Should Metaknight be Banned? Take 3

SamuraiPanda · Apr 19, 2009

This is the third poll we're doing now on this issue. The problem has resurfaced due to the results in a few large tournaments (see the debate over WHOBO here: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230309 ). The first poll in October ended up as 1,271 (54%) for the ban to 1,083 (46%) against the ban. The second poll in November ended up as 918 (55.45%) for the ban to 738 (44.57%) against the ban. It has been around 5 months since the last poll. An entire year has passed since the games release. Now, with much more informed opinions and data to work off of, should MK be banned?

Also, I've decided to add a third option, "not sure," to the poll. We'll see how it works out.

Man of Popsicle · Apr 19, 2009

I don't think so.
Maybe a temp ban to allow other characters metagames to catch up, but it seems a little outlandish.

ssbbFICTION · Apr 19, 2009

lol

lol

IxxI · Apr 19, 2009

No, I think people are slowly starting to find their way around Metaknight. I don't think however, that he will ever leave the top of the tier list. Not until something revolutionary is found in Brawl at least.

Zankoku · Apr 19, 2009

I'm voting Yes! As in Yes, we totally need more new polls!

SamuraiPanda · Apr 19, 2009

I'm voting Yes! As in Yes, we totally need more sarcastic posts!

pure_awesome · Apr 19, 2009

No.

He's not broken and we're seeing more and more players beating them. His amazing tourney results are just as much a result of the players controlling him and how much they've advanced his metagame already as they are his inherent character traits.

I would be interested in knowing how many people who vote on these polls actually go to tournaments.

If anything, we should be doing a poll on whether or not M2K needs to be banned. The game is becoming that you either play as M2K, or you lose. He's completely overcentralizing the metagame.

XienZo · Apr 19, 2009

Ffffffffff, I'm the second person to vote?

Anyhow, I don't think that the vote % will change much from the previous two times. I think that the only difference is going to be the various arguments within the topic.

Mr.-0 · Apr 19, 2009

Only so that M2K is dethroned.

Zankoku · Apr 19, 2009

SamuraiPanda said:
I'm voting Yes! As in Yes, we totally need more sarcastic posts!

Steel_Samurai · Apr 19, 2009

I voted not sure
I mean I don't think he's broken or can't be beaten or anything
But then again he breaks the CP system and there would be more character diversity without him around

Collective of Bears · Apr 19, 2009

I said no. While I do think MK is ungodly broken, I think he's not so difficult that he can't be beat. MK has strengths and weaknesses, just like any other character. And the simple fact of playing against MK is that you need to exploit them, just like in any other matchup. Get over yourselves, MK is not a boss.

SSJ5Goku8932 · Apr 19, 2009

I say we should not ban him, unless the WHOBO incident soon becomes the average tourney.

Master Raven · Apr 19, 2009

I'll wait for Apex and Genesis results first. If they wind up being just like Whobo's, then I'll swing pro-ban.

Kit Cal-N · Apr 19, 2009

He's the hands-down best character. There's no other reason to pick any other character other than personal preference.
Winners pick MK. MK wins tournaments.

I'm not saying he's broken or unbeatable, but there's not going to be any advancement in the game other than more Metaknight.

Ban or temporarily ban.

pure_awesome · Apr 19, 2009

One of the main reasons Metaknight is as strong as he is right now is because the counterpicking system we use doesn't fit Brawl as well as it did Melee.

Metaknight isn't unbeatable on his own, but Metaknight on Rainbow Cruise is **** near close.

Once we fix the CP system to prevent these ungodly character/stage combinations, we'll be fine.

~ Gheb ~ · Apr 19, 2009

Meta Knight shouldn't be banned. Even though he's so much more envolved than any othe character it's still the contributions of individual players like Mew2King and Dojo in particular that make Meta Knight seem so overly dominant. Players like Atomsk, ADHD, Anther and Ally have shown that individual class and skill is still more important than character match-up's, which are horribly overrated and don't even apply to 80% of the players (That's why Atomsk thinks that MK vs D3 is 5/5 and LeePuff says the same about G&W vs MK).

