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Official Footstool Thread v. 1.0

The_Jiggernaut

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
649
Alright guys, I thought footstooling and its uses weren’t really being thought about so I figured I’d make a thread to make you guys aware of it and force you all to use it. However, it turns out that it was actually being discussed. This is actually better, since it means you will all be able to contribute your current ideas and it won’t be hard to convince you all to TRY SOME!

Alright then, there are a few excellent reasons why players should footstool in general and reasons why Jigglypuff can do it better than anyone else. These will all be addressed in this thread, and the discussion will center on Jigglypuff for obvious reasons.




Table of Contents:

I) Preface and Updates
II) General Footstool Information
III) Footstool Properties
IV) Footstooling offstage
V) Footstool combos and infinites
VI) Incorporating Footstool and Footstool Mindset
VII) Lists and data






Section I: Preface and Updates

Updates:
01/12/09 Version 1.0: initial posting of the thread

Alright, so my thread is up. Cool beans. Despite what you guys might think however, this isn’t the end. I plan on updating this baby, and you’re going to help me. If any of my information is incorrect, incomplete or outdated then mention it. This thread is going to get better only if you guys help. I’ve marked places where I was almost certain the info was correct, but still not sure. It would be most helpful if you guys confirmed them for me, but only if you already know or you know how to test easily.

Also, I’ve noticed places where I plan to upload video aids. These will come very shortly, since I have most of the replays and just need to send them off to Alex who is kind enough to make them into videos that you can actually watch. I might be adding colour and formatting a little later. Lastly, this section will be constantly updated to tell you guys what is happening/needed/tres sexi. Hope you all enjoy the thread, and comment honestly. This thread is brought to you by Terri's chocolate Orange and the Banjo-Kazooie soundtrack.





Section II: General Footstool Information

First of all, for anyone who is unaware, a Footstool (which will be now referred to as simply “FS”) occurs when a character does a jump directly over another character’s head. The jumping character will perform a higher-than-normal jump, while the other character will be stunned and unable to move if they are standing on the ground, or they will plummet to the ground if they are in the air.

Why is this useful?

Why would you even ask me that? Do you have no imagination at all? Are you seriously that narrow minded? Seriously, just leave this thread right now. I won’t continue with this thread until you leave. Oh, you were serious? Oh, well...that’s kinda awkward...Oops. Well never mind then, I apologise. No, really, you can sit back down. Look, I said I was sorry, don’t cry, man! Look, I’ll make it up to you. I know, I’ll tell you all about a certain topic that is not widely used? How about...Footstooling. Ya, I’ll do that.

Alright so, there are many reasons that make FSing useful. On the ground it puts the opponent in a significant amount of hitstun while you are very close to him/her, which allows for many TRUE combos. Also, a couple of infinites are based on FSing an opponent a short way off the ground. Also, you can spike an opponent or use them to recover by FSing them while off the stage. Why is this useful for Jigglypuff? Well it just is. Jigglypuff, as you should know, has six separate jumps, and it is possible to footstool with all of them. Her areal control coupled with the multiple jumps means that she has the most potential with FSing than any other character in the game.





Section III: Footstool Properties

This section will be in point form for easy navigation and updates

•The hitsun caused by a FS is the same no matter how much damage a character has. This includes on the ground and in the air.

•The falling animation that a FS causes is exactly like when a character drifts back down after being hit upwards. This includes the amount of back and forth control while falling, the inability to speed up or slow down, and the animation used. The only difference is there is a set amount of time before a character can jump or us a move.

•When a character performs a footstool on another character repeatedly, the jump height starts to get smaller. Each character can therefore only FS a certain amount before touching the ground. If the character tries to FS after this limit runs out on a different character, even if they land from the same height as before, it won’t work. The number of times Jigglypuff can FS in without touching the ground is only 2.

•A FS can be preformed when a character has no jumps left and does not count towards the total jumps of a character. You can even do a FS during your jump animation, and therefore pressing the jump button a few times during the same jump increases the chance you will FS. Performing a FS might even cancel lag in other attacks (I don’t know).

