Advancing the Metagame - Little Facts We Need To test!

Alright now I created this as a list of "things we should really test" not only so people may say "hey I'll test that for you" but so I can keep organized.

EDIT-

If you think we should test something please tell us. No matter how obscure it is

Thank you,
Havokk

END EDIT-

Answered

Test:Who can powershield the 3rd hit of our Jab? Who can avoid the AAA combo? etc
Answered: Click Here

Test: Test to see if dropping a C4 then C-sticking a mine (aerial drop the c4) will blow up at same time.
Answered: They do explode at the same time.
________________________________

Test: KO %'s for uncharged mines, fully charged mines, and C4.
Answered: Click Here
________________________________

Test: What %'s a SH Dair will KO at?
answered: See this post: Click Here
________________________________

Test: Whats the best aerial to use for DI? Bair, Uair, or Dair? (Remember, you want the quickest aerial, then you want to fastfall)
Answered: Bair. Always. Fastest move
________________________________

Test:What are the jab kill percentages against the cast? (The last hit only, and all 3 connecting)
Answered: We have the answers Click Here
________________________________

Test:What attacks (ftilt, utilt, fsmash, usmash) can we crouch under? (note: you can test one and let someone else test the other, so we can have 1 or 4 testers, or more testers =p doesn't matter.)
Answered: Click Here
________________________________

Test:Out of 100 tests (so we can have a %) (or more if you like) how many ftilt's (first hit only) does it take to trip?
Test variables:

• Test ranges of 0%, 30%, 70%, and 100%
• Test to see if there really is a 'special' hitbox on the ftilt to see if that affects tripping ( try close up and far away for a small while at any %, if it doesn't make a difference then you can stop testing)
• Does it trip heavyweights more then lightweights?

Answered: Click Here
________________________________

Test: Is "Cypher Attacking" worth it?
Answered: If you're going to die, at least try and aim the cypher at your opponent. It's an extra few %.
_________________________________

Test: What projectiles destroy Nikita?
Answered: Click Here
_________________________________

Test:Does Fair deal more damage when it is sweetspotted (spike) or sourspotted (non-spike)?
Answered: It does 1% more
________________________________

Test:Can we utilt people off the ledge? How about any other moves? Which characters?
Answered: We can utilt every character off of the ledge.
Dash attack: Read it Here

Partly Answered

Test: What Forward Smashes will our Forward Tilt "clank" with? (They both cancel out)
Test Variables:

• Uncharged
• Sweetspotted or not (King DeDeDe for example)

Answered: Click Me
________________________________

Test: What Down Airs does our Uair outprioritize? ( I can't test this by myself :/ ... maybe someone with a friend?)
Answered: Click Me
________________________________

Test: Can we Grab Release x move Wario? How about any other character? (Such as Grab Release > Jab > Ftilt > Ftilt2)
Answered: You can use Nair/uair against Wario after an Aerial Grab Release.

________________________________

Test: Combo List ( Jab > Ftilt > Ftilt2 for example) (uthrow > utilt at which %'s, etc.)
Answered: We have some data about uthrow>utilt to see it Click Here

________________________________

Test:Which characters, if any, can we do Dthrow to reverse Fsmash and hit 100% of the time?
Test variables:

• Make sure to dthrow, then mash back on the c-stick as fast as possible, we are going to assume we KNOW the opponent is rolling back AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, so we want to reverse Fsmash AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
• Make sure to hold shield during the roll, so if they can shield it they do.
• Note that some characters roll slower then others, while others are faster hence why this needs testing. (Some also roll farther then others)

Answered:I tested Mario through Yoshi, and it didn't work for any of them. I will assume this is not guaranteed, although it does work (quite) often on Human Players.

Untested

Test: What Up-B's does Ftilt Stop?
Answered: In Testing
________________________________

Test: What causes a C4 to dissapear rather then explode?
________________________________

Test: What recoveries can we get an easy C4 Stick on if we are nearby?
Answered: I'm going to guess Lucario because of the startup lag and he doesn't do damage. But what others?
________________________________

Test:What %'s will an explosion (uncharged mine, fully charged mine, grenade, c4) lead to a 'guaranteed' nair?
Answered: This will take a while to test, and it may never be guaranteed, it may be guaranteed vs only certain characters (possibly heavyweigts?) etc.

