Character skill vs Player Skill: A Graphical Relationship

EdreesesPieces · Feb 6, 2009

Hi everyone. So, I had a lot of caffeine today and I rarely have caffeine so it makes me go nuts. So I've done something. I've decided I want to explore the relationship on character skill vs player skill - how much player skill does someone need to overcome tiers, for example? This kind of thing is very interesting to me and I'm beginning to think about it. I've even made a chart to illustrate my opinion on Peach relative to the rest of the cast.

I've created a graphic to illustrate my point PERFECTLY.

Notice that, at lower and mid levels of skill, Peach will lose to high tier and even mid tier characters. But once you play at an amazing level of skill and performance, you can handle snakes and even get close to Metaknight, but at perfection MK still wins out and Snake is nearly even. I think the rest of the chart is decently accurate, though off. I'm gonna be working on getting a more accurate chart of this kind of stuff (I find it fascinating to figure out exactly how skill and character ability work together) Also notice I'm taking a jab at snake players by saying that at low and mid levels of skill, its much easier to win with snake than Metaknight, which is true =P

Notice the overlaps ; a mid tier player can beat higher tier characters if he's playing one "skill" tier above someone else. Skill tier and character tier work together to decide the outcome of a match. IMO this stuff is really fun and can be useful in determining character worth.

Please be noted that I spent maybe, 5 minutes on the chart, and it's not totally accurate, so don't get butthurt if I give some tiers too much credit or not enough, its just a really, really tough estimate for now. But I want to work on exploring this kind of thing more later, just wanted to see what people think of the idea!

Hive · Feb 6, 2009

really kwl edreeses! poor low tier though T.T lol

samus, ics, and diddy and a few others i think are weird though just cuz there playing styles need to be adaptd to ^^... i think the skill of the opponent matters, but i also think that the opponents matchup exp is just as much of a factor despite the overall skill of the opposing player... ^^
very kwl graph though! what kind of caffeine?

EdreesesPieces · Feb 6, 2009

Of course it doesn't take matchups into account, just averages. So some low tier characters could be up there in the 70s or 80s, some aren't, its more of an average. Numbers are not statistical and totally came out of my arse, but the idea is there

Hive · Feb 6, 2009

<gasp!> no censor dodging! lol jk

i know its just an average ^^ its better that way too :D i didn't realize peach had such a very high learning curve! but it makes sense ^^
good stuff.

Amide · Feb 6, 2009

I think that a bad Meta Knight will beat a bad Snake, and lots of people think that a perfect Snake will beat a perfect MK,but the chart says otherwise.

Nice chart in progress, go Peach!

Samuelson · Feb 6, 2009

This is cool Edrees. You should make one of DK depending on whether or not they run into DDD. XD

Kitamerby · Feb 6, 2009

I think you overestimate Peach. :\

Also, this chart is inaccurate because you didn't put Lucario above Meta Knight on highest levels of play. Srsly. :3

Hive · Feb 6, 2009

lol no one likes lucario

he doesn't share his aura ^^

Flayl · Feb 6, 2009

No offence, but you don't need a graph to present an opinion. Specially when there's no factual data to base the graph on -.-

brinboy789 · Feb 6, 2009

why does everybody say that MK dominates at lower levels of play? this graph says snake dominates harder...

although you did say in 5 mins

and low tier takes a HUGE leap from playing good to playing amazing...

TheUmbreonMonarchy · Feb 6, 2009

Not to criticize, more like an opinion, but I'm pretty sure a perfect Snake would just be below a perfect MK.

Hive · Feb 6, 2009

its still a good average though i thought? idk, its averages though right? so even if snake can beat mk at high levels of play it doesn't necessarily mean he will above in this graph though? mk still probably has more good matchups than snake across the boards... snake still has ddd, pikachu, and rob as disadvantages i think (could be wrong)? and mk has like what? 1-2 slightly bad matchups?