•The spot where a character can be FSed actually varies from character to character; it is not necessarily the head. For example, Yoshi gets FSed on his back, near the saddle. I believe that this point is in the middle of the character. I would like to get a complete list for each character up later.

•When a character is FSed while performing a move, the character performing the FS still jumps upwards, but nothing happens to the character being FSed. I’ve seen this called “Pogoing,” but if you guys come up with a better name, we can call it that instead. This applies to every ground and areal move, I believe every special move (needs to be confirmed), and even shielding. However, this doesn’t work on dodges and taunts are interrupted. This doesn’t have much use against an opponent directly, but it does mean you can FS your way back to the stage if an opponent is using a move. This may have some application in doubles while helping your opponent recover without damaging either character. (Vid)

•A character being FSed in the air while over the stage will hit the stage (if they don’t break free before hitting the stage). This fall is not teachable (I believe), which leads to the possibility of certain infinites.

•FSing an opponent does give them their upB move back if they had used it already. I was hoping it didn’t, because that would be absolute ****.

•FSing someone before they die, even if they don’t ever get damage, will count as your kill.





Section IV; Footstooling offstage


Alright, this is where playing Jiggs really pays off; being offstage. As a Jigglypuff player, I can proudly say I feel just as comfortable offstage as I do onstage (unless its online and lagging). Actually this transfers to all my seconds including Bowser. This is why I don’t play Olimar anymore. Jigglypuff is an excellent aerial warrior for reasons I shouldn’t have to explain here. However, her moveset is missing something that would make her a complete tank; a move that can spike. However, if a Jigglypuff player used FS offstage as a spike, then her gimping power would increase tenfold. In fact, if FSing became a Jiggs staple and everyone used it, FS spiking alone has the potential to bring her up a few notches on the tier list.

FS as a spike is different than a regular spike. Obviously a real spike at 100% would most likely kill a character, even with insane DI. At 100%, or even at 999%, a FS spike is only as good as a FS spike at 0%. However, this also means that you can use FS spiking effectively at very low percents opening up the possibility of consistently being able to Gimp opponents under 30%. Also, you can FS spike twice before your opponent recovers/dies. Another thing to mention, after a FS spike the opponent should be low enough that if you hit him with bair/fair/nair towards the stage so that he will hit the underside of the stage for the ultimate stage spike (Vid).

The problem with all this is that as players we don’t think about using FS during a match. When it happens in a match, we have a moment where we go “Oh, ya. Footstooling, I remember that now,” but we quickly forget about it. Reasons why we don’t remember FSing and ways to learn how to use it are discussed in a later section.





Section V: Footstool Combos and Infinites

Right now I only know of one combo and one infinite for Jigglypuff and their variations. This section will be updated when new combos are found.


Combos:

GFSDair combo: Stands for Grounded Footstool Down air combo. This combo consists of dairing and opponent 3 times by using grounded footstools to stop them from escaping in between dairs. The base of this combo does 44% damage if the dair was fresh to start with and all the hits land. It is more likely to work at higher percentages when the hitstun changes type (the specifics of this are fairly technical and do not really need to be in this thread). It should switch at a specific percent for dair which I do not know.

How to do:

1) While near an opponent who is on the ground, do a full jump and dair (not a short hop like with dair>rest). While doing the dair, position yourself so you are near your opponent’s FS spot (usually the head).

2) Once the first dair is done, do a barrel roll short hop FS (by tapping jump, not holding it) off of your opponent and dair a second time. On lighter weight characters, only the first few dair hits will land because of the height of the jump. This allows some characters to escape, but they might not if they weren’t expecting a FS.

3) After the second dair finishes, do another FS short hop and dair for a third time. The FS jump will be shorter than the first, which means (unless you screw it up) the third dair should be able to hit with all of its hits on any character (correct me if there are exeptions).

