illinialex24
Smash Hero
Please discuss Jigglypuff's potential, strategy and stage counterpicks here.
And I'll do the Yoshi write-up soon.
And I'll do the Yoshi write-up soon.
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Jigglypuff Matchup #4: Zelda
- Thread starter illinialex24
- Start date
Veril
Frame Savant
Sigh. I always use Lucas for Zelda.
I'll look into the rest stuff for her. I'm pretty sure the n-air, f-smash and hyphen smash are countered by rest. There might be something involving her down-tilt as well.
I'll look into the rest stuff for her. I'm pretty sure the n-air, f-smash and hyphen smash are countered by rest. There might be something involving her down-tilt as well.
Mmac
Smash Lord
I am not looking forward to that write up....
and personally, the matchup isn't really finished at all.
whatever, just come to our thread about it
Veril
Frame Savant
Or... not.
PND
Smash Champion
I have more Jiggs versus Zelda experience than any other. Not only that, my crewmate and main doubles partner plays a mean Zelda. I'll see if he can contribute.
I'll post when I can, too late, Christmas eve etc. . .
I'll post when I can, too late, Christmas eve etc. . .
MrEh
Smash Hero
Zelda's Usmash is total balls. Any way to realistically rest through it Veril? SDI into it or something?
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
I think there is a way to SDI through it. If so, we should be able to rest them out of it.
I'm actually going to go and test this. Zelda was my old main, so I have a compelling need.
rinoH
Smash Lord
lol zelda destroys jiggs zelda can just play really defensive though with our new findings with rest maybe it could be a more even match up
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
I've got nothing. I can't seem to get s rest in with SDI, I'm totally inept at using 2 controllers at the same time, blah blah. Couldn't interrupt U/Dsmash at all. Maybe I just suck at it 
Will test again later with help if I can get any.
Will test again later with help if I can get any.
Glick
Smash Lord
I use ness for zelda -_-. Same with lucario.
Zelda can just stand there and up smash. There is literally nothing you can do about it.
Zelda can just stand there and up smash. There is literally nothing you can do about it.
CO18
Smash Hero
lol I use jiggs randomly sometimes and its pretty good. I was playing my friend's Zelda who he never uses and since I know nothing really about jiggs matchups I was like WTF I cant do anything.
He just fsmashed and upsmashed like a noob and it shut me down XD
This matchup is lolable
He just fsmashed and upsmashed like a noob and it shut me down XD
This matchup is lolable
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Its possible but you have to fake approaches like a mother ****er. Serious here. He will **** you if he reads your approach and you have to approach (Din's Fire is too good). You need to be a beast at shield-grabbing and being able to grab quickly. Her D-smash is the real issue here as long as you don't use rollout (then U-smash kills). The trick here is to use pound rarely, approach backwards constantly and most of the time go back with or without an airdodge, sometimes go through with an air-dodge, and other times bair them or dair them. Her recovery is slow, you likely won't gimp her but she definitely will take damage, and a lot of it.
MrEh
Smash Hero
All of Zelda's smashes are totally crazy.
Fsmash can be used for spacing.
Dsmash can be used for punishing.
And Usmash can be used...for everything. ><
Fsmash can be used for spacing.
Dsmash can be used for punishing.
And Usmash can be used...for everything. ><
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Right but all can be punished with pound if done well. They are ridiculous but thats why you need to fake them out.
rinoH
Smash Lord
dont forget about her neutral b move and f tilt which is really quick
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Yeah but I hate her smashes more.....
Veril
Frame Savant
I'm gonna have something on this either later tonight or tomorrow. A very important thing quite a few people don't realize is electric attacks do strange stuff. I don't know whether they have higher hitstun, or what. You can see the effect magnified if you use the "timer" item. Regardless, when I looked at Ness, I should have been able to interrupt his dash, but I couldn't because of the electrical component.
I think that all electrical attacks have a very minor version of the effect of Zero Suit's down smash and forward special.
I've gotten pretty good at using two controllers at once
SDI to interrupt the turtle with no help was... difficult.An escape diagonally downwards into a rest as soon as the move stops might work. It likely would off of a ledge.
