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Jigglypuff Matchup #4: Zelda

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Kataefi's doing well wnough without me, but I might add that, while jiggly has a good air game, Zelda has a good airdodge and has farore's wind. Jigglypuff CANNOT fall fast enough to catch up with zelda if zelda gets past her. for this, jiggly can't really do much aerially against zelda. I mean, she wins in the air, but it's not like she's adept or even good at keeping zelda there. For most of the game, Zelda will be on the ground, and jiggly HAS to rely on zelda making a mistake to get inside.

that's a matchup that's no less than 65:35
 

RoyalBlood

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I think Jiggly's Nair has a lingering hitbox :O
And drill-rest, though it's not a very viable strategy with Zelda due to U-smash, it still kills in the 60-70%? D= or maybe 80%? >_>
Also you have no idea how does Jigglypuff baits, she can do it really well and retreating aerials can easily trick you ;o
 

Brinzy

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Yeah, pretty much anyone with high aerial mobility is going to fare at least okayish against Zelda.
 

Kataefi

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Only okay if Zelda hasn't got a clue how to adapt to a situation and the opponent is somewhat heavy enough to take the damage if the bait goes wrong (which happens alot) =p

Jigglypuff can bait but it's a huge risk for her because of her weight. Zelda can put out a wall of jabs, which you won't get passed with SH approaches in front of Zelda. As jab has no cooldown, I can immediately hyphen usmash if you even think of hopping over the jab to attack. This shuts you down. This defence alone makes it difficult to bait her.

Nair is outprioritised by USmash, Utilt and Uair. The only viable way this could be used against Zelda is out of shield, and why Zelda would be so close to jiggs' shield is beyond me :?

If jiggs were heavier, she could survive longer and stale Zelda's moves a lot more... but as it is, I don't need to worry about my kill moves getting stale at all.

Jiggs rest is very risky against Zelda. It's high risk/reward, but I think the risk outweighs the reward. If jiggs messes up, it definitely death for her from Zelda the majority of cases.
 

Kataefi

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im thinkin 60:40 in favor of Zelda
Reasons would be great! =p

I can't really think of more reasons why I believe it's 65:35 unless any jiggs players have any more tricks she can do apart from baiting Zelda.
 

Tarmogoyf

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I think Jiggly's Nair has a lingering hitbox :O
And drill-rest, though it's not a very viable strategy with Zelda due to U-smash, it still kills in the 60-70%? D= or maybe 80%? >_>
Also you have no idea how does Jigglypuff baits, she can do it really well and retreating aerials can easily trick you ;o
Nair has a very long sexkick.

Drillrest doesn't work unless they trip, but rest kills at 65 with di.
 

Kataefi

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65% is good actually. But doesn't Zelda's LKs KO jiggs much sooner than rest will kill her? I believe LKs have a good chance of KOing Jiggs < 60% with DI or around the same mark, and they aren't as risky. On a side not, it's easier to sweetspot jiggs at the start of her jump because her bodysize inflates. She become a larger target.

Sorry that I keep replying so promptly =) ... im online so I might as well ^^

Nair is outprioritised by USmash, the only time you could use it safely against Zelda is OoS, and Zelda shouldn't be close to your shield in the first place. If you're using it as a SH approach, jab will knock you out, FSmash will disrupt you and up-angled Ftilt will flat out beat it. Hyphen USmash also beats it out as a SH approach.
 

sniperworm

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Kataefi, how does Zelda's Utilt kill Jiggs at 60 percent? Somehow that doesn't seem right to me (I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious what this takes into account).

Zelda's Usmash wrecks but a missed/blocked Usmash means that we're eating something in our face (aerial, DACUS, maybe even rest???). I think jab is the real killer though, it's tough for Jiggly to punish Zelda's jab.

But yeah, this seems uphill all the way for Jiggs. Good thing Jiggs is so good at baiting moves with all that aerial control or this fight would just be dumb.

I think that all electrical attacks have a very minor version of the effect of Zero Suit's down smash and forward special.
I'm thinking that this is the same as Olimar's yellow pikmin having extra stun.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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Really, I'm thinking 40:60 for Jiggs as well.