________________________________

Test:At what %'s will Dtilt successfully lead to an aerial? (to make dtilt not useless)
________________________________

Test:What causes a grenade to blow up rather then 'bounce'?
________________________________

I can test either the KO% for mines, or the Ftilt clanking with Fsmash ones later today. Which one would you prefer?

me saying useless stuff

wouldn't it be a better idea to test mine kill %s outside of training mode? Theres a slight damage difference (possibly knockback too, but I'm not sure about that) which will skew our results slightly

Havokk, I can help test.

Mostly things like Ike's upB, but.. yeah.

Thanks for mentor, you don't need to tell me I suck...

Did you find the ftilt cancel in our matches?

more useless stuff

I'm going to be busy with other (more important IMO) things so if anyone wants to take over the research I managed to get like 3 hours ago.

C4:
Mario 93%
Luigi 92%
Peach 86%
Bowser 104%
Donkey Kong 108%
Diddy Kong 91%

That's just C4

Things to test:

C4, Mine (Charged/Uncharged), C4 (Sticky on someone, if it makes a difference)

Also my method was rather.. slow (placing at 100, then moving up or down in 5's, then up or down in 1's) so maybe go the utilt (since I believe thats all by weight) and adjust %'s according to weight so you do less playing around with the % of the CPU.

Sorry for dumping this so soon... would rather finish the Frame Data, another Video Guide, and get the picture/stage discussion thread updated.

Havokk said:

.

Test: What causes a C4 to dissapear rather then explode?

Click to expand...

seems difficult to test, C4 disappears for 1 sec., but during that one second it will reappear and explode if the 27 sec. has elasped, also, attempting to detonate it during the expiration will result in snake blowing up nothing

cycon365 said:

seems difficult to test, C4 disappears for 1 sec., but during that one second it will reappear and explode if the 27 sec. has elasped

Click to expand...

Talking about this:

I came on to post the same findings

I got identical #s

D*MN YOU HAVOKK

also, in my testing of time of C4 after Snake died, I either got 27 (rounded up) or the C4 just disappeared, do you know what causes it to disappear instead of exploding?

Click to expand...

OP Updated with new things to test.

i believe the best aerial for recovery is dair, (if i remember correctly it comes out on frame 3)

That's what I thought, it seemed faster then every other aerial >.>

Thanks Tub, again. lol

lol, got one of these things done tonight. The Mines and C4 death percentage.

Mm...I could probably get some data on the SH Dair KO thing...tomorrow though, if no one else has done it by then >.>

Dair variables:

1. All hits connect
2. Only last hit connects (some people roll/don't shield)
3. IT MUST BE FROM (around) THE CENTER OF FINAL DESTINATION

Other then that, have fun testing xD (doesn't have to be SH'd... just a dair)

Havokk said:

Dair variables:

1. All hits connect
2. Only last hit connects (some people roll/don't shield)
3. IT MUST BE FROM (around) THE CENTER OF FINAL DESTINATION

Other then that, have fun testing xD (doesn't have to be SH'd... just a dair)

Click to expand...

Edit: Realized my post was pretty stupid when I re-read the OP >_>

Shadow_of_Link said:

Edit: Realized my post was pretty stupid when I re-read the OP >_>

Click to expand...

lmao xD well thats ok.

UPDATE:

Added to my big book of everything (the Compendium)

Added a new section about Cypher attack

Adding a new 'tech' (lol not really) I call Cypher Boost Aerials.

Jump > up-B (so you get the jump momentum) > aerial (preferably nair/uair)

Offensive juggling/KO move, and its actually pretty fast (and I've gotten a KO this way a few times) and I NEVER SEE a Snake do this.... may come in handy

Credit goes to Khaoz for helping me test, and me for helping me test!

Characters who will NOT clank with Snake's Ftilt:

Donkey Kong
Zelda
ROB
DeDeDe
Olimar
Ike


Note, these were characters I was UNABLE to produce a clank with. It might be possible that there is a single frame where it will work, but even with multiple trials of both of us trying to get one, we were not able to produce a clank.

Also, even the ones you can clank with have VERY few frames in which it can be done. It may be possible to use this strategically, but very hard.

Edit: Removed Wolf from the list. I couldn't do it in training, then got it three times in an actual match

Alright, so I just finished the testing for Snakes dair. I did it connecting with every hit from the very center of final destination so these should be accurate.

