Should Metaknight be Banned? **Take 2** (Post-podcast)

[Trifroze]

No bad matchups, no bad stages, mostly lagless attacks, one of the best (if not the best) recoveries in the game, downsmash is broken as hell, decent KOing power and amazing gimping abilities... basically there's just nothing bad about him

I'm still neutral in this debate, though. I've never experienced the dominance first-hand because I live in Europe and nobody seems to play MK here... o_O

Most characters can easily kill him at like 80%.

 

[Ulevo]

except in the end, after all that work you put into training against meta knight, and you go to that one big tournament and you get so close, and then lose to MK, and he wins all the prize money, like he does at every tournament. because its basically a guessing game if you are going to beat metaknight, is he going to make enough stupid mistakes for me to punish him and win? if he doesn't you arent going to win.

If Melee Fox didn't make any stupid mistakes, you lost too. Guess what? Meta Knight isn't winning every tournament. Cut the exaggerations.

its too bad you can't make it so you have to listen to the podcast first in order to vote, that'd cleanse the poll.

Why? The debate isn't that constructive to begin with.

"What has longer reach? FTilt or FSmash?"

"Meta Knight has a FTilt to DTilt trap."

It's common knowledge to most people FTilt out ranges FSmash. And FTilt to DTilt is NOT a trap. It couldn't even work in theory past maybe 20%. This is ridiculous.

If the SBR Members cannot even form a constructive pro ban or anti ban argument, why the hell are we even discussing the ban? If Meta Knight needed to be banned, if the decision was that clear cut, we would have done so already. Despite me disliking the Akuma reference, Akuma was banned because his broken traits were blatantly obvious, and he was removed from Street Fighter's competitive scene almost immediately.

Meta Knight however has not. He's stayed for this long, even with the constant complaints. Sheik presented the same problem in Melee. It doesn't matter if "we won't discover any new techniques to help cope with the match up" (even though that argument is total garbage), that isn't the point. The melee community needed to cope with Sheik over time, and Meta Knight should as well.

I still say ban him. For these short and simple reasons:
-Not only does he not have disadvantages in matchups, but doesn't even have any legal disadvantaged stages. Being that this is game about punishing screwups and abusing disadvantages, that takes away 1/2 the way to beat a MK.

No it doesn't. Meta Knight has specific problems as a character that a player needs to address during battle through methods of his own character, regardless of who they play. If you cannot accept that as a player, you are a poor player. Also, Meta Knight does have disadvantaged match ups, such as Snake. Furthermore, even if Meta Knight performs well on almost every stage, there are still certain stages that Meta Knight can't perform as well on, such as Yoshi's Island, and stages that benefit the character of your choosing. It isn't just about depleting the options of Meta Knight, it's about increasing your own options and advantages too.

-That being said. No matter how good you are, a MK at your level (once you reach tourney level) will always beat you. Simply because, if it comes down to skill on skill, MK is just better. You work just as hard to take to rewards. (It would be different to those who main lower-tier for the challenge, they know what they're up against going to tourneys.)

How is that different from any other Top Tier character or a character higher on the Tier List than the character you decide to play? Every fighting game in existence has one character or a group of characters better than everyone else. And if you play those characters, you will win against everyone equal to or lower of your skill level almost every time. This isn't Meta Knight specific, nor it is an excuse for a ban.

- And for my own biased reason, 5/6 past tourneys I've lost to a MK. I'd simply be better if MK was banned. I'd place higher.

We don't care about your unbiased reasons.

I fight Meta Knight better than most match ups because of how extensively I've learned the character. I can't fight Peach worth my life. I've been knocked into Losers Brackets two tournaments in a row by the same Peach player, and almost lost in pools last tournament to another Peach player. If Peach were banned, I could have placed higher too. You don't see me making such arguments.

And no offense to those who do, but I've yet to see an actual MK main be able to beat me with any other character. Just a point.

My Marth is better than my Meta Knight. I am not the only player who also has a main they play better than they can play Meta Knight.

My opinion has not changed from the podcast.

I still feel that Metaknight is "THE" counterpick as in... if I choose a particular stage that would benefit against most characters, it doesn't benefit against metaknight. I use metaknight as a counterpick when my main (lucas) fails for the sole reason that, he has no bad matchups so what reason isn't there for me to choose him? and anyone else? everyone should choose him, he has no disadvantage. So we need him OUT.

Can you name a stage that G&W does poorly on?

You go to claim that Meta Knight has no bad stage without even bothering to mention that other characters have stages they perform well on against Meta Knight. And are you telling me you're going to pick Meta Knight against every character? Even against Donkey Kong? Even against Wario? Even against Fox? Even against Snake? You don't know how to Counter Pick intelligently then. You're just going for, what you assume to be, the win button. When in reality, you're putting yourself in a worse position.

No bad matchups,

Hm... Snake?

no bad stages,

I've already refuted this above twice now.

mostly lagless attacks,

There is a very LARGE difference between "lagless" and "un-punishable".

one of the best (if not the best) recoveries in the game,

Hands down, I concur.

downsmash is broken as hell

No it's not. It's a very good move, but it is punishable. I could say that about a plethora of moves from a plethora of characters.

decent KOing power and amazing gimping abilities... basically there's just nothing bad about him

His gimping ability is good compared to the rest of the cast. That doesn't mean Meta Knight should or will be gimping an expert player the majority of the time. DI prevents this on almost all occasions.

I've made a thread about what is "bad" about him. I've provided reasons above.

I'm still neutral in this debate, though. I've never experienced the dominance first-hand because I live in Europe and nobody seems to play MK here... o_O

This is the whole problem first hand. People make conclusions based on their own personal experiences with Meta Knight. All of a sudden, when a player losers to (GASP) a good Meta Knight player, they take credit away from the player immediately and come to the conclusion that he is broken. Like wise, the reverse can hold true as well. It is problematic on both parties.

