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Jigglypuff Matchup #4: Zelda

Maniclysane

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Dins fire: Airdodge mofo
Nayru Love: Rest the ***** during cool down
fair/bair: Lol
uair: Jigglypuff shouldn't be above her opponent
Dair: If you get spiked as Jigglypuff you shouldn't play her.
usmash: Don't be above your opponent, or drill as an approach I guess

65:35 Jigglypuffs advantage. Nair chaining her recovery is lol.
 

illinialex24

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Dins fire: Airdodge mofo
Nayru Love: Rest the ***** during cool down
fair/bair: Lol
uair: Jigglypuff shouldn't be above her opponent
Dair: If you get spiked as Jigglypuff you shouldn't play her.

65:35 Jigglypuffs advantage. You don't even need to Drillrest her she's so floaty and slow.
Wait what? How are you going to get her in the air. If she is in the air, this numbers right, but she dominates on the ground....
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I'd stay 65:35

not 70:30.... not because zelda doesn't deserve it against jiggly, but because jiggly has a few viable counterpick stages that'll really help her... but if she doesn't get one of those stages, zelda should will every time
 

MrEh

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EDIT:: Zelda's uair is stronger than bowser's!
I was thinking it was either even or Zelda's was a bit stronger. Poor Bowser...><


(smaller hitbox though, and less duration
Zelda's hitbox is smaller then Bowser's? I mean, I know that Bowser's Uair has a deceptively wide hitbox, but I always assumed that Zelda's hitbox was taller.


I agree, but some jiggly main claimed that jiggly's dair was a viable way to counter our Uair, I was merely stating the horrible inaccuracy.
Haha, using the Dair to counter the Uair is silly. It can interrupt it at close enough ranges, but if I were Jiggs, I would be staying the hell away from Zelda's head period.


^^ I knew you jiggs players would come to your senses! =D
Of course they'll reach a good consensus. They're not the Yoshi boards. XD


In all honesty, there's a lot of misconception surrounding jiggs and zelda because not of a lot of players pick them up and use them.
Underused characters FTW.


Ok. Lets focus more on stages now. Best CP stages for both characters.
Rainbow Cruise is awesome. Also, you guys know it's coming....

NORFAIR!!!!
 

Kataefi

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Mr Eh! I saw your newer matches with DarkMusician when he was Zelda and you were Bowser! Really good matches! Though DM actually goes mental with Zelda sometimes. I never knew Zelda could do well against him, I personally struggle with Bowser =(

A good CP against Zelda with jiggs would be Japes so she won't KO vertically as well due to the high ceiling. The water makes it difficult for her to recover well, and you can use your Fairs and other aerials to kill her easily horizontally. But she'll be an absolute ***** to you if she camps the middle bottom platform or camps in general.

Rainbow cruise is good. I'm thinking frigate might be good. Jiggs can hold out against her when the stage is normal, but when it flips Zelda's a sitting duck in the air so jiggs can go on the offensive.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Zelda's hitbox is smaller then Bowser's? I mean, I know that Bowser's Uair has a deceptively wide hitbox, but I always assumed that Zelda's hitbox was taller.
oh I KNOW zelda's reaches farther, but bowser's starts lower on him

Rainbow Cruise is awesome. Also, you guys know it's coming....

NORFAIR!!!!
norfair for jiggz? it's not a bad stage for zelda really.

and jiggly has to rely extensively on punishing zelda's recovery, so pick lylat, Halberd or delfino to take away our ability to sweatspot.

I'd even say Brinstar, but I think Zelda uses the layout pretty well against jigglypuff otherwise, and the acid will kill... as will close ledges
 

illinialex24

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Mr Eh! I saw your newer matches with DarkMusician when he was Zelda and you were Bowser! Really good matches! Though DM actually goes mental with Zelda sometimes. I never knew Zelda could do well against him, I personally struggle with Bowser =(

A good CP against Zelda with jiggs would be Japes so she won't KO vertically as well due to the high ceiling. The water makes it difficult for her to recover well, and you can use your Fairs and other aerials to kill her easily horizontally. But she'll be an absolute ***** to you if she camps the middle bottom platform or camps in general.

