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Official Footstool Thread v. 1.0

SuSa

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Marth is one of the few characters with countless options open at any given time...can't depend on predictablity on this one.

Will be fsmash, dtilt, ftilt, dancing blade, or dsmash? (vertical, grounded)

Seems like a lot of options, and most of them have different startup speeds, and dancing blade can be continued =p
 

JigglyZelda003

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yeah some Marths do get into the Fairwall all day and become predictable. as well as other things like doing an aerial, regardless of hit or not, then as you move in Fsmash.
 

Maniclysane

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yeah some Marths do get into the Fairwall all day and become predictable. as well as other things like doing an aerial, regardless of hit or not, then as you move in Fsmash.
I wouldn't use fsmash much. Marth shouldn't have much of a problem with it.

All we have to do to kill Marth offstage is just nair them. It's not too hard. The matchup sounds worse on paper than it really is. :X
 

Noobicidal

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dtilt might out range it though.
It does by a small margin, but it's negligible at best. You need a good 50-70% more damage than the F-tilt percents to give it teh sexy trip property.

Edit: T'was just a guess. D-tilt trips D3 at 136% compared to 59 with F-tilt.
 

Glick

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Hey guys, lets be perfectly honest here. If marth is a really bad matchup for characters like wario, which is basically a good jiggz with a ground game, good di and a little less range, then what makes you think that jigglypuff has anything on him. I know the matchup pretty well so I don't really have much trouble, but in general its a terrible matchup. Stop making jigglypuff sound good.
 

Maniclysane

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It does by a small margin, but it's negligible at best. You need a good 50-70% more damage than the F-tilt percents to give it teh sexy trip property.

Edit: T'was just a guess. D-tilt trips D3 at 136% compared to 59 with F-tilt.
Lol, I was talking about Marths ftilt.

EDIT: Shiz I meant dtilt. I'm stupid.
 

Veril

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Hey guys, lets be perfectly honest here. If marth is a really bad matchup for characters like wario, which is basically a good jiggz with a ground game, good di and a little less range, then what makes you think that jigglypuff has anything on him. I know the matchup pretty well so I don't really have much trouble, but in general its a terrible matchup. Stop making jigglypuff sound good.
The only way to beat a good marth is to be an incredible Jiggs and have a lot of experience with the matchup. The matchup is god-awful and I really recommend counterpicking for it.
 

JigglyZelda003

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I wouldn't use fsmash much. Marth shouldn't have much of a problem with it.
Oh i ment Marths Fsmash not jiggs. i wouldn't dare do that on marth unless he like tripped or i managed to put him to sleep.

The only way to beat a good marth is to be an incredible Jiggs and have a lot of experience with the matchup. The matchup is god-awful and I really recommend counterpicking for it.
Quoted for truth. but personally i'd rather fight marth all day than take one even 1 G@W.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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@ Maniclysane: That's the reason FSing is considered impractical or hard to do. Not why it is so unexplored.


Oh i ment Marths Fsmash not jiggs. i wouldn't dare do that on marth unless he like tripped or i managed to put him to sleep.



Quoted for truth. but personally i'd rather fight marth all day than take one even 1 G@W.


Agreed.

Alrighty then, glad to know where Jiggs stands against Marth (again), but could we get back on topic preeze?

Questions to ask:

What mechanic causes Jiggs to be able to FS 4 times in one jump? (I can only get three, though it is 'naturally' twice. Are they all Shorthops, Veril?)

What are new applications of FSing not mentioned in this thread?

What information in the first post is incomplete or wrong?

Lets try and answer these, for the development of Jiggs' metagame and for Jiggs mains everywhere!
 

Veril

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Questions to ask:

What mechanic causes Jiggs to be able to FS 4 times in one jump? (I can only get three, though it is 'naturally' twice. Are they all Shorthops, Veril?)

What are new applications of FSing not mentioned in this thread?

What information in the first post is incomplete or wrong?

Lets try and answer these, for the development of Jiggs' metagame and for Jiggs mains everywhere!
Some stuff that might be useful: Grounded FSH stuff.

1. Each footstool hop a maximum height, which may be dependent simply on the # of jumps you have used or the total height gained. I believe it to be a function of the jump #, not the total height. That said, the number of footstool hops may have something to do with total height.

2. Every footstool also has a minimum height. This also has an effect on the speed of the hop. The time spent near the opponents head is longer the more hops you take. The minimum height is very important for the up-air combo and well as any other grounded footstool combos.