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

Everyone on this site is ********

says the person who can't spell through

Implying that the character requires no skill to play has nothing to do with getting a character banned. Your first two points have merit, but you have no point whatsoever if you're reasons are going to be based off of personal bias. That's why "bias" has a negative connotation in the first place.

Implying a character takes no skill to play means that a million people can pick him up.
Need I refer to Azure and the upset in Ann Arbor not too long ago? He beat Alpha Zealot. A 14 year old kid who was attending his second tourney beat Alpha Zealot, a smash veteran. Doesn't that get through to anyone?

And by no means am I saying a good MK player doesn't have any skill. I'm just saying it doesn't take skill to make MK tourney-ready.

No it doesn't. Meta Knight has specific problems as a character that a player needs to address during battle through methods of his own character, regardless of who they play. If you cannot accept that as a player, you are a poor player. Also, Meta Knight does have disadvantaged match ups, such as Snake. Furthermore, even if Meta Knight performs well on almost every stage, there are still certain stages that Meta Knight can't perform as well on, such as Yoshi's Island, and stages that benefit the character of your choosing. It isn't just about depleting the options of Meta Knight, it's about increasing your own options and advantages too.

oh no! not that he's too light right? Oh wait, a million jumps and two glides.
Lack of range? Oh wait...dtilt > marth's f-fricken-smash.

Of course every character has some disadvantage or another, nintendo's not that stupid. But MK's aren't punishable or even practical to punish. And comparing the best character in the game to the 2nd is hardly making the character fair.

MK isn't even bad at YI. Just because he can't glide under the stage doesn't put the stage at his disadvantage. And at the rate current lists being produced by some SBR members (Umbreon) the stage list is going to become completely MK-favorable.

How is that different from any other Top Tier character or a character higher on the Tier List than the character you decide to play? Every fighting game in existence has one character or a group of characters better than everyone else. And if you play those characters, you will win against everyone equal to or lower of your skill level almost every time. This isn't Meta Knight specific, nor it is an excuse for a ban.

Because MK is that much better then the other characters. Not just a difference between g&w and DDD, which is highly debateable, but the difference between 1 and 2+. Even between 1 and 2 is ridiculous.

We don't care about your unbiased reasons.

Again, biased with reason. I'm saying that MK's dominate, and it effects my placings, as it does everyone who attends tourneys.

I fight Meta Knight better than most match ups because of how extensively I've learned the character. I can't fight Peach worth my life. I've been knocked into Losers Brackets two tournaments in a row by the same Peach player, and almost lost in pools last tournament to another Peach player. If Peach were banned, I could have placed higher too. You don't see me making such arguments.

MK has plenty of ways to play. And just because you know them, doesn't mean they know you. Maybe you're a good player who can interpret the player himself, and not just the character. Maybe the other person doesn't have that ability.

My Marth is better than my Meta Knight. I am not the only player who also has a main they play better than they can play Meta Knight.

Plenty of people have that. I'm saying someone who truly uses MK in tourneys doesn't usually have another character they could even come close to competing with.

This is the whole problem first hand. People make conclusions based on their own personal experiences with Meta Knight. All of a sudden, when a player losers to (GASP) a good Meta Knight player, they take credit away from the player immediately and come to the conclusion that he is broken. Like wise, the reverse can hold true as well. It is problematic on both parties.

Thats not entirely true. Its when players lose to MKs continously, over and over and over, that I begin to question whether or not MK should still be a part of this game.

 

[Nic64]

Everyone.

Listen to Edrees. Because he's right.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=5360

...

My basis for banning Metaknight is the same basis I use to ban items – they are stupid

lmfao out of context quoting ftw <_<

 

[ShadowLink84]

Everyone on this site is ********, you let scrubs vote, of course meta will be ban by here but scrubs dont matter. Meta is broken but not bannable get it threw your head

MK isn't broken.
-_-;

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Items aren't banned. Their spawn rate is just set to "None" with every individual item set to "off". If items enter the match through other means (such as Peach's down special), they are allowed to be used. Calling items "banned" is wholly illogical, and it's the same thing as saying that time mode is banned. Why don't people get that?

 

[Zankoku]

Items aren't banned. Their spawn rate is just set to "None" with every individual item set to "off". If items enter the match through other means (such as Peach's down special), they are allowed to be used. Calling items "banned" is wholly illogical, and it's the same thing as saying that time mode is banned. Why don't people get that?

Because everyone already knows what it means.

 

[ThaRoy]

I believe that banning MK will NOT hurt the game in any situation. However, since we're not removing him, it can only be for an amounted time. For this reason I am for banning Meta Knight. I believe he is hindering the meta game and, at this time, he is of ban merit

 

[HeroMystic]

Items aren't banned. Their spawn rate is just set to "None" with every individual item set to "off". If items enter the match through other means (such as Peach's down special), they are allowed to be used. Calling items "banned" is wholly illogical, and it's the same thing as saying that time mode is banned. Why don't people get that?

Because your attempts to be technical and jump through loopholes is so flawless.

 

[1048576]

If Melee Fox made a mistake, he lost the stock. A "mistake" for Melee Fox meant acting on Frame 5 instead of Frame 4. You can't punish Meta in like fashion, and it's much easier to avoid mistakes with him.

Obviously the decision isn't clear cut, but I don't understand why that makes for a good anti-ban argument.

Melee had four characters dominating the tournament scene. Brawl has one. I know this is scrubby, but I need a competitive scene with more than one character to hold my interest. I am bored with this METAgame and I'll enter tourneys again when he is banned. We don't need to cope with anything. If we wanted to ban ftilts, we could. It's just a matter of whether or not such an action would foster community growth and competitive fairness.