4) Follow it up with another move to finish the combo. Examples will be given below, and I will add more if I am told about them. You can’t FS a third time, and therefore can’t continue the combo. Why can’t you FS a third time? Because Sakuri hates Jigglypuff. Other characters get, like 5. Then again, this combo wouldn’t be possible if the FS launched her too high. Well, we still know Sakuri hates Jigglypuff for other reasons.

Follow ups:

Utilt – While doing the third dair, position yourself so that you will land with your back facing the opponent. When you land, use utilt. Landing it is tricky, and may require you to ff the dair a bit in order to land right. I’m pretty sure the utilt is a true combo. If you don’t have your back facing him it will still hit, but it will take too long to hit to be considered a combo. This can do a maximum of 53% damage. (Vid)

Rest – Here is where things get interesting. With this you can easily kill an opponent if you start the combo at 50% or whenever the hitstun changes to type 2. After doing the third dair, it is basically a dair>rest. The timing is a bit different. You may have to fast fall to land on the ground at the correct time etc. You might have to figure it out on your own. This combo will do a maximum of 59% (not including the flower). (Vid)



Infinites:

The double jab lock: This lock has a very small window to pull off, but can easily get you a 0 to death combo. This infinite consists of FSing an opponent in the air but very close to the ground, then dropping down with a sourspotted areal, and then hitting them with jabs across the stage, then finishing them off with a move of your choice. It works because FS is not techable. There are different set-ups for this move like utilt and character specific ones (wario), but I will only explain the most feasible one. If you set up in a different way, steps 2-4 remain the same.

How to do:

1) First, you need get the opponent into the air a short way off the ground. While the opponent is standing on the ground and at 0% (3-5% may work too), short hop and do a rising pound into them. The pound actually has different ways to set up this infinite. One way (I believe it is the standard) consists of being close enough that the opponent will be hit almost immediately by the pound as it is still rising. The opponent should rise slightly over you. Then short hop FS jump off of them. Tap the button twice or so during the jump to make it more likely that you will land the FS. The closer they are to the ground when you FS jump the better. The other way would be timing the pound so that the end of the move hits the opponent. You FS them as before, but the timing is different.

2) After your opponent has hit the ground, fast fall a nair or a fair (fair works better) so that you hit the opponent with the sourspot. This is important, because they will not be trapped if you hit them with a sweetspoted aerial.

3) Land and quickly do a double jab (neutral a, neutral a) on their body. Take a step to get closer to them (don’t run) and either double jab again, or just single jab (I find single jabs easier). When the opponent is hit, he/she should bounce on their back. While they are doing this, they are trapped. Keep on stepping closer and hitting them until you want to end it or you reach the end of the stage.

4) FINSH THEM! They should have some good damage by now. The most classic option is dair to rest for the kill. Awesome. Other good options include Fsmash and Dsmash. You might be able to charge them a bit without them being able to recover (I’m not sure).
Since the infinite starts at 0 and can cost the opponent a stock or at least give them massive damage, this can turn the tide of a match or guarantee a victory, and especially demoralize the other player. I suggest going in for a pound and trying to set up the combo at the start of an opponent’s stock at least a few times in a set, if not, look for it at the start of each stock. Obviously, you need to learn it first, but I’m just saying. (Vid)




Section VI: Incorporating Footstool and Footstool Mindset

Alright guys, here is the most important part of the thread. In this section I will try to convince you to actually use this stuff and actually FS in matches rather than you guys looking at this thread, thinking it’s cool, and going back to play as before with FSing being accidents only. This part will be mostly motivational and psychological rather than technical.

Here is the main reason why we don’t FS: it wasn’t in Melee. It is a completely new game mechanic that wasn’t changed from something else but just added. From the transition from Melee to Brawl, things changed, and it is irrelevant to this topic weather it was good or bad, but we got used to things. Air dodging was different, planking was different, heck, even entire movesets were different. That’s just it though, they were different and we eventually adapted. FSing was not like anything we’d seen before, and it didn’t come up often, so there wasn’t any reason we set out to us it. It became something in the backs of our minds.

