Character skill vs Player Skill: A Graphical Relationship

[Brinzy]

Excel, I thought you went on to higher and better places to play Brawl.

 

[Remzi]

It seems like the content here is baseless. If Peach is so far ahead of the rest of her tier, is it really fair to generalize the rest of the tiers as a single unit? You can't possibly back this up factually and you don't really explain your opinions much either.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I think you need a brain transplant.

Whoops, I must have made a mistake somewhere.

 

[ExCeL 52]

Excel, I thought you went on to higher and better places to play Brawl.

How did I know you were going to say that..
You see theres this thing called a "Character Select Screen" after a match.
And then there is this thing called a controller in which you can drop.
And then there is this thing called legs which can make you walk to a computer! (While your opponent thinks of who to play as)!

 

[Brinzy]

There's also this thing I read:

Im going to go PLAY brawl and get better.
If you would like to PLAY brawl please private message me.
Thanks bye..

Usually, you say "bye" to imply that you're leaving.

Maybe you meant to say, "Thanks brb."

 

[Yuna]

EDIT: Yuna, you lost me with the point about Azen. If we are talking about which characters can win major tournaments, then the issue is which players can win major tournaments, and what characters these players choose. So first, let us decide who can win a major tournament. Then, we can determine that they can win these tournaments with the characters they have successfully won tounaments with.

No.

If we're talking about characters, who's playing them is irrelevant. We should only look at things objectively. Assuming highest level of play and roughly equal skill level, what characters can win major tournaments?

I agree with the brain transplant comment.

How did I know you were going to say that..
You see theres this thing called a "Character Select Screen" after a match.
And then there is this thing called a controller in which you can drop.
And then there is this thing called legs which can make you walk to a computer! (While your opponent thinks of who to play as)!

I see you've elected to utilize the "If I pretend like I didn't just say a bunch of ludicrous things and get called out on it by Yuna, everyone will forget it ever happened" approach.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Everyone plays their character different, one style being better than others. Player A could play a defensive Bowser and player B could play an aggresive Bowser. They are of equal skill, however it's commonly known defensive Bowser > offensive Bowser, therefor making player A better than B, while still being on the same level of skill. Now this is just a (kind of extreme) example, but there are WAY more styles to play with. You can't graph the characters development.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

No.

If we're talking about characters, who's playing them is irrelevant. We should only look at things objectively. Assuming highest level of play and roughly equal skill level, what characters can win major tournaments?

I agree with the brain transplant comment.

That won't work.

There are only a few players that can win major tournaments, pretty much just Ally, M2K, Azen, and NinjaLink. They are all super-good, in some cases on a whole different level than the players immediately below them, and could probably win with any character in the top ten, if not beyond that. Anyone below them cannot win major tournaments because of them. Thus, the highest level of play, roughly equal skill level, and, most importantly, "can win major tournaments" is pretty much isolated to these guys (and the characters they use).

 

[IrArby]

I don't know to what extent the community agrees with this but I think the matchups between the upper mids/ highs/ and tops are highly dependent on the matchup itself and you can't really make a concrete chart like this. I think the goal should be to not have to rely on tier lists since matchups are much better indicators.

 

[Problem2]

The original post is soooo biased. The OP also didn't back any of it with evidence.

There lacks a scale for this chart. How bad is a bad player? How flawless is a perfect player? These things need to be answered.

There is also no scale for how much better one character/tier is than another. If they are a decently apart, does that mean one character can consistantly 1 stock the opponent with ease or 2 stock? Or does it even mean if the worse character of the two was twice as good, he/she would still be 3 stocked?

 

[_Phloat_]

What skill level would you say M2K is at Edreeses?

 

[BentoBox]

Peach is at the dead center of the tier list. There are some people doing just fine with E/F tiers (boss, reflex, etc). Do they win? Not consistently, but they get **** done. That is all that matters. This rambling about Peach is just unnecessary.

Yuna, quit TL and focus on your Marth imo.

 

[TheUmbreonMonarchy]

Edrees' theory + Yuna + Yuna's Logic + Yuna's debating skills + Yuna's razor sharp wit, sarcasm and snark = Theory exposed as pure baloney.

Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney.Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney.Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney.

I ****ing lol'd, hard.

****it, Edrees, look at what you created. D:

 

[Kataefi]

Numbers are not statistical and totally came out of my arse, but the idea is there

Yes I did overestimate Peach. Because I don't have time to write the equation of a line that perfectly depicts where I think she would go, its guess and check..lol. This was all guesswork, like I said none of this is accurate, its the CONCEPT that I wanted to illustrate.

the idea is there

its the CONCEPT that I wanted to illustrate.

