If you have been reading this board you would have known that people are waiting for the results of apex and genesis. Also this has been an on going matter, and its just a poll
you and nike to lurk moar >_>
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Should Metaknight be Banned? ***Take 3***
- Thread starter SamuraiPanda
- Start date
- Status
you and nike to lurk moar >_>
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Shoe me your comprehensive list of all the metaknight mains in every state and perhaps I will believe you.
I actually meant that as a question anyways... my b.
Dekar173
Justice Man
KOS-MOS, Bwett, Xyro, Espy, and 3000 would each individually wreck you, I'm quite certain.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
You seriously want me to list every mk in every ****ing state to prove that other people place with other characters.
Are you ****ing kidding me?
@Dekar-Ok. Cool. Never said the players were bad did I? Read my post before you decide to call me out. Samus is bad, Mk isn't the reason why, dont even try that **** with me. Along with those other characters I dont care about.
Revven
FrankerZ
Even though this was a biweekly, I thought I'd bring it to this thread anyway: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=230684
Look at the Brawl singles results, such lulz.
Look at the Brawl singles results, such lulz.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
It would be appreciated lol.
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
You're asking way to much for proof of something that is known by people actually lololololol track tourney results.
Lurk moar and stop asking/saying stupid things.
IxxI
Smash Fence
Wow, that's sad. Boss is too good.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
His dominance is only gaining, not fading as we had anticipated last poll.
I voted no last poll.
I voted yes this one.
And Chu's tournaments do matter.
I voted no last poll.
I voted yes this one.
And Chu's tournaments do matter.
cutter
Smash Champion
I voted no, but if in the future (like well after Apex, Genesis and a few other national tournaments after that) MK continues to exert his influence over the metagame, he could warrant a ban. Right now though, he doesn't.
The problem is that MK sits on the threshold between "too good" and "broken". It's just like Garchomp in Pokemon, or Tarmogoyf in MTG.
The problem is that MK sits on the threshold between "too good" and "broken". It's just like Garchomp in Pokemon, or Tarmogoyf in MTG.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
@Everyone posting, "MK has no bad match-ups! They're 50:50 at best!"
1) Those match-up numbers are suggestive numbers
2) I'm almost certain that most people who say that don't main all of the characters who MK is questionable with, so there's no way that they know the actual match-up for each of them instead of just the questionable number.
3) Even if at best, each of them were 50:50, 50:50 still means it's a winnable match-up. Very winnable. AKA not banworthy.
Now lets see.
MK has no bad stages! Well, Snake, Wario, and Diddy also have no bad stages (when people say Diddy is bad on Norfair and RC I kind of lol). Should we ban them too?
MK has no bad match-ups! I already kind of covered this point. Plus, Snake and Wario only have 1-2 match-ups that are 55:45 or 60:40. Arguably, MK has those match-ups too.
MK over-centralizes the metagame! How, exactly? All you have to do is learn the match-up well, and you're set. You don't see character boards with each thread being, "Zomg MKs Dtilt, how do we beat it?!?"
MK places well at top tourneys! So far I've only seen one with any concern in it, and that's HOBO11 (and apparently those results are kind of skewed too because some people only used MK for one match-up, and apparently Hylian didn't use MK at all and it was placed by his name).
Cot4 had an MK (M2K, who by the way is easily the best at this game), a Snake, an MK, MK, and Diddy. That isn't bad. WHOBO results were skewed because again, we have M2K, the best at the game, three other people in the top who used MK only a couple of games, and generally most pro MKs came to this, but not pros of other characters like Anther, Ally, ADHD, and NL who would have all placed considerably well.
This might change when Genesis comes along and we look at the placements there. If like top 8 are all straight MK, yeah, that's going to be valid concern. However, I highly doubt that, and you can't ban something for a just in-case thing.
If we ban MK, then there will be more character diversity! This is obvious. If you ban ANY character, the mains of that character all have to switch to someone else, which means more diversity in tournaments. However, more diversity isn't a valid excuse to ban something. In most other competitive games, you'll realize that in top tourneys, you'll generally see the top 3 characters placing.
There is no true reason to ban MK at this point. He's beatable, and the match-ups are debatable and subjective. The fact that he has even close match-ups means that he's not even broken. He generally wins tournaments (except in the Midwest, lol), but he doesn't completely dominate them. He doesn't overcentralize the metagame.
