Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO

I've never been able to keep a sheik out as ivy. As <3 said, sheik has the tools to get in fairly easily

typh said:

LOL at suggesting you can run out the clock on anyone with ivysaur

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heh, i did kinda do that huh?

The whole time thinking "PT as a whole couldn't run out the clock"

You can't play gay with PT. :/

typh said:

LOL at suggesting you can run out the clock on anyone with ivysaur

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You can try Ganondorf. He doesn't have an approach. Just stand before him and shield.

Technologikall said:

You can try Ganondorf. He doesn't have an approach. Just stand before him and shield.

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wut

He'd just Flame Choke you if you stand and shield.

naw, spot dodge it if you just focus a bit harder than normal, it has some startuplag

I wasn't suggesting you run the clock out with ivysaur, I was making reference to Mata saying to space and win with ivysaur "takes too long" and I made the observation that this is Brawl and its very common for the clock to be run out. Ivy lacks the ground speed, air speed, fall speed...oh God this is depressing. She lacks everything to run away. On the other hand her forward roll is pretty ok.

Choosing Your Starter: SNAKE

Next character is Snake.

Chart says: Ivysaur and Charizard

My thoughts:

Squirtle- Has always done best for me because I like water gunning his projectiles away plus his grab game is pretty good against Snake. He's also much quicker that him, the only draw back is that Snake is a powerful opponent and his trap/projectiles have awesome knock back on them.

Ivysaur- After going all Ivysaur at Voodoo Smash, as well as I did, I went against our power ranked Snake player and got owned. Also Ivy does not like his traps/projectiles, it's bad enough that they have wicked knock back but it makes it worse that they are fire based attacks so in my opinion I want to say don't start Ivysaur.

Charizard- I don' see much harm in starting Charizard, he can spike a recovering Snake and has a good grab game as well to exploit on Snake. On the ground I think Charizard is good, just watch out for traps (duh), in the air I'm not too confident with Charizard however that is my personal preference.

Also I'm taking leave for the whole Thanksgiving holiday starting Friday and won't be back until not this Sunday but the following Sunday. What that means is that I wont have internet to see how much progress is being made; though a BooksAMillion they have Wifi so I may try to go over there with my laptop to check email and stuff while I'm over there.

You should turn this into a switch order thread.

I don't think you can start anyone but squirtle here. Charizard gets wrecked by d-throw so on most stages you won't want him in, especially at low percent at the beginning of the match. The issue with starting squirtle is that you'll have serious troubles KOing before you get fatigued, which against snake means you'll probably die first. That being said, squirtle is still the best choice, since you definitely want to maximize your time with him.

I tried out ivysaur start for a while, to let ivy/char build up damage and then have a fresh squirtle come in to KO, but it hasn't worked out that well

I put a lot of thought into switch order for snake but nothing helps because snake is stuuuupid

lolsnake

Like t-block said, there's no reason to start anyone but Squirtle. If you feel confident about your Ivysaur, maybe...but definitely not Charizard. Sure, he can space Snake pretty effectively, but Snake just has to grab you. GG.

I switch out Charizard. It's hard to get past Snakes camp with zard...and of course there's that down throw. I love squirtle in this matchup. Play patiently and punish, and when he gets away from you and starts to camp, water gun him off. Best case scenario, he falls off the ledge with a nade and can't grab the ledge and you beggin your gimp. Worst case, he grabs the ledge (which is still awesome cause snakes don't have many options from the ledge. If you're patient and read what he does on the ledge, it's easy to get a few more hits.

k now that i'm not on my ipod i can type more

ivysaur isn't useless in this matchup, but you can't really expect him to do much. his role in this matchup is to camp snake out and stall so squirtle can regain his stamina. razor leaf is actually decent against snake because of what it does to grenades. you need to watch out for that dacus, but if you're camping properly you should be able to react to it in time. practice the matchup and you'll learn what distance you need to maintain. charizard basically has to play the same role, except it's a little more dangerous because of that d-throw - i usually send him in at high percents and play super carefully (ie- don't get grabbed).

so that brings us to squirtle. there's something to be said for having fresh squirtle come in on a high percent snake, since he actually has the easiest time getting the KO. that's why i tried ivysaur start, but it's pretty risky.

Maybe it's because my squirtle is sometimes really sub-par, but I always just suck with him in this matchup. It seems like i always die really early and I have such a hard time approaching. How would you suggest approaching with squirtle?