At this point MK is the most envolved and thus best character in the game. That's why many good (and also bad) players decide to main him giving him better rankings than any other character. If these player all would play Snake he'd be a lot more dominant.

Edit: I didn't vote yet but I will vote "No" later. I first wanna be able to see some results.

FlatSoda · Apr 19, 2009

I'm going to spill my heart out, and probably not reply after this.

My reasons for this is because I'm expecting a lot of people to come in, vote, and begin discussing/arguing/flaming. Not my sort of thing.

It's up to any poster to actually read my post/discuss and pass on the Idea. I don't make anything run, but we all do as a whole.

Getting on to the topic at hand.
Personally, I play Meta Knight and I don't think he's all that bad. Has a few matchups that are even (In my opinion). But I think if Meta Knight were to be banned, there'd definitely be some changes in the tournament scene. I wouldn't say a permanent ban, but I'd kind of aim for a Seasonal Ban. Y'Know...Like banning him for a 4 month period of time. The SBR suggested ruleset are probably going to be changing ever so often to. And don't forget about the Tier list. It keeps things fresh and new each time, and perhaps maybe we won't see the same faces winning top 3 anymore. But if they're that great of a player, we'll see them making top again.

Anyway, my vote is yes.

To restate everything, it'll add a flare to tournament scene, and all that good stuff.
But he shouldn't be banned forever.

Master Raven · Apr 19, 2009

Atomsk thinks DDD vs MK is even?

~ Gheb ~ · Apr 19, 2009

Master Raven said:
Atomsk thinks DDD vs MK is even?

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7177835&postcount=940

Xyro77 · Apr 19, 2009

SSJ5Goku8932 said:
I say we should not ban him, unless the WHOBO incident soon becomes the average tourney.

it is.

Cot4
Hobo 11
World HOBO

Its FLAT OUT CLEAR he needs to go!!!

ZERO bad stages
ZERO bad match-ups
Dominates MOST medium-large scale events
5 jumps+glide
4 recovery options(all B moves)
ABSOLUTE AWESOME priority
Fastest down smash in the game(correct me if im wrong) which has good KO power
AMAZING ground dodge
Most of his attacks come out fast and end fast
Nearly EVERYBODY has him as a main or 2nd or falls back on him when losing. notice the increased meta dittos in the top 10 placings.
2-3 frame u-air that can be comboed into tornado or UP+B for low as gimp kills
tilt locks
wall tilt locks
Invincibility on his UP+B(while on ground)
DECIMATES over half the cast
Tornado that eats thru ALL shields(if they are slightly weakened)
A ledge stalling tech that is UN-PUNISHABLE if done right( i have serveral quotes from m2k on this)
And theres more im not even remembering right now.

AlphaZealot · Apr 19, 2009

He's the hands-down best character. There's no other reason to pick any other character other than personal preference.

False. If you are playing to win, there is no reason to choose MK versus Diddy/Snake/Olimar/others because you have BETTER choices.

As per Whobo, let me know how many names you find on the list after the top 8 that are recognizable as top out of state competition. MK was represented in full force. Every other character was missing their best and usually second best player of that character (ADHD's Diddy, Fictions Wario, Ally's Snake, who if all three were in attendance I would bet all three would likewise place in the top 6).

Eddie G · Apr 19, 2009

I've kept up with this topic long enough to make a well informed vote. After careful consideration, my vote has gone from no, to not sure, to yes. (This is over time, mind you)

Mr.-0 · Apr 19, 2009

pure_awesome said:
One of the main reasons Metaknight is as strong as he is right now is because the counterpicking system we use doesn't fit Brawl as well as it did Melee.

Metaknight isn't unbeatable on his own, but Metaknight on Rainbow Cruise is **** near close.