MK 84
Snake 93
D3 90
G&W 81
Falco 82
ROB 88
Marth 79
Wario 93
Lucario 86
DK 95
Diddy 80
Pikachu 84
IC 79
Kirby 84
Pit 81
Wolf 85
Toon Link 82
Olimar 84
Fox 82
Zelda 87
ZSS 85
Bowser 95
Luigi 85
Peach 80
Ike 87
Sheik 84
Lucas 83
Ness 81
Mario 86
Pokemon Trainer
Charizard 91
Ivysaur 86
Squirtle 82
Samus 92
Yoshi 91
Sonic 81
Jigglypuff 79
Ganondorf 90
Link 87
Captain Falcon 90

Well, there you go, hopefully this helps a bit. I even put it in tier order so you don't have to spend time looking for the ones that matter.

8AngeL8 said:

Credit goes to Khaoz for helping me test, and me for helping me test!

Characters who will NOT clank with Snake's Ftilt:

Donkey Kong
Zelda
ROB
DeDeDe
Olimar
Ike


Note, these were characters I was UNABLE to produce a clank with. It might be possible that there is a single frame where it will work, but even with multiple trials of both of us trying to get one, we were not able to produce a clank.

Also, even the ones you can clank with have VERY few frames in which it can be done. It may be possible to use this strategically, but very hard.

Edit: Removed Wolf from the list. I couldn't do it in training, then got it three times in an actual match

Click to expand...

Up-B or Fsmash?

mdmfromdaridge said:

Alright, so I just finished the testing for Snakes dair. I did it connecting with every hit from the very center of final destination so these should be accurate.

MK 84
Snake 93
D3 90
G&W 81
Falco 82
ROB 88
Marth 79
Wario 93
Lucario 86
DK 95
Diddy 80
Pikachu 84
IC 79
Kirby 84
Pit 81
Wolf 85
Toon Link 82
Olimar 84
Fox 82
Zelda 87
ZSS 85
Bowser 95
Luigi 85
Peach 80
Ike 87
Sheik 84
Lucas 83
Ness 81
Mario 86
Pokemon Trainer
Charizard 91
Ivysaur 86
Squirtle 82
Samus 92
Yoshi 91
Sonic 81
Jigglypuff 79
Ganondorf 90
Link 87
Captain Falcon 90

Well, there you go, hopefully this helps a bit. I even put it in tier order so you don't have to spend time looking for the ones that matter.

Click to expand...

Thanks I'll add a link to this post in the OP

jab -> ftilt (both hits) works on most characters if done fast (possibly a buffer). could be avoided by DI away

u-throw -> utilt works on most characters at 0% for the most part, past 20% won't work

possible combo can be like this. u-smash -> N-air the mortar should make contact with person on ground and pops up into the n-air when done correctly.

as for cypher attack. could easily follow with u-air when connected correctly

C4's disappear for a brief second when someone dies and then reappears at the same spot where it's placed.

nevershootme said:

jab -> ftilt (both hits) works on most characters if done fast (possibly a buffer). could be avoided by DI away

u-throw -> utilt works on most characters at 0% for the most part, past 20% won't work

possible combo can be like this. u-smash -> N-air the mortar should make contact with person on ground and pops up into the n-air when done correctly.

as for cypher attack. could easily follow with u-air when connected correctly

C4's disappear for a brief second when someone dies and then reappears at the same spot where it's placed.

Click to expand...

Trying to get in depth data "most characters" isn't good enough for my liking.

As for the Cypher Attack, do you mean using it offensively or as you're about to SD (like how I meant in the OP) the second time I mention it I mean using the Cypher Boost to quickly gain ground for an aerial. Both work decently.

C4's disappearing in general, not just for a second. (I believe thats what he meant when it dissapears)

Havokk said:

Trying to get in depth data "most characters" isn't good enough for my liking.

As for the Cypher Attack, do you mean using it offensively or as you're about to SD (like how I meant in the OP) the second time I mention it I mean using the Cypher Boost to quickly gain ground for an aerial. Both work decently.

C4's disappearing in general, not just for a second. (I believe thats what he meant when it dissapears)

Click to expand...

-u-throw to u-tilt actually works on all characters as a matter of fact


cypher attacking for using it offensively waa wat i should have meant.


here's something to add if that's so. against wario, if you grab release him, he has a huge lag before even jumping to escape. you can easily follow with n-air or u-tilt (for teh kill)

Go go Havokk.

Here's something you can test its prolly located somewhere in a sticky if it is I'll edit my post.