I keep a water gun charged. When he gets grenades out, watergun the grenades back to him and try approaching while he's busy with them

If you play carefully to avoid a grab (or at least more than one), I would hold charizard for the first stock as long as possible and use squirtle the second stock

The problem with avoiding the grab with zard is that we can't normally compete with snakes zoning anyway. The best way to avoid the grab leaves us in a terrible position in terms of nade and c4 pressure.

if you're gonna start ivysaur, you need to keep ivysaur out as long as possible, and switch to charizard only at 90% or so. you need to do enough damage for fresh squirtle to KO for this to work. if you can't get that done as ivysaur, then you would have been better off starting squirtle. as toby said, if you're playing defensively as charizard, there's not much you can do against snake.

Squirtle Ivysaur Squirtle is how I play this match up, and it works pretty well for me.

TL;DR version: Start with Ivy. Keep her out or switch to Charizard depending on percents. Once Charizard dies, use Squirtle to rack up damage and Ivy to KO. Repeat.


I actually start Ivy more often than not here..

Razorleaf, as T-Block mentioned, pretty much stops Snake's Grenades from touching you if you time them to the rythm of his throws. Snake has to approach, and that gives Ivy a slight edge. Also, snake is an immensely heavy character, making him easy to rack up damage on with bullet seed if you can land it. (You might be able to hit him out of a DACUS, which he'll likely be using to approach. Not sure what the momentum would do though.)

Fire Weakness doesn't bother Ivy as badly in this matchup as one might initially think... Grenades are stopped by Razorleaf, as mentioned before, DACUS is stopped by Bullet Seed potentially, or a myriad of other moves if I'm wrong and you're quick to respond. The little mine things he drops can be quite annoying, especially if he sticks it on you, but he has to have a chance to activate it before it'll explode. The other three fire moves (FSmash, DSmash, Rocket-Thingy) are next to never used, and are easy enough to evade/punish if Snake decides to try them.

Nair OoS + Tall Character = Enough said. You can lead Nair into bullet seed as well, easily enough. Great way to rack up damage agianst any opponent who is at least midweight, and it does wonders against Snake.

I also think Ivy has a better airgame, considering how bad Snake's is. It's not hard to force him into a jump with Razorleaf, and once he's there, his options are severely limited. Fair is his best bet for clashing with Ivy, but if he botches it and you land before he does, theres just enough landing lag I believe to turn him into USmash bait.

Sad thing is, that's pretty much your best shot at a KO. Because Snake's so heavy, by the time you get him into the damage range of Ivy's other kill moves, she'll likely be too fatigued to KO properly. At this point, it really depends on how the match is going on what you do. If snake is at high percents and Ivy's still sitting at below, say 90%, keep Ivy in, even after fatigue. If you nail a lucky KO on Snake, Ivy's damage racking potential is least affected by fatigue, and it won't be terribly difficult to get Snake up to at least low-mid percents. If Ivy ever gets above 90-100% or so, with Snake also reading pretty high, try to find a safe way to switch into Charizard, and try to nail a KO before you get creamed. Worst case scenario, Charizard goes down first and you get a fresh squirtle for an easy KO. Always keep Charizard out, even if by some miracle you live to see fatigue.

Squirtle does exceptionally well against Snake if played defensively. Alot that needs to be said about Squirtle has already been said, and since Ivysaur was my main point, I'll keep this short. Use squirtly like you used Ivysaur before: To rack up damage. Like Ivy, by the time you reach killing percents with Squirtle, your moves will likely be stale/Squirtle will be fatigued and you'll need to switch for the KO. If Ivy was switched out, try and stall as long as possible. If Ivy for some reason got KO'd, then don't hesitate to switch, regardless of percent, as getting KO'd (For some ******** reason) completely refreshes the knocked out Pokemon. Snake can send Sqiurtle flying alot sooner than most would like. Once you've pulled out Ivysaur, just take it from the top, all over again.

Crouching owns razor leaf lol. My friend is a snake main, and he figured that out long ago -.-. Getting a grenade past a razor leaf is a lot easier than one might expect if you just crouch under the leaves.

Plus, cooking should get past the leaves, i think. Trying to maximize Squirtle seems best, but Snake is in general a bad matchup for us. That said, he should have a generally harder time hitting Squirtle than the other two, and the fire resistance helps, plus watergun is actually really good against Snake since a lot of his camping moves require him to hold still (guided rocket, dsmash, fsmash) and Squirtle has a better in close game, in my opinion. Squirtle seems like pretty much our only option, since the other two get butt-***** so badly.

Fire resistance doesn't really help Squirtle...you're gonna die to u-tilt at 90% anyways. And yeah, you can't just spam Ivysaur's leaves and stop grenades completely. You're still gonna have to do some dodging yourself since he'll get some past you... you gotta be smart about throwing leaves too, since it's not hard to just time one past you if you're spamming mindlessly.