Kitamerby · Feb 6, 2009

Hive said:
lol no one likes lucario he doesn't share his aura ^^

Every living being has Aura. Lucario is just naturally more in touch with his aura, as well as having the training required to allow him to control it.

Ostro · Feb 6, 2009

Woah. An AMAZING low tier loses to a sucky MK/Snake (Snake moreso)? This isn't Melee. :/

brinboy789 · Feb 6, 2009

Darksamus93 said:
Woah. An AMAZING low tier loses to a sucky MK/Snake (Snake moreso)? This isn't Melee. :/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5DEnaS6alc

ExCeL 52 · Feb 6, 2009

This is a really cool conception for five minutes lol.
Yeah I agree Peach plays VERY well when you get to a high level of skill.
At low levels she ****ing sucks donkey ***** though.
You should do this with every character.. Although it would take freaking forever it would be REALLY cool.

Browny · Feb 6, 2009

Are you implying peach is the second best character in the game when played perfectly?

I think olimar/IC deserves that spot. Also please dont use words like 'is' and 'will', this chart is nothing more than opinion, those words make it seem like there is some sort of undeniable proof backing up your claims

gallax · Feb 6, 2009

i played the best peach from puerto rico at FAST1 and ive seen first hand what a perfect peach can do. his peach owned every snake in my bracket and that he played.

TheDUD · Feb 6, 2009

brinboy789 said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5DEnaS6alc

LOL I like your avatar... http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=205604

Timbers · Feb 6, 2009

This would imply that Peach is a much better character than the vast majority of the cast, which I highly doubt. It's like assuming every character plateaus so early that a character like Peach can surpass them. It's a cool concept, but I definitely think the chart should have been thought out more. You don't actually explain how Peach gets this amazing boost between "average" and "great" player, you kinda of just say it is, and then fail to explain why Snake (and presumably everyone else sans metaknight) just doesn't cut it.

Kraryo · Feb 6, 2009

Pit and Wolf are easier to pick up than most of the characters in their respective tier. Pit would be easier to get a hang of than Wolf would be, because Pit's don't have to put any effort into their recovery (ignoring edgeguarding) while Wolves have to work harder than most other characters to recover. Wolf is still easy to learn at a low level due to his smashes and blaster spam. On the flipside, high tier Diddy Kong is one of the hardest characters to learn (but at least he's playable for people who haven't played him that much).

I do agree that Peach is very hard to learn, but I doubt a "perfect" Peach could suprass a "perfect" Snake and "perfect" high tiers.

ExCeL 52 · Feb 6, 2009

Timbers said:
This would imply that Peach is a much better character than the vast majority of the cast, which I highly doubt. It's like assuming every character plateaus so early that a character like Peach can surpass them. It's a cool concept, but I definitely think the chart should have been thought out more. You don't actually explain how Peach gets this amazing boost between "average" and "great" player, you kinda of just say it is, and then fail to explain why Snake (and presumably everyone else sans metaknight) just doesn't cut it.

Eh... Peach is a amazing character.. In about one/two years I can assure you she will be high/top tier. She has an insane amount of At's. She has an insane varieties of combos. She is a very unpredictable player, because of her float. Her defensive game is the best in Brawl by far. After you perfect all of those or get close to it.. its VERY hard to beat Peach. Her float is basically the key factor in why. She has chaingrabs and she can bair lock..

Give her time. Mark my words.

xDD-Master · Feb 6, 2009

Very very interesting

I made an own one XD

Something like that. Maybe noob MK should be a little bit higher i'm not sure xD

ExCeL 52 · Feb 6, 2009

xDD-Master said:
Very very interesting

I made an own one XD

Something like that. Maybe noob MK should be a little bit higher i'm not sure xD

Post this in the C. Falcon boards.
They will love you forever and ever.

Braggins · Feb 6, 2009

You should get really ambitious and make a line for each character. That would be a crazy looking graph.

Browny · Feb 6, 2009

ExCeL 52 said:
Her defensive game is the best in Brawl by far. .

Snake?

????

