there.

This cannot be argued with however.

@Ulevo: Stop being a douche. You're hurting the anti-ban side more than the ban side with your blatant insults.

EDIT: God, this topic moves fast.

 

[gantrain05]

The same criteria for any fighting game character ban sounds reasonable. If he or she is the only (or almost) feasible option to win. To put this in more realistic terms, say if MK had 65-35 matchups or better against every member of the cast.

Acceptable?

no, because smash is not a traditional fighting game, i don't think the same rules apply.

 

[DMG]

People can't decide

Let's decide what the criteria is here and now. U can't ban/keep a character unless you have a criteria established.

The question shouldn't be "Do we ban MK or not?", The real question we should ask is whether or not he meets/does not meet the requirements for a ban. Until we establish something recognizable, there's no point in even talking about a ban. :/

Obviously if he meets the requirements, U ban him. If not, then you keep him. So let's get cracking and start talking about that for a change.

 

[Ulevo]

tornado can ONLY be punished if MK uses it at the wrong time, say he's half of final D away from you, but if he follows up a Fair or dash attack with tornado its right on you and you have no time to react, you can only MAYBE get a shield up in time.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191593



Again, it's called spacing. Learn how to do it. There's also something called the Shield.

your calling me the noob

Now now, I never once called you a noob. Noobs are associated with the word newbie, which means inexperienced. I called you stupid.

when your saying that peach's best stages are terrible for her, and yes fox will beat king DDD if the players are of equal skill imo, he can't chaingrab, and once fox starts a combo it can be as much as 100% or more before DDD can even touch the ground again,

Peaches double jump is terrible, and one of her best methods of KO's is completely vertical. Jungle Japes ruins her on both those aspects of her game. And you're telling me is a good stage for her? I'm not a Peach main, and I very well could be wrong here, but I sincerely doubt it.

Fox has no where near the range King Dedede has. King Dedede isn't all of a sudden at a disadvantage if he can't CG you. His range and weight are ridiculous. Plus he can gimp Fox very easily due to how one dimensional his recovery methods are. I'm not arguing Fox can't win, it isn't a **** match up. But Fox does not go even.

and YES link beats game and watch man, you've never seen a good link b4 i can tell you that. He can space Game and watch so well he can barely approach. obviously you are wrong when everybody here is arguing with you, your all alone.

I personally believe Link to be a decent character. He can't compete with G&W. His recovery is absolutely horrid. Even with proper DI, once he's off stage, he's gone. That's just the facts.
And you're trying to talk to me about spacing? Last time I checked, G&W had the best Bair in the game. If you could please mention to me how Link gets around this at close quarters, I'd love to be enlightened. We're debating facts, remember?

It's rather disappointing when you're crutch for an argument on why I am wrong here is to point out that others are arguing with me aside from you. All of Smashboards could disagree with me, it doesn't make me any less wrong or right on the matter. Until you actually provide factual statements to put me in my place, I have no reason to believe that you or anyone else here actually knows what it is they're talking about.

And you, my friend, sincerely do not know what you're talking about.

 

[HeroMystic]

The same criteria for any fighting game character ban sounds reasonable. If he or she is the only (or almost) feasible option to win. To put this in more realistic terms, say if MK had 65-35 matchups or better against every member of the cast.

Acceptable?

That is not acceptable.

As said many times before, Brawl is not a traditional fighting game, nor anywhere close to it. It's also a sorry excuse for a fighting game on base level. The reason why it's a competitive fighting game as it is right now is because we, the community, said so.

Following other fighting games, even Melee, will not work here.

 

[Backward]

no, because smash is not a traditional fighting game, i don't think the same rules apply.

Do they not? You aim to take all your opponents' lives (stocks). The only difference is that you have to get your opponent off the screen, as compared to taking out a health bar. Metaknight is very good at doing that. Metaknight equivalent in other games are very good at taking out a health bar. Exactly how different are they such that a comparison cannot be made at all? How do we judge this game, if not with comparison?

 

[gantrain05]

Let's decide what the criteria is here and now. U can't ban/keep a character unless you have a criteria established.

The question shouldn't be "Do we ban MK or not?", The real question we should ask is whether or not he meets/does not meet the requirements for a ban. Until we establish something recognizable, there's no point in even talking about a ban. :/

Obviously if he meets the requirements, U ban him. If not, then you keep him. So let's get cracking and start talking about that for a change.

i agree with you, its just, i think this could get even more messy than the ban metaknight question. my opinion is

does banning said character

1. increase competetivness?