However, we as Jiggs players are starting to see that FSing could be an extremely useful tool, and although we don’t really think about it, there is no reason we can’t learn to think about it. We can learn, just like we learnt spot dodging, teching, and even sideB moves.

When I first learnt that rest was actually an attack with Jigglypuff, I couldn’t use it at all. It was new and foreign to me, so came up with a method to learn it. First I practiced on a standing opponent is training mode. Once I got the basic timing down, I went to Hyrule Temple and battles three level 3 Donkey Kongs on a team and battled them by only using rest. This is how I learnt, and I like the method, so I’ve devised a similar method, only for footstooling.

1) Go to training mode against a few different characters of different general body types like Large animalistic (DK, Bowser) , medium humanoid (space animals, pit) and small puffball things (Kirby, MK) etc that will be slightly different to FS. Try to FS each while they are both standing and jumping. Practice doing both short hops and full hops off of your opponent.

2) Once you have mastered FSing easy targets, play against a team of 3 level 3 computers (Friendly fire off) of the same character on Rainbow road and fight them only by FSing. Do this for each body type until you feel comfortable with it and you win at least once ;) .

3) Now that you are actually good at FSing, you must face the final test: a team of 3 level 3 computers on rainbow road as before, but this time each computer will be a character from the different body types. After you feel comfortable with this, you have mastered FSing. Congratulations!

So then I urge you all to incorporate FSing into your gameplay. Even if you only use it as a spike, I will be satisfied. I can guarantee that you will find it rewarding.






Section VII: Lists and Data

Here is where I hope to put various lists like points of FSing for each character, the number of FS jumps each character can do before touching the ground etc.
 

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
3,062
Location
Kent Lakes, New York
actually used...

Update: Jigglypuff has a very useful Footstool and all of her aerials can set up for a FH in some way. Nair and pound are very very good at this. I will be making a video guide to footstooling in the future, which will coincide with my rest research (FH + rest ftw).

Part 1: The **** that is Grounded FH vs. Wario.
Wario doesn't move much when you jump on him, this means that you can hit him with a number of aerials instantly out of it.

SH FH combos that I've tested and confirmed
- up-air (leads into FH > double jab lock up to ~50%)
- d-air (see below)
- f-air (KO anyone?)
-rest, yes: footstool hop > rest is a combo

Cool trick... D-air > FH > D-air > FH > D-air > FH > F-air

Yeah, you're wrong about the FH #, see below.


Part 2: Veril's Footstool Jab-lock setup:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkiHhtHHsrk

It has been known for some time that up-air can lead to a footstool hop. Well, it turns out that a footstool hop can lead to an up-air. That in turn leads to a footstool hop. Wario cannot escape this at low %, and it works until an amazing 50%.

You can also perform this on anyone from a rising air offstage without the initial FH.

Grounded Footstool > rising up-air almost simultaneously > footstool hop > falling soft n-air > jab lock

Easier and more effective than the other methods if you can get the first footstool. Also works at higher %. Is a true combo against some characters at low %.

Oh, footstool to up-air is a true combo as far as I've seen.


This doesn't work against all characters... Checking out who.

Definitely Works vs.
Wario (up to a little after 50%)

Works on the second or third hop vs.
Yoshi (?%)

Works on the 3rd hop vs. (can be used)
DK (60% ish)
Luigi (20-30% ish)
Marth (Inescapable if performed correctly at low %)
Zelda

Works on the 4th hop vs. (generally not possible)
DDD (so hard to get that 4th hop though)
Gannon
Link
TL (to low for a footstool followup though)
Samus
Sonic
Wolf

Doesn't work vs.
Bowser
CF
dK
Falco
GW
Ike
Jiggs (useless)
Lucario
Lucas
Mario
MK (falling up-air works great though)
Ness
Olimar
ROB (rising up-air is extremely effective)
Snake


Part 3: Moar Footstool?