What are the jab kill percentages? (The last hit)
What moves can be used after a Dtilt successfully? (Unless it doesn't send them upwards like Sheik and ZSS's lol)

nevershootme said:

-u-throw to u-tilt actually works on all characters as a matter of fact


cypher attacking for using it offensively waa wat i should have meant.


here's something to add if that's so. against wario, if you grab release him, he has a huge lag before even jumping to escape. you can easily follow with n-air or u-tilt (for teh kill)

Click to expand...

Good Snake's should know about the Wario Grab Release, then again... almost every character has a grab release SOMETHING on him. Then again, this isn't really meant for Good Snake's =p just Snake's in general, so I'll add the grab release.

Which brings me to a new test idea:

OP Updated

8 Characters completed for uair/ftilt:

Sorry Tub, but I had to go :3 dinner.

and these are pretty hard to test with button delay/lag xD

Also:

Stale moves don't count unless you HIT ME. So spamming B/smashes, unless they hit me don't remove the Staleness

Uair > Dair?

Snake's Uair Beats:
Mario slightly after startup (first few hitboxes)
Mario slightly after startup (first few hitboxes)
Bowser's (always it seems like, so w00t! we can juggle (I think it beats down-b as well, we should test that)
Diddy Kong's (as long as you space correctly)


Snake's Uair Clashes With (both cancel):

Snake's Uair loses to:
Yoshi's (and you eat like 30%)

Snake's Uair trades with (both get hit):
Mario after startup
Luigi after startup
Peach's (always it seems like)
DK's if he times it perfectly to spike you, otherwise you win
Wario's



Ftilt > Fsmash?

Snake's Ftilt Clashes:
Mario (can also outspace it, hard to time)
Luigi's (can also outspace it, hard to time)
Peach's (impossible timing, easily outspaces all but GOLF CLUB that has deceptive range)
Bowser's (timing is extremely difficult, otherwise he wins)
Diddy Kong (first swing)
Yoshi's (simple timing)

Snake's Ftilt Beats:
Diddy Kong (any time after first swing)


Snake's Ftilt loses to:
DK's (unless you time it perfectly...did I mention it outreaches you?)
Wario's (SA frames, duh?)
Zelda (thanks Angel)
ROB (thanks Angel)
DeDeDe (thanks Angel)
Olimar (thanks Angel)
Ike (thanks Angel)

Click to expand...

sorry, didnt know that about stale moves... sd refreshes, not landing a hit does not. for some reason i thought the oppisite. oops

Havokk, I was testing against their Fsmash. I can do it with their Up-B, too, but it won't be until tomorrow.

Does the last hit of jab kill % still need to be tested? If so I can do that <<;

Yes

Doesn't matter if you hit all 3, or just the last hit :3 we just need an exact KO %. (only last hit would be easier)

Snake Jab Kill % (Only last hit)

Mario: 137
Luigi: 136
Peach: 132
Bowser: 148
DK: 146
Diddy: 132
Yoshi: 141
Wario: 141
Link: 138
Zelda: 128
Sheik: 123
Ganondorf: 142
Toon Link: 133
Samus: 144
Zero Suit Samus: 123
Pit: 133
Ice Climbers: 131
R.O.B.: 142
Kirby: 123
Meta Knight: 122
King Dedede: 145
Olimar: 126
Fox: 117
Falco: 123
Wolf: 126
Captain Falcon: 139
Pikachu: 122
Squirtle: 118
Ivysaur: 138
Charizard: 145
Lucario: 137
Jigglypuff: 117
Marth: 129
Ike: 141
Ness: 132
Lucas: 132
Mr. Game and Watch: 119
Snake: 146
Sonic: 133

All tested in the middle of Final Destination, CPU was set to control so there would be no DI. I'm rather iffy about some of the numbers (Olimar O.o) But it seems to be very accurate.

Anyone know how much jab hits 1 and 2 do? (that we can simply subtract from these #'s to find out when the full jab combo hits )

Also, thanks for the update. updating OP

4, then 3

since we're looking for kill percents, should we invest into looking at Ftilt?

cycon365 said:

since we're looking for kill percents, should we invest into looking at Ftilt?

Click to expand...

That's our most staled move, but since it is a reliable killer... >.> why not

Havokk said:

Test: Is "Cypher Attacking" worth it?
Answered: If you're going to die, at least try and aim the cypher at your opponent. It's an extra few %.

Click to expand...

There are also situations where this helps you survive. I have found that if metaknight is about to up-B you and you know he's going to do it (some people can be very predictable with the way they use it) you can air dodge off of your Cypher and hit MK with your cypher when he reachers the peak of his up-B and knock him out of a glide. This way, if you spaced it right, you'll avoid the attack and deal a small % to him as well, not to mention preventing a follow-up glide attack.