Yes, Zelda has major advantages against jiggs, but her smashes don't instantly shut us down. We can DI out of them to avoid the final knockback, and you can't use them all the time; there is space between the times you can use it.

Also, if we get you in the air and especially off stage, what can you do? Unless we are careless, there is no way we are getting in the position for uair, of the kicks. The best you can really do is use nair to try and get us away.

65:35 for Zelda is way too drastic, since Zelda doesn't automatically shut us down. The match is extremely hard, yes, but not an autowin.
 

Kataefi

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I said 60+%, but realistically over. But I think I'm getting too ahead of myself >.> . But if jiggs is at any moderately early percent I would gladly make this tradeoff. Zelda will naturally be kiling jiggs off very early.

What percentages (minus rest because that's too risky) will jiggs be killing Zelda at? FSmash shouldn't be klling her because Dtilt eliminates this, USmash might do but only if Zelda is stupid enough to be that close to jiggs and not utilising the range she has against her. Jiggs' dsmash is a little risky as well. I'm assuming jiggs is going to be killing with aerials? What percentages are these realistically going to kill zelda?

65:35 just means it's just slightly more than Zelda's advantage, which I can rightfully see myself (maybe I'm being too harsh?), but regardless it's by no means autowin for zelda. If jiggs had no baiting options it would be autowin 70:30 for zelda the majority of cases, but it's not like that. 65:35 just means zelda has slightly more of an advantage, but she's not a counter.

EDIT:: offstage your aerials shouldn't be hitting us. FW will fly passed you. It's better to wait on the stage for zelda to return.
@ sniperworm - yes jab is Zelda's secret move in this matchup. It stops a lot of aerial approaches coming at her in general and has no cooldown.
 

sniperworm

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What percentages (minus rest because that's too risky) will jiggs be killing Zelda at? FSmash shouldn't be klling her because Dtilt eliminates this, USmash might do but only if Zelda is stupid enough to be that close to jiggs and not utilising the range she has against her. Jiggs' dsmash is a little risky as well. I'm assuming jiggs is going to be killing with aerials? What percentages are these realistically going to kill zelda?
Jigglypuff's DACUS goes pretty far pretty quick. Getting hit by a Jigglypuff Usmash isn't that unrealistic (I have no idea if it's strong or not though).

Fsmash could hit Zelda as a mistake punisher (predicted spot dodges, air dodges, and recovery) but otherwise yeah...

Dsmash is slower than I thought and has lots of lag (but the knockback angle is cool) so I don't see a whole lot of hope here.

Jigglypuff's aerials don't seem to kill well based on how hard I've been hit by them.
 

Kataefi

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DACUS goes far, but why should this is be killing Zelda? If she's grounded DACUS will be stopped by FSmash, Ftilt, Dtilt and possibly her jab. If Zelda's falling, she has options. AD into the ground to stop a DACUS approach is very viable. AD gives -2 frame lag, couple that with frame 4 nayru's and dsmash and you have 2 attacks 6 frames long. If jiggs' DACUS is equal to or lower than 6 frames then this is a viable kill move when zelda is coming down from the ground, otherwise this shouldn't be killing her.

Dtilt is frame 5, jiggs' fsmash is significantly longer. Zelda can whiff an attack and possibly have enough time to bring out dtilt to save her skin against jiggs' fsmash. Dsmash is just, bad. I've never really seen a jiggs use this move a lot at all. Jiggs has alternative and better ground moves.

Jiggs can only really go aerial on Zelda, so aerial moves will greatly stale. She won't really get to Zelda quick enough before FW gains invisibility frames, despite her good aerial speed. She might, but it's unrealistic.

If jiggs is given the benefit of baiting as part of her character traits, then Zelda's natural passive-aggressive style should mean tracking and understanding these baits are inherent and part of her own character traits just as well. So jiggs can bait, Zelda can track these baits and adapt.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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Really, I think you underestimate Jiggs too much. You do know she is a good character, I'll give you that, but you assume that jiggs is less than she can be.