Metaknight does not have disadvantaged matchups. His matchups have been discussed thuroughly and the general consensus is that Snake and MK are the best matchups against MK, and they are both 50-50. MK also has no bad stages. His primary weaknesses, poor aerial mobility and light weight are unexploitable due to his massive range and near lagless attacks. There is no reasonable character or stage you can pick to hope to beat a Metaknight on your skill level. The MK player can ban your best stage. Even if your 2nd best stage gives you a 60-40 against MK (try coming up with an example for that), MK can just pick your 2nd worst stage and return the favor with at least a 70-30.

Obviously if you are more skilled, you can beat MK. It seems like in every situation, MK has three times the options that his opponent does.

Also, I don't see what's wrong with banning him and then bringing him back when an anti-MK technique is discovered. The former MK mains will have as much skill left with MK as the people playing against him, so his metagame will regrow on an even playing field. Furthermore, we can finally start to develop other characters. You can't deny that this game has been MK-centric for some time and many characters' matchups are completely unexplored. I think the metagame is more stagnant now than it would be if we banned MK. I think more people are quitting now than would be if MK were banned.

 

[Ulevo]

Implying a character takes no skill to play means that a million people can pick him up.
Need I refer to Azure and the upset in Ann Arbor not too long ago? He beat Alpha Zealot. A 14 year old kid who was attending his second tourney beat Alpha Zealot, a smash veteran. Doesn't that get through to anyone?

JigglesThePuff, a member of the GTA PR, literally came out of no where, and beat the best players of GTA and Niagara to get 3rd place at a major tournament. No one had ever heard of him as far as I knew, at least from the players he beat were concerned. He mains Jigglypuff.

It's called an upset. THEY HAPPEN.

And by no means am I saying a good MK player doesn't have any skill. I'm just saying it doesn't take skill to make MK tourney-ready.

What is your point? We're voting for the ban of Meta Knight because of the fact that he might be too game breaking to be healthy for the tournament scene. We're not voting to ban him because he's extremely easy. Christ. Why don't we just move Ice Climbers to Low Tier because of how difficult they are to play in comparison. Make relevant points or don't post.

oh no! not that he's too light right? Oh wait, a million jumps and two glides.
Lack of range? Oh wait...dtilt > marth's f-fricken-smash.

Meta Knight's Shield Stun is terrible, thus he is easily punished from commitment moves such as Fair, Bair, Glide Attack, Dair, and other such moves with lag. Meta Knight IS light. Meta Knight has range that loses to other characters with more than enough speed on start up time and cool down time to compensate with him. His aerial mobility is terrible and he has no projectile of his own. I made a thread about this. Please don't make ignorant posts.

And by the way, just to correct you, Marths FSmash is longer.

Of course every character has some disadvantage or another, nintendo's not that stupid. But MK's aren't punishable or even practical to punish.

Yes they are. You just can't use your brain to figure out how to punish. If you want me to be "practical" about it, I can sit here all day and throw out Frame rates and distancing differences between attacks, and show you just how probable it is.

And comparing the best character in the game to the 2nd is hardly making the character fair.

This game isn't fair. Everyone with a brain on this site can establish that. Ask any Fox main and they'll tell you they can't stand Pikachu, and that it isn't fair. We're not debating on whether or not to ban Meta Knight because it's fair. He's the best character (arguably) in the game. Using him over someone else will always be unfair to anyone who refrains from making that decision unless they have a match up advantage. That's how fighting games (most of them) work. This point is irrelevant, again.

MK isn't even bad at YI. Just because he can't glide under the stage doesn't put the stage at his disadvantage. And at the rate current lists being produced by some SBR members (Umbreon) the stage list is going to become completely MK-favorable.

According to who? You? Just because Meta Knight doesn't do bad on Yoshi Island, or any stage, doesn't mean we should ban him, nor is it a reason to add on to the list to ban him.

Because MK is that much better then the other characters. Not just a difference between g&w and DDD, which is highly debateable, but the difference between 1 and 2+. Even between 1 and 2 is ridiculous.

He isn't that much better than other characters. He simply isn't. It is not uncommon for two high level players to have a set where the player not using Meta Knight comes out on top. The player makes Meta Knight, Meta Knight does not make the player. I don't care how good you believe he is, or how easy he is to use.

Again, biased with reason. I'm saying that MK's dominate, and it effects my placings, as it does everyone who attends tourneys.

Any characters dominance is going to effect your tournament placing. If Meta Knight were banned tomorrow, and Snake rose to the top, he would effect your placing. What kind of argument is that? Sheesh. Biased with reason is still biased. Nice try though.

By the way. If you're skilled enough to win, you will. If you're not, you won't. I don't care if you play Captain Falcon or Meta Knight. Don't make character johns on your own personal reasons to support a character ban.

Plenty of people have that. I'm saying someone who truly uses MK in tourneys doesn't usually have another character they could even come close to competing with.

I can't explain how stupid this is.

Anyone who uses a character other than their main normally can't compete and win in a tournament if their name isn't Azen. I couldn't pick up Mario and start placing anywhere near what I do with my main. Even if I tried that with a highly placed character such as R.O.B., who I'm very unfamiliar with, I still couldn't. You're assuming that Meta Knight does the work for the player, and thus the player at hand has no ability themselves to compete with another character if they trained themselves to use said character.

Thats not entirely true. Its when players lose to MKs continously, over and over and over, that I begin to question whether or not MK should still be a part of this game.

