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Choosing Your Starter: IKE take TWO
- Thread starter Bomber7
- Start date
What exactly do you mean about sheik being floaty?
She has the 2nd fastest falling speed in the game, making her more susceptible to squirtle's Utilt Lock at low percents as well as bulletseed (without the first hit).
She is a combo and gimping character. I wouldn't start with charizard, he can get slapped around pretty hard at low percents, but sheik does have some trouble killing and he is a great way to finish out a stock.
Ivysaur also may have some trouble with being gimped by needles and fair, but he has a decent combo/gimp game on sheik as well. On stages that make gimping difficult, he may have trouble killing her unless she does something very punishable.
Squirtle would be the best starter here. He can really combo sheik hard and water gun is extremely effective for gimping her Up B. If you edgehog the chain/explosion you can ledge hop a reverse water gun and get her even if she lands onstage.
Start with squirtle stock 1, use him until he dies. Ivy low percent stock 2, Zard high percents stock 2 and Squirtle for stock 3 again.
I'm favoring squirtle here unless I have overlooked something like devastating CG followups
Edit: She has CG-upsmash on squirtle, don't get grabbed.
She has the 2nd fastest falling speed in the game, making her more susceptible to squirtle's Utilt Lock at low percents as well as bulletseed (without the first hit).
She is a combo and gimping character. I wouldn't start with charizard, he can get slapped around pretty hard at low percents, but sheik does have some trouble killing and he is a great way to finish out a stock.
Ivysaur also may have some trouble with being gimped by needles and fair, but he has a decent combo/gimp game on sheik as well. On stages that make gimping difficult, he may have trouble killing her unless she does something very punishable.
Squirtle would be the best starter here. He can really combo sheik hard and water gun is extremely effective for gimping her Up B. If you edgehog the chain/explosion you can ledge hop a reverse water gun and get her even if she lands onstage.
Start with squirtle stock 1, use him until he dies. Ivy low percent stock 2, Zard high percents stock 2 and Squirtle for stock 3 again.
I'm favoring squirtle here unless I have overlooked something like devastating CG followups
Edit: She has CG-upsmash on squirtle, don't get grabbed.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Someone correct me if I'm wrong here, but I was told that Shiek has an ftilt lock on Squirtle that makes the MU pretty easy for Shiek. I tried looking around the Shiek boards for some proof, but I couldn't find any.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Start with Ivy.
Each pokemon is able to DI out of it after 3 hits or so. Squirtle at mid-close to high % takes only like 2 hits to set him up for an up smash KO.
saviorslegacy
My avater is not a Sheik avatar.
Squirtle= fast faller and thus f=tilt locked
Bad idea to be Squirtle at low percents.
T-block
B2B TST
yeah sheik has an f-tilt lock that ends in a tipper u-smash. it's not gonna ko you, but it'll get you to a good 70%.
charizard on the other hand, can't be f-tilt locked
the sheik i play tends to needle camp my charizard since she can't really do much.
charizard on the other hand, can't be f-tilt locked
the sheik i play tends to needle camp my charizard since she can't really do much.
Toby.
Smash Master
Omfg No No No No No
MaTA
Smash Ace
alright i have a ton of sheik experience, he is actually really good. goes by <3 or LessThanThree
I always start out charizard, even though he is a little bigger he can do a ton. If sheik Ftilts you, you can rocksmash out of the usually getting them around 40 damage or so because it'll hit twice. (same with ivys bullet seed) but you can run in there and block a lot of her spacing and get a decent grab. You can also Up B out of her ftilt with higher percent. Flame thrower is awesome for keeping her off the edge while recovering.
Squirlte is good despite being caught in her Ftilt, he can combo her and follow her off the edge fairly well hitting with a good fair to kill her.
Ivy is okay, just watch out for the needles because he is so floaty and try to stay out of the air or off the stage becuase shiek can gimp him super easy. Get some solid grabs in and Ftilts to do damage. Space her really smart with bairs.
you can also DI out of her ftilt to upsmash so you dont get hit by that.