Yreah, but I'm just saying Squirtle is best virtually by default.

T-block said:

Fire resistance doesn't really help Squirtle...you're gonna die to u-tilt at 90% anyways. And yeah, you can't just spam Ivysaur's leaves and stop grenades completely. You're still gonna have to do some dodging yourself since he'll get some past you... you gotta be smart about throwing leaves too, since it's not hard to just time one past you if you're spamming mindlessly.

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I think I specified timing Razorleaf to the rythm of his throws, not just spamming mindlessly. Didn't know his could avoid them by crouching though... That complicates things. o.O

Squirtle I think dies way too early from Snake's tilts though, as you mentioned, and except maybe squirtle's F-Tilt (Being Optimistic..), I don't think out little turtle has anything to outreach Snake's U-Tilt hitbox, and it's not all that slow to come out.. Watergun, though, does work wonders.

I think overall, it depends on preference. I still believe Ivy is a viable starter.

Ivysaur is definitely a viable starter, but one shouldn't underestimate Squirtle. If you can get some early damage in before switching to Ivysaur (and you will - it's bloody Squirtle, man), it'll make the plant-dinosaur's job a lot easier: if Ivysaur has to rack up the damage all by herself, fatigue will kick in before Snake is at KOable percentage.

Only thing I'd add to that Laos is I think it's a good idea to switch into Ivy as early as possible. Switching too late could get Ivy KO'd and leave you stuck with a Charizard at 0% and a fatigued squirtle. I'd say, switch no later than about, 70%. Squirtle does deal out some serious hurt once he gets close, so Snake should be getting close to Ivy's kill percents at this point anyway.

The most important thing for this matchup, I think, is being able to keep the pokemon switch cycle:

1) Ivy to rack up damage, into Charizard at high %. Play til Charizard dies.
2) Squirtle to rack up damage/KO if you got some decent damage with Charizard...
3) And back into Ivy to KO/rack up damage, depending on what you need.
Repeat the cycle.

Where you begin the cycle is just a matter of preference. Squirtle and Ivy for potential starters.

The problem with that is you're always getting the KO after you die, so you'll lose in the end. I think the ideal switch order is like this:

Start Squirtle - if you get the first kill, switch to Ivysaur and camp your heart out. Switch to Charizard at high percents and tank until you're KO'd. Hopefully you do enough damage and stay out long enough that Squirtle will be fresh when he comes in and can KO before he gets fatigued, and that'll be two of his stocks lost to your one.

But that's waaaay too idyllic. It's more likely that you'll die first. You should have done enough damage as Squirtle for Ivysaur to get the KO (probably the toughest part of this strategy), then you camp like crazy. Your goal is to build up his percentage while staying out long enough to refresh Squirtle, which only takes 36 seconds if Squirtle is KO'd, and switch to Charizard somewhere in there. If you do this well enough, Squirtle should be able to come in on the last stock and get the KO quickly, then it's one Squirtle stock against one Snake stock, which is much easier than 3 stocks vs 3. This is where I always lose though... it'd probably be best to camp as Squirtle as well, or you could try for the gimp kill. If you go against him in a damage->KO race, you'll probably lose.

Isn't the problem with starting Ivy the fact that you can get KO'd so early because of his poor recovery?

Yep. Ftilt>edgehog = -1 stock.

Ivysaur loses to DACUS alone.

Outside of that, though, it's not impossible, but it's clearly in Snake's favor. If he walks toward you, you're in for a lot of trouble.

Squirtle does really well in this matchup. I used to hate it, but now I love it. You just have to make sure not to take too many unnecessary risks.

You know what's refreshing? F-Air -> F-Air -> F-Air.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOumvsb1NkM&feature=sub

Just do this to Snake.
/Kith

The most depressing thing about that vid is that it looked like the Snake barely even touched Kith's Squirtle, yet it had still copped 70% when it got the KO.

Reflex shouldn't fair be saved? It just seems impossible to me to get the first KO on a Snake with a move like usmash or dthrow because of the ridiculously high perfcent he has to be at, and factor in fatigue and the fact you would be in his utilt's KO percent range for alot of that time, it seems impractical that Squirtle would ever get the first stock.

So how do you guys generally get the first KO with Squirtle?

Dre. said:

Reflex shouldn't fair be saved? It just seems impossible to me to get the first KO on a Snake with a move like usmash or dthrow because of the ridiculously high perfcent he has to be at, and factor in fatigue and the fact you would be in his utilt's KO percent range for alot of that time, it seems impractical that Squirtle would ever get the first stock.