I don't think Peach has anything to do with his point.

This is almost like a diagrammatic representation of a tier list that he wanted to show everyone. That was his point. He requoted himself from the peach boards with peach featured in it, but his numbers are all wrong, which he admitted rightfully on the first page of this thread.

He should change the OP, but he's not as active as this thread is moving, if evidence on the peach boards is anything to go by. Could it be that Edrees is misunderstood here, or are we all just overreacting? :?

 

[deepseadiva]

Peach has nothing to do with this thread.

Beyond the fact Edreese mains her, she wouldn't even be on there. Not to mention it's a placement he probably spent 10 seconds on.

Geeze.

It's some arbitrary fun concept. How about we discuss that.

 

[ExCeL 52]

Aww man .. I had alot of fun trying to back up Peach..
But I just couldn't stand up to Yuna's almighty power of words.
Epic Fail.

But seriously Yuna.. I still wanna **** you hardcore up the booty on Wi-fi.. you ****ing up smash Zelda spammer :D

I just liked the concept... After thinking through it .. of course its not even close to correct.

 

[Hive]

didn't edreese say in the op that it was only a rough estimate of his own thoughts?
Why do we need a whole page of multiquotes to tell us how its not super accurate and not your opinions and how "sharp" you are or whatever for figuring it out when its stuff that has already been said...?
It was never something to argue over.
And anyone who thinks peach isn't a tourney viable character has clearly never encountered a good peach... in norcal she places consistently in the top 10 for example, and we don't have a bad player pool!

 

[Wogrim]

a) Lol Peach bias
b) If my C. Falcon has beaten Snakes does that mean he's not low tier?

 

[Hive]

no, it should matter how well he does on average in matchups and how well he can place in tourneys.
Peach does well on both accounts... captain falcon doesn't.
and of course its slightly biased, but its not just* bias either, edreese is basing it off of his experiences in tourneys, his opinions are reasonable...
dark peach and others have said peach can compete with snakes at top levels of play, its not just wild assumption.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Even in large tournaments, Azen uses Peach in many of his early matches.

 

[Hive]

Even in large tournaments, Azen uses Peach in many of his early matches.

xactly peach has a lot of capacity people underestimate...

of course azen is good all around, but that doesn't mean he can pick up say bowser and win in a major tournament... him doing well with peach (as well as others) is not just a show of player skill, the character must have that potential as well...

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Yes, but you see, neither Diddy Kong or Lucario are bad characters. They are both viablish. Yet not even Azen can win major tournaments as Lucario (and neither can anyone else), so Lucario isn't very viable. Diddy Kong, more viable and definitely capable of winning (better than Lucario). Neither NinjaLink or Azen are doing anything out of the ordinary with those two characters. They just happen to be taking them to their limit.

I went to Luc boards to check this, that is false.

Lucario has won major level tournements.

 

[Hive]

lucario has done well in quite a few tourneys I thought (?) what tourneys exactly were people looking at that would draw them to the conclusion that he isn't viable?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

lucario has done well in quite a few tourneys I thought (?) what tourneys exactly were people looking at that would draw them to the conclusion that he isn't viable?

Yuna ment Lucario was viablish, meaning he can do well, but not as good as Diddy who has been winning more frequently than Lucario.

He's not saying he isn't viable, more so Diddy is just better.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

lucario has done well in quite a few tourneys I thought (?) what tourneys exactly were people looking at that would draw them to the conclusion that he isn't viable?

Yuna makes some strong claims. In fact, when he makes claims about specific facts, he is often completely wrong (I'll never know why no one calls him on it). Yuna didn't believe Azen could win major tournaments with Lucario or something, to which I responded that then there would be only one player capable of winning major tournaments, M2K, with only the character MK being able to win a major tourney as a result. Thus, I now need my brain replaced, according to Yuna and a couple others.

 

[Hive]

ic imo diddy is probably a bit better overall, but i don't think that means lucario isn't viable by any means. its also hard to tell since there are so many more diddy players than lucarios. Azen does well in tourneys with lucario bc lucario is a good character, as well as azen being a good player (which can be said of anyone who does well in major tourneys)

@halloween captain- lol i agree with you! ^^

 

[Yuna]

That won't work.