2.help to evolve the metagame?

those are the 2 big ones, and there are other arguments him dominating the game which is also true to an extent, and him having no disadvantages which is also true.

 

[HeroMystic]

And you're trying to talk to me about spacing? Last time I checked, G&W had the best Bair in the game. If you could please mention to me how Link gets around this at close quarters, I'd love to be enlightened. We're debating facts, remember?

It's called a Z-air.

Link does well against G&W because he can easily force him away. Just because he has a horrid recovery doesn't mean it's an auto-loss.

Link's a bad character overall, but soley because of his recovery. That doesn't mean his strengths are null.

 

[gantrain05]

is ulevo still talking? oh well, and he didn't jsut tell me peach's best KO options are all vertical.....and her double jump is trash, more proof he doesn't know what he's talking about. cuz you know, every peach player COMPLETELY relies on their completely situation upsmash for every single KO. you know, and theres not OTHER reasons why jungle japes is an excellent stage for peach, one of the best horizontal recoveries int eh game, turnip camping platforms, being able to even float UNDER the main platform and uair thru it, with the clap trap timed at every 10 seconds its not hard to do. learn your facts before you start stating stages that are bad for characters you know nothing about.

 

[Ulevo]

ok we get it Ulevo doesn't want his main to be banned so he posts a bunch of false stupid crap begging us to vote no, i get it now.

Begging? I'm not begging anyone. I'm separating you from everyone else specifically by quoting your posts within this topic, and commenting on your moronic claims. I don't care what you vote, I care what you contribute. At this point, it certainly isn't a whole lot.

Also, my main is Marth. Meta Knight is a secondary main.

"uh huh MK can be punished from his attacks, his tornado can be pivot grabbed, you can space his Dtilt, DUH ITS CALLED DI" well guess what Ulevo, a GOOD mk is going to be the one spacing you, not the other way around, you see, he's offensive he's always in your face and you will not 99% be able to outprioritize any of his moves,

Really? Oh. So Marths Fair doesn't go through Meta Knights? Marths DTilt doesn't beat Meta Knights? Marths Jab doesn't clank with his Glide Attack? ****, and here I thought I had it all figured out. You must be real smart and know something I don't.

tornado can ONLY be punished if MK uses it at the wrong time, say he's half of final D away from you, but if he follows up a Fair or dash attack with tornado its right on you and you have no time to react, you can only MAYBE get a shield up in time.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=191593



Again, it's called spacing. Learn how to do it. There's also something called the Shield.

your calling me the noob

Now now, I never once called you a noob. Noobs are associated with the word newbie, which means inexperienced. I called you stupid.

when your saying that peach's best stages are terrible for her, and yes fox will beat king DDD if the players are of equal skill imo, he can't chaingrab, and once fox starts a combo it can be as much as 100% or more before DDD can even touch the ground again,

Peaches double jump is terrible, and one of her best methods of KO's is completely vertical. Jungle Japes ruins her on both those aspects of her game. And you're telling me is a good stage for her? I'm not a Peach main, and I very well could be wrong here, but I sincerely doubt it.

Fox has no where near the range King Dedede has. King Dedede isn't all of a sudden at a disadvantage if he can't CG you. His range and weight are ridiculous. Plus he can gimp Fox very easily due to how one dimensional his recovery methods are. I'm not arguing Fox can't win, it isn't a **** match up. But Fox does not go even.

and YES link beats game and watch man, you've never seen a good link b4 i can tell you that. He can space Game and watch so well he can barely approach. obviously you are wrong when everybody here is arguing with you, your all alone.

I personally believe Link to be a decent character. He can't compete with G&W. His recovery is absolutely horrid. Even with proper DI, once he's off stage, he's gone. That's just the facts.
And you're trying to talk to me about spacing? Last time I checked, G&W had the best Bair in the game. If you could please mention to me how Link gets around this at close quarters, I'd love to be enlightened. We're debating facts, remember?

It's rather disappointing when you're crutch for an argument on why I am wrong here is to point out that others are arguing with me aside from you. All of Smashboards could disagree with me, it doesn't make me any less wrong or right on the matter. Until you actually provide factual statements to put me in my place, I have no reason to believe that you or anyone else here actually knows what it is they're talking about.

And you, my friend, sincerely do not know what you're talking about.

 

[petrie911]

There are also a large number of people who say he has no disadvantages. The posts I'm making are working from that assumption.