I don't see the reason for banning MK other than, "I want it easier for my character to place well!" which is just a completely inane reason. You don't ban things to make it easier.
1) Those match-up numbers are suggestive numbers
2) I'm almost certain that most people who say that don't main all of the characters who MK is questionable with, so there's no way that they know the actual match-up for each of them instead of just the questionable number.
3) Even if at best, each of them were 50:50, 50:50 still means it's a winnable match-up. Very winnable. AKA not banworthy.
Now lets see.
MK has no bad stages! Well, Snake, Wario, and Diddy also have no bad stages (when people say Diddy is bad on Norfair and RC I kind of lol). Should we ban them too?
MK has no bad match-ups! I already kind of covered this point. Plus, Snake and Wario only have 1-2 match-ups that are 55:45 or 60:40. Arguably, MK has those match-ups too.
MK over-centralizes the metagame! How, exactly? All you have to do is learn the match-up well, and you're set. You don't see character boards with each thread being, "Zomg MKs Dtilt, how do we beat it?!?"
MK places well at top tourneys! So far I've only seen one with any concern in it, and that's HOBO11 (and apparently those results are kind of skewed too because some people only used MK for one match-up, and apparently Hylian didn't use MK at all and it was placed by his name).
Cot4 had an MK (M2K, who by the way is easily the best at this game), a Snake, an MK, MK, and Diddy. That isn't bad. WHOBO results were skewed because again, we have M2K, the best at the game, three other people in the top who used MK only a couple of games, and generally most pro MKs came to this, but not pros of other characters like Anther, Ally, ADHD, and NL who would have all placed considerably well.
This might change when Genesis comes along and we look at the placements there. If like top 8 are all straight MK, yeah, that's going to be valid concern. However, I highly doubt that, and you can't ban something for a just in-case thing.
If we ban MK, then there will be more character diversity! This is obvious. If you ban ANY character, the mains of that character all have to switch to someone else, which means more diversity in tournaments. However, more diversity isn't a valid excuse to ban something. In most other competitive games, you'll realize that in top tourneys, you'll generally see the top 3 characters placing.
There is no true reason to ban MK at this point. He's beatable, and the match-ups are debatable and subjective. The fact that he has even close match-ups means that he's not even broken. He generally wins tournaments (except in the Midwest, lol), but he doesn't completely dominate them. He doesn't overcentralize the metagame.
I don't see the reason for banning MK other than, "I want it easier for my character to place well!" which is just a completely inane reason. You don't ban things to make it easier.
D
Deleted member
Guest
It seems that almost everyone plays MK as a main or secondary. It's just annoying to see such sheer dominance by one character! In Melee, there were broken characters, but the thing is, back then, there was a small handful of elite characters, so one wasn't completely dominant. The gap between MK and the rest is very large. He has his own ****ing tier! Therefore, I voted yes, as I have in all of them.
Lord Viper
SS Rank
☆ People still want's to ban Meta Knight?!? I don't know what to say but Meta Knight is not much of a big deal to me because I play VS him a lot. ☆
Falconv1.0
Smash Master
There are characters that go even or only have a slight disadvantage vs MK. You see in like any other fighting game that alone would mean anyone left arguing that he should be banned is a scrub. But oh no, not in Brawl, apparently it's about being interesting. As if something will seriously change player win wise.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
I watch Florida's Gigabits on stream everytime. And I saw no where near as many Metaknights as in WHOBO.
WHOBO- 140
Gigabits- 140
Same size, attendence from all throughout the state of Florida, one of the biggest smash communities there is.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=228582
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=219823&highlight=Gigabits
1. CO18(Dedede)
2. Hungrybox(Dedede)
3. seibrik(Mk/Dedede)
4. Afro (Wario/Snake/Kirby)
5. Lambchopz(Snake)
5. Petey (Metaknight)
7. Redhalberd (Metaknight/Falco/Snake)
7. Polmex (Luigi/Snake)
9. xYz (GaW)
9. SheerMadness(Kirby)
9. Galuuda (IC's)
9. Colbol (Metaknight)
1. Seibrik (Metaknight)
2. CO18 (DDD/Wario)
3. TheReflexWonder (Pokemon Trainer/Wario/Lucas)
4. Hungrybox (DDD)
5. Gmoney (Wario)
5. Petey (MK)
7. Lambchops (Snake)
7. Nick Riddle (ZSS)
9. GDX (Diddy Kong)
9. Biglou (Luigi)
9. SheerMadness (Kirby)
9. Mero (MK)
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
hobo 11
cot4
world hobo
and many other smller scale events. hes only getting more powerful
hmm thats odd cause i notice ALOT of top players say at first they should keep him and now he needs to go and the top players who MAIN metaknight say hes fine......i wonder why?