Rainbow cruise is good. I'm thinking frigate might be good. Jiggs can hold out against her when the stage is normal, but when it flips Zelda's a sitting duck in the air so jiggs can go on the offensive.
Yeah, I'm thinking Frigate and Japes. How about what should Jigglypuff ban? I mean, a U-smash at Corneria kills so I am thinking that. Same with an F-smash on the bottom half of the stage.
 

Maniclysane

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You can't DACUS safely really any opponents if they are solely on the ground besides G&W (he isn't safe but its safer than really any other approach).

She can jab it or shield to F-smash or U-smash.

Ok. Lets focus more on stages now. Best CP stages for both characters.
DACUS behind her then punish her usmash with a fsmash, or rest.
 

Kataefi

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Zelda's goes crazy on Luigi's. Best to ban that. Jiggs actually has ZERO approaches on Zelda if she camps near a pillar on Luigi's. Her smashes last hideously long if she hits a pillar with them.

Corneria as well, jiggs is too light to take Zelda there.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Yeah, I'm thinking Frigate and Japes. How about what should Jigglypuff ban? I mean, a U-smash at Corneria kills so I am thinking that. Same with an F-smash on the bottom half of the stage.
Zelda loves platforms too, Battlefield is one of her better stages, and brinstar has a favourable layout and VERY close edges as well... but I'd say corneria is the most threatening in that respect.
 

illinialex24

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Zelda loves platforms too, Battlefield is one of her better stages, and brinstar has a favourable layout and VERY close edges as well... but I'd say corneria is the most threatening in that respect.
Ok cool. So now lets go back to the matchup, discuss whatever you want.

Stage to Ban: Luigi's Mansion
Counterpick Stages: Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon

Cool. That still leaves a terrible Corneria but whatever.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Zelda's goes crazy on Luigi's. Best to ban that. Jiggs actually has ZERO approaches on Zelda if she camps near a pillar on Luigi's. Her smashes last hideously long if she hits a pillar with them.

Corneria as well, jiggs is too light to take Zelda there.
Even so, Luigi's begins to hurt us when it's ceilings start protecting jiggly from getting KOd.... but it's a small price to pay for being a defensive juggernaut there I suppose.


Jiggly has SEVERAL viable counterpicks:

Lylat Cruise, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Battleship Halberd and Delfino Plaza are all good.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Yeah I changed the ban stage from Corneria to Luigi's. It looks nasty.
I'd be sure to consider both actually, you've gotta know the zelda. an offensive zelda will get more use out of corneria, a patient, defensive zelda will be nearly unstoppable on mansion.... you've gotta be knowledgeable if you can.

either way, Zelda will have the other stage, rgardless of which you ban, and battlefield to wreak havoc as well.
 

illinialex24

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I'd be sure to consider both actually, you've gotta know the zelda. an offensive zelda will get more use out of corneria, a patient, defensive zelda will be nearly unstoppable on mansion.... you've gotta be knowledgeable if you can.

either way, Zelda will have the other stage, rgardless of which you ban, and battlefield to wreak havoc as well.
Yeah, but I think I'd go Luigi's because it plays into her style for the match. Ouch. An even worse time getting in her defense....
 

MrEh

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Mr Eh! I saw your newer matches with DarkMusician when he was Zelda and you were Bowser! Really good matches! Though DM actually goes mental with Zelda sometimes. I never knew Zelda could do well against him, I personally struggle with Bowser =(
DarkMusician's Zelda is total ****. Best Zelda in Hawaii. :p
If you're struggling with Bowser, I would suggest this...

USMASH! MOAR USMASH! XD


oh I KNOW zelda's reaches farther, but bowser's starts lower on him
Oh, I see what you mean now. :)


norfair for jiggz? it's not a bad stage for zelda really.
I think all my problems can be solved with Norfair.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Yeah, but I think I'd go Luigi's because it plays into her style for the match. Ouch. An even worse time getting in her defense....
you should see what it does to characters who rely on projectiles to beat her, those pillars REJECT most projectiles.


and yes mr. eh, your hitbox is probably slightly taller and considerably wider.
 