So, Why don't aerials work on Zelda off stage? No, its NOT more effective to wait for her to come back. If jiggs doesn't fight offstage, then she misses out on a lot of her effectiveness. Obviously, its not good to do it all the time. Also, dispite the hitbox it has, Jiggs can edgehog FW quite effectively if the Zelda keeps hitting right on the edge while jiggs is still on stage. If she doesn't then free hit.

When Jiggs is edge guarding effectively, she will be close to her opponent. I've hit Zelda out of FW many times, and she really should be close enough to do it. Its pretty hard to make 3 or more moves to become stale, so as long as she can use bair, fair, and dair, she should be fine. Really she should use more.

DACUS is more useful than you think. Why would a jiggs use it on zelda if she was just standing there? If she was coming back onto the stage, or coming down to the ground from being hit upwards, then it becomes useful.

If you want, one of us can do a few wi-fi matches with you. You've said yourself, the jiggs you've played wasn't exellent or anything. Some of this stuff you just have to see.
 

Kataefi

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I'd love to fight a jiggs ^^ are there any UK players? (Though wi-fi in general doesn't really say much =X ) I'm not underestimating jiggs! I'm simply saying FW can go through her offstage offence if jiggs isn't fast enough, and so in this case it would be better to wait near the ledge.

How many frames is jiggs' DACUS? If it's above 6 frames or below it's a viable approach on Zelda when she's coming from above, but otherwise AD nayru's and uncharged dsmash will beat it. I'm just trying to be objective =( I apologise in advance if I'm being so adamant on the 65:35 - I think it's this score but only AT WORST for jiggs. No one's really argued anything against it apart from saying 'I think that's too dramatic, it should be 60:40'.

Where are the other zeldas mains?
 

RoyalBlood

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Actually is not about fighting a good jiggly that much, it's about fighting one close to your skill.
You cannot say that Jiggly won't land a F-smash? was it since Zelda has d-tilt, it's like saying Zelda will never use Din's Fire against Ness, that type of mentality is really bad.
You're subestimating Jiggs kind of badly >:l You say U-smash stops Nair but it's not like the Zelda can read minds and will automatically U-smash, which leads to baits as retreating aerials =O
I'd say 60:40 Zelda seems Ok
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Okay let's look at how the match will play out.

The standard stage is probably going to have at least one platform which means jigglypuff's rollout is all but useless. on the few stages with no platforms, zelda can pretty easily yank jiggly out of rollout with Fsmaash or parry it with Dtilt and follow up with anything since jiggly doesn't have a single move that can connect at the range she'll be stopped from Dtilt, even if she DOES react in time.

Jigglypuff WILL be approaching. at most distances, Zelda can pretty safely spam din's. Sure jiggly can avoid it, but it's not hurting zelda in any way, the worst zelda can do is break even if jiggly consistently dodges, and it only takes one connection of din's for zelda to get the damage advantage. And it's not like jigglypuff can ever cross that comfort zone safely. She's the slowest character on the ground and her air speed, while the highest in the game, is still not threateningly fast, so zelda has a LARGE comfort zone for din's. And once jiggly DOES get close, she has ZERO moves that will outrange zelda. zero. And her ground game is just awful. maybe she has a good grab range, but it's still not good enough to get past zelda's defensive game and zelda is notoriously one of the hardest, if not THE hardest charcter in the game to grab. not to mention jiggly's ground game has very little versitility. I'd go as far as to say thatl, aginats a good zelda, jigglypuff should fail at least 19 times out of 20 attempting to breech zelda's defenses from the ground.

In the air she doesn't fair much better. Jiggly has better approaching options from the air, but zelda has Usmash. whatever defenses zelda had against jiggly's ground approach, her Usmash is better than all of them at stopping aerial approaches. it lasts too long to spotdodge and outprioiritizes any aproach jiggly could make from any angle in the air (except those so low that zelda should be defending as if jiggly was on the ground.) Sure you can DI out of usmash sometimes, not often, but sometimes. but even then, we still win. you don't take as much damage as you might have, but you take some, and zelda takes none. we win the exchange.