please do cause i can quadruple your quote finds with other tip top players who says he needs to go. theres a reason.
and people like you only make banning metaknight come closer than ever before.
Its FLAT OUT CLEAR he needs to go!!!
ZERO bad stages
ZERO bad match-ups
Dominates MOST medium-large scale events
5 jumps+glide
4 recovery options(all B moves)
ABSOLUTE AWESOME priority
Fastest down smash in the game(correct me if im wrong) which has good KO power
AMAZING ground dodge
Most of his attacks come out fast and end fast
Nearly EVERYBODY has him as a main or 2nd or falls back on him when losing. notice the increased meta dittos in the top 10 placings.
2-3 frame u-air that can be comboed into tornado or UP+B for low as gimp kills
tilt locks
wall tilt locks
Invincibility on his UP+B(while on ground)
DECIMATES over half the cast
Tornado that eats thru ALL shields(if they are slightly weakened)
A ledge stalling tech that is UN-PUNISHABLE if done right( i have serveral quotes from m2k on this)
And theres more im not even remembering right now.
NO OTHER CHARACTER iS THIS GOOD!!!!!!
The ones in other states don't matter with respect to this argument Sky. Notice I didn't say outright that they were the best. I said arguably, and then I mentioned TOPs, not end-all-be-alls.
And GHEB's list is silly.
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
Another problem is that if the so called "scrubs" aren't having a good time playing the game they move on to something else and slowly smash loses its appeal on a massive scale.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Lol learn to read.
Everyone went MK for the lulz. This tournament shouldn't count as "WOMG MK IS DOMINATING"
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
Snake love Rainbow Cruise, There is nothing that he likes more than leaving all of traps being left behind and having nade camping taken away.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
The idea of banning him for a period of time or something is utterly stupid. What would be the point of that? If any of you say "metagame", I will e-cut you.
Somebody's bitter not being mentioned
But no it's not silly at all. They're based on facts aka tourney results
Any action taken to ban Meta knight in tournaments will be a good action. It will bring some variety into the characters chosen by the majority of participants and the winners of tourney. MK is broken unlike fox in melee, he MUST be banned at some point unless other characters' metagames pick up.
@Avarice Over-centralizing means there is a huge bias in favor of using one particular character or whatever in comparison to the others. That's what over-centralization with respect to Metaknight means. Everyone is starting to use him either as an outright main or as an alternate either b/c their characters get wrecked by him on certain stages, or wrecked by him in general.
I'm arguing for MK ban and I have no problem beating most MKs with Wario, b/c it's one of the most even matchups, and I know that his ban will bring in more D3s and Marths, who are some of Wario's worst.
And GHEB, your list is silly b/c Spamerer played Wario once, and it was Loser's Finals only, and he camped for farts. That's not a top player with a character, that's a good player picking up a character b/c he thinks it will help. Learn the difference. Candy got wrecked by Santi, who can't beat Razer, who often loses to Gnes (lost at WHOBO by getting planked by a Metaknight).
I'm arguing for MK ban and I have no problem beating most MKs with Wario, b/c it's one of the most even matchups, and I know that his ban will bring in more D3s and Marths, who are some of Wario's worst.
And GHEB, your list is silly b/c Spamerer played Wario once, and it was Loser's Finals only, and he camped for farts. That's not a top player with a character, that's a good player picking up a character b/c he thinks it will help. Learn the difference. Candy got wrecked by Santi, who can't beat Razer, who often loses to Gnes (lost at WHOBO by getting planked by a Metaknight).
He's extremely broken, MetaKnight completely dwarfs every other character in the game, preventing them from their true potential being discovered.