-Mars-

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Wow, I just gained total respect for Jigglypuff mains, they're not completely biased towards their character.
 

illinialex24

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Wow, I just gained total respect for Jigglypuff mains, they're not completely biased towards their character.
Yeah, I try to go truly neutral. I really look at the facts and I realize that there is bias, but I ignore when deciding the matchup. If its on the line, I might go my way, but I try to have it play the smallest role as possible. Thanks.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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no. you're just being overly supportive of your main.
I could say the same to you.

no idiot is going to get hit by that. IT might protect her recovery (though it doesn't have good priority so it's easy enough to smack her out of, and I think din's might cancel it mid path) but even so, you're playng against incredibly reckless individuals if using rollout to recover is actually killing them. And, I was commenting on jigglypuff's lack of reliable kill moves. rollout isn't effective as a kill move? then there you go... that only furthers my point
I've hit many people with rollout, and people usally underestimate its power. Maybe you don't get my point. Starting to rollout on the ground against a zelda is stupid, but is can hit her, if you use it intellegently. But yes, it is unrealiable as a kill move.

No, I'm saying Zelda is floaty and light, the hardest type of character to combo, and she has a very long airdodge and a taleport as well as a decent priority nair AND an invincible on stratup Nayru's to end aerial combos and get her to the stage without allowing jiggly to follow up. jiggly should only be "comboing" zelda at very low damages, especially since zelda's so hard to get inside that jiggly can't really be a choser when it comes to HOW to initiate contact with zelda. a lot of the time she won't lend herself favourably to follow ups.
Floaty characters aren't harder to follow up on as much as you have to take a different approch to follow up. Yes, these methods are less effective, but you can do them.

Zelda's Usmash completely destroys Jiggly's airdodge, so, yes, she should fail over 90% of the time
Because Jiggs is going to be staying above you through the whole air dodge.

you seem to enjoy saying things and then not backing them up. and also twisting what I said. I never said that it sucked, just that it wasn't amazing. it's still not amazingly strong and it's not too difficult for zelda to counter without even moving
.

How do I not back things up? The only time was with the DACUS, but I thought that should be obvious and I explained why it was good in my previous post.

or getting hit by any aerial.. seriously, how are you goung to live from a zelda uair... you aren't, it's that simple.
As illinialex said, we just won't get hit by it.

I should be the one saying that, though I'm sure favouritism is clearly clouding your judgement
No, I'm not being baised here. You've got me all wrong. You are making outragious claims about the matchup, and they are all in favor of your main. I believe you are the one with a bais. I'm just giving the other side of the matchup. This matchup is deffenently not 70:30


wifi is a poor judge, you should know that. besides, my connection would be laggy to you. I'm sure.
Wifi is a much better judge than all of your "In theory" stuff you are claiming. Even with a bit of lag (which would favor Zelda) I would do much better than your hypothetical match you've made.

The thing about this matchup is that on paper, it would seem that jiggs is screwed, but really she can fend fairly well. You'd have to do an actual match to see. I'm not saying this isn't a tough matchup, because I know it is. Its just not as bad as failing to approch 95% of the time.

Really, we should wait until PND responds, because he has much more experence with this matchup than any of us. One of his crew memebers is a Zelda main, so...

I say that it is 60:40 for Zelda, but I'd be willing to accept 65:35 if thats what the verdict was. But, could I request that someone does one set of matches before it is finalized? I really must stress that its not as bad as you'd think in a real match.
 

Kataefi

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Lag doesn't favour Zelda =(

Try recovering with farore's in lag. Offstage she's actually dead. All you see her do is spam FSmash and USmash on the ground and teleport when away. That's all she can do in lag =(
 

Villi

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I'll play Jiggzes on WiFi. I dun give a **** about lag as long as you're not downloading a bunch of porn torrents while we play.