Meta Knight is currently the most dominant character in the game. Guess what? People are going to lose to Meta Knight. That's what indicates that he's dominant. We don't go out and ban characters because they're dominant. We ban characters if they're broken. This is a completely generalized statement. The community hasn't devolved to a state where everyone needs to use Meta Knight to win. It simply has it. You're not even taking in to consideration all the players that use Meta Knight a lose to other characters. Or skill level. Or anything else.

 

[cutter]

This is how I feel what has happened to the metagame right now... allow me to use a nice MTG analogy

Metaknight = Affinity
Snake = Tooth and Nail
All the other characters = Some can beat Snake, but they all fold to Meta

Metaknight is just like Affinity back in the dark days of Magic; undeniably the best in the game and it completely chokes off the metagame by forcing you to either play him or be very disadvantaged.

What's the fun in playing a game where one force is so dominant that he overcentralizes the metagame at critical mass?

I am voting to ban Meta Knight because like Affinity, he turns the metagame into a gigantic black hole. There is no incentive whatsoever to play another character instead of MK because he cannot be counterpicked. There is no universal counter to MK. This growing domino effect forces more people to play MK to be able to compete, which is completely unhealthy for this game.

 

[Nic64]

There is no incentive whatsoever to play another character

and yet tons of people continue to do so, you are mistaken.

 

[cutter]

and yet tons of people continue to do so, you are mistaken.

But why do they pick that character? Is it because they just enjoy playing that character the most?

If you want to win a tournament, that's not logical thinking to pick a character just because you like him/her. Remember, we play to win.

 

[ShadowLink84]

But why do they pick that character? Is it because they just enjoy playing that character the most?

If you want to win a tournament, that's not logical thinking to pick a character just because you like him/her. Remember, we play to win.

Just to poke at something. I really do think its kind of contradictory in a way.
We state play to win but allow such a diverse amount of characters and stages.
if we truly aimed for play to win, would we not simply all just play one character on one stage?
Then it would be based purely on skill and not inherent advantages/disadvantages.

*shrug*
Just a thought.

 

[Steel]

and yet tons of people continue to do so, you are mistaken.

If you went to a tournament determined to win.. why would you NOT use meta knight? There's no reason not to.

 

[kr3wman]

MK isn't broken.
-_-;

MK isn´t broken, yes.

He´s just retardedly good in a broken game.

 

[ShadowLink84]

MK isn´t broken, yes.

He´s just retardedly good in a broken game.

Well he's good. Its just that he isn't affeected by the game as much as the otehrs.
I means eriously, one of thef ew characters to go on the offensive in a defense oriented game.

Meta Knight's Shield Stun is terrible, thus he is easily punished from commitment moves such as Fair, Bair, Glide Attack, Dair, and other such moves with lag.

Alot of moves have terrible shieldstun.
The only moves that really evoke large shieldstun are the more powerful ones like DK's giant punch.

Moves like Diddy and Kirby's dash attack can't be shield grabbed despite having poor shield stun because they hit so many times so quickly.
The shieldstun in this game is very poor and not many moves can evoke it.

The only time his aerials lag is if he lands on the ground with them. (around 15 frames of lag). Also considering the range of them it isn't easy to punish MK as you make it sound.

let alone he has range to make up for being committed.
Look at Fox, he commits and he gets punished.
When Mk commits he can avoid punishment more easily.

 

[Nic64]

If you went to a tournament determined to win.. why would you NOT use meta knight? There's no reason not to.

for one I barely ever play him. randomly picking him up does not give me my best chance to win, he's not *that* broken. then you have to account for what kind of player you are, some people will naturally do better with different kinds of characters. doesn't fit the anecdote because I do pretty well with MK, but I'd still be more comfortable playing my mains if I were in a must win situation right now.

 

[Steel]

for one I barely ever play him. randomly picking him up does not give me my best chance to win, he's not *that* broken. then you have to account for what kind of player you are, some people will naturally do better with different kinds of characters. doesn't fit the anecdote because I do pretty well with MK, but I'd still be more comfortable playing my mains if I were in a must win situation right now.

I'm more comfortable with my main as well. But I know that I would have a much better chance at winning tourneys if I trained my meta knight for 2 weeks or so.

If money and winning is all the player cared about they would use Meta Knight. Why not use the one with basically no weaknesses?

 

[Espy Rose]

At this point, I couldn't care about either side's technical and logical arguments.

I've been to a few non-MK tournaments (small ones albeit), and from what I've experienced, it's simply this:

Tournaments are just so much more fun without him.

Under my own personal viewpoint, I vote Yes.

 

[Nic64]

If money and winning is all the player cared about they would use Meta Knight. Why not use the one with basically no weaknesses?

because that is totally logical, people are not logical. picking MK is advantageous compared to the rest of the cast, but this will be true of someone in almost all fighting games, I think the question is whether or not he invalidates all other characters. on this issue I am undecided, I really don't feel as if all characters are that disadvantaged by him, but, as you stated, picking anyone else means you will have to go through characters that counter your main while a MK will not. I am leaning towards pro ban at this point but I'd still disagree with the notion that everyone will switch to MK because they have to in order to win, for whatever reason, people have stuck with their characters, as flawed as they may be. even lower tier characters have many people that main them in spite of the massive disadvantage they sometimes suffer.

 

[AlAxe]

people who play for fun will stick with their lower tier mains. People who play purely to win at the highest levels of the game will all switch to MK or just not win at the highest levels.

 

[Justblaze647]

^PT up!^

10

 

[Nicole]

a recent tournament i just attended shed some light on this subject for me. my friend and doubles partner plays olimar, and his opponent was playing snake. olimar won, no problem. his opponent then switched to MK and won two in a row. his opponent thinks MK should be banned. the idea of smash is to test one's skill. my friend had the skill to beat his opponent, but couldn't, because MK is broken.
choosing MK is basically an instant win, if you have some practice and some idea how to play with him. it doesn't make for good competition. i used to be anti-ban, but i really think the game, the community, and tournaments could do without him.