I always start out charizard, even though he is a little bigger he can do a ton. If sheik Ftilts you, you can rocksmash out of the usually getting them around 40 damage or so because it'll hit twice. (same with ivys bullet seed) but you can run in there and block a lot of her spacing and get a decent grab. You can also Up B out of her ftilt with higher percent. Flame thrower is awesome for keeping her off the edge while recovering.
Squirlte is good despite being caught in her Ftilt, he can combo her and follow her off the edge fairly well hitting with a good fair to kill her.
Ivy is okay, just watch out for the needles because he is so floaty and try to stay out of the air or off the stage becuase shiek can gimp him super easy. Get some solid grabs in and Ftilts to do damage. Space her really smart with bairs.
you can also DI out of her ftilt to upsmash so you dont get hit by that.
I don't know about you guys, but since I started to take PT seriously by playing him in tournies, I've found that Bair is not that great of a spacing tool. It's good but not really the best. What happens to be is that it's easily shielded and even if it does hit, it's really no good because it doesn't get knock back until higher percents. However I did find Bair is great to use when an opponent is on the ledge and trying to get up.
Magik0722
Smash Champion
what bair are you talking about exactly?
The back air on Ivysaur. But it's really irrelevant to our discussion for the most part unless Shiek has somewhat or an air game that can be put down my bair?
MaTA
Smash Ace
well i've had my avatar for a while now so yeah go for it...
but it is good for the single hit while they are on the ground. i wouldnt use it again while falling because he is to slow. but the initial hit is good.
but it is good for the single hit while they are on the ground. i wouldnt use it again while falling because he is to slow. but the initial hit is good.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
Dang you guys drinkin' that Haterade.
Laos Oman
Smash Cadet
I always find that it's best used for interrupting an opponent's moves. It's fast, disjointed, has ridiculous range and can be used while moving away from the enemy. It's pretty much a universal countermove.
Against Sheik, though, it's less than stellar...
Magik0722
Smash Champion
I find bair most useful against a grounded opponent
not spacing well enough maybe?
not spacing well enough maybe?
could be though I found that I'm getting a little better at my spacing abilities (with any character seeing as I go random now adays b/c I dont care too much about Brawl anymore). Ivysaur I can space decently with though not good enough of course against the guys I play against who are way better than me. I'm like at the mid rank while they are like top 10-15.
It's not about knockback or damage it's about spacing, just like how projectiles aren't worthless if they're powershielded, the point is to limit approaches or to force opponents into vulnerable positions, I know that's common knowledgve but people seem to think if a move doesn't doesn't do ood damage or knockback it's not good.
Plus doesn't the lack of knockback allow bair to sometimes string into ftilt? Correct me if i'm wrong.
If you get them just above the ground. Otherwise they can shield, and ftilt is definitely not safe on shield.
I think they are all good starters. Ivy to a lesser extent because he is easy to rack damage on and easy to camp.
Squirts wrecks sheik if you can keep presure up. definitely the harder of the three.
Charizard is probablly the best started rocksmash is a good inturupt to alot of sheik's little strings and crap. you can get big damage. and his grab game mean you have to be much less straight forward in your approaches.
Squirts wrecks sheik if you can keep presure up. definitely the harder of the three.
Charizard is probablly the best started rocksmash is a good inturupt to alot of sheik's little strings and crap. you can get big damage. and his grab game mean you have to be much less straight forward in your approaches.
You'd be amazed to see what Ivy can do in the hands of the right person. She can space really well and has a projectile which is pretty good too.
Concerning Charizard, I got no problem with him start, though I'm throwing out my personal opinion that doesn't mean a thing to this discussion and say that I have always thought of Charizard as an Ace in the hole so I'd save him for last and plus if he was first and got Ko'd I'd figure I would forget to switch to him or would be too preoccupied fighting my opponent to safely switch back to him. At leas with Ivy's limits, I can be like "Hey I need to switch and make a kill"
You can have charizard out twice though.
Toby.
Smash Master
This this this.
T-block
B2B TST
Razor Leaf isn't good =\ Sheik will have no problems outcamping you with needles.