There are only a few players that can win major tournaments, pretty much just Ally, M2K, Azen, and NinjaLink. They are all super-good, in some cases on a whole different level than the players immediately below them, and could probably win with any character in the top ten, if not beyond that. Anyone below them cannot win major tournaments because of them. Thus, the highest level of play, roughly equal skill level, and, most importantly, "can win major tournaments" is pretty much isolated to these guys (and the characters they use).

You still need your brain transplant. What part of it's about the characters was too hard for you to understand? We've been through this already back when AlphaZealot babbled on about how Marth was the only character capable of consistently winning tournaments based on the prowess of three players.

Yuna, quit TL and focus on your Marth imo.

This is what I plan on doing.

I don't think Peach has anything to do with his point.

This is almost like a diagrammatic representation of a tier list that he wanted to show everyone. That was his point. He requoted himself from the peach boards with peach featured in it, but his numbers are all wrong, which he admitted rightfully on the first page of this thread.

He should change the OP, but he's not as active as this thread is moving, if evidence on the peach boards is anything to go by. Could it be that Edrees is misunderstood here, or are we all just overreacting? :?

The key point here is that none of what you just quoted was in the OP, making the OP total baloney.

And anyone who thinks peach isn't a tourney viable character has CLEARLY never encountered a good peach... in norcal she places consistently in the top 10 for example, and we don't have a bad player pool!

Major tournaments. Nobody cares about minor tournaments with small concentrations of skill. Also, "placing 10 consistently" =/= can win tournaments

Even in large tournaments, Azen uses Peach in many of his early matches.

Key word being early matches. Why does he not stick with her? Oh, that's right, because the further up the skill ladder his opponents are, the more likely it is Azen's Peach will lose (in direct contradiction to Edrees' theory)!

I went to Luc boards to check this, that is false.

Lucario has won major level tournements.

I haven't really cared about Lucario much to keep tabs on him for the past few months. I concede this point. I'm assuming all of those major wins came out of Azen, so it's just Azen doing really well with Lucario with no other Lucario coming even close to replicating his success (still)?

Yuna makes some strong claims. In fact, when he makes claims about specific facts, he is often completely wrong[/quote9
Strong lies from someone who claimed Captain Falcon was viable several months into Brawl's lifespan.

YYuna didn't believe Azen could win major tournaments with Lucario or something, to which I responded that then there would be only one player capable of winning major tournaments, M2K, with only the character MK being able to win a major tourney as a result.

There was a consistently missing in there. As in "Not even Azen has been able to consistently win major tournaments as him."

As in, even when wielded by Azen, Lucario seldom wins major tournaments of any scale.

ic imo diddy is probably a bit better overall, but i don't think that means lucario isn't viable by any means.

What part of "Nobody said that" did you not undestand?

Azen does well in tourneys with lucario bc lucario is a good character, as well as azen being a good player (which can be said of anyone who does well in major tourneys)

Azen does well with Low Tiers which crappy match-ups all the time. Azen doing well with one character does not necessarily mean the character is good (at least not as good as Azen makes them look).

Azen does what he does due to superior mindgames, mindgames he uses to overcome inherent character flaws. Now, while Lucario isn't a bad character, how many people can do what Azen does with Lucario? Meanwhile, how many people can do well with the SS, SS and A Tiers, much better than as Lucario?

Tell me, how many Lucario players are able to replicate Azen's success?

When considering whether someone is viable, one must also look at how good a characte is comparison to all others. Lucario can be good. Meanwhile, the others are just that much better.

 

[Hive]

azen does well with low tiers, sure. but he doesn't win with low tiers. peach and lucario both have that potential and have been shown to have done so in tourney. peach's success isn't just limited to minor tourneys, i suggest looking at edreeses, sky's, darkpeaches, and nikok's tourneys if you think otherwise...

you can't just disqualify azen being good with azen bc he is azen. the point is to see how well a character can do at their potential, and in the case of the graph this goes to the perfect human potential. so making a comparison of how well a character can do when perfected and then omitting people who play "too perfectly with them in your opinion" is hypocritical and it turns the analysis into you comparing good players with opponents who still aren't limited by your ideas of too good.

 

[Yuna]

azen does well with low tiers, sure. but he doesn't win with low tiers.

That was not the argument. The argument was that since Azen is doing really well with Lucario, Lucario must be a very good character, based solely on Azen's mastery of Lucario. Doesn't fly.

peach and lucario both have that potential and have been shown to have done so in tourney.

Really? Who has come even close to doing what Azen (and lesser Lucario players) have been able to pull off with Peach? How many major tournaments has Peach even placed Top 10 in?

peach's success isn't just limited to minor tourneys, i suggest looking at edreeses, sky's, darkpeaches, and nikok's tourneys if you think otherwise...