Snowstalker
Smash Ace
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2008
- Messages
- 813
What was the Jiggs vs. Yo-yo verdict?
illinialex24
Smash Hero
I'm going to be writing it tomorrow (todays Christmas). The matchup numbers will be 45-55 or 40-60.
GeneralWoodman
Smash Lord
jiggz and zelda are even, a well spaced jiggz will usually beat the smash spammy zelda. and a well timed a zelda will gets some hits in. 50-50 in my opinion
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Sorry but no. Her smashes are too good. I am hoping that this will get to be 40-60 in Zelda's favor, and it likely will.
MrEh
Smash Hero
I don't know...50-50 sounds a bit high. Zelda has some pretty glaring advantages in this matchup. Usmash LOLOLOL!
In all seriousness, as a Bowser player, I hate Zelda with a passion. It's one of his worst matchups, and I know how difficult it can be to beat a good Zelda. The Usmash just *****, and Zelda has a large range on a lot of her attacks. A lot of Zelda's attacks outrange Jiggs, and Zelda was blessed with freakishly strong strength. (Lightning Kicks and Utilts are crazy.)
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
I'm stuck on 60:40 Zelda right now, but tell me, how hard is it to get Zelda off of the stage and dead?
illinialex24
Smash Hero
It depends. A good bair, fair or back throw can screw around with Zelda and really hurt her recovery, but to get her dead, it is fairly hard on a good Zelda, but definitely possible. However, her gameplay really screws with that. However, F-smash is definitely decent in this matchup. its not amazing but better than normal.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
Agreed with Fsmash.
Maybe 60:40 is perfect. Somehow I was seeing 55:45, but if her smashes are really THAT problematic, then maybe 60:40 is fine. Definitely no more than that, though.
I think we should just wait for more people to post so we can get a deeper analysis of the match.
Maybe 60:40 is perfect. Somehow I was seeing 55:45, but if her smashes are really THAT problematic, then maybe 60:40 is fine. Definitely no more than that, though.
I think we should just wait for more people to post so we can get a deeper analysis of the match.
I'm thinking it could be only slightly more, maybe 65:35 Zelda, but it's definitely Zelda's advantage - I fight a pretty competent jiggs offline (though no one of importance ^^ ) and I have to say unless Zelda is baited, jiggs isn't coming through her defence so easily.
USmash for aerials and SH approaches. Upwards Ftilt for approaches coming at her height. If I'm feeling pressured I use jab considering the height of its hitbox, it normally catches out quick aerial approaches. Even FSmash has slight a slight vertical hitbox. Zelda is simply anti-aerialist. I think this is where the 60:40 advantage comes from.
I think where it slightly edges more in her favour to around 65:35 is her ability to KO jiggs at freakishly low percents. Utilt trades with your aerials and I'm willing to make that tradeoff the moment you hit 60+% percent, considering its knockback. Jiggs weight and floaty nature pops her up from Dtilt allowing Zelda to true combo into Utilt, that is of jiggs is ever on the ground. But this is what I'd do if I ever see you on the ground.
Ground game wise... Zelda's FSmash outprioritises and outranges everything jiggs has (though I havn't tested rollout). Her Dtilt eliminates Jiggs' FSmash by clanking with it and comes out on frame 5. If I see jiggs about to FSmash I dtilt or jab to save myself immediately.
I won't use din's in this matchup a lot. Jiggs has brilliant aerial acceleration, she's one of the few characters that can possibly punish Zelda well for using din's.
Edgeguarding wise - Zelda will warp passed jiggs if she's quick enough, but if Zelda is at moderately higher percents she an FW passed jiggs faster than jiggs can catch her in the air. It's best to wait by the ledge and punish Zelda if she lands on stage. The other way around, I'll pressure with USmash, Uair and utilt if you're above me and close by. Other than that, I'll jump out and attempt to spike or LK. As jiggs' body expands whenever she jumps, LKs are slightly easier to connect, much like kirby.