Col. Stauffenberg · Feb 6, 2009

ExCeL 52 said:
Eh... Peach is a amazing character.. In about one/two years I can assure you she will be high/top tier. She has an insane amount of At's. She has an insane varieties of combos. She is a very unpredictable player, because of her float. Her defensive game is the best in Brawl by far. After you perfect all of those or get close to it.. its VERY hard to beat Peach. Her float is basically the key factor in why. She has chaingrabs and she can bair lock..

Give her time. Mark my words.

I could probably make a similar claim for half the characters in the game.

"Best defensive game in Brawl by far" made me laugh though.

Kraryo · Feb 6, 2009

Peach is overhyped as a character. Even though I'm not good with Peach, I'm pretty positive that Falco and Olimar have better defensive games. Peach would be lower high tier at best.

¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯ · Feb 6, 2009

Nice work, to me the most interesting thing is the linear-ness (lol) of the Snake part and how it barely goes up, especially compared to the other lines, I know it's not completely accurate tho. I mean Snake only goes up ~20 points, which is nothing compared to some other ones.

EdreesesPieces · Feb 6, 2009

Yes I did overestimate Peach. Because I don't have time to write the equation of a line that perfectly depicts where I think she would go, its guess and check..lol. This was all guesswork, like I said none of this is accurate, its the CONCEPT that I wanted to illustrate. I'm not saying a perfectly played low tier can't beat a sucky MK, I just didn't refine the lines to be that accurate. The idea is there for fun. I think it fosters better discussion of tiers. there was no point in trying to make it accurate because it would be based off my opinion alone anyway, which is going to be inaccurate, so there was no point in trying.

For example if a tier list is based only on both players playing perfectly at the highest level, do we ignore any tournament results of players playing at in between skill levels? If we include those tournament results where players are not playing perfectly, then we admit a lot of player skill is factored into the tier list. Just saying, it's a thought.

xDD master - that is the most amazing thing I have ever seen.

ExCeL 52 · Feb 6, 2009

djbrowny said:
Snake?

????

No. Peach.

CR4SH · Feb 6, 2009

Neato!

10spiffy

GooseMainsDiddy · Feb 6, 2009

ExCeL 52 said:
Eh... Peach is a amazing character.. In about one/two years I can assure you she will be high/top tier. She has an insane amount of At's. She has an insane varieties of combos. She is a very unpredictable player, because of her float. Her defensive game is the best in Brawl by far. After you perfect all of those or get close to it.. its VERY hard to beat Peach. Her float is basically the key factor in why. She has chaingrabs and she can bair lock..

Give her time. Mark my words.

I agree with some things you said. I also think you are a biased little *** hole.

Anyway, I do agree that she will become at least the bottom of top tier.

MarthFanatique · Feb 6, 2009

ExCeL 52 said:
Eh... Peach is a amazing character.. In about one/two years I can assure you she will be high/top tier. She has an insane amount of At's. She has an insane varieties of combos. She is a very unpredictable player, because of her float. Her defensive game is the best in Brawl by far. After you perfect all of those or get close to it.. its VERY hard to beat Peach. Her float is basically the key factor in why. She has chaingrabs and she can bair lock..

Give her time. Mark my words.

Heck yes! I loved her in Melee, then hated her in Brawl. I was crap w/ her for a long time. Like, I couldn't beat a lv. 9 CPU w/ her bad...yeah, I know...however, as I progressed with her, and I learned her AT's, float tricks, etc., I realized that tiers (as usual) are not always...hmm, can't think of the word. I'm not sure if she should be put that high, but I think that she is certainly a force to be reckoned with. Perhaps her tier standing should remain as her Melee tier standing (high tier, I presume?).

ExCeL 52 said:
This is a really cool conception for five minutes lol.
Yeah I agree Peach plays VERY well when you get to a high level of skill.
At low levels she ****ing sucks donkey ***** though.
You should do this with every character.. Although it would take freaking forever it would be REALLY cool.