Last time I checked, a few months back, Peach had, what, three wins, none of them being major in any way.

you can't just disqualify azen being good with azen bc he is azen.

I asked you for further proof of Lucario being very, very good by naming other Lucario players being able to come even close to being as successful as Azen with Lucario. Stop sidestepping that challenge.

the point is to see how well a character can do at their potential

Which is why I'm telling you to look at the characters, not isolated playes.

and in the case of the graph this goes to the perfect human potential.

And the case is all wrong, because it's claiming that bad characters do better the further up the skill ladder you go.

so making a comparison of how well a character can do when perfected and then omitting people who play "too perfectly with them in your opinion" is hypocritical and it turns the analysis into you comparing good players with opponents who still aren't limited by your ideas of too good.

No, I'm asking you to look at the bigger picture instead of just one single player.

Also, as for Peach's match-ups, Mr. Game & Watch totally slipped my mind before.

 

[deepseadiva]

Major tournaments. Nobody cares about minor tournaments with small concentrations of skill. Also, "placing 10 consistently" =/= can win tournaments

I'd like to point out some larger tournament results, all in the past 6 months:

Dark.Pch
9th out of 65 (Mass Madness 12) 10/4/08

EdreesesPieces
5th out of 56 (Aznforce5, Southern California) 8/3/08
9th out of 84 (Oxnard Brawl/Melee tournament, Southern Cal) 8/16/08
9th out of 81 (Race's 4th garage tournament : Dream bout) 8/23/08
13 out of 303 (Axis gaming tournament Emeryville, CA) 8/30/08
4th out of 47 (Palmdale biweeklies 1 Palmdale, CA) 9/20/08
5th out of 82 (Quiznos presents brawl 3 Cerritos, CA) 9/28/08
7th out of 112 (HOBO 11 Houston, TX) 10/4/08
7th out of 104 (Race Brawl Garage Tourney V : Smashtoberfest. Yorba Linda, CA) 10/18/08

Niko_K
9th out of 78 (Only in Niagara 2) 11/09/08
9th out of 62 (Only in Niagara 4) 12/21/08

I really can go on. Peach does well in large scale tournaments. As a board, we even came to the conclusion it's likely she would never win one, but always high placings.

Please, anyone referring to us "rabid fanboys," I request some research be done first.

Now, how about we discuss... oh, how about the original concept of the OP instead of teeny details?

 

[J4pu]

Low tier characters apparently have worse than 50:50 with Snake no matter what.

I think the MK bump occurs when the player can grasp spacing and understands how to gimp.

 

[Yuna]

4th out of 47 (Palmdale biweeklies 1 Palmdale, CA) 9/20/08

Please remove all tournaments of this kind from the list and then I'll review it. "Major tournaments" also assume a high concentration of skill. Merely having a high number of entrants is meaningless.

Unless this biweekly magically had 16 national-level players.

I really can go on. Peach does well in large scale tournaments. As a board, we even came to the conclusion it's likely she would never win one, but always high placings.

Ah, but you see, my entire argument has always been about winning major tournaments, not being able to place Top 8 at a handful of tournaments when wielded by some of the best players in the United States when facing down possibly feeble competition.

When I look at tournament results, I do not merely want to know how well a player and character placed, I want to know what players/characters that player and their character beat on their way there.

Now, how about we discuss... oh, how about the original concept of the OP instead of teeny details?

I've already stated one jillion times over that it is:
Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney.Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney.Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney. Pure baloney.

 

[Hive]

peach does well in tournamnet... i told you to see those ppl bc they do well with her. i'm not just throwing it out there bc it was just some random guess, its your own tourney data that is limited. look at edreeses peach results for hobo 11 and axis above for example, two large tourneys, no one does that well with any character that isn't viable in tourneys that large.
i'm not sidestepping the lucario issue at all, i just didn't think you could omit azen's records with lucario bc he was "too good." of course if you take out the best ppl with any character their character looks like they have less potential. i'm pretty sure kitamerby, samuelson, kurohito do well with lucario as well (which is a lot considering how few relatively experienced lucarios there are!).
you say not to look at isolated players but anytime you look at the potential of a character you have to look at the isolated results of certain players, you can't avoid that. omitting what azen can do with lucario is dumb when it shows perfectly that lucario is viable.
where exactly do you get your information on who is viable btw? random tourney results or do you have much experience in playing brawl competitively?

edit: and don't flame on halloween captain! what he is saying is perfectly reasonable, just bc you disagree with it doesn't mean its stupid.