3. All characters are affected differently by grounded footstools. This is seen through the footstool > up-air combo, which requires a different jump # for each character. Wario is most affected by footstools, as any aerial can combo out of the first footstool SH.

4. The total # of hops possible is a mystery, as is the exact method for getting more jumps. I'm pretty sure I've gotten five. I wish I had an answer for this and it is definitely something I will look into. (The first doesn't have to be a shorthop, I'm not sure about the second if you want to get more)

Your information is accurate from what I can tell.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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Alright guys, this tread is getting a make over. I'm going to add the new info, upload the vids (once I finally get them to Alex; I've been very busy) and take out any controversial topics.

Before the thread goes up, I'm going to need a few questions answered directly if you guys know them off the top of your heads. If you don't know, say so.

True or false?

Performing a FS while doing an aerial will cancel all of the move's lag.

Pogoing (FSing when another character is using a move) can be done to every move (even specials) with no exceptions, providing the move has too much range for a FS to be done (don't test everything, just say if you know any exceptions)

A FSed character can't tech upon hitting the ground.

After doing 2 or more FS's on an enemy, a dair will be able to land all of its hits on every character. (if he or she is facing the right way.

As a finisher for a double jab lock, you can charge an Fsmash or a Dsmash a bit before they can escape consistently.


Also, does anyone know how jiggs can FS 4 or more times? I can do 3 times only, but consistently. Veril can I see a Vid so I can analyse it?
 

Veril

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True or false?

Performing a FS while doing an aerial will cancel all of the move's lag. Not exactly sure what you mean by that.

Pogoing (FSing when another character is using a move) can be done to every move (even specials) with no exceptions, providing the move has too much range for a FS to be done (don't test everything, just say if you know any exceptions) I'll get back to you on that.

A FSed character can't tech upon hitting the ground. True

After doing 2 or more FS's on an enemy, a dair will be able to land all of its hits on every character. (if he or she is facing the right way. True. Also, on Yoshi and Wario you can land all hits on the first hop.

As a finisher for a double jab lock, you can charge an Fsmash or a Dsmash a bit before they can escape consistently. True


Also, does anyone know how jiggs can FS 4 or more times? I can do 3 times only, but consistently. Veril can I see a Vid so I can analyse it? Yes.
Hope that helps. I am reasonably certain there is some sort of timing involved. Four in a row is pretty much impossible on most characters. 4 footstools without landing is possible on the whole cast.

All characters listed below are ones I have footage of:

Some characters seem resistant to 3+ footstool hops.
List of Footstool "resistant" characters:
-Peach
-Bowser

List of characters I have gotten 4 in a row:
-Luigi

List of characters I have gotten 4 footstools on (not in a row) before landing:
-Mario
 

The_Jiggernaut

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Hope that helps. I am reasonably certain there is some sort of timing involved. Four in a row is pretty much impossible on most characters. 4 footstools without landing is possible on the whole cast.

All characters listed below are ones I have footage of:

Some characters seem resistant to 3+ footstool hops.
List of Footstool "resistant" characters:
-Peach
-Bowser

List of characters I have gotten 4 in a row:
-Luigi

List of characters I have gotten 4 footstools on (not in a row) before landing:
-Mario
sounds awesome, it will defenently be added to the thread. Thanks for the input, btw.

About "Performing a FS while doing an aerial will cancel all of the move's lag."

I mean if Jiggs is doing an aerial and before its animation is finished she preforms a FS, will it override the aerial's animation. Basically, can you do a FS while you are doing a move.

And how much can you charge up the Smash as a double jab lock finisher? a quarter? half way?
 

Veril

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sounds awesome, it will defenently be added to the thread. Thanks for the input, btw.

About "Performing a FS while doing an aerial will cancel all of the move's lag."

I mean if Jiggs is doing an aerial and before its animation is finished she preforms a FS, will it override the aerial's animation. Basically, can you do a FS while you are doing a move.
You're welcome :)

Footstool (auto) canceling: really cool idea. I would try to footstool with the same timing as autocanceling upon landing (up-air is probably the best for this). I actually think I've done this. When Alex gets us the exact autocancel/IASA frames we'll have something more to work with.

If that works... OMG footstool all day every day.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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You're welcome :)

Footstool (auto) canceling: really cool idea. I would try to footstool with the same timing as autocanceling upon landing (up-air is probably the best for this). I actually think I've done this. When Alex gets us the exact autocancel/IASA frames we'll have something more to work with.

If that works... OMG footstool all day every day.
exactly. Another alternitive could be that you would footstool while doing a move, which has some great applications too.
 