Jigglypuff HAS to rely on zelda making a mistake, which is not a good thing already, but the problem is, jiggly CANNOT keep pressure up once she DOES connect. let's assume zelda makes a mistake and jiggly gets in. well.... so what? Jiggly gets one hit in and simply cannot apply pressure. Jiggly has awful fall speed and awful aerial acceleration which means that, once she DOES pop zelda in the air, it's relatively easy for zelda to avoid jiggly. Not that the air was all that safe a place for her anyway. While jiggly's aerials are all around more reliable in the match than zelda's, all of zelda's can kill jiggly at about 60 damage. And you might say "it's really unlikely that zelda's going to hit jigglypuff with one of those in the air" I say it's no less likely than jigglypuff actually breeching zelda's defenses while zelda is grounded, and you insist you'll be doing that often enough for it to matter...

So looking at that, I mean zelda's just got the massive advantage strategically in the matchup and that's BEFORE you consider their statistics as far as weight and KO power. Jigglypuff has almost no viable kill moves against zelda. Rest kills at low damage, but it's hard to set up for and a miss is JUST as deadly to jigglypuff as a hit is for zelda. Jigglypuff's Fsmash is slow and her Dsmash doesn't have the range to hit zelda so, realistically, you can't rely on those connecting unless you get lucky and zelda is making some serious mistakes. even then, they don't kill half as well as what zelda can do to you. Rollout is counterable, as said earlier and is hardly reliable even without that consideration. DACUS is not good. USmash has okay kill potential, but even with it's slide given by DACUS, it's still pretty easy for zelda just to plain old outprioritize.

Zelda on the other hand, can kill jigglypuff with probably at least 9 moves at damages lower than jiggly could conceivably KO zelda. That's pretty bad considering the fact that Zelda will be doing more damage and have an easier time landing attacks.

Jigglypuff's got one thing on zelda, really, and that's that at certain damages, without good DI, Jigglypuff can use fair to chase zelda too far away for her to recover... but, while that's doable, it won't happen often enough to save you.

Jigglypuff should not be winning this one, it's simply to hard for her to connect and too hard for her to kill especially considering how easy it is for zelda to just whack jiggly off the screen. as long as zelda remains cool and grounded, which is NOT hard to do, this matchup is cake.

I'm not saying this from a purely Zelda standpoint either; Jiggly was my main in melee and I'm still pretty compitent with her in brawl. I've experienced this matchup from both sides and I say zelda clearly has a large advantage. 60:40 is too conservative, it's 65:35 at best. probably no worse than 70:30, but more likely to be 70:30 than to be 60:40
 

Veril

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What percentages (minus rest because that's too risky) will jiggs be killing Zelda at?
Don't ever rule out rest. Its possible to SDI out of your forward smash into a rest which you can't prevent in any way. The same is true of your neutral air. If you try to hyphen smash into Jiggs on the ground, it can be rested. A poorly spaced u-tilt can be rested. A perfect shielded dash attack can be rested.

Rest can be landed, but your other aerials aren't vulnerable, and either is your up-smash. And I hate Din's fire. Unless the Zelda uses it next to jiggs, in which case, again, free rest.

60 : 40 Zelda's favor IMO.
 

Kataefi

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But it can save her safely though from jiggs' fsmash. Zelda doesn't have to be a mind reader, she just needs to track their movements and anticipate, this is what she does best.

I know it's a different matchup, but ness limits Zelda's projectile a lot. So does GnW. I know it doesn't make the projectile useless, but if they see it coming they should (in theory of the matchup) be using their absorbers.

I've said my piece. I'm not gonna fight like crazy just for an extra 5% on the matchup, so whatever you guys are content with I'm very happy ^^ But when we discuss jiggs on the zelda boards it may be slightly more.

EDIT:: We'll, if you guys get rest, we get lightning kicks. I wonder which move is less risky?
 