 

[Hype]

I'm really glad this was made, I'm sure there is a lot of people who would like to change their vote since the podcast.

 

[Face124]

is the SBR actually going to consider banning MK? or is this just a whole load of speculation? maybe someone post this over at AIB and see what they think.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

is the SBR actually going to consider banning MK? or is this just a whole load of speculation? maybe someone post this over at AIB and see what they think.

LOL. I live in New York and therefore have not played a high-level Meta-Knight, so I won't vote.

 

[gantrain05]

If Melee Fox didn't make any stupid mistakes, you lost too. Guess what? Meta Knight isn't winning every tournament. Cut the exaggerations.

fox had counters......


Why? The debate isn't that constructive to begin with.

yes it is, there are alot of people who don't know alot about the rest of the tourney scene, or maybe they want to get into it, but this whole MK thing is steering them away from it.

"What has longer reach? FTilt or FSmash?"

"Meta Knight has a FTilt to DTilt trap."

It's common knowledge to most people FTilt out ranges FSmash. And FTilt to DTilt is NOT a trap. It couldn't even work in theory past maybe 20%. This is ridiculous.

If the SBR Members cannot even form a constructive pro ban or anti ban argument, why the hell are we even discussing the ban? If Meta Knight needed to be banned, if the decision was that clear cut, we would have done so already. Despite me disliking the Akuma reference, Akuma was banned because his broken traits were blatantly obvious, and he was removed from Street Fighter's competitive scene almost immediately.

except it was just blatantly obvious for akuma because he was an exact clone of ken/ryu except 1000x better/stronger/faster because thats how the game played, it wasn't nearly as deep as smash, and its a completely different type of fighter, MK still has no bad matchups or stage counterpicks.

Meta Knight however has not. He's stayed for this long, even with the constant complaints. Sheik presented the same problem in Melee. It doesn't matter if "we won't discover any new techniques to help cope with the match up" (even though that argument is total garbage), that isn't the point. The melee community needed to cope with Sheik over time, and Meta Knight should as well.

well in melee we DID discover other techniques and look, shiek isn't godtier anymore, niether is marth, did you even follow the competetive melee scene?




No it doesn't. Meta Knight has specific problems as a character that a player needs to address during battle through methods of his own character, regardless of who they play. If you cannot accept that as a player, you are a poor player. Also, Meta Knight does have disadvantaged match ups, such as Snake. Furthermore, even if Meta Knight performs well on almost every stage, there are still certain stages that Meta Knight can't perform as well on, such as Yoshi's Island, and stages that benefit the character of your choosing. It isn't just about depleting the options of Meta Knight, it's about increasing your own options and advantages too.

MK does very well on yoshi's island, ESPECIALLY melee version, snake is not a clear cut counter, he MIGHT go even with him, get that through your head. and benefitting your own character still means **** if MK is just as good at that stage, lets take a look at some examples eh. say your a peach main like me, you counterpick jungle japes or luigis mansion, easily her two best levels and can just destroy other characters there, well guess what, MK actually does just as well as peach on jungle japes, and even better on luigis mansion, or olimar, corneria is a very good level for him, he can sit on the bottom and camp unitl the opponent is forced to approach, but in MK's case he can simply approach by dropping and then tornado, and now olimar is in alot of trouble, he's in a tight space on the defense against MK who can hit you with a shutle loop from just about anywhere down there.


How is that different from any other Top Tier character or a character higher on the Tier List than the character you decide to play? Every fighting game in existence has one character or a group of characters better than everyone else. And if you play those characters, you will win against everyone equal to or lower of your skill level almost every time. This isn't Meta Knight specific, nor it is an excuse for a ban.

other top tier characters have counters, even in bottom tier.......MK doesn't DDD will get his arse ***** by olimar, or fox, or peach, G&W can be easily beaten by toon link or even link, falco doesn't do very well against alot of the cast, especially post-chaingrab percents.

We don't care about your unbiased reasons.

I fight Meta Knight better than most match ups because of how extensively I've learned the character. I can't fight Peach worth my life. I've been knocked into Losers Brackets two tournaments in a row by the same Peach player, and almost lost in pools last tournament to another Peach player. If Peach were banned, I could have placed higher too. You don't see me making such arguments.

seems like a personal problem.


My Marth is better than my Meta Knight. I am not the only player who also has a main they play better than they can play Meta Knight.

no he's not, you just haven't realized that your better with MK yet, or refuse to accept it, everybody is better with MK than anyone else lol.




Can you name a stage that G&W does poorly on?

he doesn't do so hot on pokemon stadium, especially combined with a character who can actually counter him, oh em gee, imagine that G&W isnt unbeatable.

You go to claim that Meta Knight has no bad stage without even bothering to mention that other characters have stages they perform well on against Meta Knight. And are you telling me you're going to pick Meta Knight against every character? Even against Donkey Kong? Even against Wario? Even against Fox? Even against Snake? You don't know how to Counter Pick intelligently then. You're just going for, what you assume to be, the win button. When in reality, you're putting yourself in a worse position.

we already went over this.....and MK ***** fox wtf are you talking about.

Hm... Snake?



I've already refuted this above twice now.



There is a very LARGE difference between "lagless" and "un-punishable".
yup your right MK has both lagless AND unpunishable attacks.


Hands down, I concur.



No it's not. It's a very good move, but it is punishable. I could say that about a plethora of moves from a plethora of characters.