 

[J4pu]

There's 4 people from Pdale on Socal's PR
I'm sure there were a few other good (PR level) attendees, making it likely that around 7-9 (I more or less pulled this from my arse I suppose) "good" players were there.

It's not 16 but it's quite a few.

And the case is all wrong, because it's claiming that bad characters do better the further up the skill ladder you go.

I only see it saying this for Peach, which I thought was a joke
EDIT- nvm it does say that, the points on the graph are closer vertically at "perfect" than at "playing bad"

 

[deepseadiva]

Please remove all tournaments of this kind from the list and then I'll review it. "Major tournaments" also assume a high concentration of skill. Merely having a high number of entrants is meaningless.

Unless this biweekly magically had 16 national-level players.

Please see my edited posts, I greyed anything I doubted - tell me if you think something's off. I didn't attend all these tournaments you see.

If nothing else, we can ride on Edreeses Hobo showing.

Ah, but you see, my entire argument has always been about winning major tournaments, not being able to place Top 8 at a handful of tournaments when wielded by some of the best players in the United States when facing down possibly feeble competition.

I was also answering this:

Really? Who has come even close to doing what Azen (and lesser Lucario players) have been able to pull off with Peach? How many major tournaments has Peach even placed Top 10 in?

I've already stated one jillion times over that it is:
Pure baloney.

I still like the general idea. ^^

 

[Yuna]

peach does well in tournamnet... i told you to see those ppl bc they do well with her. i'm not just throwing it out there bc it was just some random guess, its your own tourney data that is limited. look at edreeses peach results for hobo 11 and axis above for example, two large tourneys, no one does that well with any character that isn't viable in tourneys that large.

Who did the Peach players beat to get there? And what were their projected chances at actually winning the **** thing? That is all I care about when I talk about, you know, chances of winning major tournaments.

i'm not sidestepping the lucario issue at all, i just didn't think you could omit azen's records with lucario bc he was "too good."

I told you to omit Azen's record when? I told you to bring other Lucario players into this, that Azen is special and that we therefore should not base all of our impressions of Lucario on Azen's record.

i'm pretty sure kitamerby, samuelson, kurohito do well with lucario as well.

Bring in some proof, please.

you say not to look at isolated players but anytime you look at the potential of a character you have to look at the isolated results of certain players, you can't avoid that.

But not the isolated results of one and oneb player only.

 

[Dream Chaser]

Refering to OP, a bad metaknight should be lower than low/mid tiers because a bad metaknight will die very quickly. Many of the heavy hitters are down there tier. It would only take a few hits to kill metaknight, even players who are considered not very skilled will get enough hits in on a bad metaknight.

 

[Hive]

peach has the potential to win major tourneys! those major tourneys show this, yea, so what if edreese got 13th out of over 300? that's amazing! It basically rounds to 1/50! no one gets that high if their character isn't tourney viable! if he won two three more games he would have won the tourney, its obvious she has the potential from these results. Even if she has a few disadvantages matches ahead of her at that point no one there is going to be an automatic loss for her, so if played right peach could win. if she got 2nd of 303 she would still be tourney viable even if she didn't win, she lost in the finals, sure, but that doesn't mean she didn't have the capacity to win. stop asking me to pull out tourney results, and go look for them for yourself. ( in lucario boards maybe, or you can go to aib too and look at each characters tourney records as well.)

 

[Brinzy]

stuff

13th out of 300 is a very good place to be in, but it's not 1st.

"But it doesn't matter!"

It does if you want to get the argument right.

 

[Yuna]

peach has the potential to win major tourneys! those major tourneys show this, yea, so what if edreese got 13th out of over 300? that's amazing! It basically rounds to 1/50! no one gets that high if their character isn't tourney viable! if he won two three more games he would have won the tourney, its obvious she has the potential from these results. Even if she has a few disadvantages matches ahead of her at that point no one there is going to be an automatic loss for her, so if played right peach could win. if she got 2nd of 303 she would still be tourney viable even if she didn't win, she lost in the finals, sure, but that doesn't mean she didn't have the capacity to win. stop asking me to pull out tourney results, and go look for them for yourself. ( in lucario boards maybe, or you can go to aib too and look at each characters tourney records as well.)

What part of "Size is not everything" was too hard for you to understand?

What matters is the concentration of skill. How many national-level players were there? And how many such players (playing which characters) did the Peaches beat on their way to their placements?

13th is far off from 1st as well.