Yes, her learning curve is VERY high. But worth it for sure! But, don't get me wrong, she definitely has her flaws.

Nintendevil · Feb 7, 2009

Snake noobs don't know **** except mortar spam.

TheUmbreonMonarchy · Feb 7, 2009

Uh, I'm pretty sure Peach will never reach Top Tier to all of those say she will. High Tier at most.

ExCeL 52 said:
She has an insane amount of At's.

So does Yoshi. I don't see him moving up the Tier List because of that.

ExCeL 52 said:
She has an insane varieties of combos.

She only has some on a few characters (though I will admit most are where they matter).

ExCeL 52 said:
She is a very unpredictable player, because of her float.

"unpredictibility" is player dependant. I don't see people just using float, then they're instantly unpredictable, no matter the player's skill level.

ExCeL 52 said:
Her defensive game is the best in Brawl by far.

I'd give that to Olimar instead.

ExCeL 52 said:
After you perfect all of those or get close to it.. its VERY hard to beat Peach.

I'll give you that you're true here. Stupid *****, lay off the Turnips.

ExCeL 52 said:
She has chaingrabs

Only on a few characters.

ExCeL 52 said:
she can bair lock..

Only if your opponent can't tech or you're Wario (which, iirc, Wario can escape it).

deepseadiva · Feb 7, 2009

ExCeL 52 said:
Eh... Peach is a amazing character.. In about one/two years I can assure you she will be high/top tier. She has an insane amount of At's. She has an insane varieties of combos. She is a very unpredictable player, because of her float. Her defensive game is the best in Brawl by far. After you perfect all of those or get close to it.. its VERY hard to beat Peach. Her float is basically the key factor in why. She has chaingrabs and she can bair lock..

Yea, Excel, while it's good you have some character pride - but don't go overboard. :laugh:

She's high tier material, not god.

Flamingo · Feb 7, 2009

lol @ peach being just a liiiiittle higher than snake. haha

Timbers · Feb 7, 2009

ExCeL 52 said:
Eh... Peach is a amazing character.. In about one/two years I can assure you she will be high/top tier. She has an insane amount of At's. She has an insane varieties of combos. She is a very unpredictable player, because of her float. Her defensive game is the best in Brawl by far. After you perfect all of those or get close to it.. its VERY hard to beat Peach. Her float is basically the key factor in why. She has chaingrabs and she can bair lock..

Give her time. Mark my words.

Unneccessary praise lol. I obviously don't understand Peach to the extent of a Peach main, but when you're trying to back up your claim with the amount of ATs she has or her "unpredictability," I lol.

Link and Yoshi have a boatload of ATs, doesn't mean anything.

Unpredictable=/=character. Your character can be diverse, or it can be linear. It's up to the player in how to execute the character though, the character doesn't make the player a master of mindgames.

EdreesesPieces said:
Yes I did overestimate Peach. Because I don't have time to write the equation of a line that perfectly depicts where I think she would go, its guess and check..lol. This was all guesswork, like I said none of this is accurate, its the CONCEPT that I wanted to illustrate. I'm not saying a perfectly played low tier can't beat a sucky MK, I just didn't refine the lines to be that accurate. The idea is there for fun. I think it fosters better discussion of tiers. there was no point in trying to make it accurate because it would be based off my opinion alone anyway, which is going to be inaccurate, so there was no point in trying.

For example if a tier list is based only on both players playing perfectly at the highest level, do we ignore any tournament results of players playing at in between skill levels? If we include those tournament results where players are not playing perfectly, then we admit a lot of player skill is factored into the tier list. Just saying, it's a thought.

I understand that this was mainly pure concept, and I completely back you on this idea, as I like it very much. It seems like a few people took the chart literally however (read above quote for example) and so I thought I'd just answer the thread as a whole. Peach is good, but I don't see her shooting to top like, ever.

OmegaXF · Feb 7, 2009

Seconded xD

Character skill vs Player Skill: A Graphical Relationship

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