The_Jiggernaut

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I agree with you, but I'm just saying it should be looked into. I'll try and do it soon, but I'm extremely swamped right now. I'm actually screwed for tommorrow's due dates. Really, I shouldn't be here, but I'm sick, so my mind is in the gutter and won't start up...
 

Noobicidal

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Odd time to record that, but VERY interesting nonetheless. Definitely going to look into that after I waste some more time studying various frame data for Chain-choking.
 

san.

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I can get multiple footstools above 2 if I do 2 jumps from around the body of the opponent right to the head.

I think it works if you footstool while in the jumping animation or something
 

san.

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I guess you get extra footstool jumps when you do it during the air jump animation. The vid proves it too
 

Crazy Cloud

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How to do:

1) While near an opponent who is on the ground, do a full jump and dair (not a short hop like with dair>rest). While doing the dair, position yourself so you are near your opponent’s FS spot (usually the head).

2) Once the first dair is done, do a barrel roll short hop FS (by tapping jump, not holding it) off of your opponent and dair a second time. On lighter weight characters, only the first few dair hits will land because of the height of the jump. This allows some characters to escape, but they might not if they weren’t expecting a FS.

3) After the second dair finishes, do another FS short hop and dair for a third time. The FS jump will be shorter than the first, which means (unless you screw it up) the third dair should be able to hit with all of its hits on any character (correct me if there are exeptions).

4) Follow it up with another move to finish the combo. Examples will be given below, and I will add more if I am told about them. You can’t FS a third time, and therefore can’t continue the combo. Why can’t you FS a third time? Because Sakuri hates Jigglypuff. Other characters get, like 5. Then again, this combo wouldn’t be possible if the FS launched her too high. Well, we still know Sakuri hates Jigglypuff for other reasons.
I like how there's no credits for the majority of this method being put out by me back in October. But, regardless.

Up until I took my break in december for TvC (hope it's at EVO 09, but that's like wishing for the stars), I'd been GFSJing since I'd discovered this back in early october. I'd like to add some insight, since my friends I played with on WiFi with blue connections, and friends offline, were used to my GFSJing.

1) Unless it's someone with a huge footstool hitbox (Donkey Kong, Jiggly, Yoshi), someone Like Zamus who has a small foostool hitbox can easily escape with SDI on two or more of the hits on Dair (Which isn't important for casual play, but high leveled play it is crucial). You have to strip it down to the last hit of Dair.

2) They won't escape the Dair after the short hopped footstool if you fastfall after the second hit of the Dair. If they're in grounded hitstun 2 (or as you say, type 2), they won't be out of hitstun before you come back down with the last [two]* hits.

* = Depends on the character's size if Jiggly can hit with the last two hits or only one hit.

3) No, no, no. And I had this up with Donkey Kong and it's incorrect. They will DI + SDI out and you will not be able to chase them unless you're able to predict which way they'll be going and start to move with them in that direction as soon as the first hit connects. If you have stage control, and they're up against an edge, then yes you can.

But for the record, and when your opponents get used to GFSJing with Jiggly, you'll realize it's better to just end after the second DAir.


In all honesty, I'm pretty much done with Brawl and I'm taking a long break. I'm more into Melee and TvC now, so this is probably all I can really contribute.

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=197478

Read through this and copy out my character data. It's applied for both Grounded footstool Jumping, as well as aerial (nothing changed).
 

Maniclysane

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I like how there's no credits for the majority of this method being put out by me back in October. But, regardless.
Short hopping has been done for awhile. I've seen videos of Meow ****** a Yoshi with a double dair FS's in october too. Grounded foot stools are too situational to really be used often, since people are usually moving while they're on the ground, and you're throwing your hurtbox out while you do it.
 

Crazy Cloud

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Short hopping has been done for awhile. I've seen videos of Meow ****** a Yoshi with a double dair FS's in october too. Grounded foot stools are too situational to really be used often, since people are usually moving while they're on the ground, and you're throwing your hurtbox out while you do it.
It's full jumping >_>. lol.

They're situational at first. But it gets to a point where it's not hard to hit a moving opponent and follow with footstooling them once they're at high enough percents to force grounded hitstun 2, and especially 3.

It's more of a pain when they happened to jump, then you hit them with the last 1-2 hits of Dair.
 

Veril

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Just so that everyone is clear on this:

I did not discover the grounded footstool > up-air > jablock setup (which I thought I did) nor did I discover the d-air setup (though apparently people thought I did).

These were discovered by Glick and Crazycloud respectively. GJ guys, don't hate me :p

Short hopping has been done for awhile.
:psycho:
 
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