Yes, you are better off picking another character to suit your match up. But your opponent is not going to blindly pick a character. He knows just as well as you that he should pick MK to prevent being CPed. Yes, if your opponent is going to pick Snake knowing full well you could use Dedede or Pika or anyone else that has a good matchup with Snake, you should do so, but he's not going to if he's playing to win.

I don't see how character style is relevant. People will use the best strategy for their character, or they will find themselves losing a lot more than they win. Matchup experience only benefits the MK-only player, as he needs to know fewer matchups. Personal preference is irrelevant when you are playing to win. Stage choice is also irrelevant when it won't be putting you at a disadvantage. Admittedly, you could CP a stage that, say, Snake has an even matchup with MK on, but all you've managed to do there is garner an even matchup, which you could have done anyways by picking MK, which is independent of stage.

People may not always play the optimal strategy, but playing a suboptimal one will only give worse results. There are situations in which MK is not the best choice, but they only arise when your opponent plays suboptimally, and they only serve to increase your advantage.

Also, note that the optimal strategy need not be "everyone plays the same character". In fact, it's only the optimal strategy when said character has no disadvantages. If MK has a real disadvantage against a character, however slight, that character will see some play. However, the smaller the disadvantage, the more MK will see play, and it may turn out that MK is effectively the only character played despite that one slight disadvantage.

Would you mind taking a break from his "moronic claims" and responding to this?

 

[gantrain05]

Would you mind taking a break from his moronic claims and responding to this?

ouch........

 

[Stealth Raptor]

Let's decide what the criteria is here and now. U can't ban/keep a character unless you have a criteria established.

The question shouldn't be "Do we ban MK or not?", The real question we should ask is whether or not he meets/does not meet the requirements for a ban. Until we establish something recognizable, there's no point in even talking about a ban. :/

Obviously if he meets the requirements, U ban him. If not, then you keep him. So let's get cracking and start talking about that for a change.

the only problem is either side can set criteria to help their argument.

 

[salaboB]

Do they not? You aim to take all your opponents' lives (stocks). The only difference is that you have to get your opponent off the screen, as compared to taking out a health bar. Metaknight is very good at doing that. Metaknight equivalent in other games are very good at taking out a health bar. Exactly how different are they such that a comparison cannot be made at all? How do we judge this game, if not with comparison?

Stages don't impact matchups in other games the way they do in Brawl, so you can't just look at matchups the way you can for other games.

Comparisons to Melee are slightly more valid, except that there is no one character in Melee that MK is like. He's more of a combination of the best three.

 

[Backward]

That is not acceptable.

As said many times before, Brawl is not a traditional fighting game, nor anywhere close to it. It's also a sorry excuse for a fighting game on base level. The reason why it's a competitive fighting game as it is right now is because we, the community, said so.

Following other fighting games, even Melee, will not work here.

Why won't it work? If we're trying to remove all traces of non-competition from this game, surely we should be following examples of competitive games. Most notably Melee.

If it's not even competitive no matter how much we try to make it, then why should we not just play it the way it is now?

@SalaboB: That's true. I'm mostly arguing on the grounds of how good Metaknight is at winning overall, instead of specific matchups.

 

[petrie911]

ouch........

hmm...probably should have put that in quotes. That wasn't meant as a slight at you...

 

[Dark Hart]

@ Panda: Just for the record, I accidentally voted 'yes', but I meant to vote 'no'.



Damn I feel bad. I just let MK down with my stupid accident.

 

[Ulevo]

is ulevo still talking? oh well, and he didn't jsut tell me peach's best KO options are all vertical.....and her double jump is trash, more proof he doesn't know what he's talking about. cuz you know, every peach player COMPLETELY relies on their completely situation upsmash for every single KO. you know, and theres not OTHER reasons why jungle japes is an excellent stage for peach, one of the best horizontal recoveries int eh game, turnip camping platforms, being able to even float UNDER the main platform and uair thru it, with the clap trap timed at every 10 seconds its not hard to do. learn your facts before you start stating stages that are bad for characters you know nothing about.

I never stated her KO options were completely vertical. You're taking my words out of context. You can't win debates that way.

She has USmash, UTilt, and Uair, all of which KO. Her double jump is an amazing spacing tool, but it's recovery is bad. She also can't cling to ledges from behind her while she is in her parasol. If she falls in the water, she has a very difficult time getting out compared to most other characters. It doesn't matter if her horizontal recovery is good. That might be good on a big stage life final. That means nothing when the side walls are closed in. And why the hell would you go under the stage with Peach when she can't get out safely? Your opponent is just going to jump on the platform above or edge guard you. The points you make are terrible.