Metatitan

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I'll probly stay outta this one but pound tends to do well against zelda and her recovery is fairly easy to punish. She ***** jiggs on the ground so i'd say 60:40 or 65:35
 

The_Jiggernaut

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*Wall of text*
You mention maining jiggs in the past and even using her now. However, you make tonnes of faulty assumptions about Jiggs' gameplay and horrible generilizations throught this post. If you hadn't mentioned that you play jiggs, I would have thought you never played one.

No good Jiggly spammes rollout, and no platforms do not make it more or less useful. Rollout is most deadly when used coming back on the stage. This way, you can actually chose to land on the platforms or on the main stage. This makes not one place safe.

You say that after Jiggs gets a hit that she can't follow up. You are saying that jiggs can't combo her opponents, though I do so all the time. If she couldn't land multiple hits, but only relied on one hit, then had to back off then she wouldn't be very good. I have no idea how you can say she can't follow up, even against zelda, and claim to play as her.

You said that 19 out of 20 times jiggs should fail to get past Zelda's deffences. This is exedingly ignorant. This isn't 64, there is such a thing as an airdodge. I don't know what kinda crap jiggs you've been beating up with your zelda, but I assure you, a good jiggs will not fail 95% of the time.

Ok, DACUS does not suck. /story.

Zelda killing at 60% sounds good for a player with crap DI who waits for you to fully charge all your smashes.

I'm surprised at just how wrong this post is, and coming from a Jiggs player.

Really, I'd be willing to do some matches against you or Kataefi, if you want to see how this match would really play out.
 

Kataefi

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I'm only going to fight UK jiggs players if you have some ^^ I'd love to fight them!

If you're going to punish with dacus I will airdodge into the ground and immediately use nayru's for invincibility and to attack you. The total is 6 frames for Zelda to achieve this. Dacus and jiggs' usmash in general is more than 6 frames long. Dacus against Zelda is less effective (but still good).

Airdodging is punishable with Usmash. USmash lasts longer than jiggs' airdodge.

You must be wary of Zelda also. I would go as far as saying she has the most killing potential in the entire game. Lightning kicks will kill you at 60%, Uair will kill you earlier, all with DI. Utilt will kill you at 60+% (realistically 70+% with good DI). Jiggs is floaty and kills easily vertically. Zelda is a beastly vertical killer.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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You mention maining jiggs in the past and even using her now. However, you make tonnes of faulty assumptions about Jiggs' gameplay and horrible generilizations throught this post. If you hadn't mentioned that you play jiggs, I would have thought you never played one.
no. you're just being overly supportive of your main

No good Jiggly spammes rollout, and no platforms do not make it more or less useful. Rollout is most deadly when used coming back on the stage. This way, you can actually chose to land on the platforms or on the main stage. This makes not one place safe.
no idiot is going to get hit by that. IT might protect her recovery (though it doesn't have good priority so it's easy enough to smack her out of, and I think din's might cancel it mid path) but even so, you're playng against incredibly reckless individuals if using rollout to recover is actually killing them. And, I was commenting on jigglypuff's lack of reliable kill moves. rollout isn't effective as a kill move? then there you go... that only furthers my point


You say that after Jiggs gets a hit that she can't follow up. You are saying that jiggs can't combo her opponents, though I do so all the time. If she couldn't land multiple hits, but only relied on one hit, then had to back off then she wouldn't be very good. I have no idea how you can say she can't follow up, even against zelda, and claim to play as her.
No, I'm saying Zelda is floaty and light, the hardest type of character to combo, and she has a very long airdodge and a taleport as well as a decent priority nair AND an invincible on stratup Nayru's to end aerial combos and get her to the stage without allowing jiggly to follow up. jiggly should only be "comboing" zelda at very low damages, especially since zelda's so hard to get inside that jiggly can't really be a choser when it comes to HOW to initiate contact with zelda. a lot of the time she won't lend herself favourably to follow ups.


You said that 19 out of 20 times jiggs should fail to get past Zelda's deffences. This is exedingly ignorant. This isn't 64, there is such a thing as an airdodge. I don't know what kinda crap jiggs you've been beating up with your zelda, but I assure you, a good jiggs will not fail 95% of the time.
Zelda's Usmash completely destroys Jiggly's airdodge, so, yes, she should fail over 90% of the time

Ok, DACUS does not suck. /story.
you seem to enjoy saying things and then not backing them up. and also twisting what I said. I never said that it sucked, just that it wasn't amazing. it's still not amazingly strong and it's not too difficult for zelda to counter without even moving.