"The number of times Jigglypuff can FS in without touching the ground is only 2."

This is wrong. I've gotten four footstool hops in before touching the ground... within the last 30 seconds.

Potential reason: FJR: Footstool jump recovery. When I get close to the ground without actually touching, it seems to refresh the number of hops. Just a theory. I'm really not sure why it happens. I'll put up video proof sometime soon.

Regardless, the 2 FSH is completely inaccurate. You can't just pull off four in a row, there is some technique to it... I just need to figure it out. You all can try to.


Part 4: Other grounded footstool followups

1. Footstool canceled into a Falling pound: is pretty darn near a combo and is a great way to set up the jab lock on larger characters like Bowser and DK.

2. Footstool > uncharged rollout: if you use a very short footstool hop (which you always should IMO) you can hit most characters with rollout out of it. List pending.

3. Footstool > rest: nuff said... for now.


Part 4: Aerial footstool followups

1. SH Footstool to FF strong f-air to KO directly or b-air to stage-spike.

2. SH Footstool to FF soft n-air to footstool.

3. FH Footstool to edgehog.

4. Footstool to d-air for damage.
 

Veril

Frame Savant
Joined
Jun 20, 2008
Messages
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Location
Kent Lakes, New York
this has been know for awhile
No it hasn't. Up-air to FH has been known, FH to up-air to footstool... I've never read about it anywhere. You'd think something that has such specific requirements in terms of which characters it works on, and considering how good it is on Wario, would have some mention somewhere.

Ergo, I claim it as mine.

Anyway, here's the video. It also debunks the 2 Fh limit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SkiHhtHHsrk


Sorry about the double post! :(
 

Veril

Frame Savant
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Jun 20, 2008
Messages
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Location
Kent Lakes, New York
I could see us setting this up with a fullhop dair. Nice find Veril
Thanks. I really want to know how I'm pulling off quadruple footstool hops. I only showed a triple on the vid but I've been able to get 4 on every character. Not consistently though.

Like, a quadruple footstool hop can = 0-d
The fourth footstool hop is a true combo into f-air and rest... (don't quote me on that just yet)

d-air, d-air, d-air, d-air, rest/f-air :)
 

M-WUZ-H3R3

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
1,793
Testing this will get us somewhere.

We have footstooled aireals and jab lock setups. This is great. Not exactly ATs, but small techs like these usualy lead to big ones.

IDEAS:
-D-air footstool trips
-Footstool B-air
-Footstool F-air
-Footstool rest setup?
-Footstool rollout setup
-footstool sing setup (yes RhedKing)

Using proper DI and timing, these things can work. After seeing the footstool U-air, I think you could add a rest somewhere. A nice little setup to add to landing rest disscussion.

The sing one is difficult, but I can picture it happening. From a n-air, or b-air. (like the u-air vid)

Now if only we had a practical footstool setup. Trips work, and so do jab locks.
 

M-WUZ-H3R3

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
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I believe that a footstool canceled into rest always hits on certain characters.
lol squish sleeping

But it is so hard to footstool in the middle of a battle. Are there any known setups?
The only one I know is if your opponent missed a tec, and are lying on the ground.
 

Veril

Frame Savant
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Messages
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Location
Kent Lakes, New York
lol squish sleeping

But it is so hard to footstool in the middle of a battle. Are there any known setups?
The only one I know is if your opponent missed a tec, and are lying on the ground.
I've used sourspotted n-air and f-air moving backwards.

Item throw (tires, peanuts, etc) at close range > Falldash into a jump into a FH is pretty good.

You can footstool hop someone during the vulnerability frames of a roll or spotdodge :)


We shouldn't claim combos. If we do, I get FS > Dair > FS > Nair to Fair.
Yeah... that sure isn't a 0-D on Wario. People claim 0-D combos.
 

M-WUZ-H3R3

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
1,793
I've used sourspotted n-air and f-air moving backwards.