 

[gantrain05]

i see where your coming from tho, here's a MK strategy i see alot at tournies, first round, pick MK, usually end up with the win, second round your opponent CP a stage, if you don't like the stage, you stay with MK, if you lose oh well, because then you CP any stage you want, you opponent picks character, and you have the option to stay MK, but if they pick Snake or someone who may do "decent" against MK you can easily pick a counter to them instead of playing MK, if they pick snake, you can just play pikachu, and so on, so basically you don't need to main MK to win, you just need to play him first round to get that crucial win in the matchup.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Really? Oh. So Marths Fair doesn't go through Meta Knights? Marths DTilt doesn't beat Meta Knights? Marths Jab doesn't clank with his Glide Attack? ****, and here I thought I had it all figured out. You must be real smart and know something I don't.

You're wrong on both accounts.
MK's Dtilt is longer than marth's Dtilt. it extends past the graphics as does his Fair. It is small but when it comes to safe moves, mk does outrange him.
This was researched.

Again, it's called spacing. Learn how to do it. There's also something called the Shield.

Good luck with a move thats 15 frames and has incredible range and can shield poke.
So shield isn't so useful unless its a powershield.
Again MK can space as well so your argument isn't holding up as strong as it used to be.
your list doesn't mean a **** thing since the majority of thet ime, MK doesn't allow such a situation to occur.

Now now, I never once called you a noob. Noobs are associated with the word newbie, which means inexperienced. I called you stupid.

Newbs=inexperienced
noobs=inexperienced and ignorant.

Peaches double jump is terrible, and one of her best methods of KO's is completely vertical. Jungle Japes ruins her on both those aspects of her game. And you're telling me is a good stage for her? I'm not a Peach main, and I very well could be wrong here, but I sincerely doubt it.

If you aren't a peach main and he actually gave you the reasons on why its a good stage. Maybe you should not post on the issue yes?

Fox has no where near the range King Dedede has. King Dedede isn't all of a sudden at a disadvantage if he can't CG you. His range and weight are ridiculous. Plus he can gimp Fox very easily due to how one dimensional his recovery methods are. I'm not arguing Fox can't win, it isn't a **** match up. But Fox does not go even.

DDD is very easily comboed and the high range to most of DDD's moves aren't really quick. They stay out quite a bit.
You're ignoring the fact that Fox's ability to punish DDD very hard offsets DDD's heavy weight.
He can gimp Fox.

I personally believe Link to be a decent character. He can't compete with G&W. His recovery is absolutely horrid.

Thank you for absolutely ignoring what was posted on Link int he above posts.
Really.

And you're trying to talk to me about spacing? Last time I checked, G&W had the best Bair in the game. If you could please mention to me how Link gets around this at close quarters, I'd love to be enlightened. We're debating facts, remember?

Zair=2nd longest ranged aerial.
Second to Samus.
He has the ability to keep G&W spaced away from him, something that a good amount of the cast has an issue with because they don't have that awesome Zair that Link has.

Go ahead and use your Bair. I can just Zair you away. You won't use a Bair from above cause then I can just uair you.

It's rather disappointing when you're crutch for an argument on why I am wrong here is to point out that others are arguing with me aside from you. All of Smashboards could disagree with me, it doesn't make me any less wrong or right on the matter. Until you actually provide factual statements to put me in my place, I have no reason to believe that you or anyone else here actually knows what it is they're talking about.

Peach argument was not factual?
MK having no lag was not factual?
It seems like you're just skimming his posts.

And you, my friend, sincerely do not know what you're talking about.

Cause

he was totally wrong about jungle japes.

She has USmash, UTilt, and Uair, all of which KO.

Thats insinuating vertical killing ability dude.
How did you manage to trip like that?

Her double jump is an amazing spacing tool, but it's recovery is bad.

...

She also can't cling to ledges from behind her while she is in her parasol.

As soon as she closes it I believe she can grab the ledge.

If she falls in the water, she has a very difficult time getting out compared to most other characters. It doesn't matter if her horizontal recovery is good. That might be good on a big stage life final. That means nothing when the side walls are closed in.

You do know that the fact she can float all the way back to the main platform after being carried away by the water helps her right? And that there isn't much of a vertical drop right?

And why the hell would you go under the stage with Peach when she can't get out safely? Your opponent is just going to jump on the platform above or edge guard you. The points you make are terrible.

You are not reading it entirely
uair goes through the bottom of the stage so she is perfectly fine under the stage. She is safe, the opponent cannot hit her but she can hit them.