Once we fix the CP system to prevent these ungodly character/stage combinations, we'll be fine.

what other godly stage character stage combinations are there. ( i'm thinking about making a threadf on this... )

Falconv1.0 · Apr 19, 2009

Man of Popsicle said:
I don't think so.
Maybe a temp ban to allow other characters metagames to catch up, but it seems a little outlandish.

Posts stating that if he is temporarily banned everyone's metagame will suddenly catch up to his is a lil ****ing outlandish as well.

MetalMusicMan · Apr 19, 2009

There is no reason to ban Metaknight, it's ridiculous that we are still even talking about it. My god, the johns.

He is not unbeatable.

He is not a god.

If he is banned, Snake / DeDeDe / Falco / GnW are going to get just as many complaints eventually. You give people an inch and they will take a mile. Then we will ban them, or aspects of them. It will just create a chain reaction.

My god, we are already having tournaments ban DeDeDe standing infinites. Next they will ban MK all together? This is just getting ****ing ********. None of this should even be considered to begin with.

Not only is there no reason to ban MK to begin with, but banning him will cause a far worse shockwave than those who are pro-ban propose that he is causing by being legal.

MK's metagame is far more evolved than the other characters because of who mains him, and also because people would rather complain about him than learn effective strats. All any of the arguments against MK consist of is circular logic nonsense.

pure_awesome · Apr 19, 2009

Xyro77 said:
Its FLAT OUT CLEAR he needs to go!!!

ZERO bad stages
ZERO bad match-ups
Dominates MOST medium-large scale events
5 jumps+glide
4 recovery options(all B moves)
ABSOLUTE AWESOME priority
Fastest down smash in the game(correct me if im wrong) which has good KO power
AMAZING ground dodge
Most of his attacks come out fast and end fast
Nearly EVERYBODY has him as a main or 2nd or falls back on him when losing. notice the increased meta dittos in the top 10 placings.
2-3 frame u-air that can be comboed into tornado or UP+B for low as gimp kills
tilt locks
wall tilt locks
Invincibility on his UP+B(while on ground)
DECIMATES over half the cast
Tornado that eats thru ALL shields(if they are slightly weakened)
A ledge stalling tech that is UN-PUNISHABLE if done right( i have serveral quotes from m2k on this)
And theres more im not even remembering right now.

But if he's so great, then why do we have the top level players of other characters calling the match-up 50/50? I've heard very high caliber players call it even with Snake, Falco, DDD, Diddy, and probably more I can't remember. He's obviously the best and he's a very safe character but that's by no means ban-worthy. He doesn't have major advantages over other top tiers, he's just safe.

NickRiddle · Apr 19, 2009

If MK is banned, the good characters will be boring.

Sky` · Apr 19, 2009

AlphaZealot said:
False. If you are playing to win, there is no reason to choose MK versus Diddy/Snake/Olimar/others because you have BETTER choices.

As per Whobo, let me know how many names you find on the list after the top 8 that are recognizable as top out of state competition. MK was represented in full force. Every other character was missing their best and usually second best player of that character (ADHD's Diddy, Fictions Wario, Ally's Snake, who if all three were in attendance I would bet all three would likewise place in the top 6).

Whobo is a horrid example of MK ownage. When you have the best players go there who happen to main MK, you're going to have MK in the top spots. Replace every Ranked MK player with a Ranked Peach player. We would have taken top Five. Does this now mean that Peach should be banned?

If we had other people like ADHD or Fiction/DEHF go to WHOBO, I'm sure things would have been somewhat different.

Suspect · Apr 19, 2009

it's not like this poll will have any effect.

Falconv1.0 · Apr 19, 2009

If this thread goes on much longer I'm going to go out and find and quote every pro who has made an argument as to why MK's dominance is not that bad in top level play and how horribly skewed the results are with MK by player's names.