Zelda killing at 60% sounds good for a player with crap DI who waits for you to fully charge all your smashes.
or getting hit by any aerial.. seriously, how are you goung to live from a zelda uair... you aren't, it's that simple.

I'm surprised at just how wrong this post is, and coming from a Jiggs player.
I should be the one saying that, though I'm sure favouritism is clearly clouding your judgement

Really, I'd be willing to do some matches against you or Kataefi, if you want to see how this match would really play out.
wifi is a poor judge, you should know that. besides, my connection would be laggy to you. I'm sure.
 

illinialex24

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no idiot is going to get hit by that. IT might protect her recovery (though it doesn't have good priority so it's easy enough to smack her out of, and I think din's might cancel it mid path) but even so, you're playng against incredibly reckless individuals if using rollout to recover is actually killing them. And, I was commenting on jigglypuff's lack of reliable kill moves. rollout isn't effective as a kill move? then there you go... that only furthers my point
No it doesn't. Rollout was never really that commonly used (Bowyer never used it), its not considered a good move. It doesn't change anything.

No, I'm saying Zelda is floaty and light, the hardest type of character to combo, and she has a very long airdodge and a taleport as well as a decent priority nair AND an invincible on stratup Nayru's to end aerial combos and get her to the stage without allowing jiggly to follow up. jiggly should only be "comboing" zelda at very low damages, especially since zelda's so hard to get inside that jiggly can't really be a choser when it comes to HOW to initiate contact with zelda. a lot of the time she won't lend herself favourably to follow ups.
As far as bair chains go and her uair, light and floaty is the best. She can combo Bowser well with fairs but it prevents them from falling too low once their second jump is gone. I like light and floaty opponents.

Zelda's Usmash completely destroys Jiggly's airdodge, so, yes, she should fail over 90% of the time
Thats why you don't air-dodge on the opponent... You bait with a backwards DI while approaching an air-dodge so U-smash doesn't hit or bair so it barely taps them or do a falling or rising pound so U-smash can't really be used.

or getting hit by any aerial.. seriously, how are you goung to live from a zelda uair... you aren't, it's that simple.
You aren't going to get hit by a Zelda uair. One of the easiest to read moves in the game, one air dodge and its punishing time.

wifi is a poor judge, you should know that. besides, my connection would be laggy to you. I'm sure.
Of course it is.
 

-Mars-

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No it doesn't. Rollout was never really that commonly used (Bowyer never used it), its not considered a good move. It doesn't change anything.



As far as bair chains go and her uair, light and floaty is the best. She can combo Bowser well with fairs but it prevents them from falling too low once their second jump is gone. I like light and floaty opponents.



Thats why you don't air-dodge on the opponent... You bait with a backwards DI while approaching an air-dodge so U-smash doesn't hit or bair so it barely taps them or do a falling or rising pound so U-smash can't really be used.



You aren't going to get hit by a Zelda uair. One of the easiest to read moves in the game, one air dodge and its punishing time.



Of course it is.
So you don't kill with rollout.....what exactly do you kill Zelda with then?

Zelda has invincibilty frames on Naryus, there's going to be very few occassions where you put a decent string on Zelda.

No Zelda player is going to sit there like an idiot whiffing on usmashes. I can jab spam against Jiggs' aerial approaches far easier than using usmash. Jab has next to no cooldown time.......bait that.

Uair is easier to land than rest or something and nearly as deadly. Jiggs is so floaty, that baiting an airdodge is very easy. You really don't have a choice but to airdodge with Zelda jumping from underneath you anyways.
 

illinialex24

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So you don't kill with rollout.....what exactly do you kill Zelda with then?

Zelda has invincibilty frames on Naryus, there's going to be very few occassions where you put a decent string on Zelda.