Item throw (tires, peanuts, etc) at close range > Falldash into a jump into a FH is pretty good.

You can footstool hop someone during the vulnerability frames of a roll or spotdodge :)
Ever try sourspotted f-air chining?

epic. It's a lot of fun if you can time it right.

Its cool that you can footstool off a spotdodge or roll. Another reason rolling behind someone is a bad idea. All you have to do is SH, FF, and jump.
 

M-WUZ-H3R3

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 1, 2008
Messages
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This is false.

The real reason is it's really hard to get inside a good players spacing to jump on their head.

Edit: I saw some tournament results where Bowyer plays MK now?
yeah, but not as a main. In tournies he uses him, but I think it's his choice to use a broken character. I would like him to use with jiggs more in tournies to get some wins.

See thread: "Bowyer has betrayed us"

How did he do in that specific tournament?
 

rinoH

Smash Lord
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Playing SF4
No it hasn't. Up-air to FH has been known, FH to up-air to footstool... I've never read about it anywhere. You'd think something that has such specific requirements in terms of which characters it works on, and considering how good it is on Wario, would have some mention somewhere.
Actually there was a thread about by God-is-Rock but its prtty old and i my vid i did do a FH to Uair
 

∫unk

Smash Master
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more than one place
he got 3rd it just said (metaknight) which makes it seem like he rarily used jiggs at all

not using your main in tourney kinda defeats the point but w.e
 

M-WUZ-H3R3

Smash Lord
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he got 3rd it just said (metaknight) which makes it seem like he rarily used jiggs at all

not using your main in tourney kinda defeats the point but w.e
Thats why alex made the betrayal thread. If Bowyer used jiggs in more tournies, it would bring up jigg's rankings a good amount. Im accualy kind of dissipointed that he went the same way M2K did.

Oh well. Good job on 3rd place.
 

Maniclysane

Smash Lord
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stadium transformation
Thats why alex made the betrayal thread. If Bowyer used jiggs in more tournies, it would bring up jigg's rankings a good amount. Im accualy kind of dissipointed that he went the same way M2K did.

Oh well. Good job on 3rd place.
M2K used D3. Plus, M2K ***** with whoever he uses. He just wins more with MK, and has more fun playing MK.
 

The_Jiggernaut

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
649
Alright then, I will start answering some responses, sorry for putting it off, XD

*Awesomeness*
Sweet Work, man. This is awesome. I will deffenently add this stuff to the thread. Too bad the FS>Uair is character specific, though. I will add it along with the other stuff that shold be added around the same time we figure out the mechanic that allows more than 2 FS jumps.

And why does it sound like you are insulting me? 2 times isn't totally wrong, since you have to do something weird to pull it off. If normally I can only get 2 even if I jump a few more times and try to FS them again, or even if I try to FS another character, it seems to be that way under normal condictions. It just need to be added that this mechanic (which we need to figure out) is used.


Lol, nice thread. If you want, I could get videos of the footstool combo's you're talking about. :D
Thanks for the offer. I actually have most of these done already, but still need to send them in (school has been horrible). I am missing a few, however, Like the pound > double jab lock.

lol squish sleeping

But it is so hard to footstool in the middle of a battle. Are there any known setups?
The only one I know is if your opponent missed a tec, and are lying on the ground.
I would actually think it would be fairly easy to do a footstool in a match. At least compaired to going in with dair and other moves. I would think blocking a fairly laggy move and jumping would be one way. Also, being about to FS really well will help with that, I believe.

This is false.

The real reason is it's really hard to get inside a good players spacing to jump on their head.

Edit: I saw some tournament results where Bowyer plays MK now?
Oh, my mistake then, Footstooling was in Melee?

It isn't false, but I think you missed the point. If it was a mechanic in Melee, then we would have learnt how to do the spacing/do set ups and find alot of uses. Since Melee has been out for around 7 years, I am possitive this would have happened. Brawl's metagame is underdevoloped because it isn't even a year old.