Subversion said:

There are also situations where this helps you survive. I have found that if metaknight is about to up-B you and you know he's going to do it (some people can be very predictable with the way they use it) you can air dodge off of your Cypher and hit MK with your cypher when he reachers the peak of his up-B and knock him out of a glide. This way, if you spaced it right, you'll avoid the attack and deal a small % to him as well, not to mention preventing a follow-up glide attack.

Click to expand...

it'll knock him out of a glide, but he'll be facing you and the cypher does little knockback, allowing hit to Up +B or do something else (although you can dodge that too)

EDIT: Gave up on Ftilts, damage was getting really high and I was trying to land the second hit only which got a little tedious after a while

cycon, what you could do is hit with the first hit only one time, see the damage it does, and from then on subtract it from the damage it takes for them to die. that way while testing you can just hit with both to save time, and you wont have to worry about spacing and all that crap.

Ok folks...

1. Powershield grenade counter (shield drop the grenade, opponent explodes) at mid %'s (perhaps 30-60%) into double-hopped (or full hopped) nair.

It's sexy, but I haven't really done in depth testing, and it's situational on DI.

2. We should find Dair's that Cypher goes through, using Cypher to avoid attacks then countering is actually worth the damage. (this is sexy.... and I've done it already to beat a D3 who tried to jump>dair from my uthrow)

3. Shield Drop Grenade> Grab it > run off stage > C-stick back towards stage (quickly) = good low-throw grenades.

Problems:
1. Can't grenade strip
2. You have to cook it a little if you think they will be approaching.
3. A non-cooked, semi "hugged", strong tossed 'nade will reach over to the other side of FD and explode right as it reaches the edge. I got a stage spike because of this. (super super epic) but situational. (this is a problem because cooking it correctly gets confusing)
4. You must recover with cypher... leaves you in a horrible position if you miss
5. It's 'flashy' but not very 'useful' anyone want to test some uses?

Uses:
1. A late toss will result in the grenade hitting the stage. Maybe you can cook, throw it at the lip of the stage, and hit an opponent behind you? Extreme mindgames anyone? (less cooking and timing needed, seeing as opponent may up-B/aerial into it.
2. Many opponents manage to grab it and not realize it because it's hard to see on FD. I actually got a kill because an opponent nair caught it, recovered, dropped down, and it blew up and stage spiked him. xD (lol.... this is useful opponents pick it up and don't even realize it :D)
3. It's flashy (thats a problem and a use!) flashy makes nice videos. lol

tested some things...
2. MKs dair will only knock snake out of cypher if not stale, and sweet spotted (if MK is directly above you, or has used dair once or twice recently, you will stay in cypher)
ROB and DKs dair will always knock you out of cypher, however, ROBs uair will not.
D3s dair will never knock you out of cypher, his uair usually does.
Snake's last hit of dair will knock you out of cypher, the first three will not.
Didnt feel like testing anyone else.

3. ive seen ally do this before, seemed useful..

as for the problems listed:
4. its possible to do this and recover with a midair jump (no cypher needed) in fact, it is possible to: shield drop grenade > grab it > run off the edge > c-stick it towards stage > jump > any aerial while returning to stage (preferably dair).
5. I tested some uses aswell.

1. to expand on hitting the stage with a nade to hit someone behind you, ive found that you can: shield drop gren > grab it > run off stage > hit edge of stage with nade by c-sticking towards it > nair to catch it (while stage spiking opponent) > cypher > nade blows up > cypher again. (if you fail to catch the nade for any reason, cypher immediatly after the nair, and be prepared to c4.
3. yes, it is flashy... also dicovered some interesting ways to combine nades and ledge invicibility frames (also flashy). for this to work you have to be near the edge, have a reasonable amount of space between you and opp. and it needs to be done fast. shield drop nade > c-stick it up > shield drop second nade > c-stick it down > run off stage > grab ledge immediately > first nade will blow up in front of you right when you grab the ledge > shortly thereafter (like a fraction of a second), get up, or jump up > if you do a normal get up, the second nade will blow up right on you (taking no damage of course) > if you jump up, do an airdodge, you will catch the nade right before it blows up, and take no damage.
if anyone has trouble visualising any of these things, tell me your fc, and ill show you online. (sorry, but i cant upload vids.)