We will have more variety with the ban of MetaKnight, a chance for talented players who main other characters to show their skill, and get good placings they deserve.
Now, what about the MetaKnight mainers? I don't think they'll like their character getting banned, and forced to pick up and learn a completely different character. So, we could say "tough luck"... or we could impose some sort of disadvantage over MetaKnight, maybe a lower handicap level?
Just suggestions. A temporary ban would be a good decision, just to see the results and metagame of the other characters without MetaKnight being used.
We will have more variety with the ban of MetaKnight, a chance for talented players who main other characters to show their skill, and get good placings they deserve.
Now, what about the MetaKnight mainers? I don't think they'll like their character getting banned, and forced to pick up and learn a completely different character. So, we could say "tough luck"... or we could impose some sort of disadvantage over MetaKnight, maybe a lower handicap level?
Just suggestions. A temporary ban would be a good decision, just to see the results and metagame of the other characters without MetaKnight being used.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
To see if the results would be worth wild, and if the game might just revolve around Snake or Falco and not a larger cast of charecters.
Yeah, that was my point, that we have many Metaknights, but no where near as many as Texas, to give an example.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
So wouldn't most Snakes ban RC with their one stage ban? Snake now has no bad stages. Along with Wario and Diddy.
Xyro77
Unity Ruleset Committee Member
snake also does bad on norfair. no snake dash and way to much space to get nade damage in.
Eddie G
Smash Hero
Oh how I wish Pokefloats were in this game.
AvaricePanda
Smash Lord
Wait what? Your post is full of vague, baseless statements.
Please elaborate how MK dwarfs every other character in the game, even though he has quite a few arguably even or better in the others favor matchups, and he's not the worst match-up for quite a bit of the lower-tiered characters?
One character doesn't stop a characters potential. That just seemed like a random statement. Sheik can't suddenly do worse because of MK. A character's metagame can still advance fine despite one character...then they just have that match-up to worry about. A 30:70 match-up doesn't make a character's potential killed.
Again, more variety doesn't make a good argument for banning a character. And the way you're saying, "Let a chance for other talented players to show their skill with other characters," makes it sound like you're writing off the skill of MK mainers who place well.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
If you watched WHOBO, you would have seen Co18, the only top person not to use metaknight, a Dededee of all things(someone who is all about match ups and almost cries for a secondary), and he lost to Lee. He ***** him first round, then he switched to Metaknight, and one the last round by 2% on a time out.
What a horrible argument. Teh_spamerer two-stocked Ally, something only m2k can otherwise do. Does it really matter whether Wario is his main character or not? His Wario is at least the second best in the world. You can't say he doesn't count just because he plays other characters too.
It's like saying Azen isn't the best Peach because he mains Lucario.
50:50 is his worst matchup?
Yeah, but when ****ing everybody is using MetaKnight, it hinders Brawl's metagame. You seem to think I support the ban of MetaKnight, I'm neutral. I stated he's broken and such, but I'm only pointing out the obvious everybody should already know. He's not unbeatable, but MetaKnight does indeed dwarf every other character, even Snake. He's not doubling in points anymore, but he's still ****** everything in sight, basically.
If only MetaKnight wasn't so broken in every way possible maybe we could say they actually have skill!!1
To be blunt, crappy MK players outplace good low tier players all the time.
And a lot of characters would do better with no MK, Ike and Marth for example. Marth doesn't place almost only because of MK in general.....
This is usually the case, and is what I was trying to state in my first post.
Brinzy
Godfather of the Crimean Mafia
What sounds more sensible to you: developing the metagame of the cast, or developing the metagame of (cast - 1)?
Then what will you do when the metagame "catches up"? Let him back in tournaments? Why? His absence will end up causing a recession in part of the metagame, thus defeating the whole purpose of you getting rid of Metaknight in the first place.
See, you can't ban him to let others "catch up." Not only does it not make sense because of how returning would mean the other characters would be at a lower potential against him (since there were none to practice against), but his presence never stunts their metagame growth in the first place.
Master Raven
Smash Master
Are you seriously undermining the skill of MK mains? Don't make me laugh, especially when you have people like Dojo and M2K who are capable of doing just fine with other characters. We would also expect to see random MKs taking up a large portion of the top 10 every tourney.
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