So how do you guys generally get the first KO with Squirtle?

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My philosophy is that you should hardly ever "save" KO moves. If you're outplaying them, you'll kill them eventually, so don't limit yourself if you can help it.

If you watch that video, you'll notice that Kith only got hit when Snake spotdodged at the correct time. Whiffed grabs and getting shieldgrabbed is how Squirtle gets hit in his matchup. Avoid that stuff, and you should stay alive for a while.

I regularly KO Snake at 180-ish% with things like D-Air and U-Air just because if I'm not getting touched, it doesn't matter how much damage I have to do.

Yay this video finally got posted lol. Rage quit ftw

how good is that snake? That was pretty crazy kith, I'll watch it again later for sure.

Urgh why am I so bad at this matchup lol

MVD is definitely a pretty good snake. He goes to a lot of tournaments down here in SFL, and that was our first time playing XD

agreeing with reflex that snake DACUS is stupid

you can predict it and punish though. like, just spam jab if you think you have a good read on it lol. charizard can rock smash (like kith did in his vid). squirtle can do anything since he's squirtle.

reflex your strategy only really works if you are outplaying the snake by a good margin. chances are that squirtle won't be around to KO a snake at 180% (unless you just switched to him, of course).

snake is such a stupid character. imo juggling snake is really important in this matchup, otherwise you simply cannot do enough damage in time.

also camping snake with squirtle works pretty well but watch out for that dumb DACUS

Do Snake's usually try to recover high like that? Because that's where like half of that damage came from. XD Only snake I ever played consistanly. (Only Snake main I know irl. ) always tries to recover low against squirtle. Dunno if my friend's an anomoly, or if he just knows where not to fight squirtle.

If Snake does usually recover high, I just might jump on the squirtle bandwagon. o.O

Oh, and T-block, when I outlined my switch pattern earlier, I tried not to repeat my previous post where I had semi-outlined it. And thus, left a little bit out. Goes like this.

Ivy's out first, to rack up damage. (Again, it might just be the Snake I play, but bullet seed is actually pretty easy to land.) Keep Ivy out until you get him to a kill percent. If Ivy's below 90%, leave her out and go ahead and nab the KO. if she's about 90%, find a safe switch into Charizard and KO him there. Other than getting techchased, Charizard does decent against Snake, and at higher percents, I find Snake more likely to go for a kill move than techchase, in which case you have the tools to keep yourself alive for at least a while... After nabbing that KO with either, keep Charizard out there until he gets KO'd

Once Charizard goes down, it's Squirtle time. Rack up damage, then as soon as you can, switch to Ivy for the KO. Rack up damage again with Ivy. Either KO him there, or switch into Charizard at high percents to finish the job. Worst case scenario, Charizard goes down, and Squirtle comes in for an easy sweep.

That's the way about 90% of my matches with my friend go. At least, 90% of the ones I win. When I start squirtle, it's basically the same thing, except the cycle starts where Squirtle comes out. He usually beats me though if he manages to screw up my switch rythm, and it seems to happen more often when I start Squirtle... Again though, it could be just my Snake.

Sounds like the Snake you play isn't very experienced =P What region are you from?

Snake's recover high to avoid getting gimped. Recovering low will usually mean getting grabbed out of his cypher, which is a guaranteed stock against Squirtle (grab, don't pummel, let him release, then water gun his c4 recovery, if you didn't know).

Toby and I were talking about how important gimping Snake is in this matchup, and it's true. If you look at the switch order I follow, we're actually always slightly behind Snake. If Squirtle can do just a little bit more, we should be able to win. I'd say if we can get a low-mid percent gimp on Snake our chances of winning go from 10% to like 80%. The numbers are arbitrary, but you get the idea.

Oh, I'll have to keep that in mind next time I fight him. XD I live in the Southeastern US, but he's not ranked or anything, he just plays at his school. What he usually tries to do is grab the ledge whenever I'm squirtle, and I'm not great at using the tiny turtle to gimp from below the edge.

Back to Ivy, what gimping tools do you think she has? I can usually land a Vinewhip while he's in his Cypher, and I'll usually tether the edge if I think he's coming in low...

If he recovers low, you can always just grab him in the same way. When he recovers high, there's not much Ivy can do to gimp. If he's close enough you could try d-air... otherwise I'd just let him land and try to predict his recovery to connect with a u-air/u-smash/f-smash/grab.

Oh yeah, Snakes will always recover high. Count on it.