His gimping ability is good compared to the rest of the cast. That doesn't mean Meta Knight should or will be gimping an expert player the majority of the time. DI prevents this on almost all occasions.

yup cuz DI is gonna save you from a Dsmash that will send you at a very low angle no matter how much of a God of DI you are, especially if your a character like mario, or ness, or bowser, or shiek, or olimar, or fox, or falco, or wolf, or just about 90% of the cast.

I've made a thread about what is "bad" about him. I've provided reasons above.



This is the whole problem first hand. People make conclusions based on their own personal experiences with Meta Knight. All of a sudden, when a player losers to (GASP) a good Meta Knight player, they take credit away from the player immediately and come to the conclusion that he is broken. Like wise, the reverse can hold true as well. It is problematic on both parties.

maybe because it happens all over the country, and its not just everyones personal experiences its actually fact that meta wins more tourneys than like the next 5 characters under him combined.

 

[Ulevo]

If you went to a tournament determined to win.. why would you NOT use meta knight? There's no reason not to.

Steel, I've seen Meta Knight mains, good ones, switch out to another character for an advantage on a match up. I had to switch to Falco in the last tournament against a Peach main to win. Hell, a few days ago, I watched Overswarm of all people on a youtube video switch out from Meta Knight back to R.O.B. after losing to a Snake in a tournament match.

The bottom line is he is not the best choice in every circumstance. He's just a very good one.

 

[DMG]

The bottom line is he is not the best choice in every circumstance. He's just a very good one.

Correct, he's not always the best choice individually (Pika vs Fox, Dedede vs Wario, those are better counter picks, etc), but as a whole there's no other character that is always a good pick for individual matchups.

 

[petrie911]

Steel, I've seen Meta Knight mains, good ones, switch out to another character for an advantage on a match up. I had to switch to Falco in the last tournament against a Peach main to win. Hell, a few days ago, I watched Overswarm of all people on a youtube video switch out from Meta Knight back to R.O.B. after losing to a Snake in a tournament match.

The bottom line is he is not the best choice in every circumstance. He's just a very good one.

The problem is that he is always a good choice. Say you're going into your first match of the set. It's double blind picks, so you go with the character least likely to get screwed over: MK. Now, you win in the first set. Your opponent picks the stage, and it's your pick. If you pick any character that's not MK, your opponent will simply CP your pick and put you at a disadvantage, so you pick MK. If you lost your first match, your opponent will go through the same thought process and arrive at picking MK. So now you have to pick a character. Admittedly, you could use Snake for his even matchup with MK, but that would depend on the stage you CP'd. And since you've already practiced with him, you may as well just use MK for his even matchup with MK. Thus, the optimal strategy is to only use MK, and no strategy offers an advantage over this strategy, as MK has no disadvantageous matchups. The only thing that could help is to learn a character like Dedede to give you a large advantage when your opponent is foolish enough to pick a character that isn't MK when it's your CP, but that would be suboptimal play, anyways.

 

[Sudai]

89-63

Wutwut?

 

[Ulevo]

Stuff.

I'm answering these in order of quote, since you made it difficult.

1) Fox did not have counters. Marth could CG to death Fox on Final Destination. Marth was not considered a counter. No character was. You have no clue what you're talking about.

2) It doesn't matter if people are being steered away by Meta Knight. By broadcasting false information and poor arguments, it gives everyone the wrong idea on the topic. I have nothing personal against any of the four individuals in the debate, but they really were not the best people for idea.

3) What a cop out. Just because a character is superior to another in similar fashion does not indicate that they are broken, nor is it a good way to measure if they are broken on the majority in comparison with everyone else. I'm going to ignore this as I simply do not like delving in to realms of different fighters for debates, and you totally missed the point.

4) It wasn't special advanced techniques that brought Sheik down to High Tier, it was the practice of simple basics and essentials along with match up experience. If you do not know how to fight Sheik, you will lose. Meta Knight is no different. I always here this crap from Overswarm. "We're not going to develop any new advanced techniques in order to deal with Meta Knight. Brawl is shallow. We're not a community that doesn't DI probably like we were back in Melee." Right. We're not DIing poorly huh? A month ago or so ago, barely anyone knew how to properly recover. That is a BASIC, and ESSENTIAL to playing Smash. And you're telling me you want to ban the best character when the vast majority of the community can't even get the simplest of Smash basics down? You're out to lunch.

5) Snake doesn't need to be a clear cut counter. He has an advantage, regardless of how large or minimal. I do not need to get your biased opinion through my head.

Based on what I know of Peach, you're a terrible player if you think Jungle Japes or Luigis Mansion are of any benefit to her. I'd actually argue they're terrible for her. Your example holds no ground here. As for your Olimar example, he's able to pivot grab Meta Knight out of his Tornado rather easily, or use his Pikmin Chain. Learn about what it is you're talking about before trying to convey your opinion as truth by quoting me.

In either case, you picked the worst possible examples for each character. Why you would fight their with those characters is beyond me. You must enjoy losing. And again, Meta Knight does alright on Yoshis Island (Melee version was not in my post, so I'm ignoring that), but it isn't his best stage either. There are other characters who simply do better on that stage.

6) Let me get this straight. You think that Fox ***** King Dedede, that Link beats G&W, and that Falco does poor against most of the cast? If I were a disrespectful prick, I'd stop quoting you here for you're stupidity, but I'll continue.

7) Of course it's a personal problem. That is why I was pointing it out. You shouldn't make such claims to support an argument. Pay attention.

8) It's called character style. Each character is unique, and plays differently. You're making a general assumption, and looking stupid for it.

9) I wasn't stating G&W was unbeatable you moron. And please elaborate as to how G&W does poorly on a Pokemon Stadium. Do not involve other characters during your example either, as we are talking about Stage Picks, not Counter Picks.