Renegade TX2000 · Apr 19, 2009

mk is the only thing slowing down my ike metagame... kinda lame when i have to pick mk myself just to deal with the guy, not even my snake can keep up with mk's anymore just annoying if mk plays a perfect game your not touching him with snake i mean look at the ally vs m2k match up LOL, i just go mirror mk's and hope i'm the better mk. m2k just wants that cash and to keep mk from being unbanned cause i'd do the same if someone was messing with my main from me making all the cash i'd do whatever it took from not getting him banned making up excuses like... "mk has weaknesses/wario/snake/marth is like 40/60 but he can still "win" lol gtfo with that **** i'm about to be forced to main mk in a sec if this crap keeps holding out. cause mk is like the only top tier in any fighting game I'VE played that doesn't have a single **** weakness and that's just ridiculous. well that's my complaint but mk is starting to just aggervate me it takes an average ike/marth just to take down a new started fresh mk. and one of the top ikes just to take down a below average mk... and mk is THE Only guy that's doing this LOL atleast i go 50/50 with Great d3's and great snakes... but mk? it's mk, even m2k knows that don't act stupid with me...

Rog~er · Apr 19, 2009

Meta Knight's WILL be outplayed someday...

Al Snow · Apr 19, 2009

No. Play harder.

BurningCrusader777 · Apr 19, 2009

I chose yes, in favor of a temp ban.

MK has developed more than any other character; this is in part due to his myriad options, but also because many of the nation's top players (M2K, DSF, Dojo for example...) are maining him and pushing him forward. With the temp ban, I'm willing to bet that everyone else will have more growth. In the mean time, this doesn't effect practicing the MK matchup since the MK metagame stays stagnant.

If the temp ban doesn't help, well, I'm not sure how to proceed from there. An outright ban doesn't seem warranted since he does have some neutrals (or around the area of that), and IIRC none of his relevant matchups (vs. anyone C Tier and above, I would say.) are worse than 65-35 in his favor.

Just an opinion from a slightly less informed guy. If I'm wrong, tell me... I'd like some more insight on this.

GodAtHand · Apr 19, 2009

My vote went from No, to not sure this time...

Why? I simply don't like the fact that EVERYONE (besides a select few) uses him as a main or secondary. Honestly for the sake of the competitive smash scene he might need to banned. Everyone is not just gonna watch metaknights fight it out at every tourney because its boring, and whether you believe me or not some people go to tournaments for fun. And when someone who does not want to play meta is left in a world that is meta-only, he leaves.

TheJerm · Apr 19, 2009

I'm usually against the ban. But this time I put not sure. I dont really care actually, but if it'll make more people happy, then I guess ban him?

AllyKnight · Apr 19, 2009

My vote will be not sure for now. If after Apex and Genesis, MKs are still TOO dominant, I will prob change my mind to yes. It is sad how MK doesn't take as muchtime to be good than most characters.

PhantomX · Apr 19, 2009

I want him to go because he's overcentralizing the metagame.

Falconv1.0 · Apr 19, 2009

I'll say this one more time.

Anyone who thinks MK is some kind of force that makes their characters meta game develop slower has NO IDEA what the bloody hell they are talking about. It's ****ing ridiculous, you're character ****ing sucks, dont just blame one character. You see any top level low-mid tier players claiming that their character is under developed due to MK? No, you dont, no you ****ing dont.

Wanna guess why?

*head desk

Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***

Should Metaknight be banned?

Yes

No

Not Sure

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Fence

Never Knows Best

Smash Hero

Smash Lord

Smash Lord

Smash Ace

Never Knows Best

Smash Journeyman

King of Hug Style

Smash Lord

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Lord

Life is just a party

Smash Champion

Smash Master

Life is just a party

Unity Ruleset Committee Member

Former Smashboards Owner

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Master

Sleepwalk our lives away.

Smash Lord

#negativeNick

Smash Lord

Smash Hero

Smash Master

Smash Ace

Smash Apprentice

Smash Rookie

Smash Journeyman

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Banned via Administration

WarioMan

Smash Master

Information

Network

Should Metaknight be Banned? Take 3