No Zelda player is going to sit there like an idiot whiffing on usmashes. I can jab spam against Jiggs' aerial approaches far easier than using usmash. Jab has next to no cooldown time.......bait that.

Uair is easier to land than rest or something and nearly as deadly. Jiggs is so floaty, that baiting an airdodge is very easy. You really don't have a choice but to airdodge with Zelda jumping from underneath you anyways.
Uair is not easy to land. And not very useful although deadly if it lands. And yes you do. Its called dair. Beats the longer startup of the move.

Fair can dominate a Zelda. F-smash and DACUS can also kill her well. Dash attack can get her if she's landing as well.

And if your gonna start jabbing when I approach, guess what. Your getting *****. Pound goes through a lot and the issue is the shield for pound. If your not gonna shield, the fortress is gone.
 

Kataefi

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Zelda's uair can hit. She can bait you into airdodging and then use it after your invincibility goes. It's easily telegraphed - Yes you know it's coming, but you don't know when it's coming. Zelda players know how to land this move and not use it blindly hoping it will hit.

Nayru's breaks a lot of combos. What is the hitstun on jiggs' aerials? Also what are the frames of jiggs' aerials if I may ask ^^ and if Zelda is at 40+%??, can she DI away from jiggs to avoid further combos??

I just don't understand this whole baiting aspect of the matchup. Zelda tracks people's moves, jiggs is no different. The jiggs player is forced to change their style in this matchup and bait, yes. But Zelda can be reactive and adaptive enough to not fall for these baits, which would actually shut down jiggs if Zelda's got herself firmly rooted to the ground, as ultimately, Zelda's moveset is enough to override jiggs' moveset. You say jiggs has baiting as part of her character ability, I say Zelda has the ability to adapt to these baits and react accordingly as part of the passive-aggressive nature of her character.

I do apologise for being so frontal about this, but I'm still seeing this as slightly more than advantaged for Zelda, but she's no counter by any means. I'm NOT underestimating jiggs at all, I know she's a good character so don't think because she's low tier she's doomed to have bad matchups with everyone. I'm just trying to be as objective as I can.

EDIT:: I've just tested Zelda's jab against Jigglypuff's pound. I can actually confirm that her jab beats it out =O
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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yes I mean how does saying "rollout is a bad move" NOT validate my point that jiggz has a hard time killing zelda when it's one of her only KO moves.

yes, you neglected to mention any response jiggly has for zelda's evasive abilities.

Marsulas is right about not whiffing Usmashes like an idiot and having a jab jiggly has a lot of trouble with.

Uair is not hard to land on stages with platforms and NOT hard to land on the GIANT FLOATING BALL. something airborne as much as jiggly will get hit by that attack more than a few times. oh, and it can be used to destroy any jigglypuff using rollout to recover... and it's safe when doing so.... and your dair just INVITES a uair since it lasts so long, you fall so slow, and zelda's uair has more range

as for pound vs jab... your pound is slow enough that our ZERO COOLDOWN jab will lead into a fsmash that'll beat out your jab
 

illinialex24

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Rollout was never a valid kill move for her. Play a Jigglypuff that doesn't stale fair and it kills early, and she can also kill early with an F-smash and dash attack. First off, a dair is if the opponent is directly below you. It screws with uair. If you are a fair amount of above her, you DI out of the way (her aerial DI is a lot better) and get out of the way.
 

Kataefi

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Sonic I just tested pound against Zelda's jab, and her jab beats it out consistently, everyime.
 

MrEh

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or getting hit by any aerial.. seriously, how are you goung to live from a zelda uair... you aren't, it's that simple.
Only viable way to survive is if Jiggs counterpicks Japes. Zelda's Uair is about...the same strength as Bowser's I believe? She might be able to survive up to 90% on that stage. Other then that, yeah. She'll die if it hits. And she'll die early.


Bowser's uair can hit. He can bait you into airdodging and then use it after your invincibility goes. It's easily telegraphed - Yes you know it's coming, but you don't know when it's coming. Bowser players know how to land this move and not use it blindly hoping it will hit.
Fixed.