Go with Squirtle/Charizard start imo. I used to always start Squirtle, and it worked fairly well, but lately Charizard has been great as well. The lack of f-tilt lock compared to f-tilt -> u-smash as Squirtle is a pretty big factor. Also, it's significantly harder for Sheik to kill Charizard than it is for Charizard to kill Sheik, so you can tank the first stock and you should be able to get her to high percents second stock by your first death, as long as you watch the gimps. Then you can send in Squirtle to get that KO.
MaTA
Smash Ace
razor leafing over the needles is pretty good. usually you'll get hit by some stray needles and the damage pretty much evens out.
Full charged needles do like 17% fresh iirc. Why would you take damage when you can just dodge or ps?
Step 1. Start as ivy, switch to zard at mid-high %. Ivy can break out of ftilt lock with bs invinci frames, and her lack of high knockback moves means she'll struggle to get off stage. Shiek won't kill zard reliably before 150%.
Step 2. Squirtle full life of 2nd stock, and let him do what he does best.
Step 3. Repeat step 1.
If you have a standard horrible ivy instead of an ivy that is still sh*t but does ok, then starting as squirtle and ivyzard battery 2nd stock will be better off for you.
Step 1. Start as ivy, switch to zard at mid-high %. Ivy can break out of ftilt lock with bs invinci frames, and her lack of high knockback moves means she'll struggle to get off stage. Shiek won't kill zard reliably before 150%.
Step 2. Squirtle full life of 2nd stock, and let him do what he does best.
Step 3. Repeat step 1.
If you have a standard horrible ivy instead of an ivy that is still sh*t but does ok, then starting as squirtle and ivyzard battery 2nd stock will be better off for you.
T-block
B2B TST
Why wouldn't you start as Charizard instead though? Also, I think you're underestimating Sheik's gimping ability slightly
MaTA
Smash Ace
i have a shiek main that plays in our group too, even if on the ground shiek can ftilt ivy about 2 times and if he reads you can grab you out of it hitting you in the air. and her air attacks come out pretty fast. and a slow person falling like ivy sucks really bad.
honestly its best to start charizard because he can live the longest out of the 3. he can defend shiek of the edge easier with his multiple jumps.
Ivy just takes to long and you have to play a spacing game. and yeah vermy fully charged needles do 17 but when you jump and throw a razor leave they arent going to charge all of them in time. your not going to take all that damage.
honestly its best to start charizard because he can live the longest out of the 3. he can defend shiek of the edge easier with his multiple jumps.
Ivy just takes to long and you have to play a spacing game. and yeah vermy fully charged needles do 17 but when you jump and throw a razor leave they arent going to charge all of them in time. your not going to take all that damage.
Just like to remind you guys from 25%, Sheik's ftilt has enough hitstun so that Ivy cannot break out with bs invincibility.
That is, unless the sheik stuffs up the ftilt.
Ivy only gets ftilt'd like 3 times before being able to jump out anyway; but that's pretty risky.
Sheik gets Ivy off stage fine with a dthrow to nair/fair.
Charizard is the best against ye ol sheik though.
That is, unless the sheik stuffs up the ftilt.
Ivy only gets ftilt'd like 3 times before being able to jump out anyway; but that's pretty risky.
Sheik gets Ivy off stage fine with a dthrow to nair/fair.
Charizard is the best against ye ol sheik though.
Sigh.
Ivy takes too long? This is Brawl. Run the clock out, who cares. Have to play a spacing game? EVERY MATCH with EVERY CHARACTER you should be playing a spacing game. Hit them from the safest distance, whilst not leaving yourself vulnerable. That's spacing. And I repeat, why take damage at all when you can PS or dodge it? It'll reset the spacing, and its back at a neutral stance again.
MaTA
Smash Ace
thanks for explaining what spacing is, why not space good and kill. and if your going to take the damage then why not if its going to help you even if you take some damage. So if your up by a lot and they are close to dying you'll be scared of taking little damage? You should know how good you are and playing, that shouldn't matter.
You are not gonna run out the clock on sheik with ivysaur. I love Ivz to death but between needles and our speed that just isn't happening.