If her aerial game catches you at all, you'll most likely die =(
Let me know if I have written anything hideously wrong >.>
Also, hope you guys are having a great christmas! It's passed already over here =p
USmash for aerials and SH approaches. Upwards Ftilt for approaches coming at her height. If I'm feeling pressured I use jab considering the height of its hitbox, it normally catches out quick aerial approaches. Even FSmash has slight a slight vertical hitbox. Zelda is simply anti-aerialist. I think this is where the 60:40 advantage comes from.
I think where it slightly edges more in her favour to around 65:35 is her ability to KO jiggs at freakishly low percents. Utilt trades with your aerials and I'm willing to make that tradeoff the moment you hit 60+% percent, considering its knockback. Jiggs weight and floaty nature pops her up from Dtilt allowing Zelda to true combo into Utilt, that is of jiggs is ever on the ground. But this is what I'd do if I ever see you on the ground.
Ground game wise... Zelda's FSmash outprioritises and outranges everything jiggs has (though I havn't tested rollout). Her Dtilt eliminates Jiggs' FSmash by clanking with it and comes out on frame 5. If I see jiggs about to FSmash I dtilt or jab to save myself immediately.
I won't use din's in this matchup a lot. Jiggs has brilliant aerial acceleration, she's one of the few characters that can possibly punish Zelda well for using din's.
Edgeguarding wise - Zelda will warp passed jiggs if she's quick enough, but if Zelda is at moderately higher percents she an FW passed jiggs faster than jiggs can catch her in the air. It's best to wait by the ledge and punish Zelda if she lands on stage. The other way around, I'll pressure with USmash, Uair and utilt if you're above me and close by. Other than that, I'll jump out and attempt to spike or LK. As jiggs' body expands whenever she jumps, LKs are slightly easier to connect, much like kirby.
If her aerial game catches you at all, you'll most likely die =(
Let me know if I have written anything hideously wrong >.>
Also, hope you guys are having a great christmas! It's passed already over here =p
illinialex24
Smash Hero
I think they both have abilities to kill each other fairly well, but I think it will stay at 60-40 because if Jigglypuff spaces well, she won't die ridiculously early. Thats just my analysis, I'll input more later.
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
Something no one else has posted. **** HER IF SHE IS DIRECTLY ABOVE YOU IN THE AIR. Seriously, recovering straight down with zelda is horrible. She has almost no options in this scenario. And you can interrupt Nair with overlap rest.
Ant to the Zelda mains: Your smashes are bad for us. Pound is really helpful, but pound spam is BAD. Getting through them is quite difficult.
Ant to the Zelda mains: Your smashes are bad for us. Pound is really helpful, but pound spam is BAD. Getting through them is quite difficult.
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
I'm busy now so I'll post more later, but the fact that our Usmash destroys all your aerial approaches, our ground game is just all around better than yours and we can kill you at ludicrously low percents doesn't bode well for your odds.
RoyalBlood
Smash Ace
Nayru's Love makes Rollout pass through Zelda if you get the frames nicely, potentially making Jigglypuff get KO'ed if they're too close to the edge >:l Just like Peach Bomber and some F-smashes
But you can pressure Zelda to some degree with Rollout, now that it has very nice knockback :3
But you can pressure Zelda to some degree with Rollout, now that it has very nice knockback :3
Sonic The Hedgedawg
Smash Hero
while that's true about nayru's, it's better to just Fsamsh jiggly out of rollout or Dtilt parry it followed by pretty much anything. in fact, rollout isn't the least bit threatening on any stage with platforms to begin with, and it's just begging for you to fire din's at it... which will halt it.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Except that you can't use it all the time because Jigglypuff's bait and then punish the lag afterwards.
Yes you can bait and punish, but isn't that a player trait, not a character trait? Jigglypuff can bait and punish, but Zelda of equal knowledge of the matchup can simply not fall for those baits. And if she doesn't fall for those baits, what do you do next? Using jigglypuff to bait Zelda is down to your control, but when you look at the matchup based on their moves:
- USmash outprioritises her aerials.
- Utilt trades and will kill her at vertically at extremely low percents. I would gladly make this tradeoff with you.
- FSmash outranges your ground game.
- Your floaty, so Dtilt pops you up higher at earlier percents to set up a true combo to DSmash, Utilt, Usmash, whatever!