It sounds crazy, but for for a second there I thought you were talking about Bowser. Slow, very telegraphed, but freakishly powerful Uair. Both Uairs are utilized the same way. :p


your dair just INVITES a uair since it lasts so long, you fall so slow, and zelda's uair has more range
I think the Dair is used more out of a shorthop or out of a shield. I don't think Jiggs should ever use the Dair from a a high enough position for you to use the Uair. At medium ranges though, just Usmash.


If not, this'll become a ledge-stall matchup.
At least this is more civil then the Yoshi matchup. And I mean waaay more civil.
 

Kataefi

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I just did. A falling pound trades with her jab but only if jiggs aims for Zelda's head. However, I found more results that benefit Zelda.

Jab prevents her SH approaches and trades with pound. If jiggs does pound, Zelda has a high enough frame window for her jab to laglessly connect into USmash, which outprioritises jiggs' pound. This was consistent =X

EDIT:: Zelda's uair is stronger than bowser's!
 

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Only viable way to survive is if Jiggs counterpicks Japes. Zelda's Uair is about...the same strength as Bowser's I believe? She might be able to survive up to 90% on that stage. Other then that, yeah. She'll die if it hits. And she'll die early.
Zelda's is stronger, has more range, less startup and can't be parried (smaller hitbox though, and less duration)



Fixed.

It sounds crazy, but for for a second there I thought you were talking about Bowser. Slow, very telegraphed, but freakishly powerful Uair. Both Uairs are utilized the same way. :p
similarly, true



I think the Dair is used more out of a shorthop or out of a shield. I don't think Jiggs should ever use the Dair from a a high enough position for you to use the Uair. At medium ranges though, just Usmash.
I agree, but some jiggly main claimed that jiggly's dair was a viable way to counter our Uair, I was merely stating the horrible inaccuracy.
 

illinialex24

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I just did. A falling pound trades with her jab but only if jiggs aims for Zelda's head. However, I found more results that benefit Zelda.

Jab prevents her SH approaches and trades with pound. If jiggs does pound, Zelda has a high enough frame window for her jab to laglessly connect into USmash, which outprioritises jiggs' pound. This was consistent =X

EDIT:: Zelda's uair is stronger than bowser's!
Ok, I agree with 65-35. Lol, I thought Jab would beat out 90% of what Zelda could do unless she shielded. But now this is looking like one of her worst matchups, mainly because Zelda can Din's Fire when Jigglypuff is far and as long as she stays on the ground, dominate. She just has to shield whenever Jigglypuff approaches and wait for her option and jab if Jigglypuff comes close....

I agree, but some jiggly main claimed that jiggly's dair was a viable way to counter our Uair, I was merely stating the horrible inaccuracy.
Ummmm how is that a horrible inaccuracy. If your at a small range between the two, dair counters any chance at uair. At mid or greater ranges, you DI away from Zelda and make sure you don't get in her uair range because her DI ability is greater. Sounds pretty accurate huh.
 

Kataefi

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Ok, I agree with 65-35. Lol, I thought Jab would beat out 90% of what Zelda could do unless she shielded. But now this is looking like one of her worst matchups, mainly because Zelda can Din's Fire when Jigglypuff is far and as long as she stays on the ground, dominate. She just has to shield whenever Jigglypuff approaches and wait for her option and jab if Jigglypuff comes close....

^^ I knew you jiggs players would come to your senses! =D

/joke >.>

In all honesty, there's a lot of misconception surrounding jiggs and zelda because not of a lot of players pick them up and use them. But in this matchup I really honestly think Zelda has it a lot easier than some other characters on jigglypuff because of the inherent nature of her moveset being all high-priority and lingering.
 

illinialex24

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^^ I knew you jiggs players would come to your senses! =D

/joke >.>

In all honesty, there's a lot of misconception surrounding jiggs and zelda because not of a lot of players pick them up and use them. But in this matchup I really honestly think Zelda has it a lot easier than some other characters on jigglypuff because of the inherent nature of her moveset being all high-priority and lingering.
I changed my mind after I realized the best possible scenario with pound, which is my favorite move in this matchup. ****.
 
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