Sure, if you just jump in and try to footstool an opponent you will get hit, but the same goes for using any other move, technique, or statagy; you can't just run in and expect it to work. It's only hard to do that because none of us have had any reason to FS an opponent at random, so we don't have any set ways of going in.

Setups besides the ones listed above: Airdodging, Sheild>jump, dair, with airdodging being the big one.

the one tourney i was at i saw him use Jp in the friendlies...... but yeah bowyer left us.

and footstool practice is so much fun.
Sweet, are you using my method? I'm about to go and start practicing in a minute myself.

I haven't had many comments on the content of the thread itself (exept about incorrect information, which is great to get, so please keep it coming). Did I do well? Should I do something differently? I need constructive critisism guys!
 

JigglyZelda003

Smash Hero
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i played a few friendlies today unfortunately zelda Usmashed all day and peach keep moving to much for me to get a fs in, although i did get close.
 

Veril

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Kent Lakes, New York
And why does it sound like you are insulting me?
Not at all intentional. I think you've done great work and look forward to hearing more. Sorry if I came off as a little harsh. I'm under a lot of stress at the moment so I'm kinda cranky.

I think that you have good info, useful method for practicing, it just needs to be expanded. As you can see I'm more than willing to help.

Oh, and I did get to use the 0-D on Wario. I perfect shielded his f-smash as the opening for the footstool. It was on final D. I used the up-air double jab lock and ended it with a DAC pivot-grab release into rest (for maximum snazziness).
 

∫unk

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Here is the main reason why we don’t FS: it wasn’t in Melee.
The_Jiggernaut said:
Oh, my mistake then, Footstooling was in Melee?
Sarcasm doesn't impress me. Read what you wrote carefully. I'm pointing out your false claim that the main reason you don't FS is because it wasn't in melee. Your statement is false even if it has true facts.

The_Jiggernaut said:
It isn't false, but I think you missed the point. If it was a mechanic in Melee, then we would have learnt how to do the spacing/do set ups and find alot of uses.
No Melee is a completely different game with a different game engine stop comparing. And who knows what it would have been if it was in melee but making a dumb statement about what would have been is pointless for this discussion.

The_Jiggernaut said:
Since Melee has been out for around 7 years, I am possitive this would have happened. Brawl's metagame is underdevoloped because it isn't even a year old.
Again with the speculation of impossibility. Time is relative because at the beginning of melee there wasn't really a community and the game wasn't developed at all. Not saying the Brawl is at it's peak it's not even close but we're much farther along then Melee was at this time for obvious reasons.

The_Jiggernaut said:
Sure, if you just jump in and try to footstool an opponent you will get hit, but the same goes for using any other move, technique, or statagy; you can't just run in and expect it to work.
Of course not. You failed to mention the key point which is that using other moves actually have a hitbox with range. With FSing you're just throwing out your hurt box which is what makes this possibly impractical.

The_Jiggernaut said:
It's only hard to do that because none of us have had any reason to FS an opponent at random, so we don't have any set ways of going in.
False. Just because you or other players you know haven't tried this doesn't mean people haven't tried. A well-known easy-to-execute possible gimp on someone doesn't go unnoticed.

This is why Jiggs boards and Jiggs players aren't respected. Straw manning + general ignorance + bad players doesn't lead to great discussion or great development of his game.

Actually I think more than any of this stuff you guys need to learn the basics like picking up patterns before you talk about SDI into rest and stuff. Right now you guys are trying to push the meta when the players aren't there (at least for tourney).

Don't get me wrong I think FS is a largely unexplored area which might amount to something useful (maybe like sh falling u-air grounded footstool lock) and on the whole I have faith in these boards. I want to develop jiggs and am trying but he goes against my playstyle so much :x
 

Veril

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This is why Jiggs boards and Jiggs players aren't respected. Straw manning + general ignorance + bad players doesn't lead to great discussion or great development of his game.