- Your extremely light, she's extremely powerful! They are both on the opposite ends of the spectrum, and incredibly advantageous to Zelda.
What you do have is a better aerial game, a much better one at that. But Zelda never takes fights to the air. If she's falling from above, she'll FW to the ground if you're about to chase, or simply airdodge > Uair which is likely to kill you.
Hmmm, I'm still thinking 65:35, I need more convincing otherwise for it to be 60:40. Jiggly's light weight and inability to get through to Zelda make her this disadvantageous. The fact she has to mixup her playstyle in order to win puts her ata disadvantage, Zelda simply has to act (yet again), passively and defensively to win.
- USmash outprioritises her aerials.
- Utilt trades and will kill her at vertically at extremely low percents. I would gladly make this tradeoff with you.
- FSmash outranges your ground game.
- Your floaty, so Dtilt pops you up higher at earlier percents to set up a true combo to DSmash, Utilt, Usmash, whatever!
- Your extremely light, she's extremely powerful! They are both on the opposite ends of the spectrum, and incredibly advantageous to Zelda.
What you do have is a better aerial game, a much better one at that. But Zelda never takes fights to the air. If she's falling from above, she'll FW to the ground if you're about to chase, or simply airdodge > Uair which is likely to kill you.
Hmmm, I'm still thinking 65:35, I need more convincing otherwise for it to be 60:40. Jiggly's light weight and inability to get through to Zelda make her this disadvantageous. The fact she has to mixup her playstyle in order to win puts her ata disadvantage, Zelda simply has to act (yet again), passively and defensively to win.
I never understood why people complain about Zelda's FSmash - I usually DI out of that.
USmash, FTilt, and DSmash are beastly.. how does DSmash hit while you're in the air?!
Atleast Zelda's recovery sucks: too predictable and easily punished. Same with Din's Fire (well, it's not punishable, now is it? >_>)
USmash, FTilt, and DSmash are beastly.. how does DSmash hit while you're in the air?!
Atleast Zelda's recovery sucks: too predictable and easily punished. Same with Din's Fire (well, it's not punishable, now is it? >_>)
Her Dsmash can do that from a dtilt. Her dtilt pops them slightly to combo into whatever. And it can lock as well, though I don't think jiggly needs to worry about the lock ^^
Basically, Dtilt is Zelda's secret ground move that comes ever so unexpectedly. She eliminates Jiggly's FSmash with this move with the ability to clank with it at during any frame before the last 5 frames of jiggly's fsmash, which is very of time ^^
Basically, Dtilt is Zelda's secret ground move that comes ever so unexpectedly. She eliminates Jiggly's FSmash with this move with the ability to clank with it at during any frame before the last 5 frames of jiggly's fsmash, which is very of time ^^
Myst007_teh_newb
Smash Journeyman
For a counterpick stage, I suggest Brinstar. The nature of Zelda's recovery will have her falling into the acid pit like crazy and the platforms are spaced so that Zelda's Usmash will just barely miss going through them. The unique thing about this stage is that you can approach from beneath Zelda, so Usmash and Fsmash aren't that huge of a deal anymore. Breaking the stage in half also annoys Zelda due to her short jump distance. Punishing her when she's in between the gaps is probably nothing too difficult. The stage is small, so fireball camping shouldn't be a problem, either. The stage should pretty much shut down Zelda's game, unless she has a reliable way to take out Jiggs from below. Dsmash comes to mind, but that should be nothing more than a minor nuisance with proper spacing and baiting.
I love using Jiggs on this stage because it's so safe to approach from underneath the stage and stale your moves on that set of bubbles that hold the stage together. Staling uairs, bairs, and dtilts keep your fairs fresh all match and screw around with everyone else because of the stage destruction it has as a side effect. Also, the acid gives you a safe spot to land if you want to attempt offstage rests. Even better, if your opponent gets knocked into the acid, it's pretty easy to predict their launch trajectory and rest them into the sky. Same goes for rollout if you're feeling bold. The only con I can see that this stage has is its lower ceiling, but that's nothing in comparison to the flow of awesome that this stage has to offer.