10) Yeah, we did go over this. You still didn't refute what I was claiming. Also, despite the fact that Meta Knight does beat Fox, Pikachu is an infinitely better choice. In the hands of anyone with a brain, Fox simply can't beat a Pikachu. Fox can, however, despite the difficulty, beat Meta Knight. I've seen some of the best Meta Knights in the GTA go fairly even with Fox.

11) You're right. Tornado can't be broken through or punished after the lag from a shield. Glide Attack can't be clanked with, out prioritized, Shield Grabbed, PS'd, or dodge to punished. Fair and Bair can't be out spaced. Nothing beats Shuttle Loop. DTilt can't be short hopped over. FTilt has no commitment. DSmash can't be punished by jab, grab, or other attacks. You're completely right.

12) Do you not know how to DI? Like... at all? Just by holding up (I'm not even going in to specific angles for specific attacks), the killing power of not just DSmash, but even Shuttle Loop, is reduced drastically. You have absolutely no clue as to what you're talking about. DSmash doesn't even send you at a low angle. Do you attempt to Crouch Cancel every time? I don't even know why I'm posting to you.

13) Meta Knight winning tournaments does not translate in to broken.


Seriously. Thanks for wasting my life. Do you even play Brawl?

 

[gantrain05]

ugh ulevo, you have no idea, peach's worst levels being jungle japes and mansion huh? tell that to the pro peach mains......im pretty sure since you don't main either peach or olimar you can't really be arguing that point to me, a guy who mains BOTH, and does well in a competetive environment. and im too fed up with your smartass antics to reply to all that ****, stage counterpicks AND character counterpicks are involved, you can't talk about one w/out brining in the other. you are bringing up things that just aren't true or are rediculously situational, and as for MK not being unpunishable i still stand my ground, yeah tornado can be punished if MK is stupid about it, if it hits your shield a good MK will back away and land on the ground w/out the lag, Dtilt is TOO FAST to see coming, what it comes out on like frame 2? ok just let me know if your reactions are that fast and i'll call you the god of all gaming. shuttle loop is the same, if they know they aren't going to hit you with the glide attack they will just recover somewhere safer. stop stating things as if they are facts when they just aren't.

 

[Ulevo]

The problem is that he is always a good choice. Say you're going into your first match of the set. It's double blind picks, so you go with the character least likely to get screwed over: MK. Now, you win in the first set. Your opponent picks the stage, and it's your pick. If you pick any character that's not MK, your opponent will simply CP your pick and put you at a disadvantage, so you pick MK. If you lost your first match, your opponent will go through the same thought process and arrive at picking MK. So now you have to pick a character. Admittedly, you could use Snake for his even matchup with MK, but that would depend on the stage you CP'd. And since you've already practiced with him, you may as well just use MK for his even matchup with MK. Thus, the optimal strategy is to only use MK, and no strategy offers an advantage over this strategy, as MK has no disadvantageous matchups. The only thing that could help is to learn a character like Dedede to give you a large advantage when your opponent is foolish enough to pick a character that isn't MK when it's your CP, but that would be suboptimal play, anyways.

The only time it is ever an intelligent decision to pick Meta Knight, strictly by match up ratios are concerned to avoid being CP'd, is during the first set of a match, as well as when you win. You will only be CP'd during those two scenarios. If you lose, you are better off picking another character to suit your match up, unless of course Meta Knight happens to be the best choice for that match, i.e. Marth, Ice Climbers.

But that doesn't even take in to consideration character style for the player at hand, or the opponent. It also doesn't take in to consideration match up experience. Or personal preference. It even ignores stage decision, despite how good Meta Knight is on almost if not all stages. People do not follow these rules by the book. Even if they did, Meta Knight isn't the best all around choice every time.

And that's only if you want to agree that Meta Knight has no disadvantages (which I strongly disagree on, as well as many others).

 

[JustKindaBoredUKno]

JigglesThePuff, a member of the GTA PR, literally came out of no where, and beat the best players of GTA and Niagara to get 3rd place at a major tournament. No one had ever heard of him as far as I knew, at least from the players he beat were concerned. He mains Jigglypuff.

It's called an upset. THEY HAPPEN.

Jiggs is a character not well known. People don't easily beat an unknown character. Ask how many of them ever played a jig, a bet the result will be an overwhelming "none."
Compare that to how many MK's there are, hardly an arguement.

What is your point? We're voting for the ban of Meta Knight because of the fact that he might be too game breaking to be healthy for the tournament scene. We're not voting to ban him because he's extremely easy. Christ. Why don't we just move Ice Climbers to Low Tier because of how difficult they are to play in comparison. Make relevant points or don't post.

wasn't a point, quit taking so much offense. I was saying that so anyone reading wouldn't assume i had such an opinion. chill out. this is a game.

Meta Knight's Shield Stun is terrible, thus he is easily punished from commitment moves such as Fair, Bair, Glide Attack, Dair, and other such moves with lag. Meta Knight IS light. Meta Knight has range that loses to other characters with more than enough speed on start up time and cool down time to compensate with him. His aerial mobility is terrible and he has no projectile of his own. I made a thread about this. Please don't make ignorant posts.

And by the way, just to correct you, Marths FSmash is longer.

Such as g&w's bair is punishable. Actually, its not if used right, just as any DECENT mk isn't going to allow punishment.
FACT: its alot harder to punish MK then any other character 99% of the time.
Numbers don't mean jack, its how you use them.

Yes they are. You just can't use your brain to figure out how to punish. If you want me to be "practical" about it, I can sit here all day and throw out Frame rates and distancing differences between attacks, and show you just how probable it is.

again, what i just said.

And attack me all day. Like I said, this is a game. Chill out buddy.