Actually I think more than any of this stuff you guys need to learn the basics like picking up patterns before you talk about SDI into rest and stuff. Right now you guys are trying to push the meta when the players aren't there (at least for tourney).
Them's fightin words!

You make some pretty broad generalizations while managing to insult the entire boards and crap on my work. Learning the basics isn't something that requires character specific threads, and there hardly even was a meta a month ago. We lag far behind the other boards in that respect and are just trying to catch up. The "basics" are crucial, but alone they still leave Jiggs in garbage tier.

I don't care why Footstooling for Jiggs isn't developed, just that it IS underdeveloped. That post served no purpose other than irrelevant fact checking and p***ing me off.

You've got a great marth, I saw the videos. I'm glad we have you here. Just... what an obnoxious post (and you just had to bring rest into it)
 

Xiahou Dun

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Haha. Yes all players need to learn the basics before they chow down on 50 million AT's if it's really ever going to improve them as a player. However you don't won't and can't learn the basics here on SWF if you ask me. That's what you do just by playing the game, so yes these boards are mainly the advanced/theoretical/situational stuff. It's a system that works very well.

I do agree on the not in melee comment. It's much more subtle then it simply not being learned from Melee. I know this for a fact because I never played Melee, so I can't possibly have picked up that subconscious affinity there. : D
 

∫unk

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Them's fightin words!

You make some pretty broad generalizations while managing to insult the entire boards and crap on my work. Learning the basics isn't something that requires character specific threads, and there hardly even was a meta a month ago. We lag far behind the other boards in that respect and are just trying to catch up. The "basics" are crucial, but alone they still leave Jiggs in garbage tier.

I don't care why Footstooling for Jiggs isn't developed, just that it IS underdeveloped. That post served no purpose other than irrelevant fact checking and p***ing me off.

You've got a great marth, I saw the videos. I'm glad we have you here. Just... what an obnoxious post (and you just had to bring rest into it)
Fair enough I figured that part might come off as rude sorry. Generalizations are weak.

My post serves to point out the ignorance of the OP and his response. When you make a thread providing information you have to be accurate and correct because lots of players are going to read it.

I was just giving an example with the rest I don't think any of this work is trash at all it's all good but I think you guys need to stress that the basics need to be learned before you try this stuff. Unfortunately the average jiggs player isn't that great because you guys are so far behind that's why you need to make sure the community understands.
 

Mister E

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I'm a general Jiggsplayer who learned to play Jiggly a few months ago... I found out that i was Ok with her and started maining her... Here at smashboards i gota say that the Jigglyguides are some of the Guides that's easiest to understand and i learned the basics really fast...

I got problems learning the Advanced rests (perfect rest, etc) but the boards actually have videos explaining exactly how you do it... I've learned a LOT more from the Jiggs board than i've learned from any other boards here... people here makes me interested in learning more of Jigglypuff... i can't believe how you can say that these guys aren't doing a good job...

I'm sorry if i missunderstood what you were trying to say, but anyway call me a noob or whatever... i just want to prove my point... "I LOVE THE JIGGS BOARDS" :p

(Ignore my dumb grammar -.-)
 

Veril

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Fair enough I figured that part might come off as rude sorry. Generalizations are weak.

My post serves to point out the ignorance of the OP and his response. When you make a thread providing information you have to be accurate and correct because lots of players are going to read it.

I was just giving an example with the rest I don't think any of this work is trash at all it's all good but I think you guys need to stress that the basics need to be learned before you try this stuff. Unfortunately the average jiggs player isn't that great because you guys are so far behind that's why you need to make sure the community understands.
OK. Thanks for the apology. I really do put a lot into the Jiggs metagame stuff.

Anyway, the basics are explained throughout the tactical boards and in Alex's thread. I mean, if people don't know the basics... The "advanced" part of AT should be a dead giveaway. The average Jiggs player is... who knows, I've never actually even met another competent Jiggs player.

Still glad to have a player of your caliber here. If you have any questions about the rest stuff or whatever feel free to post or pm me.
 
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