Plz use lots of rollout. It hurts me. xD
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Lag doesn't favour Zelda =(

Try recovering with farore's in lag. Offstage she's actually dead. All you see her do is spam FSmash and USmash on the ground and teleport when away. That's all she can do in lag =(
Zelda on lag....... good luck trying to sweetspot a lightning kick, lightning stomp or Uair -_-
 

-Mars-

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I love how everyone claims their character sucks with lag. Please, Zelda probably benefits from lag if anything. I guarantee you it hampers Jiggs more than Zelda.
 

Kataefi

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- She won't sweetspot
- She won't recover well at all
- She'll whiff tons of smashes trying to be all defensive

She's one tough ***** if these don't hurt her game.

I don't play jiggs, so in all honesty I can only speak about Zelda in my wifi experiences. I'm sure jiggs has it rough too =(
 

M-WUZ-H3R3

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Agh!! another heated argument!!!
Im not too shure about this one so Ill just throw out some facts.
-Pound counters dins fire, so use it as often as possible when approching from far away.
-Do not ever get above zelda when she is grounded. Up smash. If you are above her, float to the edge
-Jiggs is too floaty for zelda's spike. Not as deadly to jiggs. With propor DI he can survive most weak spikes.
-Easy to punish off stage due to horrible recovery.
-Pass through zelda with an airdodge, then aireal at her as you get on the other side. This is to avoid the "knee" sweet spots.

Overall be a defensive as you can when fighting zelda.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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Zelda on lag....... good luck trying to sweetspot a lightning kick, lightning stomp or Uair -_-
Meh, good point. I was more thinking her smashes would be ****-near unavoidable. And since we will get hit by them in 95% of our approces, I think that would give her the advantage, wouldn't you :)

and also, Wifi isn't always laggy. Also, Canada isn't as far away as you think it is. Where I live, it is only a few hours drive from NY. I'm not far.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Meh, good point. I was more thinking her smashes would be ****-near unavoidable. And since we will get hit by them in 95% of our approces, I think that would give her the advantage, wouldn't you :)

and also, Wifi isn't always laggy. Also, Canada isn't as far away as you think it is. Where I live, it is only a few hours drive from NY. I'm not far.
it does benefit her there but, it gimps her in other places. all in all, it's just not a good indicator.

and my wifi connection is always ****ty. I'll brawl people, but it's never serious.
 

Glick

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Will you guys shut up about wifi?

Zelda ***** jigglypuff. End of story.

Sure pound breaks through dinfire and zeldas recovery is easily gimped, but shes mildly heavy and she has moves that we can't stop. And shes strong. and jigglypuff is a target for lightning knees. and and and and

just use a secondary.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Will you guys shut up about wifi?

Zelda ***** jigglypuff. End of story.

Sure pound breaks through dinfire and zeldas recovery is easily gimped, but shes mildly heavy and she has moves that we can't stop. And shes strong. and jigglypuff is a target for lightning knees. and and and and

just use a secondary.
pound might beat din's, but I think that's a silly way to do it since it's pretty punishable if it's mistimed, and it's not like Zelda will be using din's close enough to herself for pound to connect, so there are much better ways to avoid it. nair and airdodge for one.

also, zelda isn't really that heavy. she's pretty lightweigt.

and zelda's heels are lightningly... not her knees silly. :laugh:
 

RhedKing

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I see the biggest problem for Jigg's in this case is her poor Ground play, but Zelda has no chance as long as Jigg's comes from the diagonal. Nyru's is good, but it's the horizontal that has value, and while the X-axis shards break apart, Jigg's can just rest her @$$ on that diagonal.

I see this one as a difficult fight for both, since each has a great defense, but in the end I would predict that Jigg's would get her, especially in the air.

Counter pick Shadow Moses?
Pingpong-ed?
 

Kataefi

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But her jab and up-angled ftilt cover diagonal approaches, as does a possible SH Fair or Bair.
 
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