This game isn't fair. Everyone with a brain on this site can establish that. Ask any Fox main and they'll tell you they can't stand Pikachu, and that it isn't fair. We're not debating on whether or not to ban Meta Knight because it's fair. He's the best character (arguably) in the game. Using him over someone else will always be unfair to anyone who refrains from making that decision unless they have a match up advantage. That's how fighting games (most of them) work. This point is irrelevant, again.

I wonder if you even read what you say.

We're voting for the ban of Meta Knight because of the fact that he might be too game breaking to be healthy for the tournament scene.

Best character = game breaking. Why argue your own point?

According to who? You? Just because Meta Knight doesn't do bad on Yoshi Island, or any stage, doesn't mean we should ban him, nor is it a reason to add on to the list to ban him.

No disadvantages, stage or otherwise = game breaking. Again, argueing your own point.

He isn't that much better than other characters. He simply isn't. It is not uncommon for two high level players to have a set where the player not using Meta Knight comes out on top. The player makes Meta Knight, Meta Knight does not make the player. I don't care how good you believe he is, or how easy he is to use.

33% Dominance is insane. He IS that much better. I can name a few practical disadvantages to every character besides MK. And again...

And by no means am I saying a good MK player doesn't have any skill. I'm just saying it doesn't take skill to make MK tourney-ready.

Try reading it all at once instead of purposely trying to pull out reasons to just sit there and argue.

Any characters dominance is going to effect your tournament placing. If Meta Knight were banned tomorrow, and Snake rose to the top, he would effect your placing. What kind of argument is that? Sheesh. Biased with reason is still biased. Nice try though.

Answer this. Why is MK dominating? Is the answer "just because people happen to pick him for no apparent reason?" no. its because "people pick him because he's so good." The answer is there.

By the way. If you're skilled enough to win, you will. If you're not, you won't. I don't care if you play Captain Falcon or Meta Knight. Don't make character johns on your own personal reasons to support a character ban.

As i've stated before, he ruins the community. Thats why I want him banned. If i truly wanted a character ban based on my personal experiences, it'd be snake. I was just bringing a point up. Again, quit taking so much offense. I'm at a loss as to why you even take me so seriously if you're willing to sit there and mock everything i type out.

Anyone who uses a character other than their main normally can't compete and win in a tournament if their name isn't Azen. I couldn't pick up Mario and start placing anywhere near what I do with my main. Even if I tried that with a highly placed character such as R.O.B., who I'm very unfamiliar with, I still couldn't. You're assuming that Meta Knight does the work for the player, and thus the player at hand has no ability themselves to compete with another character if they trained themselves to use said character.

Ex: Lain - IC's and DDD
he uses DDD alot more, from what i've seen, but still uses IC's, and clearly wins with them. Saying someone can't use more then 2 characters is flatout ignorant. Are you telling me counterpicks don't exist in this game?

Meta Knight is currently the most dominant character in the game. Guess what? People are going to lose to Meta Knight. That's what indicates that he's dominant. We don't go out and ban characters because they're dominant. We ban characters if they're broken. This is a completely generalized statement. The community hasn't devolved to a state where everyone needs to use Meta Knight to win. It simply has it. You're not even taking in to consideration all the players that use Meta Knight a lose to other characters. Or skill level. Or anything else.

MK's current dominance indicates broken.

And its about to, and its already happening, even if more on an intellectual side. (Overswarm) Many people are using MK just becuase they think (realize) they have to in order to beat other MKs.

And its not all the players that bother me. Its the good, even decent ones, that compete with the best of the best, undeservingly.


Again, quit taking so much offense to everything thats said. Not everything is directed at you. This is just a game.

 

[salaboB]

If I were a disrespectful prick, I'd stop quoting you here for you're stupidity, but I'll continue.

Judging from the tone of this comment and the points that followed, I think you meant to say "weren't".

...I've got nothing else to contribute atm.

Edit: How about this -- can we try to keep the name calling down? It doesn't help your point to litter "stupid" and "you're dumb" throughout it, and it just riles people on both sides of the discussion up.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Ok, it seems we STILL have people voting "No" As they want to wait a little before banning MK, SamuraiPanda, Do we count those votes at all or no?

As for why I voted Yes. More diverse and balanced Metagame, and a much more fun, friendly, and overall better community. ( Banning MK would be like finding the cure to, oh say, AIDS or something, as hes becoming a very serious problem.)

As for Melee Fox, Didn't Peach have a 0-death on him? MK can't have that happen to him in the least.

 

[Ulevo]

Stuff.

So you're allowed to argue about the specifics of my main, Meta Knight, but I of course am unable to comment on Olimar or Peach? It doesn't take a NASA member to figure out the basics of Brawl. It's not a complex game.

You don't need lightning fast reflexes to avoid Meta Knights DTilt. It's called spacing. Do you know what that is? You certainly don't know how to DI, so I'm unsure if you do. Shuttle Loop is very easy to punish since Glide Attack is very unsafe on grounded opponents and if Meta Knight retreats to another locations, the other character will either hit him from below or follow him. Tornado can be broken through by a vast majority of moves (I made an entire list on them), or you can punish the lag afterwards. There is lag afterwards, by the way. Despite spacing efforts, Meta Knight can't avoid this against a character that isn't horrendously slow.

You state that I make ridiculous claims. All my claims are factual. All my facts can be proven. Not this arbitrary bull**** that you claim like Tornado not having lag. Go play tetris or something. It's fairly simple game, I'm sure you can understand it.

im too fed up with your smartass antics to reply to all that ****,

Good, I'm glad to hear it. I'm tired of wasting my efforts on members like you, who post ludicrous claims such as DSmash sending at low angles, or Link ****** G&W, or Falco doing bad against most of the cast. You're an idiot, bold and true. The less time I spend fixing your claims and correcting your mistakes, the more time I have to do something productive.