Brinstar for CP!
I love using Jiggs on this stage because it's so safe to approach from underneath the stage and stale your moves on that set of bubbles that hold the stage together. Staling uairs, bairs, and dtilts keep your fairs fresh all match and screw around with everyone else because of the stage destruction it has as a side effect. Also, the acid gives you a safe spot to land if you want to attempt offstage rests. Even better, if your opponent gets knocked into the acid, it's pretty easy to predict their launch trajectory and rest them into the sky. Same goes for rollout if you're feeling bold. The only con I can see that this stage has is its lower ceiling, but that's nothing in comparison to the flow of awesome that this stage has to offer.
Brinstar for CP!
MrEh
Smash Hero
Or just choose Norfair. Let me post that old diagram again...
Replace "Yoshi" with "Zelda" and "Eggs" with "Din's Fire." Also, imagine the blue circles are twice as large.
Replace "Yoshi" with "Zelda" and "Eggs" with "Din's Fire." Also, imagine the blue circles are twice as large.
Tarmogoyf
Smash Master
Or rainbow cruise. Zelda needs her positioning, and RC completely denies that. RC is terrible for zelda.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
But its her DI ability that causes the advantage for Jigglypuff in the air. She can bait better than most characters and so its pretty much a character ability. Also, she can pound in once in a while.
But only once in a while she can get a pound in. Zelda's a fortress against her and she has to approach, which makes it so much harder =( (Btw I love jiggs!, I love to train with her to get an understanding about going aerial.)
She can bait, but this is no simple routine =p a good zelda player will simply adapt. Zelda as a character has the answers to the majority of jiggs' moveset. Of course there are ways around but you need to play much much smarter than the zelda does.
I think it's 65:35 only because of jiggs' weight. If she were heavier with that moveset and physique this would be closer to even. Zelda has 9+ kill moves, most of which rack up good damage. I can simply use USmash to damage and trade with Utilt to kill you, which will kill you around 60+%. Utilt is fast and lingering, so going aerial against it is very tricky. In proportion to jiggs' weight, think of Zelda as a lighter but much much much faster version of Ike, with that kind of knockback and with lingering hitboxes. It's a match where she cannot afford to have any mistakes, and she needs to build momentum. Zelda can easily stop this momentum from even starting =(
If you're sweetspotted at all, you're dead =( That's with all her aerials except nair.
The majority of your aerials are also single hit, and can be spotdodged > possible hyphen usmash. Dair I will roll or SHairdodge to space my FSmash since it doesn't autocancel during the attack. Yes you can DI FSmash but just keep believing you'll DI out of it everytime, because you won't >.>, I can also space it so that the last hit hits you, and that is a non-DIable hit.
Baiting doesn't make the approach any easier, jiggs is constantly having to take risks against Zelda. Nothing is certain with a bait xD
She can bait, but this is no simple routine =p a good zelda player will simply adapt. Zelda as a character has the answers to the majority of jiggs' moveset. Of course there are ways around but you need to play much much smarter than the zelda does.
I think it's 65:35 only because of jiggs' weight. If she were heavier with that moveset and physique this would be closer to even. Zelda has 9+ kill moves, most of which rack up good damage. I can simply use USmash to damage and trade with Utilt to kill you, which will kill you around 60+%. Utilt is fast and lingering, so going aerial against it is very tricky. In proportion to jiggs' weight, think of Zelda as a lighter but much much much faster version of Ike, with that kind of knockback and with lingering hitboxes. It's a match where she cannot afford to have any mistakes, and she needs to build momentum. Zelda can easily stop this momentum from even starting =(
If you're sweetspotted at all, you're dead =( That's with all her aerials except nair.
The majority of your aerials are also single hit, and can be spotdodged > possible hyphen usmash. Dair I will roll or SHairdodge to space my FSmash since it doesn't autocancel during the attack. Yes you can DI FSmash but just keep believing you'll DI out of it everytime, because you won't >.>, I can also space it so that the last hit hits you, and that is a non-DIable hit.
Baiting doesn't make the approach any easier, jiggs is constantly having to take risks against Zelda. Nothing is certain with a bait xD